Spin Training.

[sennadog]

There doesn't seem to be any up to date threads on this one, so I have a few questions.

As a freshly minted PPL (I'm still waiting for my Licence) I am determined to do some Spin Training as I see it as more or less "mandatory" to help make me a safer and better pilot - to me it's the aviation equivalent of skid training in a car after first getting your driving licence.

I have received the following advice so far:

"Wait until you have a few more hours under your belt and then you will derive more benefit from the training as you will be more experienced."

My view is that it's never too early and this is a good time whilst I'm still in training mode.

"It's a waste of time. Most spins occur under 1000ft - with this altitude, you'll never recover in time anyway."

Well, maybe that's true but I'd prefer to at least have the skills to go down trying.

"More pilots were injured during spin training than actual incidents - why bother, it's dangerous!"

Well, is it? It seems to me that at some stage a pilot should do some spinning but I don't know how "dangerous" it is.

"Spinning is great fun!"

Is it? I hope so although I think that to begin with I'm going to be scared silly!

"Spinning is horrible, you'll hate it!"

Is it? I may hate it but is it still worth it?


As you can tell, I'm convinced that it is a good idea but I'm interested in opinions from more experienced pilots as to when, what and where I should do the training.

Over to you guys/gals.

[Southern Cross]

Senna Dog

The comments that you quoted in your post are, each and every one of them, utter horse**** other than the "Spinning is great fun", IMHO of course...

Consider that spinning used to be in the syllabus for a PPL - at least in NZ and, I believe in the UK although I am not entirely sure about that.

You now have your PPL and looking to improve various aspects of your flying skills and repertoire. Learning to spin an aeroplane safely not only will teach you how to recover should you ever enter a spin inadvertently, but is also an intelligent precursor to starting aerobatics, should you be interested in that.

Even if you don't particularly like it, spin training will never be detrimental to your flying skills and it may awaken your interest in a different type of flying.

Enjoy.

[Evo7]

Couple of threads I remember: here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13578&highlight=phobia) and here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42034&highlight=spin+training)

[sennadog]

Cheers Evo.

This leads me on to my next question. For the immediate future I am probably only going to fly Katanas and C-172s. Should I be looking for an aircraft that handles/spins in a similar way to either of these two or does it not matter?

In the UK, Katanas are not rated for spinning and I'm not sure about the C-172 so I guess the closest would be a C-152 but this has a high wing as opposed to the low wing of the Katana - does this make any difference?

[Final 3 Greens]

Sennadog

At your stage of experience, one thing that I would recommend is having some extra lessons with an instructor based on handling at low speeds and in various configurations.

I'm not trying to put you off spin training, but I was lucky enough to receive a couple of hours training on slow speed handling and it is was very valuable.

I remember flying a Warrior at 45KIAS (must have been some position error I reckon), with full flaps and being able to control it easily despite the ridiculous pitch angle and the stall warning going beserk.

Although we all learn slow speed handling early in the PPL, looking again post PPL is good, as you will "feel" much more now that before.

I started flying out of grass strips some time afterwards and knowing that I could fly accurately at VS1.3 on short final was a big help - directly due to the training I had.

Cheers F3G

[sennadog]

Final 3 Greens .

Good advice, I actually had another lesson yesterday and that was one of the things that we did. It's amazing how much more relaxed I was and my flying was much better as a consequence which must be due to some of the pressure being off I suppose.

[distaff_beancounter]

sennadog

From what I have heard, spinning training used to be compulsory for the UK PPL, & I believe that it had to be done BEFORE the first solo. The CAA withdrew this requirement about 12-15 years ago, firstly because the spin training at this early stage, was considered too dangerous. Secondly too many students were being totally put off flying. No doubt one of the old-timers can confirm or correct this.

Whilst training for my PPL, I was always hearing about the perils of inadvertant spins, & that made my nervous. So, once I had got my licence, I was very keen to get the whole think clear in my mind, by trying spinning. The first aircraft I went spinning in was an aged C150 Aerobat. The first spin, was demonstarted by the instructor & was terrifying, but only because I was infamiliar with how an aircraft behaved, when being forced into a spin. Once I had had a go, & found just how easy it was to get a C150, out of a spin... I thought "well that was fun" :) . When can I try it again?

Since then I have been spinning in a Bulldog Pup & a Citabria. All 3 of these types, are supposed to be easy to spin & more importantly to recover from spins. The easiest was probably the C150. It always gave me the impression, that even if you screamed & let go of all the controls, it would still waffle inself out of the spin. (BUT please don't try this at home :D ). For a first spinning lesson, I would choose a docile spinning aircraft, such as C150/C152 & an instructor, who you really trust.

