Boeing to take over Embraer Commercial Aircraft Production

[Mister Blue Sky]

Boeing to take over Embraer Commercial Aircraft Production

https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/21513-boeing-takes-over-embraer-commercial-plane-production?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking_news_boeing_takes_over_embraer_commerc ial_plane_production_aerotime&utm_term=2018-07-05 (https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/21513-boeing-takes-over-embraer-commercial-plane-production?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking_news_boeing_takes_over_embraer_commerc ial_plane_production_aerotime&utm_term=2018-07-05)

[Foxdeux]

If in the past I had any doubt about Boeing and Airbus's duopoly, they have now been completely wiped out. Boeing + Embraer vs. Airbus + Bombardier.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Are Boeing at least paying more than a nominal dollar for "their" bit of Embraer??

[underfire]

The new company, encompassing Embraer’s commercial aircraft and services businesses, should make Boeing the market leader for smaller passenger jets, creating stiffer competition for the CSeries aircraft program designed by Canada’s Bombardier Inc (BBDb.TO (https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=BBDb.TO)) and backed by European rival Airbus SE (AIR.PA (https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=AIR.PA)).

The deal values Embraer’s commercial aircraft operations, the world’s third-largest, at $4.75 billion and Boeing’s 80-percent ownership stake in the joint venture at $3.8 billion, the companies said.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Yeah, but just because their stake is going to be valued at 3.8 billion doesn't mean that's what they are paying for it. I'm sure Airbus reckons their Cseries stake is worth more than the $1 they have paid!

[msbbarratt]

Hmm, well I strongly suspect that Embraer have entered into this deal with a degree of reluctance.

Had Bombardier stayed isolated, Embraer would likely have been able to compete solidly with anything coming out of Canada. With Airbus moving in on the act, due at least partly to Boeing bringing that failed trade dispute, Embraer cannot compete with that and are more or less forced to merge with Boeing.

Arguably Boeing needed Embraer more than Embraer needed Boeing, but once A+B became AirBardier there was no choice left. I fancy that Embraer's discussions with Boeing in recent months started off, "Well thanks Boeing, you've really screwed that up".

[atakacs]

Hmm a bit disappointing to see Embraer going. The duopoly is well and alive...

[Foxdeux]

Hmm, well I strongly suspect that Embraer have entered into this deal with a degree of reluctance.

Had Bombardier stayed isolated, Embraer would likely have been able to compete solidly with anything coming out of Canada. With Airbus moving in on the act, due at least partly to Boeing bringing that failed trade dispute, Embraer cannot compete with that and are more or less forced to merge with Boeing.

Arguably Boeing needed Embraer more than Embraer needed Boeing, but once A+B became AirBardier there was no choice left. I fancy that Embraer's discussions with Boeing in recent months started off, "Well thanks Boeing, you've really screwed that up".


A+B............why not BomBus.............oh wait nevermind

[NWA SLF]

Discussions that have going on for ages have maintained that Boeing needed engineering souls for the NMA and Embraer has manpower available. In addition Boeing has worked with Embraer on the KC390 and even though this only involves the commercial side, Boeing is able to market the KC390. This has always made a lot of sense with the increasing competition from Russia and China. Wouldn't be surprised to see 737s or even the Dreamliner built in Brazil to steer clear of the USA idiocy.

[Torquelink]

Still astonished they are prepared to let go 80%. They must have been facing a significant cash-crunch for them to have agreed to this.

[Global Aviator]

It’s not a duopoly... Mitsubishi Regional Jet, Sukhoi, Comac...

Oh wait.....

Yeah ok it’s a duopoly still, some of the above do look good thou!

[A0283]

@Torquelink Still astonished they are prepared to let go 80%. They must have been facing a significant cash-crunch for them to have agreed to this.

Would be interested in hearing more about the rationale of this move from the Embraer side ! Does anyone have a link to a good independent source on this?

In a strategic move you have to include such issues as Trumps approach to trade. A 49% US interest would have made more sense from that point of view.

Hope to hear more.

[er340790]

Wow. Almost at one fell swoop, 95% of civil airliner production has been swept into a cosy global Duopoly...

If ever the stage was set for China, possibly with Russian assistance, to announce its intentions to step onto the world aeronautical stage, that time surely has to be now.

My guess is the next 10 years in the aircraft manufacturing sector will be CONSIDERABLY more interesting than the last 10.

We'll see.

[Pizzacake]

How long before Boeing goes running back to the USgov citing that they now offer a small jet and that the silly % import tax should be applied to the c series after all. ???

[etudiant]

How long before Boeing goes running back to the USgov citing that they now offer a small jet and that the silly % import tax should be applied to the c series after all. ???
Difficult if the C series is built in Alabama....

[Iron Duck]

"Would be interested in hearing more about the rationale of this move from the Embraer side! Does anyone have a link to a good independent source on this?"

I'm not sure how independent you regard FlightGlobal to be:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-embraer-will-be-stronger-with-boeing-than-w-450001/ (may require login)

The interesting bit in this article is this: 'Consolidation has led to the rise of super-suppliers constructed to maximise leverage against Airbus and Boeing. Bombardier and Embraer both faced the prospect of negotiating with suppliers five to 10 times larger than themselves, to feed a regional and small narrowbody market that is tiny in comparison with the narrowbody operations at the big two.'

