MH17 Investigators Report

[ORAC]

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/russians-shot-down-mh-17-international-investigation-concludes-20180524-p4zh92.html

Russian missile shot down MH17, international investigation concludes

[ehwatezedoing]

In response, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told the BBC at the time: "We cannot accept as final truth of what they say. I bet you haven't seen any proof." (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402)

Diplomacy hypocrysis at its finest....

[akaSylvia]

Hmm, that quote isn't in that article [anymore?].

Mind the one in there isn't much better:
On Thursday Russia restated its position that none of its forces had been involved. "Not a single anti-aircraft missile system from the Russian Federation has ever crossed the Russia-Ukraine border," the defence ministry in Moscow said.

So the serial number is... wrong? made-up? of a missile shot from somewhere else?

[givemewings]

Hmm I'm etting deja vu didnt Russia deny having anything to do with it the last time they shot down a pax airliner? Sakhalin comes to mind...

[gearlever]

Hmm I'm etting deja vu didnt Russia deny having anything to do with it the last time they shot down a pax airliner? Sakhalin comes to mind...

Putin never ever makes a mistake, like Donald doesn't.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Afternoon All:The Dutch Joint Investigative Team have put together a rather comprehensive video on the downing of MH 17 in the Eastern Ukraine.
This was put out today and I am sure it will cause some embarrassment for our “Russian friends”
https://youtu.be/rhyd875Qtlg

[vapilot2004]

Excellent video. A330 PC. :ok:

Putin never ever makes a mistake, like Donald doesn't.

Indeed, as Russia Today and Fox News media propaganda outlets attest to daily.

No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims - RT 24 MAY 2018 (https://www.rt.com/news/427669-mh17-russia-ukraine-dutch/)

[hoss183]

update today: MH17: Russia 'liable' for downing airliner over Ukraine - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44252150)
Russia formally accused by Australia & Netherlands

[Dee Vee]

Russia formally accused by Australia & Netherlands

the buk missile was recovered from the crash site and this image of its serial number was posted on local news, presumably Russia will have some excuse to disclaim its theirs.

https://i.imgur.com/A1qNrCA.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/A1qNrCA.jpg)

[Cynical Sid]

the buk missile was recovered from the crash site and this image of its serial number was posted on local news, presumably Russia will have some excuse to disclaim its theirs.

https://i.imgur.com/A1qNrCA.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/A1qNrCA.jpg)

That image could be just as fake as the ones shown on Russian media.

[Dee Vee]

That image could be just as fake as the ones shown on Russian media.

you suggesting the JIT, who have the actual shell, have faked a photo of it, or they didn't actually check the device to determine it is really a Russian missile??

regardless it is only 1 tiny part of the swathe of evidence they have presented, not the least of which is a multitude of dashcam video's of the Russian convoy travelling from its camp in Russia to the site where it was launched in the Ukraine, then travelling back to Russia.

Maybe that Russian buk missile launcher that just happened to move into the right position, then scarpered back to Russia was all just co-incidence eh? And all those drivers dashcam video's were fabricated as well...

[ehwatezedoing]

Hmm I'm etting deja vu didnt Russia deny having anything to do with it the last time they shot down a pax airliner? Sakhalin comes to mind...
Don't forget the USS Vincennes shooting down the Iranian Airbus back in 1988.
Even if it was pretty obvious who did it, various lies were told at the time to shift blame.

[Cynical Sid]

you suggesting the JIT, who have the actual shell, have faked a photo of it, or they didn't actually check the device to determine it is really a Russian missile??

regardless it is only 1 tiny part of the swathe of evidence they have presented, not the least of which is a multitude of dashcam video's of the Russian convoy travelling from its camp in Russia to the site where it was launched in the Ukraine, then travelling back to Russia.

Maybe that Russian buk missile launcher that just happened to move into the right position, then scarpered back to Russia was all just co-incidence eh? And all those drivers dashcam video's were fabricated as well...

I am sure most reasonable people believe that is exactly what happened. But it does not mean you should not question the evidence. So many lies have been told around this tragedy.

[Heathrow Harry]

Hmm, that quote isn't in that article [anymore?].

Mind the one in there isn't much better:

So the serial number is... wrong? made-up? of a missile shot from somewhere else?