So, sennadog, my advice would be the same as it was for me. Go & get it out of your system. For me, it got over all my fears of inadvertant spins, & its FUN FUN FUN :cool:

[sennadog]

I'll have to find an instructor that I trust then. Unfortunately, there are no aircraft at my Club that are suitable for spinning and the instructor who has been recommended to me is now on holiday!

Needless to say, I'm impatient and don't want to wait and looking at the weather outside I want to do it NOW!:D

Why can't I get involved with pastimes that are not expensive?:confused:

Champagne tastes, beer income!:mad:

[Who has control?]

I was spun in a C152 as part of my PPL. It wasn't part of the syllabus but my instructor likes aeros so who was I to stop him.

The first one was terrifying, but from then one it got easier. The worst part was the waiting, knowing that this flight was the one when we would do the dreaded SPINS!!

Do it, it will be good experience.

[englishal]

A little bit off topic, but.............Anyone see 'A plane is born'? on Discovery? I remember one episode when he (can't remember his name...the manic bloke) did some spin training. I was surprised to see he was spinning an Archer II (or Warrior II). I thought that neither of these was certified for intentional spinning...?

Cheers
EA:)

[distaff_beancounter]

englishal

Yes, I have seen various aircraft being spun, or doing aerobatics, that are not certified for it. I am not sure of the legalities. Is it an offence under the ANO or whatever?

I remember discussing this with an experienced engineer. His answer was that there are a lot of light aircraft that are not certified for spinning, but this is not for the obvious reasons, such as the airframe would be overstressed, or the wings drop off etc.

The reason is, that they will spin very well, with no harm to the airframe, BUT, they are extremely difficult to get out of a spin :(

[Fly Stimulator]

sennadog,

I believe you may be at Redhill. If so, There's an Aerobat for hire here (http://www.theflyingschool.co.uk/) and I think they can sort out an instructor too.

[Field In Sight]

The guy off the Telly was Mark Evans. I am looking forward to his new program "A Chopper Is Born" that is starting this month.

I did spins after about 6 hours. Probably not the best time for most students but I found them enjoyable.

Hopefully I will be instructing by early next year so I may get to do them regularly.

[Fly Stimulator]

The guy off the Telly was Mark Evans. I am looking forward to his new program "A Chopper Is Born" that is starting this month.

It has already started! The final set of episodes is on Discovery Home & Leisure this coming Tuesday.

If it's anthing like 'A Plane Is Born' (or 'A Car Is Born' for that matter) there'll be no shortage of repeats though!

[Field In Sight]

FS,

You are dead right there. I have a Tivo box and I work away all week. The program is repeated about 10 times a week and it fills up the hard disk.

It is still very good though.

[Father Mulcahy]

Sennadog,

Have you thought about an aerobatics course. Not only will you get plenty of spins, but flight into and recoveries from unusual attitudes will be very useful. Moreover, you should have a parachute and the aircraft will probably have the facility for jettisoning doors etc (remember even the very best pilots get it wrong sometimes). Plus some of the more exotic aero types require a totally correct recovery technique - again good practice. - Maybe even get a taildragger rating out of it at the same time. (

Alternatively, try your local gliding club. I think that the BGA syllabus still requires proper spin training and I'm sure someone on staff would oblidge.

Englishal, Warriors, Cadets & Archers are not cleared for intentional spinning, but I seem to recall the old Cherokee 140's are. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm way off.


Father Mulcahy

[MLS-12D]

Spin training is certainly a good idea, and is nothing to be feared.

I don't know why spins were removed from the PPL(A) flight test, as it is good fun and not particularly difficult.

I don't agree that it's a waste of time because most spins happen too low to recover. Intentional spinning is also a relatively safe way to get down through an overcast if you are ever caught 'on top' (although you need to ensure that the ceiling ends a reasonable distance above the ground, obviously).

I confess that I have never spun a 172 (deliberately or otherwise :D), but my copy of the POH for the 172N indicates that "intentional spins are approved in this airplane within certain restrictions".

No real need for a heavy session at the books, but if you want to do some reading as part of your training two references that you might find helpful are:

(1) Sammy Mason, "Stalls, Spins, and Safety" (McGraw-Hill, 1982);
(2) Dunstan Hadley, "Only Seconds to Live: Pilots' Tales of the Stall and the Spin" (Airlife, 1997)

Have fun,

MLS-12D:)

P.S. Distaff is right, the 150/152 will usually come out of a spin on its own given half a chance; much like a Schweizer 2-33. I don't recommend the 150/152 because it is not easy to provoke into a spin and unless you know what you are doing you often wind up in a spiral dive, which wastes time and may leave you with a false impression of what a spin looks/feels like. I'd suggest a Piper Tomahawk for your spin training.

