Should the captain apologise to passengers for bone jarring landing

[Judd]

I was a passenger in a bone jarring landing in a 737. There were expressions of alarm from the passengers at the impact. As an experienced airline pilot on type I could only guess that whoever did the landing seriously stuffed up for whatever reason. As the first officer had made a couple of PA's before the approach it suggested he may have been PF. There were mutterings from a couple of passengers saying they will never fly with that airline again. I must admit I understood their sentiments.

Some would argue it would have demonstrated good manners and diplomacy by the captain if he had made an apology on the PA for the landing with even a confected rather than a true explanation what caused the heavy landing?. Or should he have ignored the obvious concerns of the passengers and cabin crew and said nothing (which he did, anyway). A touch of humility or even humour would have been appreciated and maybe the incident laughed off by some passengers as a one/off event.

[dfdasein]

Once had a FO apologise for a hard landing: "Hope it hasn't spoilt your day as it has mine."

[MATELO]

As an experienced airline pilot on type

So, are you not well placed to answer your own question?

[ShyTorque]

Seems obvious that he should have immediately made an announcement blaming the FO.

;)

[pulse1]

Seems obvious that he should have immediately made an announcement blaming the FO.

Didn't a BA captain once do that and the FO put on the captain's jacket and went to say goodbye to the passengers.

[easyflyer83]

A cabin manager viewpoint here....... no he shouldn't. As crew we occasionally take the mick out of landings but we are taking the mick out of our own.
One of my bug bares is how passengers 'gush' over the pilots (often ignoring the hard working cabin crew who have catered to their every whim for the last X amount of hours) saying how good the landing was etc. At the end of the day, Joe Bloggs doesn't really know what a good/skilled landing is. The same goes for a 'bad landing'. They may not know the circumstances surrounding that landing.... blah blah blah.

[dr dre]

Not at all.

The idea that a hard landing equals a bad one is false. What if it was a short runway, wet conditions? I want a firm landing in the touchdown zone thanks not chewing up of the TDZ to get a greaser. I want to touchdown as soon as possible and make the first available high speed exit rather than spend more time on the runway and cause a missed approach behind. This should be communicated to the flying public. Besides what most of them would think is a “hard landing” is just really a firm one within g limits.

Make pilots start apologising for firm landings and then to avoid those apologies they’ll aim for more greasers, which means more overruns and more go arounds due to runway occupancy.

Judging the “success” of a flight by the firmness of the landing is like judging the success of open heart surgery by the quality of the stitching.

[blind pew]

It's about respect towards those paying your wages. As to firm landings on short wet runways with ability it's not a problem to get a smooth touchdown and the aquaplanning thingy is a myth propagated by the ignorant in BEA in the 70s which was continued into BA.

[binzer]

Well they should apologise after my flight from Moscow to Geneva the other day. The Swiss cabin crew were excellent for our trip,, then the pilots ruined it with excessive braking, And I’ll answer already,, it was just to make an earlier exit.

[pilotmike]

Well they should apologise after my flight from Moscow to Geneva the other day. The Swiss cabin crew were excellent for our trip,, then the pilots ruined it with excessive braking, And I’ll answer already,, it was just to make an earlier exit.


Wow! In your own words, an excellent flight with excellent service from the cabin crew, then the "pilots" - apparently both of them - ruined your day by maybe taking a last minute instruction from ATC to take the next exit and "expedite", and complying with that possible instruction, all for your safety? And you might have felt a small increased pressure from that lapstrap that you still had fastened. Maybe better not to fasten your belt next time, 'cos you'd never want any discomfort from that ruining your day in a serious emergency, would you?

You've come on here to gripe about some braking which undoubtedly was done for safety and not just for the fun of doing it to ruin your day. It doesn't take much to upset you! Truly awful. I hope you have recovered from what must have been a terrifying and shocking experience. The acceleration on take off can sometimes be a bit severe too, especially on those shorter runways, so maybe complain to the pilots (both of them, remember - jointly and severally guilty of such gross misconduct) about that as well. Everything just for your ultimate comfort, b0II0(&$ to everyone else's safety. Heaven forbid they ever dared an emergency descent after an explosive decompression. "Take it down real slow, we'd never want any complaints from binzer back there, would we". Let everyone pass out with hypoxia rather than upset old 'whinger binzer'!

