The Great Hour Building Conundrum

[ComeFlyWithB]

Hi All,

So PPL skills test is in sight as is starting ATPL, the question is now Hour Building!

Where, when, how many hours in each place etc ....

Arizona - Angel city flyers / Chandler
Florida - Pilots Paradise
San Diego - American aviation
South Africa - Stellenbosch Flying Club
Home club / Airfield - Barton

anyone with experience / advice or anything to chip in please feel free to contribute, looking for the best experience / most affordable options.

Tha ks is in advance!!

[Ultranomad]

Numerous outfits in Czechia, Hungary and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. You can hire a Tecnam Echo for an equivalent of £65 per hour wet at LKBE, or C150 or C152 for £75...85 at LKLT, LKJA, LKPM, LHKA just to name a few. Inexpensive lodging, too; some flying clubs have basic accommodations right at the airfield. If you are into tailwheel aircraft, there are options like Piper Cub, Zlin 126/226 etc.

[Pilot DAR]

And consider Canada.... reasonable prices, lots of space, and you can get a float rating if you like!

[India Four Two]

+1

And there’s a bonus for doing a float rating in Canada. Unlike in the US, a Canadian float rating requires solo flying. :ok:

[Katamarino]

Wherever you go, don't just buzz around the local area all the time. Set off on a long trip. My first big flight in the US after getting my licence was Florida to California and back in a C172, 5 weeks total. Much better experience!

[jamesgrainge]

Numerous outfits in Czechia, Hungary and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. You can hire a Tecnam Echo for an equivalent of £65 per hour wet at LKBE, or C150 or C152 for £75...85 at LKLT, LKJA, LKPM, LHKA just to name a few. Inexpensive lodging, too; some flying clubs have basic accommodations right at the airfield. If you are into tailwheel aircraft, there are options like Piper Cub, Zlin 126/226 etc.

Is an echo a valid time building aircraft?

[rudestuff]

I assume you are going on to a CPL/IR? If so then you should get an ICAO IR during your hour building (IR you're paying for the aircraft anyway so you just pay the extra for an instructor) FAA is probably the cheapest and easiest.

Then spend 50 hours as PIC under IFR practicing NDB holds, procedural approaches and the odd ILS. You'll then be allowed to take your EASA IR with no minimums (normally it's 40 SIM and 15 multi) - just train to proficiency. That will also allow you to do the short 15 hour cpl course as well.

[Ultranomad]

Is an echo a valid time building aircraft?

Why not? It's a VLA, not a microlight.

[ComeFlyWithB]

And consider Canada.... reasonable prices, lots of space, and you can get a float rating if you like!

I have considered Canada however I’ve just been unable to find any schools / locations / prices ... any info would be greatly appreciated!

Float plane ant rating would be fun also

[ComeFlyWithB]

Wherever you go, don't just buzz around the local area all the time. Set off on a long trip. My first big flight in the US after getting my licence was Florida to California and back in a C172, 5 weeks total. Much better experience!

This is exactly my plan, however the schools I’ve contacted and spoken with to a greater deal either don’t allow passengers or the aircraft is only available / aloud to be taken away for 2 days and 3 nights. Where did you do yours if you don’t mind me asking ?

[ComeFlyWithB]

I assume you are going on to a CPL/IR? If so then you should get an ICAO IR during your hour building (IR you're paying for the aircraft anyway so you just pay the extra for an instructor) FAA is probably the cheapest and easiest.

Then spend 50 hours as PIC under IFR practicing NDB holds, procedural approaches and the odd ILS. You'll then be allowed to take your EASA IR with no minimums (normally it's 40 SIM and 15 multi) - just train to proficiency. That will also allow you to do the short 15 hour cpl course as well.

I have looked into this but doesn’t it end up becoming more expensive overall ?

[jamesgrainge]

Why not? It's a VLA, not a microlight.

It was purely the weight category and fuel that made me question. If it is valid then that's a cracking price.

[Ebbie 2003]

Renting, you do not want a big flight dchool in the US, you will not get take the airplane away for weeks on end.

Most airports will have smaller schools who also use airplanes from private owners, you would likely get one of those at a lower cost maybe a two or three hour daily minimum.

Make sure the insurance us good, buy renter insurance - remember to factor in the cost of hotel rooms if doing long distance flights or buy a tent and select airports carefully.

Hour building through renting is going to be very expensive - consider buying something cheap and cheerful and selling at the end, pikely to save you a lot.

[rudestuff]

I have looked into this but doesn’t it end up becoming more expensive overall ?
You could put it like that: about £-10,000 more expensive!

You should definitely do the maths yourself, but this is the cheapest way by FAR.
The most important thing to understand is what you need, what can be combined with what, and what order to do everything in. Plenty of people find themselves short of something down the line (usually night hours) and end up having to hour build twice..