[AerBabe]

Like Who Has Control I did spinning as part of my PPL training, even though it wasn't part of the syllabus. I only had about 5 hours experience though, and was still a bit nervous. Fortunately my instructor didn't warn me in advance, so I couldn't worry about it! I'd like to do a bit more too, although I'm not quite ready for full-blown aerobatics :eek:

[englishal]

I believe that part of the certification process to allow an aircraft to be certified for intentional spinning, is that it will recover itself within a reasonable time, with no pilot input, assuming C&G and W&B limits are correct.

A 172 is certified in the Utility cat, though for someone like me, 6'1" weighing a good few Kg, I calculated I can only carry about 10 Gals of fuel :-) (or a very small passenger)

Cheers
EA;)

[Tiger_ Moth]

I've done some spinning and it was really good fun.
I think it is definitely worthwhile because it gives you confidence as you know even if you lose control you'll be able to recover (given height). It's not enough to just be told how, you have to do it for yourself.

Most unintentional spins do occur low down but that's no reason to not bother taking precautions as many planes could be recovered if they spun from under a 1000ft. You might as well give yourself a chance.

By the way some of you mentioned that more people are killed in spin training than in actual spins. I find this hard to believe. What time period does that cover?

[Hersham Boy]

sennadog

I think we've conversed on this topic... I actually did a couple of spins during the stalling/slow flight stage of my training (with an experienced instructor I trust sitting next to me, of course!) and they ARE fun and I DO want to do an aeros rating as soon as I can (providing I can keep The Bird in the dark - she's NOT keen).

Anything you can master that helps you're overall skill and control of the a/c has to be a good idea, I would think.

Hersh

[FormationFlyer]

Hi folks!

Lets start debunking some myths eh?...

Spinning *is* in the UK PPL & JAR PPL & UK NPPL Syllabus. Always has been always will be.

Ex 11A Spin Avoidance - Incipient spin recovery - IS MANDATORY. If you have NOT received this training then your club has been negligent.

Ex11B Fully developed spins - are OPTIONAL under UK PPL, UK NPPL & JAR PPL. But none the less its STILL in the syllabus.

The reason this became optional was partly due to accidents and partly due to not all organisations having aircraft which were cleared for spinning.

Mark Evans flew from Aeros at Gloucester. The aircraft is a PA28 Cherokee 140 G-SCPL. The aircraft is cleared for spinning - it is another myth that *all* PA28s are not cleared for spinning - some *are*. I did my PPL spinning in it and 7 spins later came down for some tea... :)

Hope this helps.

[Father Mulcahy]

On the new Cirrus, the spin recovery technique is to deploy the ballistic chute !.

So consider yourself fully trained in spinning the Cirrus SR22. Not that they'd probably let you lose on $350.000 worth of plastic aeroplane, but you could ask ;)

[sennadog]

Hersham Boy , yes mate we have but unfortunately your man is away on holiday and as always I'm impatient!:D

FormationFlyer , it's Ex.11b that I'm after. Does anyone know why the Katana is not certified for spinning in the UK and yet (I believe I'm correct in saying) it is in the US?

[Final 3 Greens]

Father Mulcahy

The PA28-140 is cleared for spinning in the utility category, but the Warrior, Cadet and Archer are not.

The latter are developments of the former, wihth a different wing and modified fuselage and their aerodynamic characteristics can allegedly result in a flat spin with far rear C of G.

Not sure how much product liability issues in the US impact on this decision though!

[distaff_beancounter]

I have read about this & seen it on TV. (sorry folks .... off topic again!)

BUT, what I would like to know is, at what stage to you decide that you can do nothing further, as the pilot, & that it is preferable to leave you fate to a parachute, that is presumably unsteerable?

I can understand ejecting, wearing a parachute, from a doomed aircraft, but I can't imagine pulling the lever for the chute, on the back of the Cirrus.

Is this as much a matter for HPL, as flying skills? :confused:

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Intentional spinning is also a relatively safe way to get down through an overcast if you are ever caught 'on top' (although you need to ensure that the ceiling ends a reasonable distance above the ground, obviously).

MLS-12D, remind me never to fly with you.

[MLS-12D]

Hi Whipper,

I am not suggesting that anyone deliberately spin into the overcast for fun.

Good planning should ensure that a VFR pilot never gets 'caught on top' to begin with. But if that ever happens, a spin is a stabilized, low-G, controlled manuever that will bring the aircraft down in one piece.