Might I respectfully suggest only travelling by foot from now on, as cars, even trains sometimes have to brake more sharply than the driver might wish, purely for the safety of their passengers and themselves. Oh, what a rotten world, with cars and trains and planes with brakes, and the drivers / pilots sometimes having to use them.

Might you have over-indulged from the generosity of the cabin crew and this was the real cause of your belly-ache?

Just askin'!

[blind pew]

Which existed in the 70s and had something to do with reduce brake pad wear..hit them hard.
Was the main reason for the Athens fatal crash but the captain was a senior officer in the military and the copilot ex luftwaffe starfighters and hence easier to blame.
Nearly ran off the end of an icy Gothenburg with a similar ****...needed boroscope checks afterwards.

[rog747]

No, pilots should not say sorry for a bang down landing -
as the CC usually get on the PA and says Ladies and gentlemen as you may have noticed we have just arrived at XXX
cue -nervous giggles all round

But,
I HAVE flown a lot recently with different airlines mostly legacy, and have noticed a sharp increase in very harsh braking on landing to make a quick turn off - pax and bags and everything else thrown forward and quite disconcerting for many pax -
IMO this is not really a safe normalised procedure of the day as mentioned by someone above - it smacks of saturation of our air space and of 'rushing' as another plane is right up this one's back side and needs to land too so get off the runway PDQ - is that safe ? - not in my opinion but it is pretty standard at almost any busy airport

'overcrowding and rushing' often only leads to one thing as we know

Uk train drivers are trained and monitored not to use harsh braking especially on express services with catering and/or sleeper services - they get told off if they upset the pax -

[atpcliff]

If i heard pax complain, I would tell them that is was a safe and successful landing.
Some airlines check the "G" loading on every landing and meet out fines if it was too high. This has caused several crashes. The last one I read about the passengers were cheering and clapping for the "Smooth" landing...and then the plane went off the end, crashed, burst into flames, and killed half the pax. But it was a "Greaser!"

[Mooneyboy]

Personally I would never apologise. You very occasionally get the odd pax who will put a bogus claim in for compensation due to a 'hard landing'. It certainly would not help yourself legally if you went out afterwards admitting it was a hard landing. You might even go give an opportunist passenger the idea to make a complaint and claim by going out and apologising.

Easyflyer83 my partner who is crew also used to have the same bug bear as you until I pointed out its usually the only opportunity passengers have to thank the pilots due to the current climate of locked door policies. If I'm a passenger and receive a great service in flight from the cabin crew I will usually take the opportunity there and then to thank them and say bye to them disembarking and then thank the flight deck. Sometimes it can be the other way round where you land in challenging conditions and passengers will thank the cabin crew and ignore the pilots. Don't take it to heart!

[Capt Pit Bull]

NEVER apologise for ANYTHING in public transport ops.

Seriously, just don't do it.

It can be used as an admission of culpability by some bull**** compensation claim.

[His dudeness]

I HAVE flown a lot recently with different airlines mostly legacy, and have noticed a sharp increase in very harsh braking on landing to make a quick turn off - pax and bags and everything else thrown forward and quite disconcerting for many pax -

Uk train drivers are trained and monitored not to use harsh braking especially on express services with catering and/or sleeper services - they get told off if they upset the pax -

In my aircraft (not an airline) pax are strapped in and their "bags" are in the baggage compartment. Everything elsE is stowed for T/O and Landing. I suspect that this is the case in airlines too and especially in legacy carriers. If not, than there is some blame on the CC or the pax justified, NOT the pilots.

Train drivers braking vs. pilot braking ? REALLY ? What about the emergency brake in trains, cushioned off as well ? As in "not to upset me" ?