The most expensive way is to hour build to 175, then do a CPL (200) hours THEN do a full IR (15 multi plus 40 sim reduced to 30 because of your CPL)
The next cheapest way is to do your IR first, and hour build to 185, finishing with a 15 hour CPL because of your IR (basically you replace 15 hours of hour building with your 15 hours multi, net saving 15 hours)
The CBIR is even cheaper, for two reasons: it's 10 hours fewer (45 vs 55)and you can do it all (or most of it) in an aircraft, which is much cheaper than the Sim. (The aircraft is free actually)
The downside to all of these options is that you have to fly 15 hours in a multi, that's where the expense lies. If only there was a way to avoid that... Well actually there are two: one is to convert a foreign IR the 'normal' way (10 hours SIM, 5 multi) - the other is to convert a foreign IR via the CBIR route which (as long as you have 50 hours IFR as PIC, again: free) requires no training, you can just take the test.
An FAA instrument rating might cost you £2000 (in instructor feed) but if (big IF) you are talented and spend your hour building wisely (you won't), at best your EASA IR is free, and at worst you save £2000 and break even anyway. Ok at worst you fail repeatedly and eventually die of old age...
When you take advice from an ATO, remember that they make money from you flying.

[Katamarino]

This is exactly my plan, however the schools I’ve contacted and spoken with to a greater deal either don’t allow passengers or the aircraft is only available / aloud to be taken away for 2 days and 3 nights. Where did you do yours if you don’t mind me asking ?

For long trips I have used Palm Beach Flight Training in Florida, and also Channel Islands Aviation in California. Both have been very helpful. I would suggest just searching flight schools and starting to contact people; don't go for big pilot mill places, but independent locations with a bigger fleet are often good. For each of my trips I probably contacted 10+ locations before finding one that I could work with. It helps a lot if you can take an airplane that they don't get so much use out of such as an RG.

[Parson]

I'd recommend hour building in the area where you will do your CPL training. Get to know the local airspace, frequencies, VRPs, airfields etc. Get some advice from your intended CPL school re structured hour building. Make best use of your time.

[Pilot DAR]

ComeFly:

Moncton Flight College l Established in 1929 - Home (http://www.mfc.nb.ca/main.html)

https://lakecountryairways.ca/

https://www.bramptonflightcentre.com/

Durham Flight Centre - Flight Training School, Oshawa, Ontario. (http://durhamflightcentre.com/)

Pilot Training: Harv's Air Flight Training (http://www.harvsair.com/)

Victoria Flying Club (http://www.flyvfc.com/)

...are a few of many in Canada

[tescoapp]

I would advise saving some hours for the area where your going to do your CPL as well.

Do some nav ex's before you start.

As for where to do the rest?

Personally I would have a look at New Zealand Or somewhere else with out all the security nonsense and I would actually want to go. I haven't a clue what the prices are like in NZ though.

[ComeFlyWithB]

I have looked briefly into New Zealand however bar... maybe 1 outfit everywhere is similar in price to Australia - Astronimical

i have thought about using Poland for a few just before starting the CPL with the school I intend to use actually, could be a good idea 🙂 ComeFly:

Moncton Flight College l Established in 1929 - Home (http://www.mfc.nb.ca/main.html)

https://lakecountryairways.ca/

https://www.bramptonflightcentre.com/

Durham Flight Centre - Flight Training School, Oshawa, Ontario. (http://durhamflightcentre.com/)

Pilot Training: Harv's Air Flight Training (http://www.harvsair.com/)

Victoria Flying Club (http://www.flyvfc.com/)

...are a few of many in Canada

Thats great, much appreciated. £75 an hour wet seems to be the price to beat, best in the us seems to be chandler ... pros and cons to all I imagine. Example being would most hours in South Africa with various runway types etc look good in a logbook when it comes to job hunting down the line . .. . Or is it just about getting them in to tick a box!

[Duchess_Driver]

Yes, it is about numbers...but not in the way you think. 10 hours challenging yourself in terms of environment/operation/climate etc are worth far more than 100 hours in the ‘Local area”.

Those that have “spread their wings”🤪 are generally far better situationally and operationally. I’d recommend doing a bit in all of the OP but then you’ll spend more money travelling between. Whilst cost is an issue it should not be the only consideration.

[Ultranomad]

10 hours challenging yourself in terms of environment/operation/climate etc are worth far more than 100 hours in the ‘Local area”.
True. Incidentally, it also makes sense to challenge oneself in terms of aircraft types. My visual approaches and landings improved substantially after checking out on several differently behaving types. In particular, military trainers appear to be quite helpful for this purpose.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi All,

So PPL skills test is in sight as is starting ATPL, the question is now Hour Building!

Where, when, how many hours in each place etc ....

Arizona - Angel city flyers / Chandler
Florida - Pilots Paradise
San Diego - American aviation
South Africa - Stellenbosch Flying Club
Home club / Airfield - Barton

anyone with experience / advice or anything to chip in please feel free to contribute, looking for the best experience / most affordable options.

Tha ks is in advance!!

Question - what do you hope to do with your ATPL?

Airline pilot? - somewhere you can do complex interesting long trips; the USA is ideal.

Instructor? Move around getting hours in multiple types.

It's a stepping stone to a military career? - Learn aerobatics!

Not sure, just want it: Get an interesting and affordable share in the UK, go farmstrip touring.

