Filming in commercial flightdecks [Archive]

windypops

18th Jun 2018, 22:11

What are people’s opinions on professional pilots filming themselves flying a take off or landing and putting it on social media?

The bit that makes me think “mmmmmm, not sure about this”, is that they’ve probably attached a GoPro mount somewhere to capture this, and it’s not going to be an approved mod.

I recently saw a Go Pro mount fixed to the wing and landing gear of a PA28, but that’s another story all together.

PLovett

19th Jun 2018, 01:19

Most companies now have a "social media" policy that bans the placement of cockpit video. Those that can still post appear to be in the minority. To add weight to the argument, there was a notorious prosecution in Australia of a helicopter pilot based on his passenger's video placed on social media. The travesty was the abysmal interpretation of the "evidence" by the authorities where the supposed expert evidence was entirely lacking any expertise.

wiggy

19th Jun 2018, 05:53

Filming by anyone (cabin crew or pilot) from the Flight Deck below FL200 is a “no no” where I am..except if it is done by one of a group of company approved pilots...(who are supposed to have presented a safety case prior to approval.

It’s a relatively new and controversial policy, and TBH looking at the content of some of the approved stuff going out onto social media I’m not sure some of it does us any favours..

Fursty Ferret

19th Jun 2018, 09:32

I've filmed a couple of interesting / scenic approaches for my family to watch but wouldn't have dreamed have putting them on YouTube etc. GoPro mount suckered to the side window of an A320. I did email GoPro first to ask how their mount responded to pressure changes, and they admitted they'd not tried it inside an Airbus, they did say that they'd stuck one on the outside without a problem...

If someone is filming themselves instead of the view I'd be raising my eyebrows.

Thought it was quite beneficial because in one of my videos you could see my hand furiously stirring the sidestick, which stopped pretty much straight away once I'd seen it!

iggy

19th Jun 2018, 11:50

Well, it's like getting J. Lawrence laid and not having a pic, then it didn't happen. They have to show what they used their money for...

Tray Surfer

19th Jun 2018, 13:40

At my old airline, it was a no-no, unless you were one of the chosen few...

But, to be honest, some of the chosen few leave a lot to be desired.

compressor stall

19th Jun 2018, 15:37

There are two sides to this.

Is using a go-pro in the FD on a suction mount a legal problem? Most likely not. And as long as you don't use wifi remote to trigger it, Airbus have no issues.

As for putting it on social media, well maybe as we age and look down despairingly over our reading glasses as the spiky haired tech attached youth, we need to acknowledge that there is a generation gap.

I have many hours of GoPro footage from landings in some interesting parts on the planet, that are on a locked private Vimeo account. Access is family only - or others on request (which has included Airbus!) .

jimjim1

19th Jun 2018, 17:15

you might want to read this -

A bored RAF pilot flying nearly 200 service personnel to Afghanistan sent his passenger jet into a nosedive when a camera he had been playing with jammed the flight controls

A Royal Air Force pilot has been cleared of perjury – but will be sentenced at court martial today after admitting he allowed his digital camera to jam his military airliner’s controls, sending it into a 4,000ft plummet.

Flight Lieutenant Andrew Townshend was taking photos while flying an Airbus A330 Voyager from RAF Brize Norton to Afghanistan in 2014. The court martial heard he put his Nikon DSLR down between the armrest of his captain’s chair and the airliner’s main control stick, mounted on the side of the cockpit.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/03/raf_pilot_awaits_court_martial_sentence_4000ft_airbus_plumme t/

It's on pprune somewhere. I'm sure it can be found easily enough. Injuries and I suspect quite a broken aeroplane but I can't recall about the latter.

Inquiry
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry-incident-involving-voyager-zz333-on-9-february-2014

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/533921-voyager-plummets-merged-26.html

compressor stall

19th Jun 2018, 22:10

I’m not sure of the relevance of a DSLR not in use to the argument about a GoPro mounted out of the way?

pattern_is_full

19th Jun 2018, 22:28

Without having a dog in either fight - I would say that if pilots are happy to introduce their own cameras into the cockpit, it is going to weaken their argument (if any) against the airlines or regulators introducing cameras into the cockpit.

Escape Path

20th Jun 2018, 03:06

Well it's one thing to put it on a suction cup, a whole different one placing anything by the sidestick...

I'll admit to having taped myself taking off or landing at unusual places, but never I have posted them online (not since I'm at a large carrier anyway, did posted a few when flying the DHC-6 some years ago though).

I think it's okay since you don't post the videos (publicly) and don't fiddle with the thing in critical phases. Turn it on and off well in advance...

wiggy

20th Jun 2018, 05:52

I’m not sure of the relevance of a DSLR not in use to the argument about a GoPro mounted out of the way?

FWIW it does become of relevance if the company decides to introduce a filming policy and then uses said incident as a reason for restricting it to select individuals only/safety case.

