BA Wetlease

[cessnapete]

I see BA SH have quite a number of wet lease Aircraft operating. Titan 320/757 PrivateAir 737 and various E170 Cityflyer and other Companies. Is this an aircraft shortage or Pilot shortage in BA, or both??

[Porky Speedpig]

I see BA SH have quite a number of wet lease Aircraft operating. Titan 320/757 PrivateAir 737 and various E170 Cityflyer and other Companies. Is this an aircraft shortage or Pilot shortage in BA, or both??

The shorthaul leases are due to the acquisition of slots from Monarch at LGW. Impossible to ramp up aircraft and crew resources that quickly but needed to operate slots under 80/20 rules hence wet leases.
Qatar and shortly Air Belgium leases on long haul due to 787 aircraft grounded (5 at the moment I think) due to Rolls Royce Trent engine issues and subsequent operating restrictions enforced.

[TURIN]

The Cityflyer E170s are being utilised over the weekends on regional operations instead of sitting idle.

[wiggy]

Is this an aircraft shortage or Pilot shortage in BA, or both??

It's a bit of everything, as has been said Monarch slots, 787 engines, and at the risk of being controversial I'd suggest that there is just perhaps a hint :oh:of under establishment in previous years finally catching up with the operation.

[CSman]

Mistake by BA management, they Should have bought Monarch last year,No need for Level,,Crews that want to be based in Gatwick,Some of the very best in engineering in their M/t set up Flying standards some of the best in the industry CSman BA 747 retired

[gcal]

I've just flown as a pax on a Titan 737-400 which was an ex BA aircraft and I have to say the service was excellent, the leg room good and the you get a complimentary drink and a decent sandwich (none of this Marks and Sparks twaddle) It felt like being on a British airline if you can understand that and had an identity in that Monarch kind of way.

[mcdhu]

Made the mistake of booking BA shorthaul J operated by Titan - not good.
mcdhu

[msbbarratt]

Mistake by BA management, they Should have bought Monarch last year,No need for Level,,Crews that want to be based in Gatwick,Some of the very best in engineering in their M/t set up Flying standards some of the best in the industry CSman BA 747 retired




Maybe, but acquiring Monarch whole would probably have meant taking on the debt too. It makes more commercial sense to let it collapse altogether and pick up the worthwhile bits / personnel you want on the open market at knock down prices and avoid bailing out their creditors.

If the business as a whole had been worth acquiring it would likely not have been close enough to financial collapse to actually go bust.

It's all very cold hearted, but at the end of the day money going into someone else's creditors pocket is money not going into your own staff's pay packets, etc.

[Magplug]

Is this an aircraft shortage or Pilot shortage in BA, or both??
They need both and they need them.... yesterday. The word is that the recruiters want to get moving and get offers out to the candidates already interviewed so they can tender their 3 months notice to current employers, but the bean-counters won't approve the expenditure in this years' budget so no offers going out until Jan 2019.

[thetimesreader84]

If the business as a whole had been worth acquiring it would likely not have been close enough to financial collapse to actually go bust.

Of course, it also helps if the owners don’t load the company up with debt (£200 million in the last set of accounts alone). But perhaps that’s for another thread.

FWIW, I’ve heard no more DEP this side of Christmas, and no plans to extend the wet leases into winter or next year. Not that I’m party to any special information - just galley FM.

[RexBanner]

They need both and they need them.... yesterday. The word is that the recruiters want to get moving and get offers out to the candidates already interviewed so they can tender their 3 months notice to current employers, but the bean-counters won't approve the expenditure in this years' budget so no offers going out until Jan 2019.

Back when I applied/joined I received my offer in November to start in March, so what’s the problem? A financial year thing?

[wiggy]

Highly unlikely I know but maybe the slightly controversial subject known as “extraordinary measures” (basically leave buy back) has been a roaring success and has temporarily stemmed the demand for DEPs , .:ugh::ugh:

Hope no one who participates in that little gem starts wailing later on in the year that they are fatigued.

(yes, grumpy side of the bed this AM)

[Dave Gittins]

Surprised to hear that mcdhu (#7). We were on a Titan A320 from LGW to AGP in April. Free drinks, free snack, IFE via Titan wi-fi (needed your own iPad mind you) and the cabin crew were actually cheerful.

[Magplug]

Back when I applied/joined I received my offer in November to start in March, so what’s the problem? A financial year thing?
Exactly so.... The wishes of the accountants can create havoc at the coal-face in any big corporation. BA is going to be short of pilots going well into next year and the fact that the package and prospects are nowhere near the gold plated reward of 10-15 years ago is putting a lot of guys off. If you have been working for a LoCo for 3-5 years and already have a command then jumping ship to become pilot number 4500 and work like a dog every month is not so appealing.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Exactly so.... The wishes of the accountants can create havoc at the coal-face in any big corporation. BA is going to be short of pilots going well into next year and the fact that the package and prospects are nowhere near the gold plated reward of 10-15 years ago is putting a lot of guys off. If you have been working for a LoCo for 3-5 years and already have a command then jumping ship to become pilot number 4500 and work like a dog every month is not so appealing.
Magplug
I've worked for 10 Airlines and the bean counters have never ever come near recruitment in any of them. What planet are you on - It could be something as simple offer November - take a few weeks to sign contract - give 3 months and hey ho when do you start....