[binzer]

Wow! In your own words, an excellent flight with excellent service from the cabin crew, then the "pilots" - apparently both of them - ruined your day by maybe taking a last minute instruction from ATC to take the next exit and "expedite", and complying with that possible instruction, all for your safety? And you might have felt a small increased pressure from that lapstrap that you still had fastened. Maybe better not to fasten your belt next time, 'cos you'd never want any discomfort from that ruining your day in a serious emergency, would you?

You've come on here to gripe about some braking which undoubtedly was done for safety and not just for the fun of doing it to ruin your day. It doesn't take much to upset you! Truly awful. I hope you have recovered from what must have been a terrifying and shocking experience. The acceleration on take off can sometimes be a bit severe too, especially on those shorter runways, so maybe complain to the pilots (both of them, remember - jointly and severally guilty of such gross misconduct) about that as well. Everything just for your ultimate comfort, b0II0(&$ to everyone else's safety. Heaven forbid they ever dared an emergency descent after an explosive decompression. "Take it down real slow, we'd never want any complaints from binzer back there, would we". Let everyone pass out with hypoxia rather than upset old 'whinger binzer'!

Might I respectfully suggest only travelling by foot from now on, as cars, even trains sometimes have to brake more sharply than the driver might wish, purely for the safety of their passengers and themselves. Oh, what a rotten world, with cars and trains and planes with brakes, and the drivers / pilots sometimes having to use them.

Might you have over-indulged from the generosity of the cabin crew and this was the real cause of your belly-ache?

Just askin'!


Blimey Pilotmike you must of been on the same flight and spilt your coffee,, something rattle your cage. Like others have said it happens . I do have the pleasure of sitting in the front lhs and also being pax going into Geneva a lot and yes it does happen quite frequently especially on Swiss. And as everyone knows who use Geneva you have a lot of airlines in and out so I can compare Why does everyone oh no you, think it’s a safety issue all the time, coming on the easterly exits d and c are very close and b is only a bit further,,, It’s about time saving that’s all, By your thinking most of my flights into Geneva are all near missus and they’re only just making it safely. And you probably thought you were the only pilot on this forum. Come down from your ivory tower and mix with the rest of the world.

[pithblot]

dr dre, I agree with you at post #7

A long time ago, as a new DC3 F/O, I made a safe but bone-jarring mess of what should have bee a reasonably straight forward landing. Captain instructed me "pithblot, you are going to have to apologise to our pax for that landing", which I rather sheepishly did, adding that "the Captain will demonstrate how to properly land a DC3 at the next port".

At the next port, we could hear the grass lapping the main wheels during the flare, but felt nothing of the touchdown. The pax were suitably impressed, but graciously saved all their sympathy for me!

pilhblot

[rog747]

In my aircraft (not an airline) pax are strapped in and their "bags" are in the baggage compartment. Everything elsE is stowed for T/O and Landing. I suspect that this is the case in airlines too and especially in legacy carriers. If not, than there is some blame on the CC or the pax justified, NOT the pilots.

Train drivers braking vs. pilot braking ? REALLY ? What about the emergency brake in trains, cushioned off as well ? As in "not to upset me" ?


I am puzzled by your reply - we are discussing here about 'normal' procedures -
train drivers do not use emergency braking except well erm in an emergency and they often have 2 or even 3 types of brake to use depending on the kit they are driving

Re flying I was merely pointing out in the increase of harsh barking used on landing seemingly to enable quick exits off runways - if you read my post correctly you will get my point

of course pax are strapped in but being chucked forward restrained by their belts decelerating from 150mph to 40mph in a couple of seconds is not nice for the pax just so matey has to clear the runway as someone is up his behind

[kaikohe76]

Anyone else apart from those at the sharp end, who think they can do better, would be welcome to try!

[flash8]

Seems obvious that he should have immediately made an announcement blaming the FO.
As has happened on many an occasion even if it were an autoland!

[Private jet]

Look, every professional pilot does good, "cat peeing on glass" type landings but on some other occasions, often for no discernible reason, real "thumpers". As long as the machine isn't damaged it makes zero difference to anybody's day. The wittiest passenger comment I heard after a firm arrival was "Did we land or were we shot down?"