PROVIDED that there is adequate altitude for a recovery under the ceiling, a spin through the overcast is far safer than trying to let down on instruments (assuming that one is not trained and current on instrument flight, of course). As study after study has shown, the VFR pilot in IMC will invariably let the aircraft fall into a spiral dive and more than likely rip the wings and/or tail off ... not my idea of fun.

This is not a pleasant subject but I don't see that it is any less real a concern than inadvertantly spinning in.

MLS-12D

[Saab Dastard]

sennadog,

You should definitely do some full spins, as you will then recognise one if you should ever inadvertently get into one.

I did a fair few spins in gliders - definitely part of mandatory pre-solo training - and while I can't say I really enjoyed doing them, I didn't think it was too bad.

I think that one should be able to recover a spin in 1000' - most often the problem is recognizing that it is a spin and doing the right things to correct it in time. "Stick and Rudder" has a very readable section on this.

The more you practice, the more instinctive the recovery technique becomes.

I'm certainly glad that I have full spin recovery experience, albeit in gliders, cos I've only flown Warriors.

SD

[Croqueteer]

MLS, what you say is perfectly correct, but a less dramatic way of getting down through cloud if you have allowed yourself to get into this situation and you have no instrument training of significance is to trim the a/c in a glide, fold your arms, and keep (1) the DI on a constant heading, (2) the turn needle or indicator showing no turn, or keep the horizon level using your feet only! Try it, it works, and years ago an ex stu of mine thanked me for saving his life when he got into such a situation. (Yes I know, I should have taught him better)

[Final 3 Greens]

SAAB

Recognising the incipient spin and stopping it developing low down is a good thing - i.e. ex11a.

I doubt that many typical PPLs (myself included) would have much chance once the spin was fully developed, since a typical loss per rotation must be 5-600 feet depending on type.

[MLS-12D]

Croqueteer,

I agree, your method would work and would certainly be the preferred option if there was any doubt as to whether the ceiling was high enough to permit a recovery.

The spin technique is primarily for wave soaring when the 'window' closes below you; usually (!) no ceiling difficulties in such situations.

MLS-12D

[Final 3 Greens]

MLS

I think I read a "I learned about flying from that" years ago, where a pilot spun through cloud in South America, only to find himself in a volcano crater!

[BayAreaLondoner]

Sennadog,

I've been thinking about getting some spin training too with a CFI. I learnt in a Katana and have subsequently moved to 172s.
According to my Katana DA-20A1 POH reprint, which appears to cover the Transport Canada certified version, the Katana can be spun. It has the following cautions:

"Intentional spinngin is only permitted with flaps in UP position"

"Depending on CG and spin entry technique, attempts to enter spins may develop into spiral dives. Monitor the airspeed during the first turn and recover immediately if it increases to 70KIAS."

"Spins with aft CG may oscllate in yaw rate and pitch attitude. This has no effect on recovery procedure or recovery time."

Note that by stating the above, I am not advocating that you spin the Katana you have access to if it is spinning is prohibited in your region.

[sennadog]

BayAreaLondoner . Yes, I read that too in the POH but for some reason, the CAA (I believe) haven't certified the Katana in the UK, hence my question.

I just wondered why that was the case if it's possible in the US.:confused:

[formationfoto]

Sennadog
I guess this has to be a matter of choice. Distaff asks for old timers to confirm that spinning used to be part of the manadatory training for the PPL. Fortunately I just fall outside of her classification as spin training for PPLS was removed just before I took my PPL about 14 years ago (it could have been 13 or 15 as age muddles the brain!). Despite not being a requirement I allowed my instructor to show me how to spin a C150 Aerobat and it was great. (not the same instructor who insisted on showing me how to loop in the circuit who was a couple of blades short of a full prop!).
Now spin the delightful Chipmunk and cant see what the fuss is about.

I tend to fly aircraft through a broad envelope when positioning for interesting photo shots and it is interesting to see how often owners have never got near the edges of their aircrafts operating limits. Nothing wrong with this but should they get in to such a position they won't have much of an idea what to do. Even if you don't go out for aeros I reckon some unusual attitude, spin, and semi aero manouvring would be very enlightening and enjoyable but don't say I told you so if you happent o feel a little sickly first time out.

[stiknruda]

Senna,

I don't believe that spin training should be mandatory, but congratulate you on wanting to improve your ab-initio trg with a lesson on spins.

My only concern is that the C150Aerobat does not spin very well and is often flicked into the spin, not the gentlest of entries and you may find that off-putting.

If funds allow I'd suggest that you start with competition type entries in a 2 seat aerobatic mount.