Depends on who is defining the "Russian Ukraine Border" I guess.......................

[akaSylvia]

I am sure most reasonable people believe that is exactly what happened. But it does not mean you should not question the evidence. So many lies have been told around this tragedy.

However, there are multiple images showing the serial number, not just one. So we're heading into major conspiracy theory if they were all faked in order to falsely implicate Russian ownership of a Buk in Ukraine.

[icarus sun]

The west should apply sanctions against Russian aviation.
Ban all Russian aircraft from Europe.
Until Russia admits to the shootdown of civilian flight MH17.
And pays reparations to the victims.

[infrequentflyer789]

Depends on who is defining the "Russian Ukraine Border" I guess.......................

Indeed, compare and contrast:

"More S-400 air defense systems to be deployed in Crimea" https://www.rt.com/news/414011-s400-missile-deployment-crimea/
and
"No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine" https://www.rt.com/news/427669-mh17-russia-ukraine-dutch/

The only way for the Russian position to be consistent with itself is if the "Russian Ukraine Border" is the boundary of the area the Ukraine government actually controls, and the investigators are not saying that the missile came from Ukraine-controlled territory.

[wingview]

We will all know in about 20 years. By then Putin was eaten by the oldest aligator in the world, while fishing, and Russia have Gorbatjov 2.0. Same story with Lockerbie, just a few nuances.

Everybody knows who is to blame. It's just politics and politician don't care about collateral damage. So sad...!

[Intrance]

The west should apply sanctions against Russian aviation.
Ban all Russian aircraft from Europe.
Until Russia admits to the shootdown of civilian flight MH17.
And pays reparations to the victims.

Very well thought out plan. I'm sure it's fool proof and nothing that Russia could do in return, like say, ban Western airlines from it's airspace causing major issues for basically anything wanting to go to Asia from places like AMS for example.

[WingNut60]

The following is not meant to exonerate anyone, and undoubtedly the aircraft was deliberately targeted.
But does anyone really think or assert that the aircraft was deliberately targeted while knowing it to be a non-Ukrainian, non-combatant over-flight?

Or, put more simply, is there anything to support this being anything other than a major f.....k up?
Something along the lines of the USS Vincennes incident.

[Brat]

Don't forget the USS Vincennes shooting down the Iranian Airbus back in 1988.
Even if it was pretty obvious who did it, various lies were told at the time to shift blame.
The US never denied shooting it down. Russia has, and has denied previous shoot downs.
https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912699/7-times-militaries-have-shot-down-civilian-planes

[icarus sun]

Very well thought out plan. I'm sure it's fool proof and nothing that Russia could do in return, like say, ban Western airlines from it's airspace causing major issues for basically anything wanting to go to Asia from places like AMS for example.
Russia would probably ban European aircraft from its airspace.But the southern routes would still be open.
To ensure a level playing field the aerospace border with Russia should be closed as well.
No air traffic could enter European airspace from Russia.
To sit back and do nothing is the result Russia wants.
They get away with murder and we get to talk about it.

[Start Fore]

I agree. There's always the Southern Routes while we punish Russia, for as long as that takes.

They're murdering scum, and they've been getting away with it for far far too long.

Russia should be completely isolated, for the time being.

[Timmy Tomkins]

Given the lily livered response to Russia generally from most western politicians, they will just keep lying and get away, literally, with murder.

[etudiant]

Given the lily livered response to Russia generally from most western politicians, they will just keep lying and get away, literally, with murder.
Europe depends on Russian gas. Politicians have to take that into account.
So a messy aviation incident during a civil war (fostered incidentally by European and US politicians, if Victoria Nuland is to be believed) is not going to be allowed to derail the relationship.

[glad rag]

Europe depends on Russian gas. Politicians have to take that into account.
So a messy aviation incident during a civil war (fostered incidentally by European and US politicians, if Victoria Nuland is to be believed) is not going to be allowed to derail the relationship.

"So a messy aviation incident" !!!

then of course there is..

..SALISBURY.

Goodness knows what it would take for your metric to decide what a major event would be!!!