[pithblot]

PJ

If a picture paints a thousand words, then Centaurus' description "Assault Landing on Innocent Runway" is the exception that proves the rule.

B737 Assault Landing on Innocent Runway (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/568052-b737-assault-landing-innocent-runway.html?highlight=Assault+landing)

Links to this. (https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B735,_Jos_Nigeria,_2010)


.

[Capn Bloggs]

The wittiest passenger comment I heard after a firm arrival was "Did we land or were we shot down?"
OK, here we go: No 1 FA: "Welcome to XXX and I think we just struck oil!".

[Rolercoaster79]

Wow! In your own words, an excellent flight with excellent service from the cabin crew, then the "pilots" - apparently both of them - ruined your day by maybe taking a last minute instruction from ATC to take the next exit and "expedite", and complying with that possible instruction, all for your safety? And you might have felt a small increased pressure from that lapstrap that you still had fastened. Maybe better not to fasten your belt next time, 'cos you'd never want any discomfort from that ruining your day in a serious emergency, would you?

You've come on here to gripe about some braking which undoubtedly was done for safety and not just for the fun of doing it to ruin your day. It doesn't take much to upset you! Truly awful. I hope you have recovered from what must have been a terrifying and shocking experience. The acceleration on take off can sometimes be a bit severe too, especially on those shorter runways, so maybe complain to the pilots (both of them, remember - jointly and severally guilty of such gross misconduct) about that as well. Everything just for your ultimate comfort, b0II0(&$ to everyone else's safety. Heaven forbid they ever dared an emergency descent after an explosive decompression. "Take it down real slow, we'd never want any complaints from binzer back there, would we". Let everyone pass out with hypoxia rather than upset old 'whinger binzer'!

Might I respectfully suggest only travelling by foot from now on, as cars, even trains sometimes have to brake more sharply than the driver might wish, purely for the safety of their passengers and themselves. Oh, what a rotten world, with cars and trains and planes with brakes, and the drivers / pilots sometimes having to use them.

Might you have over-indulged from the generosity of the cabin crew and this was the real cause of your belly-ache?

Just askin'!

Congratulations for this post! Love it 👌👍

[Centaurus]

I HAVE flown a lot recently with different airlines mostly legacy, and have noticed a sharp increase in very harsh braking on landing to make a quick turn off - pax and bags and everything else thrown forward and quite disconcerting for many pax -
IMO this is not really a safe normalised procedure of the day as mentioned by someone above

Back in the 1960's I was co-pilot to the Commanding Officer of the RAAF VIP Squadron. The passengers were the then Prime Minister of Australia Sir Robert Menzies. and his wife Dame Pattie Menzies. Sir Robert was a splendid orator and could dismiss political opponents or mouthy constituents with a wonderful turn of phrase.
We were flying a Convair 440 Metropolitan from Canberra to Melbourne's Essendon Airport. It was a gusty windy day landing Runway 35. Wind northerly 20 gusting 35 knots with a crosswind. The CO was over-controlling all the way down to the flare, then see-sawed the control column with huge pull and pushes trying to get a smooth touch-down. He often did that even in no wind and usually greased it. But this was not his day and as co-pilot I was quick to protect my private parts lest the control column squashed them as the CO held off.

We floated and floated and eventually the Convair gave up in disgust and fell on to the runway with a resounding crash which caused the mini-bar cabinet and flower pots to burst open scattering their contents all over the plush VIP carpet. Full reverse made things worse as did the CO's harsh braking and I guess to the Prime Minister it must have seemed mayhem had broken loose. I was certainly impressed at the noise and effectiveness of full reverse and heavy braking. The steward was less than impressed at the broken miniature bottles and smell of whisky. Down the back, both the PM and his wife Dame Patti Menzies hung on for dear life. But we made it and taxied sedately to the VIP tarmac where the PM's Commonwealth car driver was waiting..

