Air France on the ropes (again)?

[NumptyAussie]

The BBC is reporting that the current pay dispute at Air France may see the name disappear

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44021431

[Thaihawk]

The BBC is reporting that the current pay dispute at Air France may see the name disappear

Air France could 'disappear' as more strikes begin - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44021431)

The present French government seems to be prepared to call the unions' bluff, unlike previous French administrations that have always buckled to union pressure.

IMHO, not before time.

[Sam Asama]

The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.

[ThreeThreeMike]

The present French government seems to be prepared to call the unions' bluff, unlike previous French administrations that have always buckled to union pressure.

IMHO, not before time.

Macron's government also says it will not agree to the demands of SNCF unions for a raise, in spite of the rail strikes which have been disrupting the French rail system for over a month.

The train operators' desires for higher wages along with the lifetime employment and full pension at age 52 provided in current contracts is certainly understandable, but I assume the government recognizes the future financial obligations may be impossible to meet.

[pax2908]

The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.

I, on the contrary, will go out of my way to fly AF. KLM is very good, too. I have once in a while been affected by strikes (like now), but this is not what matters to me in the long run.

[ATC Watcher]

Air France may disappear , to be restarted as France air, with more hours/year half the fleet, half the staff and half the salaries..That is what happened with Sabena and to a lesser extend with Swissair. No reason it could not be done with AF.
Hop could also become "independent " and take over all the A 319-320-321s.. a la Eurowings..
But everyone in France seems to agree that the statu-quo is not tenable..certainly not with petrol prices going up as they currently do.

[schweizer2]

The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.

Funny that, I have always found KLM to offer the cheapest of the fares and absolutely hate it when the AF website puts me on KLM flights.

Every single trip with KLM has been miserable and I, as well as many colleagues, avoid them at all cost.

Enough said.

[sitigeltfel]

Any organisation that agrees to, and puts in place a system whereby its employees receive a pension for far longer than the years they have worked, deserves to go under.

You tend to find that these are either state run, or where the state has a sizeable interest, and that other taxpayers have to fork out for benefits that they, themselves, can never dream of.

[Hotel Tango]

Schweizer2,

It can depend on where you're booking from. Where I live (in The Netherlands) the KLM site tends to offer cheaper fares with AF than KL simply because it involves a connection in Paris. However, if I book KL from either BRU or DUS (via AMS) I can get equally good bargains. Since I live closer (by road) to both BRU and DUS than AMS that suits me nicely. Same as a poster above, I avoid AF like the plague, even if it costs me more to do so.

[schweizer2]

Who do these AF people think they? expecting higher salaries, platinum pensions, short working hours, long holidays, and short working life - they sound like British MP's? damn cheek!

Funny isn't it, crews trying to protect the contract they have enjoyed for many years, left unsustainable due to other companies being able to operate on a much cheaper basis than AF.
I guess this has nothing to do with other crews accepting worse terms within the industry, I suppose the salaries we now receive are considered normal. Perhaps we should consider making the pay 2 fly schemes the new norm. Surely it should become another industry standard reduction to our expected career packages.

We are quick to judge and mock the French for their endless disputes and blame them for being inconsiderate when it comes to causing inconvenience to the travelling public, or us when we are delayed by ATC strikes, but hey, I wouldn't want to be a nuisance, I'll just sign my contract reductions as they come.

[Joe le Taxi]

The KLM cabin product has improved, but the reason I avoid ending up on an Air France operated flight is the fear for my own safety, rational or otherwise. For good measure, AF product is ok-ish when it all goes to plan, but when the wheels fall of, the customer is typically faced with an arrogant "tant-pis"!

A winding up of the AF brand has the benefit of closing a book on decades of terrible and avoidable accidents, which do a disservice to KLMs good record since the 70s.

[stilton]

Surprised no one else has raised the
subject of the Air France safety record


I wouldn’t fly on them, they own a unique distinction in Europe though, a supposedly first world major airline with a third world safety record.


AF447 was the last straw for me

[oldchina]

Joe le Taxi

Let's see how long your post survives before it's modded out.
In the past I've mentioned AF's safety record, in a polite way, and bingo! deleted.

[8029848s]

Basket case airline.

AF, and the blame is both of staff and managers, has simply never moved on from 15 years ago.

Will KLM has restructured, cut costs and largely carried AF for many years the French have shown an incredible degree of arrogance in their approach to the industry, and the changing world.

Are we really surprised by this....errrr....no. AF simply do not deserve to exist.

[beamender99]

BBC reports
"Shares in Air France fell 14% in early Monday trading, reacting to the latest events at the troubled airline.
It was the first chance investors had had to respond to chief executive Jean-Marc Janaillac's resignation and comments by France's economy minister."