[Sailvi767]

The following is not meant to exonerate anyone, and undoubtedly the aircraft was deliberately targeted.
But does anyone really think or assert that the aircraft was deliberately targeted while knowing it to be a non-Ukrainian, non-combatant over-flight?

Or, put more simply, is there anything to support this being anything other than a major f.....k up?
Something along the lines of the USS Vincennes incident.

i am sure that is exactly what happened. It was a giant mistake. The real question that should be asked is why civilian airliners are flyin in, around and near war zones. It will happen again in the next few years, probably in the Middle East.

[Heathrow Harry]

I agree. There's always the Southern Routes while we punish Russia, for as long as that takes.

They're murdering scum, and they've been getting away with it for far far too long.

Russia should be completely isolated, for the time being.

That's what the US tried with Japan in 1940-41 - and look how that turned out.............

[etudiant]

"So a messy aviation incident" !!!

then of course there is..

..SALISBURY.

Goodness knows what it would take for your metric to decide what a major event would be!!!

The Ukraine civil war has cost at least 10,000 lives, according to UN reports, yet is considered only a distraction even by European politicians.
Presumably their metric for a 'major event' is different from that of most people.

[ehwatezedoing]

The US never denied shooting it down. Russia has, and has denied previous shoot downs.
https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912699/7-times-militaries-have-shot-down-civilian-planes
Denying shooting it down no, like I said that was pretty obvious where it was coming from, shifting blame yes.
The ‘Forgotten’ US Shootdown of Iranian Airliner Flight 655* (https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/07/03/the-forgotten-us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655%C2%AD/)

Sorry for the thread drift.

[vapilot2004]

I agree. There's always the Southern Routes while we punish Russia, for as long as that takes.

They're murdering scum, and they've been getting away with it for far far too long.

Russia should be completely isolated, for the time being.

I believe since Trump's crony, Putin has been in power, Russia has been a greater threat to Western democracies than during all the latter years of the Cold War.

[777Nine]

I feel for the victim's families. Unfortunately, no one is going to take on Russia over this. Even with evidence, who's going to take on Putin?

[Sunamer]

Don't forget the USS Vincennes shooting down the Iranian Airbus back in 1988.
Even if it was pretty obvious who did it, various lies were told at the time to shift blame.

you mean,like, within a week USA had admitted they did it, unlike Russia?

[Heathrow Harry]

The Ukraine civil war has cost at least 10,000 lives, according to UN reports, yet is considered only a distraction even by European politicians.
Presumably their metric for a 'major event' is different from that of most people.

No-one wants another major war in Europe......... the last one cost tens of millions of lives and that was before we had the A bomb

[albatross]

I lost a good friend on that flight...Miss him still, but not as much as his wife and children do.

[RAT 5]

Given the sanctions against Russia; given the report about this event in Ukraine; given the Salisbury incident, how the hell did the UEFA final end up in Kiev? Or is this "we don't allow sport to get mixed up in politics." Yeah, right. And the world cup?

[Heathrow Harry]

Given the sanctions against Russia; given the report about this event in Ukraine; given the Salisbury incident, how the hell did the UEFA final end up in Kiev? Or is this "we don't allow sport to get mixed up in politics." Yeah, right. And the world cup?

Awarded years ago............... and Kiev is the country that was invaded by Russia - what you want to ask is why everyone went to Sochi....................

Vested interests, TV money, - you expect PRINCIPLES?????

[BAengineer]

The Ukraine civil war has cost at least 10,000 lives, according to UN reports, yet is considered only a distraction even by European politicians.
Presumably their metric for a 'major event' is different from that of most people.

The EU is reliant on Russia for 35% of their gas supply. Under that circumstance you dont poke the Bear

[hoss183]

The following is not meant to exonerate anyone, and undoubtedly the aircraft was deliberately targeted.
But does anyone really think or assert that the aircraft was deliberately targeted while knowing it to be a non-Ukrainian, non-combatant over-flight?

Or, put more simply, is there anything to support this being anything other than a major f.....k up?
Something along the lines of the USS Vincennes incident.
I did see an article saying that an Aeroflot flight was on a crossing north/south track at the time Mh17 was hit. The theory goes that Putain was try to shoot down that one in order to justify full scale invasion of Ukraine. No proof or course, but plausible with that nutter.