I spin a lot but every so often a " rogue" spin has me over rotating and not exiting on my chosen line. A 2 turn spin in the Pitts takes 1100' and the first turn really is only the entry, if I do 3 or 4 turns it really starts to wind up but will exit just as quickly.

In-spin/out-spin aileron and throttle settings all make it behave VERY differently and if flicked into the spin it will wind up far more rapidly, too.

Enjoy.


Stik

[Bouncy Landing]

Full spinning AND demonstratring your ability recover satisfactorially did used to be a compulsory part of the CAA PPL. I did mine back in 1982 and spent a stomach churning 90 minutes watching the Norfolk countryside rotate in front of me.

Having revalidated in recent times and only had to demonstrate "an awareness of and abillity to recover from" incipient spinds, I can assure you they are nothing to the real Mc'Coy!

Brings back full spins - valuable experience at the very least.

For info aircraft was a Tomahawk.

[GroundBound]

Don't like the idea of being an old-timer .... but I got my PPL (the first time) in 1966. Yes, spins were part of the syllabus, then, we used C150's (one of which I recently saw a picture of in Today's Pilot, still flying!).

Doing your first solo spin was a very nerve-wracking event. Mine ended up in the predictable spiral dive, as I was too windy to do the manoeuvre properly. Finally managed two real spins on my own, though. The C150 will recover itself pretty easily, just by centralising the controls. You have to hold it in the spin to get several rotations.

However, some time later, during some refresher flying (following a year's absence), we tried a spin, and the instructor went white faced and shoved the nose down, saying I had nearly put us into an inverted spin, which was not recoverable. A sobering thought, and I still don't understand the difference - maybe someone here will enlighten me?.

I regained the PPL only recently, spin and stall training was part of the conditions. No instructor was prepared to do spins though - something which surprised me greatly.

Bottom line ... find an instructor who knows what he's doing, and learn them properly. They are not difficult and can be fun - however if you don't do them right, they can get you into trouble.

[FormationFlyer]

saying I had nearly put us into an inverted spin, which was not recoverable

Hmm... Maybe the instructor was commenting on a specific type with bad inverted characteristics...but inverted spins, flat spins and flat inverted spins and accelerated spins are generally ALL recoverable....

Check out a book called 'Spin Management & Recovery' by Michael C Love - an excellent book that covers ALL forms of spins...very very informative.

With regard to spinning down through cloud - you must be a idiot to do that. In the PA28 reduce the throttle to idle, select full flap, and trim aft FULLY to keep the nose up....and let go of the controls...suprisingly it enters a very mild and gentle spiral and leaves HUGE amount of time for recovery at the bottom at normal speeds in a sensible flight attitude....very enlightning when I was first shown this... (we were discussing descent thru cloud with NO instruments...i.e. ASI/ALT only...)

[Grim Reaper 14]

I was glad to discover that my logbook contains a rubber stamp saying that I have been trained in spin recovery....however, when you realise that I have only ever flown a Warrior, it certainly makes you wonder how!!:confused: :rolleyes:

[djpil]

Englishal stated:
"I believe that part of the certification process to allow an aircraft to be certified for intentional spinning, is that it will recover itself within a reasonable time, with no pilot input, assuming C&G and W&B limits are correct."

Nope - the requirement is to recover within one and a half turns. The "standard" method of spin recovery is often used but some aeroplanes may require specific control actions to recover with that time. For more info on spinning Cessnas take a peek at:
Taking Your Cessna For a Spin (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozaeros/files/Flight%20Operations/)

[Ludwig]

Spinning through cloud as a planned means of recovering to VMC sounds too stupid a plan to contemplate! If you have done a couple of one or two turn spins you may think it is easy peasy, but if the cloud is a couple of thousand feet thick and you have to spin say four or five turns, it could, on exiting cloud be going like a banshie; what height is required to recover from a five turn spin you should ask yourself. Bad plan

Better plan would be to spend a few quid with an instructor learning what the dials do.

Even beter plan, do an IMC/IR rating.

Back to spins. Neil Williams excellent classic "Aerobatics" talks about introducing people to spinning and comments that most instructors teaching spinning are not really that good at the entry. To paraphrase, he said that just at the point of stall they pull the stick hard back (for an erect spin) and stamp on the rudder, which gives a violent half flick entry to the spin, thus consigning another pilot to the ranks of the straight and level brigade.

Get a proper aerobatic instructor to show you how to do fully controlled, gentle spin entries is my advice, and then enjoy.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A note on spin certification.

All smaller fixed wing aeroplanes are spun during certification. Broadly speaking there are two levels of rigour to which this is done. One is a non-aerobatic certification programme, such as for example would have been done on the PA28; this is there to answer three questions, which are...

