Irish airspace and Brexit

[Ddraig Goch]

I've searched but couldn't find a thread on the above.
Ireland's Taoiseach has said UK rights to fly through Irish airspace could be withdrawn.

[QUOTE][/This thought occurred to me when I saw the contents of a speech made by the Irish Taoiseach on Wednesday (18th July). Leo Varadkar said that London should not be surprised if Dublin withheld Irish airspace (https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/varadkar-s-claim-over-airspace-restrictions-shameful-blackmail-1-8572411) from British commercial aircraft in the event of a hard border emerging between the two parts of Ireland in the wake of Britain departing the EU. Closing airspace in a time of peace violates aviation treaties of which both Ireland and Britain are signatories. But no matter.QUOTE]
https://brexitcentral.com/dublins-threat-irish-airspace-lead-dangerous-brinkmanship/
Can he be serious?

If there is a discussion on this topic could the moderators move/delete this post

[Super VC-10]

As you say, there are international treaties (which are nothing to do with the EU) in place to facilitate aircraft of one country flying over other countries.

What I can see happening is that the UK would reciprocate, and withdraw all UK airspace to EI- registered aircraft, and flights to and from the Irish Republic. The UK wouldn't be affected too much, as transatlantic flighs would route south of Ireland, or across Northern Ireland, in UK airspace. Irish flights would only have the option of going west then south, or a long way north before turning east to Europe. That would massively increase their fuel costs and make the routes unprofitable.

[Daysleeper]

I'd have thought this might confuse things a bit for both sides https://www.ukirelandfab.eu still it's yet another "unforeseen" consequence of Brexit which the proponents of have no foresight for or solution to.

Oh and routing across NI really won't help you get to the Atlantic from Eng/Wales much, Donegal is in the way.

[AirportPlanner1]

Super VC10, it would cause far more trouble than you suggest.

Most obviously, that would wipe Ryanair from the UK map. So that’s Stansted decimated, Prestwick gone altogether for pax and massive holes at various UK airports. On a smaller scale Stobart Air couldn’t operate its Southend routes, which is a decent chunk of the airport’s throughout. That’s a lot of direct jobs, not just the theoretical ones in Ryanair press releases.

Then you have another problem of third parties getting caught up - EI registered aircraft operating elsewhere eg Alitalia. It’s plausible other nations might reciprocate bans.

[DaveReidUK]

Can he be serious?

No, he's an idiot.

EI's route network::

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1947x1253/ei_route_map_ce6e75c5024e600519d70b504bae7ef340b147d9.jpg

[superflanker]

Please remember: if UK crashes out of the EU without a deal (no membership of EASA), no flights from UK operators could be conducted to Europe and probably the rest of the world (because current agreements are through EASA).

[kcockayne]

This is just another politician spouting off about something he knows nothing about. I have taken part in briefings & negotiations with these people on a few occasions & have never failed to be overcome by their breathtaking ignorance !

[ShotOne]

Firstly, if Mr Varadkar were to carry out his nasty threat, Ireland would come off much worse in the ensuing tit-for-tat. But on examining his demand, that after a no-deal Brexit, Irish fisherman continue to be allowed to fish UK waters, it becomes even more outrageous. Is there the remotest chance of U.K. fishermen being allowed to fish EU waters in this circumstance? It's worrying that Ireland should address its closest trading partner in such a belligerent and unreasonable way.

[PorridgeStirrer]

He was talking about all the EU airspace, not just Ireland’s.

[gcal]

Firstly, if Mr Varadkar were to carry out his nasty threat, Ireland would come off much worse in the ensuing tit-for-tat. But on examining his demand, that after a no-deal Brexit, Irish fisherman continue to be allowed to fish UK waters, it becomes even more outrageous. Is there the remotest chance of U.K. fishermen being allowed to fish EU waters in this circumstance? It's worrying that Ireland should address its closest trading partner in such a belligerent and unreasonable way.



Belligerent? Ireland? The country most likely to be hit hard by the reckless action of its neighbour. I think rather they have been planning ahead in launching one (and building others) super sized (the largest) ferry to sail around the UK....they are actually doing something real, something that can be seen and touched.
After all not one single person in the UK government knows what actually will happen to UK aviation or anything else.
The airline business needs to plan ahead and time is becoming perilously short.

[The Ancient Geek]

Its a storm in a teacup.
Everyone is posturing and threatening about their special interest.
In the end an acceptable deal will be made because that is in everyones best interest.