[TC_Ukraine]

I did see an article saying that an Aeroflot flight was on a crossing north/south track at the time Mh17 was hit. The theory goes that Putain was try to shoot down that one in order to justify full scale invasion of Ukraine. No proof or course, but plausible with that nutter.
first minutes after downing MH17, russian media reported about crash of ukrainian military AN-26, not SU2074. If they really wanted to hit Aeroflot, they would ve report about it instantly. IMHO.
besides if Russi wanted to hit their jet on purpose, they could launch a "low-speed" rocket when aircraft passed state border, to make it reach the target 10-15 minutes later and many miles away.

[hoss183]

first minutes after downing MH17, russian media reported about crash of ukrainian military AN-26, not SU2074. If they really wanted to hit Aeroflot, they would ve report about it instantly. IMHO.
besides if Russi wanted to hit their jet on purpose, they could launch a "low-speed" rocket when aircraft passed state border, to make it reach the target 10-15 minutes later and many miles away.
That wouldnt look so plausible. If its the case they would want it to look like a Ukrainian SAM launch from a contested or as near to a goverment controlled area as possible.

[ehwatezedoing]

you mean,like, within a week USA had admitted they did it, unlike Russia?
Read post #30

[gearlever]

Denying shooting it down no, like I said that was pretty obvious where it was coming from, shifting blame yes.
The ‘Forgotten’ US Shootdown of Iranian Airliner Flight 655* (https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/07/03/the-forgotten-us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655%C2%AD/)


Thx ehwatezedoing for the link.

I'm speechless.......

[gearlever]

" In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Merit) "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer .. "

Rogers commanded the shot down of Iran Air 655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Jumbo744]

I agree. There's always the Southern Routes while we punish Russia, for as long as that takes.

They're murdering scum, and they've been getting away with it for far far too long.

Russia should be completely isolated, for the time being.

for a minute I thought you were talking about the USA

[Nikker]

Genuinely I can not understand why such a big group of people who are involved in aviation can't have any other opinion on this tragedy. While I do understand that vast majority of gentlemen and ladies here watch mostly that type of "media" which clearly describes this accident in "Ukrainian" way and laugh when they see different versions, I don't understand why you keep blaming Russian "media" for propaganda ,when others do absolutely the same.

[hoss183]

Genuinely I can not understand why such a big group of people who are involved in aviation can't have any other opinion on this tragedy. While I do understand that vast majority of gentlemen and ladies here watch mostly that type of "media" which clearly describes this accident in "Ukrainian" way and laugh when they see different versions, I don't understand why you keep blaming Russian "media" for propaganda ,when others do absolutely the same.
Sure, no media is clean, but theres a big difference between the Russian state controlled media and the rest of the 'free'(ish) press.
I really don't know what other 'opinion' any well informed person is supposed to have, the facts are that a Russian military SAM covertly shot down a passenger jet.

[TonyGosling]

Ukrainian pilot blamed for MH17 'kills himself'
DAILY TELEGRAPH
Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn was blamed for the crash by Russian media and officials
Roland Oliphant 19 MARCH 2018 • 8:11PM
A Ukrainian pilot falsely accused by Russia of shooting down the MH17 airliner has reportedly taken his own life.....

[grateful_pax]

Ukrainian pilot blamed for MH17 'kills himself'
DAILY TELEGRAPH
Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn was blamed for the crash by Russian media and officials
Roland Oliphant 19 MARCH 2018 • 8:11PM
A Ukrainian pilot falsely accused by Russia of shooting down the MH17 airliner has reportedly taken his own life.....

He was an interim director of Mykolaiv airport at that time. He killed himself shortly after an investigation uncovered widespread corruption in some govt-funded development projects in the airport. He was deeply involved in that stuff. Sad story. No actual connection to MH-17 though.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1623327184386420736?s=61&t=KqHC73i8KjXsgLI6UPpinw
The Joint Investigating Team announced today that they have sufficient evidence that Putin personally authorized the delivery and use of the BUK that shot down MH17, and that once he's no longer president, and no longer has immunity, he may be prosecuted.

https://t.co/f1lBnWwcOA

[josephfeatherweight]

The Joint Investigating Team announced today that they have sufficient evidence that Putin personally authorized the delivery and use of the BUK that shot down MH17, and that once he's no longer president, and no longer has immunity, he may be prosecuted.