[Juan Tugoh]

Magplug
I've worked for 10 Airlines and the bean counters have never ever come near recruitment in any of them. What planet are you on - It could be something as simple offer November - take a few weeks to sign contract - give 3 months and hey ho when do you start....

A moments quiet thought will lead you to the more simple and rational answer. BA is retiring the last few 767s it has and all the courses for NOV and DEC are full of internal pilots doing their conversion courses to new types. That is why there are no immediate places for those months. But hey, don’t let a few facts get in the way of your rants.

[cessnapete]

Just seen an initial précis of the soon to be introduced new BA rostering system. Surprised this was BALPA approved, won’t do much for recruitment! Although not the final plan, it appears to go from a Seniority based system, to near Blindlines for all!!

[wiggy]

Possibly a bit of thread drift but the change in rostering system is a long story, discussed a little bit on the DEP thread, discussed..sorry, argued about, at length on the in-house BALPA forum.

We were told traditional Bidline had to go (allegedly...imminent loss of IT support being one reason quoted)...in truth the system had already very much evolved from the version of old and often not in a good way. The new options were a revamped, much simpler, much more restricted version of Bidline or a system called “Jeppessen Strict Seniority” or “JSS”. The BALPA headshed recommended JSS, there was a vote..with strings to other T&C factors attached..and JSS won the day.

As for recruiting ..well anyone joining thinking they are going to enjoy the BA “Bidline” lifestyle of old will be very dissappointed...IMHO..

[zero/zero]

Slightly off topic again but I know of Airbus DEPs starting in December, so not sure there’s any sort of financial recruitment ban. The 767 retraining theory sounds more plausible

[WHBM]

BA has long wet-leased aircraft in as required to meet capacity shortfalls, for all sorts of reasons, from fleet issues to increases in demand beyond the normal fleet planning process. I recall back in the late 1970s Britannia Airways 737s at Heathrow (otherwise quite unknown there) which were covering yet another fleet issue on the Tridents.

Anyone remember the N-registered American Trans Air 727, with minimal BA titles, on London-Glasgow ?
Surprised to hear that mcdhu (#7). We were on a Titan A320 from LGW to AGP in April.We, too, were on a Titan sub earlier in the year, which I quite looked forward to having heard other accounts, and although a 767 sub for a 737-800 load gave plenty of space, the crew all round were distinctly underwhelming.

[rog747]

BA has long wet-leased aircraft in as required to meet capacity shortfalls, for all sorts of reasons, from fleet issues to increases in demand beyond the normal fleet planning process. I recall back in the late 1970s Britannia Airways 737s at Heathrow (otherwise quite unknown there) which were covering yet another fleet issue on the Tridents.

Anyone remember the N-registered American Trans Air 727, with minimal BA titles, on London-Glasgow ?
We, too, were on a Titan sub earlier in the year, which I quite looked forward to having heard other accounts, and although a 767 sub for a 737-800 load gave plenty of space, the crew all round were distinctly underwhelming.

Indeed, amongst others BA in the past have used are Transavia 737-200's to try them out first before they got their own order, plus Air 2000 757's on the old shuttle routes in my time at LHR, and the ATA 727-100 was usually at LGW and operated from there.

Apart from the Titan (733/734 A320 757) and Qatar hardware that BA are subbing at present, also include the Privatair 737-700 doing up to 3 round trips a day from LGW, and an Air Belgium A340-300 at LHR doing CAI and SVO. The former Finnair aircraft is in 18J/21W/264Y configuration.

At LCY JOTA Aviation RJ85 are again flying for BACF.

[RexBanner]

Although not the final plan, it appears to go from a Seniority based system, to near Blindlines for all!!

I think to be fair though if you’re super senior you’re still going to get pretty decent satisfaction out of it, except the days of Short Haul guys coming in for ten or eleven high credit day trips and taking the rest of the month off are going to be a thing of the past. Likewise super senior on Long Haul aren’t going to be doing 3/4 Cape Towns every month. Everybody else though I imagine will get a shafting, the firmness of said shafting will depend on your place on the list. Sorry for drifting it back to JSS.

[EIFFS]

I've just flown as a pax on a Titan 737-400 which was an ex BA aircraft and I have to say the service was excellent, the leg room good and the you get a complimentary drink and a decent sandwich (none of this Marks and Sparks twaddle) It felt like being on a British airline if you can understand that and had an identity in that Monarch kind of way.

BA short haul are absolutely rubbish, tired interiors, leg room in economy an utter joke, BA Cityflyer puts them to shame ditto Aer Lingus, Ryanair have more leg room.

Titan are a class act in part because their CC are trained for VIP & silver service standards, classy uniforms and great attitudes.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

BA short haul are absolutely rubbish, tired interiors, leg room in economy an utter joke, BA Cityflyer puts them to shame ditto Aer Lingus, Ryanair have more leg room.