It was the habit of the Prime Minister to visit the flight deck before leaving the aircraft and graciously thanking the captain for the flight. The steward opened the flight deck door and the Prime Minister entered and recognised the Commanding Officer in the left seat. With a fixed smile, the CO turned to accept the PM's greeting. His smile soon vanished when Sir Robert said quite gravely, "Thank you, Wing Commander - we arrived here safely despite your efforts."

With that, the PM donned his hat and rugged up against the wind, walked unsteadily down the stairs of the Convair and into the relative safety of his Government limousine. Back in the cockpit I stifled a laugh and pretended not to notice the killer look by my Commanding Officer, who by the way, wore the decoration of the Air Force Cross & Bar; the latter having been recommended by Sir Robert only a few months earlier. He probably regretted it after that landing.

[blind pew]

Famous royal flight on the gripper...chief pilot and head of training, the pair of them famous for tent peg landings which led to the main spars being repaired on the T3 fleet. Probably the blokes responsible for the myth of positive touchdowns needed on wet runways which continues to this day.
After landing in Zagreb...Phil opens the door "If you are looking for your Trident it's up my ar$e"..
No doubt discussed at the next guild knees up...two masters and the president.
ps..P3 told the story for years of how he pulled a CB to allow them to fly at Mdesign to keep the noise down.

[john_tullamarine]

and eventually the Convair gave up in disgust and fell on to the runway with a resounding crash

.. a delightful bit of imagery ..

[Uplinker]

It is polite and simple good manners to apologise if one smashes it in. HOWEVER, sadly, we were told that certain passenger toe-rags will make whiplash claims etc. if a PA is made after a heavy landing, so now we don’t say anything, (but I apologise to the crew in the crew bus :ok:).

At Gibralter, a ‘carrier deck’ landing is kind of necessary, and the pax all understand this. Otherwise, have a bit of thought and respect for the structure and components of your aircraft.

Harsh braking though? No. Would you do it in your car for no apparent reason and say nothing to your passengers? In an aircraft; unless you have reached the red and whites and the end of the runway is fast approaching, just go to the next exit. We are supposed to be in control and capable of conducting a smooth flight, so harsh or heavy braking will be regarded as an emergency situation by the passengers who will find it extremely unpleasant. Don’t float halfway down the runway, and don’t deliberately linger, but if the next arrival is too close behind, that is not your problem. (Unless you were asked to make a certain exit - in which case you can plan accordingly - or the flight behind has declared an emergency).




Lots of old jokes about hard landings. My favourite is: “Young man, did we land or were we shot down!?”

[ShyTorque]

I was once "landed" at Luton on an MOD trooper flight from Germany. The landing was "more than positive", undoubtedly due to the strong crosswind. Some of the overhead lockers burst open and some oxygen masks self deployed. There were a few loud yells from some pax as the aircraft wagged its tail all the way to a standstill. I was sitting by the front port door, opposite one of the cabin crew and her face was an absolute picture! I did ask her if the co-pilot would be apologising and she just said "Be thankful we're still alive!" I asked if he often landed like that and she just raised her eyebrows!

[tescoapp]

Am I the only skipper that apologises and takes the blame even if the fo was on the controls?

I always see it as my fault I let them do a crap one. Plus if it's due bollocks wx I think the punters take it better thinking it's the captain.

That said my worst landings have been in flat calm cavok.. the max xwind, gusty as a night on a veggie curry are always silk even if I want them firmer.

[Chesty Morgan]

It wasn’t my fault, it wasn’t the FOs fault, it wasn’t the aeroplane’s fault it was the......................................................... .....................................Asphalt.

[Helix Von Smelix]

Was once on a BA 747 back to LHR. Strong gusting cross winds, could feel the aircraft being pushed around at the back. Perfect landing. The Captain came on the PA after landing saying his FO had made the landing and would be available for autographs at the exit door.

[Judd]

Re flying I was merely pointing out in the increase of harsh barking used on landing seemingly to enable quick exits off runways
In many cases, company and/or noise abatement requirements dictate pilots only use reverse idle after touch down. So harsh braking to make a quick exit is invariably the usual result.