I also think PIF makes a valid point=>..”at the subsequent board of inquiry GoPro footage showed”.....”

Piltdown Man

20th Jun 2018, 12:42

I have no problems with movies or pictures being taken, but like some other “movies” and portraiture taken by individuals, they should be for private consumption. Publishing them on the web opens you, your colleagues and your company to all sorts of unnecessary scrunity that you will be better off without.

PM

Foxdeux

20th Jun 2018, 13:20

You mean the ubiquitous 737/A320 pilots that post take-offs/landings on social media platforms like Instagram...................they also happen to fly for LCC's who have less stringent cockpit rules or at least more ambiguous ones. Don't get me wrong I think it's perfectly fine if you're filming when you're flying recreational but to do it on the job, there's just something narcissistic about it, but that's just my opinion.

pineteam

20th Jun 2018, 16:52

With the surge of the Snowflakes generation, I would be very careful about posting videos/photos online. They are always some butthurts or annoying people who will criticize and claim how unprofessional you are. The company I work for has no written restrictions. I sometimes make videos/photos when flying with friends but I will think twice before considering posting them online as it can always be against you nowadays.

As mentionned above, be careful about loose items in the cockpit.
if you have a look at Airbus Safety First magazine #19, there was a case that the captain left his camera in between the armrest and the sidestick during flight and when he moved his seat forward, it pushed the camera forward and then the sidestick. The aircraft abruptly pitch down for roughly 20 seconds and reached 15 000 feet/min descent rate...:}

wiggy

20th Jun 2018, 17:42

if you have a look at Airbus Safety First magazine #19, there was a case that the captain left his camera in between the armrest and the sidestick during flight and when he moved his seat forward, it pushed the camera forward and then the sidestick. The aircraft abruptly pitch down for roughly 20 seconds and reached 15 000 feet/min descent rate...:}

I rather suspect that is the near accident jimjim1 referred to earlier in the thread (post #9).

pineteam

20th Jun 2018, 17:48

Oopsy Daisy! Sorry, I missed that. Indeed, that’s the same case.

tdracer

20th Jun 2018, 18:25

Several years ago, we were doing a remote flight test at an operator (the configuration we wanted to make a change to was no longer in production so we had to use a customer's 767 to test it).
Part of the required flight test profile was to do an in-flight shutdown/windmill relight. We do this all the time in Boeing flight test and don't really think much about it, but the operator's line pilots that were riding along were aghast - intentionally shutdown one engine on a twin in-flight? As soon as we shut down the test engine, they both pulled out their phones and started filming EICAS...

FlightDetent

21st Jun 2018, 16:58

On purpose, I avoid the topic of publishing the footage altogether.

In the flight deck, it's what you do with it as opposed to how modern the device is. The DLSR camera case makes a strong point in that direction. The industry already has operationally approved dual-suction mounts holding 2kgs EFB sets, and they are verified for de-compression. No issue with GoPro cup technically.

A reasonable approach would be to assess the phenomena, highlight the risks and provide guidance - where necessary in the form of restrictions. Not to ban it, not ignore it either.

And my issue is the distraction. Attention-wise, the mental one. I've done a lot of EFB implementation work some time ago and was the geek guy for years. The passion for technology is still there, yet these days I seriously contemplate the idea of turning my personal phone completely off check-in to check-out. For clarity of mind when aviating.

FD (Not an owner of a GoPro, but already experienced unhappy thoughts seeing colleagues fool around with them. As well as calling some others the day before to make sure they'd bring it. :) Life is pretty.)

BTW: thanks for the comment on opening the doors to a filmed flight deck.

L1011effoh

21st Jun 2018, 20:29

As I understand it, if you are involved in an incident/accident then any personal GoPro footage is not covered by the hard-won regulations regarding FDM/CVR privacy and non-disclosure outside of safety-related investigations. This means that such footage can be used directly by police/prosecutors in a court of law.

I have thought about it (as an owner of a GoPro used for other things such as sailing, cycling etc) for 'interesting' approaches such as into FNC but I have not, and will not.

wiggy

21st Jun 2018, 20:50

L1011........

As I understand it, if you are involved in an incident/accident then any personal GoPro footage is not covered by the hard-won regulations regarding FDM/CVR privacy and non-disclosure outside of safety-related investigations. This means that such footage can be used directly by police/prosecutors in a court of law.

Correct, see comments about cameras in this press release:

https://ialpa.net/non-disclosure-of-aaib-investigation-materials/

L1011effoh

21st Jun 2018, 20:55

L1011........

Correct, see comments about cameras in this press release:

https://ialpa.net/non-disclosure-of-aaib-investigation-materials/
Thanks Wiggy, knew I'd seen it somewhere but couldn't put my finger on it. . .