IOW, supplier consolidation means that both Bombardier and Embraer no longer have sufficient market clout to keep supplier costs under control. In business, if you cannot control costs, you're finished.

But duopoly? The real threats always come from unconsidered vectors. Here: https://quillette.com/2018/07/02/through-the-looking-glass-at-concordia-university/ a chap says: 'I had hoped sciences and engineering were somewhat insulated from the progressives. But if Media Studies students are Teaching Assistants in the College of Engineering, that means the progressives are infecting – yes, infecting – other departments than the social “sciences.” Yes, “sciences” because from what I can tell, true science has been all but abandoned in these fields. If they are truly spreading into the hard sciences and engineering, I fear for the bridges and skyscrapers n 20 years after our scientists and engineers are taught that physics and mathematics are products of the cis-white racist patriarchy and can be ignored for “your truth.”"

- to which a respondent replies: 'Would you fly in an airliner designed by someone who believes that ‘physics and mathematics are products of the cis-white racist patriarchy and can be ignored for “your truth.”’? And perhaps more to the point, would they? Perhaps it’s a non-question. Would it even fly? Would it ever make it out of the workshop? Not to worry. The Chinese are now making airliners.'
- which is a long-winded way of saying that The Duopoly's current engineering pre-eminence is not necessarily a given, in the long term. A fish rots from the head.

[underfire]

While selling the C Series made sense for Bombardier, Embraer selling to Boeing really doesnt make sense.

All E series sales combine orders 141.
The relevant E 190 (43) and 195 (5) total 48 orders
C series orders CS100 (126) and CS 300 (276) orders to date, 402 total orders to date.

[clunckdriver]

I wonder just how much the those at the top levels in the management at the top of Embraer understand how much Boeing are now detested by other players, all it needs is for the Chinese's/Russian's and maybe others to enter the fray and it could all come tumbling down. Thank heavens I'm retired! !

[DaveReidUK]

While selling the C Series made sense for Bombardier, Embraer selling to Boeing really doesnt make sense.

All E series sales combine orders 141.
The relevant E 190 (43) and 195 (5) total 48 orders
C series orders CS100 (126) and CS 300 (276) orders to date, 402 total orders to date.

The E2 backlog is around 350 orders, plus around 170 of the original models yet to be delivered. Where are your figures from ?

[BlankBox]

While selling the C Series made sense for Bombardier, Embraer selling to Boeing really doesnt make sense.

All E series sales combine orders 141.
The relevant E 190 (43) and 195 (5) total 48 orders
C series orders CS100 (126) and CS 300 (276) orders to date, 402 total orders to date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Embraer_E-Jet_operators

...better have a redo on your numbers

[ironbutt57]

While selling the C Series made sense for Bombardier, Embraer selling to Boeing really doesnt make sense.

All E series sales combine orders 141.
The relevant E 190 (43) and 195 (5) total 48 orders
C series orders CS100 (126) and CS 300 (276) orders to date, 402 total orders to date.


wow you're pretty good af fake news, ever think of joining CNN??

[FlightlessParrot]

"Would be interested in hearing more about the rationale of this move from the Embraer side! Does anyone have a link to a good independent source on this?"

But duopoly? The real threats always come from unconsidered vectors. Here: https://quillette.com/2018/07/02/through-the-looking-glass-at-concordia-university/ a chap says: 'I had hoped sciences and engineering were somewhat insulated from the progressives. But if Media Studies students are Teaching Assistants in the College of Engineering, that means the progressives are infecting – yes, infecting – other departments than the social “sciences.” Yes, “sciences” because from what I can tell, true science has been all but abandoned in these fields. If they are truly spreading into the hard sciences and engineering, I fear for the bridges and skyscrapers n 20 years after our scientists and engineers are taught that physics and mathematics are products of the cis-white racist patriarchy and can be ignored for “your truth.”"

OMG

The '30s and '40s only had to worry about Stalinist Communists in the intelligence services, Manhattan Project, and the factories. But Media Studies majors in the Schools of Engineering!

On reflection, if modern Engineering students can't outwit Media Studies TAs, then maybe the West is doomed.

[underfire]

The E2 backlog is around 350 orders, plus around 170 of the original models yet to be delivered. Where are your figures from ?
Was just showing what was online. Sorry for only showing one source, wiki. Wiki was on for C series, but a bit off on E2 series.

Embraer says the have 285 firm orders for the E2 combined 175/190/195. We were talking about the 190/195, not including the 175. The have 435 backlog for ALL ac.
C Series (now the A200), were good at 402.

[underfire]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Embraer_E-Jet_operators

...better have a redo on your numbers

What does a list of operators have to do with orders?

The wiki is much closer to the numbers Embraer reports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_E2_family

and we are talking about the relevant 190/195, not the 175

[DaveReidUK]

When you're in a hole, stop digging ... :O

Why is the E175 "irrelevant", by the way ? Boeing probably don't think so.

[underfire]

When you're in a hole, stop digging ... :O

Why is the E175 "irrelevant", by the way ? Boeing probably don't think so.

It is irrelevant when comparison to the C Series. Just like adding ALL of Embraers orders compared to the C Series orders.

Did you actually read the post? Did it compare E190/E195 orders vs CS100/300 orders? Why did you add E175? Think about that hole you are claiming.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1333/36677974_1510711999034292_4365600910810808320_o_152ba8b339f6 3a7e06d88c052afe60001053ab5b.jpg