[Tom Sawyer]

So if AF is struggling in it's current form.....how is it going to fund it's part of the JV with KLM to buy of 31% of VS which has not been completed? More accountancy smoke and mirrors?

[oldchina]

The only people who need Air France are those who, directly or indirectly, receive money from it.
Paying passengers who now give money to Air France will simply be able to give it to someone else.

[Lonewolf_50]

Replying to assist Ibobi in trouble shooting.

[RAT 5]

A couple of decades or more ago, well before the AK/KLM merger (or whatever it is) was mooted, and KLM had spurned the advances of BA, AF was technically bankrupt. It was reported that the interest payments on their debt was greater than their operating income (I think it was). At the time KLM was reasonably profitable for a national carrier at that time.
AF needed restructuring. Brussels had already said no government subsidies to the likes of Alitalia, Olympic, Iberia etc. The French president went to Brussels and demanded that AF could not go to the wall. He asked to be allowed to give 3 'tranches' of money over a 2-3 year period to bail out AF. The 2nd & 3rd tranche would only be allowed by Brussels if there had been significant positive restructuring. Somehow or other he conned Brussels into agreement and they survived where others struggled. The irony is that KLM then had its own woes and AF stepped in as the senior partner, just as BA had tried and been rejected. I think KLM have been regretting it ever since. Both have strong unions, but of very different hue, as is the management.
What I never understood, not could I find anyone on the inside to tel me, is what happened to the 5 year transition plan. There was supposed to be a 5 year transition period after the partnership was established, and then what. And in all the negotiations and valuations you never heard anything of Martinair or Transavia's future being mentioned, nor even their value being included. One wonders if they had been included, and personnel, would that group have been larger than AF and then KLM might have had the lead. There is possibly much hidden behind closed doors and in dusty files.

[dudubrdx]

Nobody talks about the shareholders.
When AF bought part of KLM, who were in not so good shape, they did so at a much higher market rate, to the shareholders delight.
Parting ways now would obviously not be in AFs benefit ( wait and see),so why exactly would they?

[wingview]

KLM is not so worried about AF if they would collaps. The biggest fear is when Delta would say goodbye because that's the biggest moneymaker for KLM and in the end for AF and ofcourse who go on strike. I believe that when AF would go down it opens better opportunities for KLM then it has today.

[sitigeltfel]

AF reckon they will be able to operate 95% of long haul and 75% of shorter routes during tomorrow's strike, with an overall figure of 80%.

[BeT]

AF does not deserve to exist for a multitude of reasons.

As someone who speaks directly to the pilots each and every day, I will also never, ever take an AF flight.

The poster above had it right. 1st world airline, 3rd world safety record.

[grizzled]

As a passenger it's the arrogance or condescension of Air France cabin crew that drove me away. As a professional with way too many years in this business, the difference in safety culture between the two carriers (KLM and AF) is astonishing in this supposedly enlightened world of proactive safety management

[cactusbusdrvr]

Surprised no one else has raised the
subject of the Air France safety record


I wouldn’t fly on them, they own a unique distinction in Europe though, a supposedly first world major airline with a third world safety record.


AF447 was the last straw for me




I am currently finishing up transition training to the 777. One of my instructors works for CAE on the Citation fleet. He had a recently retired AF pilot come through for a type rating. The instructor was astounded by the lack of flying ability demonstrated by the pilot. He allowed the jet to slow to a stall without recognizing the imminent departure from controlled flight. He seemed oblivious.

One pilot does not make it the rule but this does draw a parallel to AF 447.

[Fortissimo]

I am also an AF avoider for safety reasons. Even after the inexcusable loss of AF447, there was a succession of incidents (Alpha floor activation etc.) showing that the AF training and standards staff did not recognise the problem that was staring them in the face. I am told that AF pilots are briefed pre-LPC on exact nature of the emergency they will get, when it will occur and what the expected solution is - all as a result of union pressure. That goes some way to explaining the lack of ability and knowledge that others are finding with ex-AF people. And the national influence in EASA suggests it's not going to be tackled soon.

[Mama Mangrove]

It’s about time Air France disappeared without trace. It’s an appalling airline with arrogant cabin staff and a safety record to be ashamed of. I was very disappointed when AF became the lead in the merger with KLM - it devalued KLMs réputation in my eyes and I dreaded that they would sink to the same low standards as AF. Thank goodness that didn’t happen, but I would be very happy if this leads to the end of the JV. Now that I’m old and have to pay my own airfares, I’d rather fly with KLM even if it costs me more (which is rarely the case). I feel safer flying with many of the airlines I fly with in developing countries than I do with Air Chance.

[czarnajama]

AF447 was the last straw for me

And let's not forget AF 358 (2 Aug. 2005). I saw the smoke from that one ...

[Eric Janson]

The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.