"Once he's no longer president" he will be deceased. Either from illness (that he is alleged to be currently suffering) or from an accident courtesy of the FSB.

[ATC Watcher]

But this is in fact just a side show.. Athorising the delivery of anti aircraft missiles in time of war is not unusual and there seem to be conscensus that the military staff l that operated the BUK did not target specifically the 777, and di not identify it as a civilian aircraft until after it was shot down . . Allowing civilian ttafiic to overfly a war area is more the issue I would say .

[WideScreen]

But this is in fact just a side show.. Athorising the delivery of anti aircraft missiles in time of war is not unusual and there seem to be conscensus that the military staff l that operated the BUK did not target specifically the 777, and di not identify it as a civilian aircraft until after it was shot down . . Allowing civilian ttafiic to overfly a war area is more the issue I would say .
Yes and no.

IF it had been known to Ukraine, that the airspace above the FL250 (or so, bear me the exact FL) was unsafe, the airspace would have been closed. Though according to available information, there were no weapons able to reach that Height/Altitude/FL (choose what measuring method you want to use) in that area, so the upper transit airways were presumed to be safe.

We do have a situation, that an alien "power" did bring a lethal weapon into an area, where they should not have been at all, with their military, able to reach the upper airways. Deploying such a weapon, brings the obligation to be careful with what you do. At least, that is the way rule based world order is reasoning. The dictatorial way of thinking (Russia, China, Iran, Trump, to name a few), just ignores this and tries to grab as much as they think, they can get away with, using whatever method seems to be effective (IE the way children in kindergarten do, though also gradually learn, there are rules, whether you are allowed to grab those nice sweets).

The Buk was sent/deployed without its normal control units, which would have been able to determine the foo difference of potential targets. Now, they only had a primary radar, showing there was an aircraft, without being able to identify the foo.

But hey, to realize & coordinate these things, you need to be civilized above the level of Neanderthals, something we not have seen developed in barbarian Russia, emphasized by the amount of war-crimes against the civilian population (and the slaughtering of their own troops in the meat grinders) .....

[ATC Watcher]

WideScreen :
IF it had been known to Ukraine, that the airspace above the FL250 (or so, bear me the exact FL) was unsafe, the airspace would have been closed. That is subject to lot of controversy. Who knew what when and the motivation to keep the upper airspace open to get the revenue (in hard currency) of the overflying charges badly needed by Ukraine was there , bearing in mind it is the same Gvernement authority that both collect those charges and declare if the airspace is safe or not. .
Todays' Wikipedia is rather explicit :( emphasis on "today" )
On 26 May, a spokesperson of the Ukrainian Armed Forces stated that a surface-to-air missile system that was being used by the rebels, near Donetsk airport, had been destroyed by a helicopter of the Ukrainian army. On 6 June 2014 The International New York Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_New_York_Times) reported that surface-to-air missiles had been seized from military bases. On 11 June, the newspaper Argumenty nedeli (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Argumenty_nedeli&action=edit&redlink=1) [de] reported that a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system]Buk-M1 missile (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumenty_nedeli) launcher had been present in an area under the separatists' control. On 29 June the Russian news agencies reported that insurgents had obtained a Buk missile system after having taken control of Ukrainian military unit A-1402;[40] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-itar290614-48)[41] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-ntv.ru-49) and the Donetsk People's Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic) claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter).[40] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-itar290614-48)[42] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-thediplomat-50)[43] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-51)

Such air defence systems cannot reliably identify and avoid civilian aircraft.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-52)[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-53) The Ukrainian authorities declared in the media that this system was not operational.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-DSB_Final_Report-3): 187–188  According to the subsequent statement of the Security Service of Ukraine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Service_of_Ukraine), three Buk missile systems were located on militia-controlled territory at the time that Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was shot down.

Did the Civil Ukrainian CAA knew ? They say no, But some Western airlines did had some info because they avoided all of the Ukrainian airspace from the beginning of June. ( one and half months before MH17) taking longer routings and additional costs.
But it is all hindsight and without proofs..
For the second part of your post, I fully agree. They are going back in the early Soviet era.