BluSdUp

21st Jun 2018, 21:05

I have a still picture of Cpt R filming with his Camera, on AP at 100 feet over Disco Bay Greenland. He is filming the 300 foot high glacier ca 200 meters to the left of us!
A good idea. At the time, yes.
1994 , Be200, no SOP and no internet!
Happy Days

Jason74

24th Jun 2018, 08:05

I see multiple benefits with allowing video imagery of departures and arrivals. But, like any aspect of operating an aircraft, common sense and airmanship must be used. IMHO it is pointless for companies not to have a policy on this, because as long as there are pilots in the flight deck, pilots WILL use cameras of some sort to film the AMAZING scenes that we are fortunate enough to witness.

As mentioned above, video of an arrival can allow critique of aircraft control which can sometimes be surprising! It also allows wannabes an insight into our world, hopefully motivating some of the best young guys and girls towards our profession. Sadly, visits to the flight deck are a thing of the past, but HD video footage of an arrival may be enough to swing a high achiever somewhere towards becoming a professional pilot and away from a mediocre existence in an office building somewhere. (Doing something ghastly like banking or government clerical work)

Years ago, I somehow survived holding a comparitively large camcorder during flight at low level in a fighter in order to film some hero footage to show my grandkids some day. This obviously has some serious implications on flight safety, but a GoPro suction mounted behind an airline crew is a far more benign scenario. Posting this footage on social media is another story entirely!!!

Jason

NSEU

27th Jun 2018, 10:19

I must be missing something here. How can you not mount a GoPro on a window without impeding vision of some part of the sky/aircraft?
Just how strong are these suction cups? Are they affected by window heat? Will they let go in severe turbulence?
In a crash landing, do you really want one of these things embedded in the back of your head?
Passengers are strongly encouraged not to use electronic devices during takeoff and landing, yet we see pilots doing the opposite.

Jason74

27th Jun 2018, 13:32

How can you not mount a GoPro on a window without impeding vision of some part of the sky/aircraft?Just how strong are these suction cups? Are they affected by window heat? Will they let go in severe turbulence?
In a crash landing, do you really want one of these things embedded in the back of your head?

The GoPro FOV is such that it can be mounted behind the pilot and still capture amazing footage of the outside environment, the pilots, and the cockpit. Visibility is not impaired. The suction cup mount is designed to be attached to the outside of moving vehicles and remain secure at speeds of 150mph, so the cockpit environment is well within the design limits. Of course, no-one wants a GoPro embedded in their head, but there are often many other loose items in the flight deck which in a crash will be flying around. A colleague in my company was involved in a severe turbulence incident around 10 years ago, and the tech log ended up in the rudder well! Based on my experience with using GoPro mounts for downhill mountain biking, I would have no problem with trusting the security of the mount.

A Squared

28th Jun 2018, 07:07

wiggy

28th Jun 2018, 07:21

I must be missing something here. How can you not mount a GoPro on a window without impeding vision of some part of the sky/aircraft?
Just how strong are these suction cups? Are they affected by window heat? Will they let go in severe turbulence?

Hope not, given many airlines have regulatory approval to use these type of suction mounts (usually attached to side windows) for iPads and similar on the flight deck.

pineteam

28th Jun 2018, 08:10

I used to put a Gopro 2 with a suction plug on the outside of a Baron. The suction was certified up to 200 mph.

compressor stall

28th Jun 2018, 11:03

So no good in Sichuan A319 cockpits then....

Less Hair

28th Jun 2018, 12:19

In 1991 we had a DC-3 crashing in Germany. They had filmed inside the cockpit for some TV show and had put yellow foil on the inside of the Cockpit windows to get better contrast for filming. The FO flew while talking to the camera and the captain was inside the cabin not on the flight deck. The aircraft took a wrong turn into some black forest valley and crashed. Only one guy survided: The TV sound engineer who sat in the back restroom, the quietest place he could find.

Midland63

10th Sep 2018, 12:12

I'm just SLF and love watching these cockpit vids on YT but, if I were a non-exec director of the airline at a meeting considering a policy on this, I might put up my hand to ask is there not a risk of someone filming himself for public consumption being tempted to "put on a show" and thereby doing something contrary to best practice?

agg_karan

10th Sep 2018, 12:45

I personally think lots of youngsters post videos of themselves in this sensitive environment mainly to satisfy their craving for attention on social media from friends and strangers.
This attitude is per say very otherwise of what a man should be flying in the chair with that responsibility.
Wanting to tell the world how special things are in such a restricted access environment.

regardless of how and where technology can squeeze itself on various foldable tripods, we are just heading towards a situation where pilots are maybe taking this as an adventure program

That day isn't far what pilots do inside could come under FAA/aviation regulators scanner and airlines place cameras inside the cockpit also to monitor the pilots.

Any incident can happen while trying to film stuff because of distraction so IT SHOULD BE DISCOURAGED at all costs.
In the end people pay a lot of money to travel safely and place their faith in the man at the controls...