G

[ComeFlyWithB]

True. Incidentally, it also makes sense to challenge oneself in terms of aircraft types. My visual approaches and landings improved substantially after checking out on several differently behaving types. In particular, military trainers appear to be quite helpful for this purpose.


I completely agree, on the subject of challenges does the night rating have to be EASA or could I do a ‘night rating’ at any school say in the US ?

[Ultranomad]

does the night rating have to be EASA or could I do a ‘night rating’ at any school say in the US ?
Maybe you can, but it's only 5 hours of training and no skill test, so it's easier to do it in Europe to avoid jumping through extra bureaucratic hoops.

[ComeFlyWithB]

Question - what do you hope to do with your ATPL?

Airline pilot? - somewhere you can do complex interesting long trips; the USA is ideal.

Instructor? Move around getting hours in multiple types.

It's a stepping stone to a military career? - Learn aerobatics!

Not sure, just want it: Get an interesting and affordable share in the UK, go farmstrip touring.

G

Airline pilot is the ultimate goal initially followed by maybe instructing in a good few years just to keep a hand in with the fun stuff whilst helping people simultaneously.

The USA was the first / preferred choice given I know it well and been fortunate enough to travel around it often and live there however I like the look of the added experience in South Africa however safety could be the big down side / I don’t think it’s as straightforward as elsewhere. Australia is out of the question, it’s far too expensive compared to elsewhere. New Zeland ... has potential if a good flight deal comes up, I recently saw flights and a camper van for 2/3 weeks for just under £1000! But with that being said I’ve only found maybe 1/2 schools which have rates comparable to the states.
Lastly Canada also looks to have some very good challenging flying experience (I don’t intend to just burn holes in the sky except going over Airwork) .....

[SeGMaN]

I assume you are going on to a CPL/IR? If so then you should get an ICAO IR during your hour building (IR you're paying for the aircraft anyway so you just pay the extra for an instructor) FAA is probably the cheapest and easiest.

Then spend 50 hours as PIC under IFR practicing NDB holds, procedural approaches and the odd ILS. You'll then be allowed to take your EASA IR with no minimums (normally it's 40 SIM and 15 multi) - just train to proficiency. That will also allow you to do the short 15 hour cpl course as well.
would you please explain this with more details

[rudestuff]

I'll try. (Assuming MEIR)

​​​​​ You should always do your IR before CPL - because the CPL requires 200 hours. If you do the CPL first, then you'll still need to do an additional 17 hours afterwards, taking your total time to 217, plus 30 hours on the SIM. Don't get me wrong, simulators are useful, but are quite often the same price as an SEP, so you're better off training in a real plane. Why? Because it all counts towards your 200 hours which means you're only actually paying for the instructor.

10 hours is common to both IR and CPL, meaning you can do a 25 hour CPL followed by a 45 hour IR, or you can do a 55 hour IR (15 multi) followed by a 15 hour CPL (in a single). This is all assuming you do a 'full' IR course - there are three other options:

CBIR: requires 45 hours, can be done all in the aircraft. The last 15 must be Multi. A really good option: basically go through the IMC training twice, then 15 hours of IR training in a multi.

ICAO conversion: for guys with an ICAO PPL - get an IR as part of hour building - then convert. Requires 15 hours, minimum 5 multi.

ICAO CBIR conversion: if you hold an ICAO IR AND have 50 hours PIC under IFR, which you can get during your hour building, you can do a straight conversion. No minimum multi time required, maximum potential to save money.

If you want to get really creative, you can do any of the above in a single, then convert to multi, but that requires a second full IR test so I wouldn't recommend it. There are a lot of options, so do your homework!

[Russell Gulch]

Hi All,

So PPL skills test is in sight as is starting ATPL, the question is now Hour Building!

Where, when, how many hours in each place etc ....

Arizona - Angel city flyers / Chandler
Florida - Pilots Paradise
San Diego - American aviation
South Africa - Stellenbosch Flying Club
Home club / Airfield - Barton

anyone with experience / advice or anything to chip in please feel free to contribute, looking for the best experience / most affordable options.

Tha ks is in advance!!

Buy a cheap LAA Permit aircraft with a VW beetle engine for £3K and pay £12 per hour for supermarket petrol. Insurance is £250 p.a. It can be done (I did it last year). Hangarage is likely your highest cost. Russ

[NorthernCounties]

Numerous outfits in Czechia, Hungary and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. You can hire a Tecnam Echo for an equivalent of £65 per hour wet at LKBE, or C150 or C152 for £75...85 at LKLT, LKJA, LKPM, LHKA just to name a few. Inexpensive lodging, too; some flying clubs have basic accommodations right at the airfield. If you are into tailwheel aircraft, there are options like Piper Cub, Zlin 126/226 etc.
Hi Ultranomad,

Which outfits offer those deals at LKLT or LKJA? Would be very interested in the C150/C152 for hour building?

Cheers,

Northern Counties

[Ultranomad]

@NorthernCounties, it's Letecká škola Jaroměř (http://www.leteckaturistika.cz/) at LKJA and Happy Aviation (http://www.happyaviation.cz) at LKLT, though the latter seems to have raised the price.

[NorthernCounties]

Thanks Ultranomad!