- Will it spin
- How does it spin
- Does it recover, and how

Any non-aerobatic aircraft with an excessive tendency to spin, or a severe reluctance to recover won't get certified. Some have suffered such problems but had them solved and a mod made to the aircraft before approval.

For an aerobatic or deliberate spinning clearance, a LOT more spinning is needed, included multiple turns, mishandled entries, mishandled recoveries, failure to close the throttle, etc, etc.

Manufacturers may go for a non-spinning clearance for one of two reasons. One is that they simply don't want to bear the cost of a full spinning test programme. The other is that the aircraft can pass the standard non-aerobatic criteria but has other characteristics (such as a tendency to wind-up, or perhaps enter a flat spin after a certain number of turns) which would make routine deliberate spinning severely inadvisable.

Only problem is, unless you were on the certification team, you don't know which is the reason!

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just noticed that Groundbound asked about inverted spins.

An erect spin, which we're all used to, occurs when the directions of yaw and roll are the same. An inverted spin occurs when the yaw and roll are in opposite directions, and you generally enter it by applying full rudder and full forward stick when flying inverted at just below the -Ve g stall.

Inverted spins are thoroughly unpleasant and disorienting, but very few aircraft show any particular desire to enter one, and they will usually recover on control centralisation. However, as much as anything due to loads on the airframe and pilot (I recall an inverted spin in a Tincano where both I in the back and my pilot in the front went briefly into G-LOC when it recovered from -2½g into a 4g pull-out, not an experience I've any great desire to repeat) I wouldn't contemplate inverted spinning something that isn't cleared to do so.

G

[SpinSpinSugar]

Ludwig - your post is interesting in that yes, that is exactly how every instructor I've flown with has initiated a spin (control yoke hard into chest and full rudder). I always presumed this was just to ensure clean entry into a "proper" spin, which is pretty important on Cessnas where you could just end up wallowing around in a half arsed spiral.

I remember once during spin demonstration on a 172 my instructor even found it necessary to blast the rudder with full throttle to get the thing to spin at all.

Have since spun C150s and C172s but the Tomahawk is certainly the best spin trainer I've flown in. Easy, positive initiation and recovery.

As regards the spin itself, I must say I didn't enjoy it that much as a passenger first time out, but when you have the controls yourself it really is great fun, and a much gentler manoeuvre than a spiral dive.

[flyboy6876]

Sennadog

I'm not sure if I'm reading your original post correctly, but, did you not even do incipient spin recovery during your PPL? This is a standard part of our training down under. I dislike doing it, but can understand the need for it.

I would recommend this training to anyone, having experienced a rather nasty spin after being kicked over turning crosswind when I first started flying. We recovered at below the headgear of a mine we were flying over at the time. If the reactions had not been "automatic" I'm pretty sure we would have plowed into the ground. It took me a long time to get over this, and that's why I dislike it, even at a 4000ft with a large bit of air underneath me.

So, my advice, learn how to recover from a spin, even though you may not enjoy the sensations that go with it. It could make a difference some day
:)

[MLS-12D]

It saddens me to see people making statements like "idiotic" and "stupid" when it comes to spinning through the overcast.

As I've already posted, this is an emergency manouvre only. Yes you can also try a stabilized descent with full flaps etc. but this may not work out so well if you are flying a glider or J-3 etc. without a turn coordinator let alone a attitude gyro (obviously it could be argued that no one should flying such a minimally-instrumented aircraft in conditions likely to lead to being 'caught on top' but these things do happen, as the accident records show).

Ludwig suggests that pilots "spend a few quid with an instructor learning what the dials do". Obviously this is good advice and I believe in most ICAO countries it is now mandatory that PPL applicants receive at least five hours of instrument time before licensing.

[englishal]

MLS-12D is quite correct. In the Golden Days of flight, this was a common and safe way of non gyro IMC let downs, and so long as you have enough room between the cloud and the ground, what is the problem? You'd have more problems trying to keep control with no gyros and flying down through IMC, so why not put the aircraft into a spin, in a known direction before you enter the clag?

Cherio
EA;)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Spinning,

I learned to fly in 1981 at Bankstown (Aust). If memory serves this was about the time that full spins were going from mandatory to optional and only incipient spins were required.

Fortunately for me I was at a school where it was still considered a bloody good idea to go the whole hog and we had an excellent aerobatics instructor who would take you for that lesson.

On lesson No 3 I was shown full spins, completed several myself and also was shown loops, rolls and stall turns...also completing several of each myself.