[Dannyboy39]

Illegal as per the Chicago convention, no?

[BAengineer]

Perhaps someone should send Mr Varadkar a copy of the International Air Services Transit Agreement that Ireland signed in 1957.International Air Services Transit Agreement refers to a multilateral agreement drawn up in Chicago convention ie., the Convention on Civil Aviation, by the members of the of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). The agreement established for the first time the principle of automatic right of transit and of emergency landing. The agreement is known as two freedom agreement. Article one of the agreement states that each contracting state grants to the other contracting states the following freedoms of the air in respect of scheduled international air services :

(1) The privilege to fly across its territory without landing;

(2) The privilege to land for non-traffic purposes.

The second freedom grants the civil aircrafts the freedom to make non traffic landings in foreign countries for refueling or overhaul only, in foreign territory.

[mini]

better information here (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/uk-flights-will-not-be-able-to-land-in-ireland-without-post-brexit-deal-1.3571311)

[Economics101]

What Varadker said was based on how the EU might react to a crash-out Brexit, not what Dublin would "threaten" to do unilaterally. While Varadkar may have been mistaken in referring to overflights, the problem is much more real when it comes to flights into the UK from EU member states, including Ireland.

Ireland has more to lose than the UK from Brexit, and aviation provides a dramatic example of possible collateral damage. I looked at the Sun's despicable comments about Varadkar being an Airhead. At times I thing the appalling Trump has a point when he characterises the media as the enemy of the people. How many people in the UK are influenced by the poisonous and lying nonsense emanating from the Sun and other newspapers?

[Super VC-10]

This is why it is in everyone's interest to reach an agreement. The EU will not profit if the UK leaves without a deal.

https://nltimes.nl/2018/07/20/hard-brexit-big-blow-netherlands-imf-says

[diple]

The UK media are conducting an unfocused propoganda war to keep the UK public on side.
Believe nothing that you read concerning BREXIT in UK media and you'll be fine.
Michel Barnier at a press-conference responded to May's Brexit proposal in a matter of fact way and the first question he receives is from The Guardian Reporter asking him if that was a polite way of saying No; that is a Journalist with an agenda.

This is all very Brass Eye/The Day Today stuff; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY

[Fatigued Fred]

As you say, there are international treaties (which are nothing to do with the EU) in place to facilitate aircraft of one country flying over other countries.

What I can see happening is that the UK would reciprocate, and withdraw all UK airspace to EI- registered aircraft, and flights to and from the Irish Republic. The UK wouldn't be affected too much, as transatlantic flighs would route south of Ireland, or across Northern Ireland, in UK airspace. Irish flights would only have the option of going west then south, or a long way north before turning east to Europe. That would massively increase their fuel costs and make the routes unprofitable.

"The UK wouldn't be affected much " ?

We should be very careful about bandying that sort of propaganda. If the UK tries to use airspace and ATC restrictions in an attempt to leverage weight in its negotiations, it would be wise to remember that only a comparatively small number of European airlines use Shanwick when you you look at total flight numbers. They can use Santa Maria or Kef if need be. 85-90% of uk airlines have to route through EU airspace. We'd be on a hiding to nothing if the Uk government tries that one!

[The Nip]

Does the RAF cover Irish airspace for potential hijacking situations?

[diple]

Its a storm in a teacup.
Everyone is posturing and threatening about their special interest.
In the end an acceptable deal will be made because that is in everyones best interest.

Leo is not posturing. He is being mis-represented in the British Press as have a number of other Irish politicians over the last few months.Irish Politicians are afraid to open their traps on this topic.

[panda-k-bear]

All told the EU cannot do a damn thing itself since it is not a state. ICAO therefore recognises the individual countries that make up the EU, not the EU itself; the EU has 'observer' status at ICAO. And Ireland would be in direct contravention of the ICAO treaties that it has signed up to. Could it happen? Well.... just ask Qatar.

[Super VC-10]

Fatigued Fred - my comment was very firmly laying out the situation in the case that the Republic of Ireland had acted first. AFAIK, the UK is not threatening to stop EU aircraft from operating in the UK. What I have seen, is several threats from the EU and countries therein to stop the UK from operating in the EU post brexit.