[blind pew]

How about some of you guys remembering that you are transporting human beings, many of which are frightened of flying, rather than vegetables!
I would say fruit but that needs gentle handling.
So harsh breaking and throwing an aircraft onto and sometimes into the ground is now acceptable?
Or is it a lack of ability or intelligence.
I remember being boll@cked in my early days from hitting every cat's eyes on 28 right by a hairy old captain during a low viz take off.
"Yes ace you've proved that you can keep her in the middle but what do you think our first class passengers are thinking".

[BluSdUp]

I just read your post and think a bit of harsh barking upon landing is good thing!

[old,not bold]

One of my favourite Cabin Crew PA announcements after a bounced landing with quite a lot of float in a Gulf Air F27 was; "Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe that we have completed our final landing at XXXX,.............."

[FougaMagister]

I never apologize for that. Then again, we freight dogs don't need to... :E

Cheers :cool:

[SloppyJoe]

People complaining about a recent increase in harsh braking events. New airbus aircraft have an autobrake function called BTV (brake to vacate), it seemingly does nothing until very close to the exit you have preselected, it then brakes very harshly to make the exit. As someone who flies a new airbus, I hate it, but we are told to use it as it saves costs as reduces brake wear, it also reduces runway occupancy times. Unfortunately I think you will find it becomes the new norm on new aircraft and so you will notice it more and more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_to_Vacate

[rog747]

People complaining about a recent increase in harsh braking events. New airbus aircraft have an autobrake function called BTV (brake to vacate), it seemingly does nothing until very close to the exit you have preselected, it then brakes very harshly to make the exit. As someone who flies a new airbus, I hate it, but we are told to use it as it saves costs as reduces brake wear, it also reduces runway occupancy times. Unfortunately I think you will find it becomes the new norm on new aircraft and so you will notice it more and more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_to_Vacate
Ah that explains a lot as many of my recent flights have been in A320 family a/c - The brake to vacate is not kind to passengers !

[Kerosine]

Aggressive braking to vacate is definitely a theme. I brief FOs to plan a comfortable exit based on perf calcs... it’s not an achievement, after an stretching the flare for a smooth TD, to then slam the brakes on just to make E at Gatwick.

Regarding all this talk of ‘maybe they were told to vacate at next exit’... Being told to vacate at [whichever] taxiway is almost never a flight safety request, and if followed by flight crew too eagerly at the wrong moment it can certainly become one.

A well planned landing IAW landing performance calcs shouldn’t be a hard braking excercise... in the exception of performance limiting length (rare for most European A320/B737 commercial ops!).

[Kerosine]

In many cases, company and/or noise abatement requirements dictate pilots only use reverse idle after touch down. So harsh braking to make a quick exit is invariably the usual result.

Just a note about the physics involved with reversers and brakes, and how it’s often misunderstood....

To go from, for example, 130 kts at the threshold to 50 kts at the rapid exit over 1500 m landing distance, is exactly the same deceleration rate whether you use max reverse or not. Idle reverse means hotter brakes, as they’re are doing all the work, but the deceleration rate (and associated sensations as pax/crew) are unchanged.

The only case where reversers offer an absolute increase in deceleration rate is where your are already using max braking.

[Fantome]

As I suppose . . a bit of an aside. ... W/C Harry Purvis RAAF was in command of a transport wing during the Second World War. . . He had a new recruit as an FO who had just come out of his basic training at Point Cook . . A confidential note in his file was addressed to Harry . . "Do what you can with this man. He is the sort who pulls on doors marked 'Push'. " Harry had a load of army top brass to take from Brisbane to Melbourne, with a stop in Sydney. Harry gave the landing in Sydney to the FO. He kangarooed the C47 down the runway. Taxying in Harry said to him to go back and make an apology to the passengers.
A week later Harry encountered one of those army senior ranks, who said to Harry that the young sprog had said to them, after the awful landing, that "Wing Commander Purvis is sorry about that arrival just now. He asked me to say of late he has been flying a desk and is hence a bit rusty".

[thunderbird five]

"I never apologise for anything. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am."
Homer J. Simpson