[Expatrick]

Yes and no.

IF it had been known to Ukraine, that the airspace above the FL250 (or so, bear me the exact FL) was unsafe, the airspace would have been closed. Though according to available information, there were no weapons able to reach that Height/Altitude/FL (choose what measuring method you want to use) in that area, so the upper transit airways were presumed to be safe.


The original restriction was to Fl 250, it was then (prior to the shoot down) lifted to Fl 320.

[Expatrick]

That is subject to lot of controversy. Who knew what when and the motivation to keep the upper airspace open to get the revenue (in hard currency) of the overflying charges badly needed by Ukraine was there , bearing in mind it is the same Gvernement authority that both collect those charges and declare if the airspace is safe or not. .


This.

[JanetFlight]

This.

IMHO Ukraine was always very weird and dubious regarding civil aviation and other stuff relating aviation. For example during many years before this sad war, Ukraine was the main booster regarding breaking and corrupting sanctions towards Iran, issued by US and UE...We could been taxing on some main Iranian airports, and we could watch outside a vast myriad of exotic Iranian airlines and half of them were painted on the registration field by the famous letters UR-.
Mainly were those famous Maddogs and oldie 737s.
Lots of new Ukrainian airlines created (let's say) last decade and an half, (and some of them ceased to exist after some months) , were exclusively dedicated to lease planes to Iran new airlines. Some basic plane spotting websites could confirm this. Peace 🙏

[dixi188]

A question re the current war in Ukraine.
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?

[Lonewolf_50]

If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon? If you drive drunk and hit a grandmother and her grand children, killing them, will someone sue Ford or BMW (or whomever built the car)?

[WideScreen]

A question re the current war in Ukraine.
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?
There are some subtle differences.

The 2014 Donbas situation was a Rebels (IE Terrorists) uprise in a country, where a foreign country (let's call that Russia) was stoking behind the curtains and providing weapons (including crew) to support the terrorists. Weapons, which they kept owning (the Buk&crew immediately went back to Russia, after it was found, a civilian airline was shot down). Russians pulled the trigger on their own decision to shoot.

The 2022/2023 Donbas situation is, that a country is defending its own legitimate territory against an invading foreign country. The defending country does purchase (in whatever form) weapons to do the defense and owns and crews the weapons with their own civilians drawn into the military. All decisions how to use the obtained weapons (either just destroy or to shoot) are by that countries' own military.

So, the reason this MH17 downing went to court, was simply, because it were foreign military with foreign weapons, acting illegally in the country to support the local terrorists. This is effectively state-terrorism, not a "regular" war, where civilian casualties can be expected.

[WideScreen]

IMHO Ukraine was always very weird and dubious regarding civil aviation and other stuff relating aviation. For example during many years before this sad war, Ukraine was the main booster regarding breaking and corrupting sanctions towards Iran, issued by US and UE...We could been taxing on some main Iranian airports, and we could watch outside a vast myriad of exotic Iranian airlines and half of them were painted on the registration field by the famous letters UR-.
Mainly were those famous Maddogs and oldie 737s.
Lots of new Ukrainian airlines created (let's say) last decade and an half, (and some of them ceased to exist after some months) , were exclusively dedicated to lease planes to Iran new airlines. Some basic plane spotting websites could confirm this. Peace 🙏
Your overall line of reasoning is certainly true (I won't discuss the details), though we need to recognize, Ukraine was moving from a state (including its originally more or less dictatorial political system) alike Russia into a Western democracy. This does not happen overnight (Europe developed this state system -on their own- in a couple of centuries), so fall-out and mistakes can be expected.

Though, it is obvious, the Ukraine people elected for the change towards a Western democracy. Which in turn frightened Russia (or better, the Russian rulers), since more and more of their historic Russian companion countries turned away from the Russian state-system, happily joining the Russian-enemy coalition. Mark, that this is not about the Russian state itself, or the Russian people, but specifically the Russian rulers seeing their power-base undermined.

Going back to the 2014 Donbas and the way the downing of the MH17 was treated by the local population (indifference and looting the passenger possessions !), it is clear, that Ukraine, especially the 2014 Donbas area, was certainly more Russian-barbarian alike, than Western civilized. Which in turn explains why the Donbas got its terrorist uprise to "separate" from Ukraine and joining Russia, given the better "match" in mentality.