[diple]

Fatigued Fred - my comment was very firmly laying out the situation in the case that the Republic of Ireland had acted first. AFAIK, the UK is not threatening to stop EU aircraft from operating in the UK. What I have seen, is several threats from the EU and countries therein to stop the UK from operating in the EU post brexit.
Where have you seen threats. Video evidence please. Not reported speech from a biased UK media.
Facts that once the UK are out of the Union that they must re-negotiate various agreements are not threats, they are statements of fact.

[Just a spotter]

Remind me again who owns The Sun?
I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anthony-hilton-stay-or-go-the-lack-of-solid-facts-means-it-s-all-a-leap-of-faith-a3189151.html


What is the paper's position on Brexit?
We urge our readers to beLEAVE in Britain and vote to quit the EU on June 23https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1277920/we-urge-our-readers-to-believe-in-britain-and-vote-to-leave-the-eu-in-referendum-on-june-23/


The reality of the comment?
The Taoiseach was answering questions on whether there were preparations for an aviation treaty in the event of a hard Brexit, or a no-deal scenario. After being pressed on whether they were already underway, he said that there was a focus on a Brexit deal between the EU and the UK.

FactCheck: Did the Taoiseach threaten to ban British planes from Irish skies? (http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-taoiseach-british-planes-irish-skies-4137889-Jul2018/In)


In short, an archetypal UK red top tabloid hollows of the facts from a story, fills the space with misrepresentation that matches its owners agenda and pushes it a news. While the topic is newsworthy the Sun spin does no-one any service.

To borrow from Charles Dickens
'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!'
Mr.Gradgrind, Hard Times.

JAS

[ShotOne]

Mr Varadkar hasn’t been misquoted; it seems it’s he who wants Boris’s cake and eat it A “crash-out” Brexit would be terrible for everyone. How can he possibly imagine Irish fishermen would be exempt from the consequences?

[The Old Fat One]

fixed your post

After all not one single person knows what actually will happen to UK aviation or anything else.

[radiosutch]

Ok more petrol being poured on -

What about the EU saying the RAF cannot use any Cyprus bases?
Cutting, nose,spite and face are words that come to mind..

Roll on exit..

[ORAC]

Direct quote?

“If they want their planes to fly over our skies, they would need to take that into account. You can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t take back your waters and then expect to take back other people’s sky.”

[KelvinD]

If you are really bored, you can see the official EU position here:
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-air-transport.pdf

[Chris Scott]

Goodness me, how did we ever manage to operate air services to the present countries of the EU prior to our joining the EEC in 1973? Could we hope to find sufficient competence to regulate the multiple aspects of our aerospace industry in the absence of the regulatory expertise of EASA? Why would any of the 27 remaining EU countries ever want to enter our airspace or sell us any of their aerospace products? Why would an EU-registered airline want to continue operating the majority of its services from a hub in the UK?

[Economics101]

Chris Scott: When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, there was no single European open skies arrangement. That came much later.

In 1973 there was a network of bilateral aviation agreements which throttled competition, and going back to 1973 is probably unfeasible (the EU as a whole would negotiate any new post-Brexit agreement). Who wants to go back to the old world of bilateral monopoly arrangement and astronomically high air fares?

Brexit a problem? Just put the clock back 45 years. I love it!

[Airbanda]

Goodness me, how did we ever manage to operate air services to the present countries of the EU prior to our joining the EEC in 1973?

In 1973 would anyone have seriously suggested reverting to a status qou ante 45 years earlier?

Just another example of the delusions that have driven the UK to it's current position as the laughing stock of Europe.

[Denti]

As usual with BREXIT the problem is really fractal, the closer you look, the more complicated it becomes.

Upon leaving the EU without a deal the UK would also leave Eurocontrol, EASA, Euratom and a quite large list of other agencies and treaties, amongst others the EU open sky agreement, the open sky agreements with the US and other parties. What would that mean?

All EASA licenses issued by the UK CAA would no longer be valid and recognised anywhere world wide with the possible exception of the UK.
The UK and its airlines would no longer be able to access Eurocontrol, the slot system and any air traffic control agreement under that umbrella would be null and void. Doesn't matter, the ATCO licenses are no longer valid anyway.
The UK airlines would have no route rights into europe at all, nor into the US unless a new UK-US open sky agreement has been done. Initial talks on that matter were, well, quite sobering for the UK.
No UK aircraft would be deemed airworthy if the airworthiness certificate was issued by the UK CAA or under UK CAA guidance.