Titan are a class act in part because their CC are trained for VIP & silver service standards, classy uniforms and great attitudes.
Comment on Titan spot on. Qatar are getting good reports also

[mcdhu]

Made the mistake of booking BA shorthaul J operated by Titan - not good.
mcdhu
Full flight ALC to LGW. Usual boarding shambles (no fault of the crew), too many huge bags being brought on board with nowhere to put them. The small amount of space available in the ‘J’ lockers was soon used up by large gentlemen from behind shoehorning said huge bags into small spaces - sometimes using (in my view) excessive force.
Therefore, after TO, we were subjected to a procession of said large gentlemen wanting access to said huge bags in order to retrieve whatever they had omitted to have available about their persons for the duration of the flight.
The BA curtain, policed by the crew, prevents this unseemly, disruptive procession which we pay extra to avoid.
The crew were willing, cheerful and smart, but had no control over the behaviours described above which makes me wish I had not paid the extra for ‘J’.
mcdhu

[WHBM]

Titan are a class act in part because their CC are trained for VIP & silver service standards, classy uniforms and great attitudes.
That's what I had heard, so was almost like I was on a Titan (767) from a parallel universe. Spaced out cabin crew, most time spent in galley gossip. Dreary 1970s brown uniforms. And an extraordinarily snappy and non-CRM commander who gave a high volume rollocking at door 1L to the dispatcher in full view of the pax in the forward cabin.

[crewmeal]

As quoted elsewhere any flight operated by QR for BA would be considered an upgrade be it long or short haul.

[RexBanner]

As quoted elsewhere any flight operated by QR for BA would be considered an upgrade be it long or short haul.

If you enjoy getting served by identikit female robots going through the motions devoid of any emotion, drained of all joy for life (much like a tired call girl questioning her life choices), yes you’ll love it. Good hard product though, absolutely.

[Black Pudding]

If you enjoy getting served by identikit female robots going through the motions devoid of any emotion, drained of all joy for life (much like a tired call girl questioning her life choices), yes you’ll love it. Good hard product though, absolutely.


https://www.qatarairways.com/en/about-qatar-airways/awards.html#

i often think what a wonderful job our cabin crew do.

[ShotOne]

At least the Qatari fleet, disgracefully (and unsuccessfully) drafted in for strike-breaking have been safely packed off home.

[kendrick47247]

They need both and they need them.... yesterday. The word is that the recruiters want to get moving and get offers out to the candidates already interviewed so they can tender their 3 months notice to current employers, but the bean-counters won't approve the expenditure in this years' budget so no offers going out until Jan 2019.

This is absolute twoddle! Plenty of offers going out continually this summer, for inductions starting Oct, Nov, and Dec

[cessnapete]

At least the Qatari fleet, disgracefully (and unsuccessfully) drafted in for strike-breaking have been safely packed off home.

The QR A330 leasing has nothing to do with Strike breaking! To cover aircraft shortfalls due ongoing B787 engine problems. As QR have a substantial share in IAG seems an eminently suitable arrangement.

[DaveReidUK]

The QR A330 leasing has nothing to do with Strike breaking! To cover aircraft shortfalls due ongoing B787 engine problems. As QR have a substantial share in IAG seems an eminently suitable arrangement.

I assume the reference was to last year's lease of Qatar A320s to mitigate the effects of the mixed fleet cabin crew strike. But you probably knew that.

[RufusXS]

The shorthaul leases are due to the acquisition of slots from Monarch at LGW. Impossible to ramp up aircraft and crew resources that quickly but needed to operate slots under 80/20 rules hence wet leases.
Qatar and shortly Air Belgium leases on long haul due to 787 aircraft grounded (5 at the moment I think) due to Rolls Royce Trent engine issues and subsequent operating restrictions enforced.


Just saw this too (A340 lease):

https://www.mro-network.com/airlines/british-airways-lease-air-belgium-a340s-787-trent-engines-are-inspected?NL=AW-022&Issue=AW-022_20180912_AW-022_848&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000001584591&utm_campaign=16337&utm_medium=email&elq2=6fa7f7241fb04c129a67513b3771974b (https://www.mro-network.com/airlines/british-airways-lease-air-belgium-a340s-787-trent-engines-are-inspected?NL=AW-022&Issue=AW-022_20180912_AW-022_848&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000001584591 &utm_campaign=16337&utm_medium=email&elq2=6fa7f7241fb04c129a 67513b3771974b)

[fjencl]

Will BA be using any WET LEASE this summer at LGW

[BRE]

I've just flown as a pax on a Titan 737-400 which was an ex BA aircraft and I have to say the service was excellent, the leg room good and the you get a complimentary drink and a decent sandwich (none of this Marks and Sparks twaddle) It felt like being on a British airline if you can understand that and had an identity in that Monarch kind of way.
According to wikipedia, they have only one 737-400 which is a cargo plane.

[DaveReidUK]

According to wikipedia, they have only one 737-400 which is a cargo plane.

They have two B734s, in fact they had 3 back in August when the post that you quoted from refers to. Only one of them is a freighter. He/she probably didn't fly on that one. :O