[WideScreen]

WideScreen :
That is subject to lot of controversy. Who knew what when and the motivation to keep the upper airspace open to get the revenue (in hard currency) of the overflying charges badly needed by Ukraine was there , bearing in mind it is the same Gvernement authority that both collect those charges and declare if the airspace is safe or not. .
Todays' Wikipedia is rather explicit :( emphasis on "today" )
Wikipedia is a great source, though unfortunately not really suitable for controversial subjects, since everybody can "edit", etc.
Did the Civil Ukrainian CAA knew ? They say no, But some Western airlines did had some info because they avoided all of the Ukrainian airspace from the beginning of June. ( one and half months before MH17) taking longer routings and additional costs.
But it is all hindsight and without proofs..
Yep, there were airlines already avoiding Ukraine overflight, though it never surfaces with factual information around the "why". Not to say, my impression is, this was more based on a general "be careful", avoid war zones, than practical information about real threats (the Ukraine Buks were out-of-order, so not relevant).

Correct me, when I am wrong, though my memory says, there were other reputable airlines (SQ ???), also overflying Ukraine, on the same day. QF/KE were already avoiding the Ukraine airspace. And, let us be realistic, how easy is it, to judge on your own, whether an airspace at the other side of the world is safe to use, when the local airspace "owner" gives a green ? This would be a lot easier to determine for airlines, hosted "around the corner".

Not to say, the JIT has investigated this whole and never did come up, that additional info was available for Ukraine or the airlines, that the airspace above FL250/320 would be unsafe. Given the "unsafe airspace" is one of Russians defenses, it can be expected, the JIT did focus on this subject. The general no-nonsense, no cover-up approach Dutch people tend to have, makes it also not likely, information around this subject is kept secret.
For the second part of your post, I fully agree. They are going back in the early Soviet era.
Yeah ....

[ATC Watcher]

@ WideScreen"
Not to say, the JIT has investigated this whole and never did come up, that additional info was available for Ukraine or the airlines, that the airspace above FL250/320 would be unsafe. Given the "unsafe airspace" is one of Russians defenses, it can be expected, the JIT did focus on this subject. The general no-nonsense, no cover-up approach Dutch people tend to have, makes it also not likely, information around this subject is kept secret.
The delacartion of Frank Brenner ,DG of Eurocontrol at the time to either the IT or to a commission of the Dutch paliament ,( I cannot recall which one ) as to what Network Manager knew , and when and to who it was passed on to ( the Dutch State represenative and not KLM , if my memory is correct, ) gives a clue.
I will PM you another clue.

[Expatrick]

WidescrWide-screen
These paragraphs appear contradictory

Correct me, when I am wrong, though my memory says, there were other reputable airlines (SQ ???), also overflying Ukraine, on the same day. QF/KE were already avoiding the Ukraine airspace. And, let us be realistic, how easy is it, to judge on your own, whether an airspace at the other side of the world is safe to use, when the local airspace "owner" gives a green ? This would be a lot easier to determine for airlines, hosted "around the corner".

Not to say, the JIT has investigated this whole and never did come up, that additional info was available for Ukraine or the airlines, that the airspace above FL250/320 would be unsafe. Given the "unsafe airspace" is one of Russians defenses, it can be expected, the JIT did focus on this subject. The general no-nonsense, no cover-up approach Dutch people tend to have, makes it also not likely, information around this subject is kept secret.

UkSATSE should have closed the airspace to the top.

[WideScreen]

WidescrWide-screen
These paragraphs appear contradictory
....
.
It was not intended to be contradictory, can you elaborate on that ?

[Expatrick]

It was not intended to be contradictory, can you elaborate on that ?

You seem, on the one hand to imply that airlines should have known (that the airspace was unsafe) while also implying that no one could know that was the case.

At least that's how it seems to read.

Ukraine airspace is "owned" by the military and released by them, at their discretion, for civil use, in conjunction with UkSATSE (Ukr AMC). Both the Ukrainian military & AMC are closest to the situation and should have the relevant awareness. If in doubt, close it down!