Of course, any completely UK or third country certified (not based on EASA rules) aircraft and aircrew would be able to overfly EU countries and even land in the EU under the montreal convention, but they would not have any airport slots nor route rights.

That is all based on a no-deal scenario. It becomes more likely right now, but there is still a slim chance for a hastily done deal, although for that the UK would have to completely cave in as the EU is not in any way able to get away from its red lines (integrity of the single market system).

The only UK airline that has tried to prepare for BREXIT in its reality so far with shifting a third of its fleet into a european AOC. However, with the very small exception of the recently hired TXL based crew the rest of the airline is completely UK certified. Which means it will be effectively grounded with a small number of flights being able to be operated out of TXL.

[KelvinD]

And surely the reciprocal applies. Should the EU decide UK carriers can no longer operate into the EU, then what makes them think the UK will allow EU based carriers to the UK? And I suppose the same can be applied to all the other notices/directives.

[DaveReidUK]

Upon leaving the EU without a deal the UK would also leave Eurocontrol, EASA, Euratom and a quite large list of other agencies and treaties, amongst others the EU open sky agreement, the open sky agreements with the US and other parties.

Eurocontrol is not an EU agency.

[Caravaggio]

How many European airlines have enough fat in their balance sheets to tolerate the excommunication of a post Brexit UK.
If Brussels decides to play silly beggars then the share value of all European airlines will be reduced to junk status.
Not sure how Barnier, Juncker et al will sell that outcome to the CEOs and the shareholders of their flag carriers.

[M609]

Eurocontrol is not an EU agency.


Correct, but the Network Manager does work on behalf of the European Comission

[Chris Scott]

In 1973 would anyone have seriously suggested reverting to a status qou ante 45 years earlier?

Just another example of the delusions that have driven the UK to it's current position as the laughing stock of Europe.

Wasn't doing anything of the kind; merely pointing out that the UK can negotiate from a much stronger position on aerospace than Remainers pretend. Where there's a will there's a way, and clearly that applies to both sides, as I pointed out.

BTW, in relation to Mr Varadkar's threat (whoops, I beg his pardon: observations) on British a/c using Irish airspace, here's another example in which pragmatism would take precedence:
https://order-order.com/2018/07/20/ireland-expects-raf-help-event-terrorist-hijack/

I wonder what Mr O'Leary thinks of the Irish drum-beating on behalf of the EU.

[diple]

Direct quote?





FactCheck: Did the Taoiseach threaten to ban British planes from Irish skies? (http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-taoiseach-british-planes-irish-skies-4137889-Jul2018/)

[infrequentflyer789]

Where have you seen threats. Video evidence please. Not reported speech from a biased UK media.
Facts that once the UK are out of the Union that they must re-negotiate various agreements are not threats, they are statements of fact.

I have not seen the threat on video but quoted in multiple media sources including Irish press sources as “If they want their planes to fly over our skies, they would need to take that into account,” (and more).

Flying over right (first freedom) is covered by IASTA which both the UK and Ireland signed decades before the EU even existed, it has nothing to do with EU membership or hard or soft Brexit. That is a fact. Stating that the UK must re-negotiate various agreements, including Open Skies, in the event of Brexit is also a fact. Stating "...If they want their planes to fly over our skies ..." has no basis in fact unless Ireland intends to leave IASTA, it is not a threat, it is simply b***ocks.

[Airbanda]

I have not seen the threat on video but quoted in multiple media sources including Irish press sources as “If they want their planes to fly over our skies, they would need to take that into account,” (and more).

Flying over right (first freedom) is covered by IASTA which both the UK and Ireland signed decades before the EU even existed, it has nothing to do with EU membership or hard or soft Brexit. That is a fact. Stating that the UK must re-negotiate various agreements, including Open Skies, in the event of Brexit is also a fact. Stating "...If they want their planes to fly over our skies ..." has no basis in fact unless Ireland intends to leave IASTA, it is not a threat, it is simply b***ocks.

Decades before? Are you sure about that?

And whatever history of IASTA how has it been amended between 1973 and now while both UK and Ireland have been in EU?

Leaving the EU is not something any nation has done before; we're beating a track through virgin territory.

Consequences are unknown.

[wiggy]

How many European airlines have enough fat in their balance sheets to tolerate the excommunication of a post Brexit UK.
....

Fair point, but then look at the timetables of your typical British based airline and the European airlines, look at the destination pairs/route network and ask yourself whose balance sheet would be effected the most rapidly: the likes of Lufthansa/Air France or the likes of BA?