Post first solo I would always make sure I was in a C152A and spend 1/2 the period doing whatever I was supposed to do and the rest doing spins,loops,rolls and stall turns...I became a spinning/aeros nut:D

As soon as I finished my RPPL I did a Tailwheel endorsement with the same instructor in a Super Decathlon (180HP/CSU) that was on line and blew thousands flying aeros/spins instead of doing Navexs toward the full PPL.

I used to love doing inverted spins, using power to flatten them out and speed them up...even a 'normal' inverted spin is orders of magnitude more violent/uncomfortable and dissorientating than a positive spin.

Not a cent of that money was wasted!

Later when I got my CPL/Instructors rating I also did a 'spin approval'.

During that training I spun Tomahawks and they have a fascinating spin...starts off 'normal'...flattens out about turn 3 or 4 and when you recover it spins steeply nose down and faster before recovering normally...loved it!

When I started instructing I encourage my students to learn proper spins and even taught them basic aeros if we had an aerobat handy and they were in to it.

One day one of my students, who I had taught spins to previously, asked if we could do a practice spin on the way home from a 'precautionary search and landing' lesson.

To cut a long story short we spun from 4000' agl to somewhere under 300'agl...he did nothing wrong but the aircraft(C150) wouldn't recover so I took over about 3500' agl.

It took every second of every spin I'd ever been in to get us out..I let go of everything and waited several turns...nothing...I tried rocking us out with power/elevator...nothing...power/in spin aileron and full down elevator...nothing...by now I'd lost count of the turns but having done 6 and 8 turn spins before I reckon we went close to 15 or 20 turns, but that's a guess.

Finally full power and slamming the control column full forward with the full opposite rudder that had been held on most of the way down put us through the verticle into a steepish inverted dive from which I rolled out and gently pulled back to a climb...I have no idea how high we were when we started climbing away but having trimmed into a climb, handed over to the stude and lit a smoke with shaking hands, he asked me what was up...I pointed to the altimeter and we were passing through about 900' over terrain that probably averaged 200'amsl.

The stude had been blissfully ignorant the whole way down:eek:

Many people with vast experience of spinning, one of whom did the spinning trials for Australian certification of C150s offered advice on what may have happened...ranging from a 'rogue' spin to C of G problems. The aircraft had been built up from two that had been damaged in a cyclone in Queensland so perhaps it wasn't 'true'...I never got a definative answer and I believe a page was inserted in the flight manual banning that aircraft from further spinning.

I kept spinning aircraft after that but never with the gay abandon that I had before.

I still believe spinning should be mandatory training for PPL.

I still believe aerobatics should be mandatory for any licence.

Some will point to this as reason not to conduct spin training...I prefer to think that my training and extensive spin practice saved our lives.

I know that all that spinning and aeros saved my life on at least one more occasion while bush flying in the PNG Highlands in a C185 a year later...but that's a completely seperate 'I learned about Flying from that' story.

As a 'funny' postscript my stude rang me a week or so later and thanked me for saving his life....I pointed out that I was too busy saving mine to care much about his...but it was my pleasure anyway:D

By all means go and spin to your hearts content...but the 'gay abandonish' tone I get from some of these posts reminds me of me about 16 years ago.

Chuck.

[Final 3 Greens]

Flyboy

Incipient spinning is covered in the UK JAR PPL, but for some reason it is not regarded as "proper spinning" by most PPLs over here, the definition of which seems to be a fully developed spin.

I am a great believer in knowing how to (and staying current at) recovering at the incipient stage before things get really tricky ... especially at low altitude.

[a pilot]

Donno the prices in England but did some aerobatic training in a Pitts in USA at 260$ an hour including inverted spins and inverted flt,regular spins etc.,also done spins in cesna 150\150hp aerobat and regular c-172 as regular training.It is a scary thought to be flipped over by wake or turbulance or accidently spin without knowing if you can deal with it.Spin training stopped because of the lack of qualified instructors and planes that caused too many accidents.If you could get some aerobatic and spin training-do it!

[Circuit Basher]

Half my training was done in Canada, where full spin training is still mandatory part of the syllabus. I quite enjoyed this in a C172, although some days it took quite an effort to get it to spin, rather than spiral dive - I remember a whole hour of spins on a hot sunny day; I'm not usually one prone to going green, but I did gently mention to my instructor that I was beyond learning anything more and could we go home, please?! ;) By the end of around 3.5 hrs of spin / stall training, he was getting me to recover after a set number of turns and on a given heading - that was quite fun!!

That training has saved me from one possible incident in a C150 that dropped a wing in a stall straight into a spin when I was on a pre-PPL solo jolly trying to get my 10hrs solo up.

I am an advocate of full spin training (with exemption only if you get a signed chit from your mummy that you're prone to dashboard decorating ;) ;) ).