[WideScreen]

You seem, on the one hand to imply that airlines should have known (that the airspace was unsafe) while also implying that no one could know that was the case.

At least that's how it seems to read.

Ukraine airspace is "owned" by the military and released by them, at their discretion, for civil use, in conjunction with UkSATSE (Ukr AMC). Both the Ukrainian military & AMC are closest to the situation and should have the relevant awareness. If in doubt, close it down!
Aha. OK, let me explain.

When deciding, one usually makes decisions based on "hard" facts. Unless the consequences are severe, then one starts to caution towards the safe side, especially in aviation. So, when there is a developing war zone, still not full scale, presumably partial safe, one can assume, the development towards a full-scale unsafe situation does continue, and some moment in time will reach the "unacceptable" qualification.

So, even when the airspace owner declares the airspace safe, the logic of continuity suggests a growing unsafe situation (until proven otherwise). Depending on one's judgement, a use/not-use switch comes sooner or later. So, some airlines started to avoid Ukraine earlier than others. Even when MH17 would not have been shot down, it could very well be, all airlines would have decided to avoid Ukraine airspace, within a week or so. Though, this is difficult to judge, 8+ years later.

Does this explain the perceived contradiction ?

In general, I don't think, there was operational knowledge, the Buk was in Ukraine. IIRC, when shooting down the MH17. On July 14/15 an armament convoy arrived in Luhansk/Donetsk, the Buk is reported to have arrived 2 days later in Donetsk around 9:00 (am) on July 17, presumably, direct from Russia along the same route from the border, subsequently departed Donetsk around 10:30 (am) and it got deployed immediately after it arrived from Donetsk in Snizhne.

Oh, the Buk is there to protect the armament against air-based attacks, against which the armament itself does not have protection.

So, the Buk was less than a day (maybe 12 hours) on occupied Ukraine territory, before MH17 was shot down. That's incredibly short, to get this kind of information spread through government organizations, military or not (the US took 3 days to realize and wake-up, there was a China Spy balloon overhead Montana).

See: Bellingcat about the MH17-Buk route (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/03/04/8110/)

[fdr]

A question re the current war in Ukraine.
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?

If you drive drunk and hit a grandmother and her grand children, killing them, will someone sue Ford or BMW (or whomever built the car)?

If Ford or BMW sent their drivers to ensure that the car was driven by a suitably drunk person and was targeted to the grandmother and her grandchildren, then, I would think that is not merely a tort, it is a criminal conspiracy to conduct mass murder. IMHO. Willow Run can expand on the legal nicety, but that wouldn't be a tough decision for a member of the jury to come to a conclusion based on the evidence.

[Lonewolf_50]

If Ford or BMW sent their drivers to ensure that the car was driven by a suitably drunk person and was targeted to the grandmother and her grandchildren, then, I would think that is not merely a tort, it is a criminal conspiracy to conduct mass murder. IMHO. Willow Run can expand on the legal nicety, but that wouldn't be a tough decision for a member of the jury to come to a conclusion based on the evidence. You appear to have missed my point, which was a somewhat sarcastic response to this pile of horse apples.
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?

[Expatrick]

Aha. OK, let me explain.

When deciding, one usually makes decisions based on "hard" facts. Unless the consequences are severe, then one starts to caution towards the safe side, especially in aviation. So, when there is a developing war zone, still not full scale, presumably partial safe, one can assume, the development towards a full-scale unsafe situation does continue, and some moment in time will reach the "unacceptable" qualification.

So, even when the airspace owner declares the airspace safe, the logic of continuity suggests a growing unsafe situation (until proven otherwise). Depending on one's judgement, a use/not-use switch comes sooner or later. So, some airlines started to avoid Ukraine earlier than others. Even when MH17 would not have been shot down, it could very well be, all airlines would have decided to avoid Ukraine airspace, within a week or so. Though, this is difficult to judge, 8+ years later.

Does this explain the perceived contradiction ?



Thank you, it does, a little - at least I understand better where you are coming from - however we have to remember that the Ukrainian authorities (both civil & military) had more information available than anyone and, in my opinion, exercised poor judgement, driven, no doubt, by the desire to secure the route charge.