[BAengineer]

Fair point, but then look at the timetables of your typical British based airline and the European airlines, look at the destination pairs/route network and ask yourself whose balance sheet would be effected the most rapidly: the likes of Lufthansa/Air France or the likes of BA?

Would BA be that affected as they are basically now a Spanish Airline?. In fact I believe the only predominately British Airline is now Jet 2, even Easyjet is arguable depending on where Stelios declares himself resident.

Apart from the timetables you also have to look at the investment, for example Lufthansa has around $1bn worth of value tied up in its LHR slots - I'm not sure they would be that keen on seeing that flushed away by politicians playing games in Brussels.

[Icarus2001]

All EASA licenses issued by the UK CAA would no longer be valid and recognised anywhere world wide with the That is not a given at this point. You are assuming that to be the case. If a licence was correctly and legally issued it does not have to stop having an effect because the UK leaves the EU. A simple stroke of the pen makes it valid until replaced by another licence. You guys seem to be enjoying and talking up the prospect of Aviation Armageddon come March 2019. There are too many vested interests to allow that to happen. Yes it is potentially messy but it will be sorted.

[Dannyboy39]

FactCheck: Did the Taoiseach threaten to ban British planes from Irish skies? (http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-taoiseach-british-planes-irish-skies-4137889-Jul2018/)
A “fact check” with alternative facts.

As per the Chicago Convention, aircraft are permitted overflight over any signatory’s territory. It’s the landing part that is the issue.

[Nemrytter]

If you want a pretty decent overview of the state-of-play that doesn't come from some journo hack (did someone really quote an order-order article? really? unbelievable) then this is quite good: https://www.gbaa.de/fileadmin/pdf/2018-01_Brexit_and_Business_Aviation.pdf

Disclaimer: It's from the Germans, so no doubt whichever highly intelligent individual liked order-order will say this is automatically wrong as it's not British ;)

[The Old Fat One]

You guys seem to be enjoying and talking up the prospect of Aviation Armageddon come March 2019.

Not Armageddon (and I don't read that too many folk are suggesting it). But airlines in general are not known for their financial robustness and things won't have to get too "messy" for casualties to occur. The EU and UK have locked themselves into a very obvious and unsubtle game of chicken. The EU won't cave on any of their red lines until the last possible minute and TM knows if she has to surrender one more of hers, she is toast and the UK constitutional fall out will guarantee a hard brexit, unless a rapid delay can be negotiated by whoever ends up with the reins in the UK. All of this means uncertainty will continue until the 11th hour and by then damage will have started to occur in this industry irrespective of brexit outcomes. How much damage and what the consequences are for individual airlines (and their crews) remains to be seen...no one knows the answer to that, what is weird is that quite a few people seem to think they do???

PS

Nemrytter, thanks for the link. That's bed-time reading for later...nice to have something substantial on this for once.

[EIFFS]

Leaving the EU was never going to be easy despite what the pro leave camp claimed, their optimism was predicated on the assumption that mutual interest rather than politics would be the key driver.

At it’s core the EU must ensure that the UK is significantly worse off out side compared with remaining in the bloc, even a trade deal must structured in such a way that the UK will trade money,no say and continued freedom of movement in order to have so called frictionless borders despite the fact that there is already considerable friction as non Schengen members.

Lets be absolutely clear it is in everyone’s interest that the UK remains in the EU apart from of course the 17.4m people who voted leave.

with good will on both sides they could both have their cake and eat it, but that isn’t going to happen, the Chequers agreement will not be agreed by the EU, more concessions will be needed to the point that coming out will indeed be pointless, this will force the PM out and under the fixed term parliament act the Conservatives will have 14 days to appoint a new leader or hand over to Jermery Corbyn ( good luck with that)

Leo at the Irish tes shop is being played for a fool by the EU commission, they think the good Friday agreement is the silver bullet to kill Brexit, but there are far more Irish registered aircraft than any other nation outside of the USA so this doesn’t just impact Aer Lingus or Ryanair, Norwegian EI fleet is the bulk ( but easily moved to exsisting AOC in Norway or the UK) SAS and a whole host of other airlines are flying around on EI plates ( must be a good deal?)

it could either way but but sooner or later the big money airlines are going to instruct their national Governments to instruct the commission to do a deal, otherwise some will go bust or need bail outs

[Trossie]

...