[Canadian Luscombe]

I remember my own spin training here in Canada. I had the same experience as you: eight spins in a row left me feeling nauseous. Best to limit this (important) training to, say, four or five spins at a time, otherwise the educational value begins to diminish!

BTW, Transport Canada deleted spins from the PPL flight test in 1999 (not without considerable opposition in some quarters). They do remain part of the training syllabus, as you say. Do UK pilots receive no training in fully developed spins? :confused: Hard to believe!

[Circuit Basher]

Canadian Luscombe

As previously mentioned, it has not been mandatory to do fully developed spins for around 10 years in the UK; the option remains, but it is only mandatory to demonstrate recovery from incipient spins. In my GFT, I just about got to the stage where one wing was lower than the other after a close-on stall when the examiner told me to recover! We were in a PA28-140 (which I have never had the guts to try and spin on my own, due to alleged potential difficulties with recovery) which may explain it - I'd always been told NOT to try to spin any PA28 variant.

I was always nervous about spins, but now am able to have the confidence that I could handle one if I inadvertently entered one - it may take a time for me to recognise the difference between a spin and a spiral these days due to lack of practice (yes, I know - look for the attitude, ASI, etc, but it's difficult to do if your eyes are shut !!);) ;)

[Flash0710]

Quick Tip

A few years ago an Austrailan Instructor and student were killed when the Rudder jammed in the fully left position in a C150. thus spinning in .

Another instrutor simulated this afterwards and simply opened the opposite door.

May save someone else one day ......

Spin safe it's a must.

[MLS-12D]

Here's a reference that may be of interest: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/flttrain/mis/spin/spin.htm

[strake]

Yes indeedy, spinning was on the syllabus all those years ago...well, 1984 anyway.

As you can see from my sign-off, I think both spin training and spin refresher training (in certified aircraft) is a vital part of learning and currency. A "real" spin, ie not purposely entered, will normally be encountered near the ground....ya gotta be quick to get out of it and that can only come with practice.

[sennadog]

Well, I went for my first lesson yesterday in a C-152. It was, shall we say, very interesting!

The A check took a lot longer than normal, as it was different to the Katana that I normally fly and my first impressions are that it was a bit beaten up but it looked like a pretty strong aircraft. It was much easier to taxi than a Katana and during the take off felt more "damped" but it climbs out nicely and I did notice that you have to bob the nose down more frequently to get an idea of what is below you. The view of the ground is much better with the hight wing but I prefer to have a better view of the air around me, I have to say.

Did some stalls and I was, as usual a bit nervous, wanting to restore power and attitude as soon as possible. I did a few of these and got the hang of it, which gave me a lot more confidence.

Wow, did I learn something though. You can hold the yoke back for as long as you want and provided you control the yaw with the rudders, it ain't going to do anything nasty. I was pleased that I instinctively counteracted any yaw with opposite rudder - again a morale booster. I've not noticed this before with the Katana, probably because it's so benign.

So, to the spins.

The instructor demonstrated the first one and I nearly freaked out!:eek: I thought my days were over but luckily this guy is so laid back he's virtually comatose so he inspires confidence.

The second one he demonstrated and I started to see what was happening and my brain was "slowing" things down so I could get an idea of what to do.

Did I do one? Nah, I wussed out. Having said that I want to do things at my own pace and I reckon on the next lesson, I'll get him to demonstrate one more and then I'll have a go. I've also asked him to include wing drops so that I can get proficient at them as well.

Got back to Redhill and I was amazed how easy it was to do a power on approach through base leg and onto final - from memory, I used 1500rpm and left it there until the threshold (actually, I forgot to chop the power as I was so amazed:D ) - much easier than a Katana as I find that I'm constantly adjusting the power at this stage. The instructor made a few compliments about my flying (probably to get me back:p ) which was nice but my eyeballs still hurt as a result of the spins. They feel a bit like the time I did a Bungee jump - I guess staring out in wide eyed terror with a bit of G doesn't always work - best close my eyes next time!

To sum up, I totally recommend to anyone who hasn't done any - Spin Training is definitely a good idea.

I'll keep you posted. I have a feeling that my first spin recovery may be as memorable as my Solo X Country.

[stiknruda]

Wuss?

I don't think so. At least you've experienced them.

Despite being very current it took me several deep breaths before I did my first solo spinning!

Those deep breaths are still required when I intentionally spin mine inverted about once every 4 to 5 weeks!

Stik

[Circuit Basher]

Well done, SD on losing your spin virginity! After a few hours of them, it gets to be moderately routine (although any one of them can jump up and bite you!!). It's a hell of an experience first time, though!! :D :D