Lets be absolutely clear it is in everyone’s interest that the UK remains in the EU apart from of course the 17.4m people who voted leave.

...
An extremely 'EU-centric' view of democracy!!!

...
Leo at the Irish tes shop is being played for a fool by the EU commission ...

Without a single doubt on that one. With this statement of his he has proven to all and sundry that he does not have a clue what he is talking about. He should be sidelined from now on.

... but sooner or later the big money airlines are going to instruct their national Governments to instruct the commission to do a deal, otherwise some will go bust or need bail outs

Spot on. But not just the airlines, every other big money business throughout Europe will be doing the same. Those clowns in that Commission (Kommissariat?) are too dangerous to be entrusted with the future livelihoods of millions and millions of Europeans.

[infrequentflyer789]

Decades before? Are you sure about that?


Well, I am assuming ICAO's records are correct because I wasn't around back then. From https://www.icao.int/secretariat/legal/List%20of%20Parties/Transit_EN.pdf


Ireland 15 November 1957
...
United Kingdom 31 May 1945


I am sure (because I was around then) that those dates are decades before the EU existed, as the EU was created with Maastricht treaty in the 90's.

[MR172]

Bloody irish should stop this nonsense and row in behind Theresa, were stronger together.

[Nemrytter]

Symantics, and you know it. The EU simply had a different name before 1993. This debate would be much better if people presented facts rather than whatever distorted opinion they have.

[ELondonPax]

MR172. We are indeed stronger together, and the best solution for that is for the UK to remain in the EU.
Why you expect the Irish to jump off a cliff with us and wreck their economy too is beyond me.

[ELondonPax]

Oh and referring to our neighbours as "bloody Irish" is a superb tactic. I'm sure they'll fall into line in response to that sort of language. That's very much winning hearts and minds isn't it.
Or perhaps that sort of ugly attitude is why they chose to break from the UK....,

[diple]

Bloody irish should stop this nonsense and row in behind Theresa, were stronger together.
You have a perverse sense of humour; A divided island, 800 years of oppression, famine in one of the most fertile places on the face of the planet, impoverishment and disenfranchisement. England is not Ireland's bosom buddy. If England wants to get all Isolationist and Xenophobic they can do it in the conventional fashion i.e. on their own by their lonesome but as the saying goes "Misery loves company" and they've dragged an unwilling Scotland and Northern Ireland in to their predicament already.

[diple]

It may have escaped some people's notice but Ireland did not flourish under the English Hegemony.

[Heathrow Harry]

MR172. We are indeed stronger together, and the best solution for that is for the UK to remain in the EU.
Why you expect the Irish to jump off a cliff with us and wreck their economy too is beyond me.

especially when their current prosperity, after centuries of being ignored, has everything to do with them being in the EU

[MR172]

I'm Irish guys, I was being sarcastic in the vain of Jacob, Boris and some people on this forum.

Hopefully it'll all work out

[ORAC]

Diple- the Journal fact check is also bollocks and wrong.

The Taioseach as said spoke in reference to the Single European Sky programme which is specifically concerned with helping rationalise ATC control over the EU, Norway and Switzerland under Eurocontrol. Note that neither Norway or Switzerland are in the EU and EUROCONTROL is not an EU body. UK control over the Shanwick area is delegated to the UK by ICAO - not the EU.

The programme has nothing to do with overflight rights - and leaving the EU will in no way affect the control of air traffic over the UK FIR and Shanwick Oceanic Area or permit Eire or the EU to anyway limit UK overflight rights.

The Taoiseach made a threat based upon a total misunderstanding of how international air traffic and ATC is legislated and controlled, as opposed to EU licensing and landing rights under Open Skies etc - and the Journal is equally as confused.

[diple]

Diple- the Journal fact check is also bollocks and wrong.

The Taioseach as said spoke in reference to the Single European Sky programme which is specifically concerned with helping rationalise ATC control over the EU, Norway and Switzerland under Eurocontrol. Note that neither Norway or Switzerland are in the EU and EUROCONTROL is not an EU body. UK control over the Shanwick area is delegated to the UK by ICAO - not the EU.

The programme has nothing to do with overflight rights - and leaving the EU will in no way affect the control of air traffic over the UK FIR and Shanwick Oceanic Area or permit Eire or the EU to anyway limit UK overflight rights.

The Taoiseach made a threat based upon a total misunderstanding of how international air traffic and ATC is legislated and controlled, as opposed to EU licensing and landing rights under Open Skies etc - and the Journal is equally as confused.
That is not the case. Without the co-operation of the E.U. states the ability to fly through Irish Airspace is not to be taken for granted as Countries in other parts of the world are
Look, you can be as overbearing as you want and dismiss what he says as "bollocks" but here is another report where the Irish Aviation Authority is of the opinion that overflight rights need to be negotiated; https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-aviation-authority-new-euuk-flights-deal-needed-in-event-of-hard-brexit-472940.html
The advice that the Taoiseach has received is that overflight rights will have to be negotiated so (I now transition to capital letters) HE IS NOT ISSUING THREATS, HE IS STATING HIS UNDERSTANDING OF FACTS and his understanding of facts is commonly held by others.

The Irish Government are not the bad guys here despite how the British media and Brexiteers wish to portray them and they are not the reason why the English and the other elements of the UK are heading towards a very hard painful hard exit.

[ORAC]

Diple, That article backs up what I say - the IAA statement carefully restricts itself to talking about landing rights - whilst Varadkar continues to show he misses the point by talking the Single European Skies programme which is about ATC rationalisation.

[Just a spotter]

If I may be so bold as to inject some factual information into the discussion;

From The Financial Times, 27th November 2017, "UK Airlines risk losing flying rights, says Brexit paper"

If Britain left the single market, the paper states, UK-owned airlines would automatically lose existing flying rights in Europe’s “fully liberalised” aviation market, and would no longer be entitled to EU recognition of approvals for parts or certificates for airworthiness.
https://www.ft.com/content/e7674638-d078-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc

In a later piece from Euronews carrying a Reuters report from 12th December 2017

British airlines will lose all flying rights the European Union has negotiated with third countries as well as those negotiated by individual EU states after Britain quits the bloc, the EU executive said in a note. They would also lose flying rights under agreements between individual EU member states and third countries as they would not longer be considered EU airlines.
EU warns British airlines on post-Brexit flying | Euronews (http://www.euronews.com/2017/12/12/eu-sends-stark-warning-to-airlines-on-post-brexit-flying)

And those at the coal face of the aviation industry agree.

BALPA's position even before either of the above from 10th October 2017
Commenting on suggestions by the Prime Minister that a Brexit ‘no deal’ was now an option, BALPA General Secretary Brian Strutton said:
“The entire UK aviation sector which employs nearly a million people and carries more than 250 million passengers per annum would be devastated by a Brexit ‘no deal’.
“Unlike most other sectors there are no World Trade Organisation or any other rules to fall back on for aviation if there is no deal.
“UK airlines could find they have to stop flying – it’s that serious. And this would impact passengers long before March 2019 because airlines couldn’t sell advance tickets and, frankly, would passengers risk buying them?
https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/BALPA-says-a-Brexit-%E2%80%98no-deal%E2%80%99-would-spell-disaster

JAS

[BAengineer]

If I may be so bold as to inject some factual information into the discussion;

From The Financial Times, 27th November 2017, "UK Airlines risk losing flying rights, says Brexit paper"




But nobody is arguing about that. It is just the proposal by Mr Varadkar that Ireland could close its airspace to overflights from the UK.

An issue that is governed by the Chicago Convention and not the EU.

[DrCuffe]

The prime issue seems to be landing rights, and third country agreements negotiated by the EU as a whole on the part of its members. Overflying seems, despite what some of the red tops say, to be a non issue. This could be ironed out by some sort of a transitional arrangement, some legal version of "business as usual" wrapped up appropriately in legalese.
The problem with all of this, is that the EU negotiators have described this sort of approach as "Cherry picking", which they have specifically ruled out. There are many other technical issues across most industries, each of which consider their baby to be critical for future operations. The problem is, until the conservative party have a clear, consistent, and defensible approach to these negotiations, nobody is going to get around to the details, and it is not going to happen.
For the Irish, it is a big deal, and so their prime minister is going to talk about it.

[sTeamTraen]

Ok more petrol being poured on -

What about the EU saying the RAF cannot use any Cyprus bases?
Cutting, nose,spite and face are words that come to mind..

Roll on exit..
The Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus are UK territory with the same status as, say, the Falkland Islands. So the EU has no say. (Indeed, the SBAs have never been in the European Union.)

Fun pub quiz night fact: the SBAs are the only UK territory where the official currency is the Euro.