Prior to the Air France merger KLM was running out of cash with no end in sight. Without the Air France merger KLM would have shut down within 6 months.

This was covered in the Business publications at the time.

[MCDU2]

Couldn't agree more schweizer2. The FR and other loco guys that join our airline are often the most vocal when it comes to enforcing working conditions and having a good moan. Shame they didn't practice what they preach earlier in their careers.

[Banana Joe]

Couldn't agree more schweizer2. The FR and other loco guys that join our airline are often the most vocal when it comes to enforcing working conditions and having a good moan. Shame they didn't practice what they preach earlier in their careers.

Shame professionals didn't do the same 10-20 years ago and failed to saveguard terms and conditions.Too easy to blame those starting their careers. Get a grip.

[schweizer2]

Shame professionals didn't do the same 10-20 years ago and failed to saveguard terms and conditions.Too easy to blame those starting their careers. Get a grip.

Hard to stop someone signing their own name on a contract with lessor terms.
Crews in company X can't stop new pilots joining company Y at worst terms, thus forcing company X to try reduce terms in its own airline.

[wiggy]

Shame professionals didn't do the same 10-20 years ago and failed to saveguard terms and conditions.Too easy to blame those starting their careers. Get a grip.

What do you suggest? I get as p... off as the next guy when I see our union promoting Pilot recruiting fares, some of my current colleagues dumbing down the job and pretty much saying “come along and join us on the beach, ‘cos anyone do the day job” on their home videos. I must admit I get hacked off with former colleagues colluding with training organisations, but I’m not sure how we stop any of that.

As Schweizer has correctly pointed out in some countries it is extremely difficult, to say the least, to take action on behalf of employees or prospective employees of another company, and if we did try and restrict “employee supply” (cf. perhaps the UK’s BMA) then I am absolutely 100% certain that many of the newbies who will “do anything to get into aviation” would be screaming from the roof tops that older pilots were blocking them from getting into the industry..and TBH it is their right to work for pants T&Cs.

[Rwy in Sight]

To all of those who are concerned about AF flying record: Yes up until 2012 it seems they were in a mess but currently they are doing ok or at least they stay out trouble - they use the aircraft after the landing so they are ok in my books.

[Intrance]

To all of those who are concerned about AF flying record: Yes up until 2012 it seems they were in a mess but currently they are doing ok or at least they stay out trouble - they use the aircraft after the landing so they are ok in my books.

You can get very close to disaster without the aircraft ever being the problem and very usable after landing...

[SeenItAll]

And let's not forget AF 358 (2 Aug. 2005). I saw the smoke from that one ...

While perhaps the long landing in a driving rainstorm was ill-advised, the actions of the AF cabin crew to completely evacuate the cabin through a partial collection of exits with growing fires and within a minute or two without major injuries has been considered exemplary.

[tsgas]

While perhaps the long landing in a driving rainstorm was ill-advised, the actions of the AF cabin crew to completely evacuate the cabin through a partial collection of exits with growing fires and within a minute or two without major injuries has been considered exemplary.
The crew gambled with the A340 and the pax lives . The pax will be affected emotionally for life and a beautiful A/C was destroyed. " In aviation "Sometimes the best lndg is the one we choose not to make". Diverting to YOW would of been the wise choice.

[SeenItAll]

The crew gambled with the A340 and the pax lives . The pax will be affected emotionally for life and a beautiful A/C was destroyed. " In aviation "Sometimes the best lndg is the one we choose not to make". Diverting to YOW would of been the wise choice.

Did you read my post? I did not excuse the flight deck crew from perhaps making a severely wrong decision with respect to their landing. But others on this thread have been slagging on AF cabin crew, too. I was only noting that in this instance, the cabin crew is viewed to have performed extremely well. And as you know, cabin crew are "here primarily for your safety."

[tsgas]

Did you read my post? I did not excuse the flight deck crew from perhaps making a severely wrong decision with respect to their landing. But others on this thread have been slagging on AF cabin crew, too. I was only noting that in this instance, the cabin crew is viewed to have performed extremely well. And as you know, cabin crew are "here primarily for your safety."
Are you joking about reading your post ? There is no "perhaps" involved in deciding to be safe or reckless and destroying an A/C. Accept the blame for one's mistakes and don't repeat them in the future. Trying to be PC will just end up in costing more lives like with the crash and total loss of lives in AF 447.

[ironbutt57]

You can get very close to disaster without the aircraft ever being the problem and very usable after landing...

like the big mess with the extremely unstable 380 approach and subsequent mess during the go-around at JFK, a few of the same type automation mis-management events on other fleets...passengers never hear to these things and are blissfully unaware..

[fox niner]

So which airline is the first to go? Air France or Alitalia?

Personally I think that Alitalia is in an even worse position than AF. But despite all this, they are still flying around.

[Dannyboy39]

It’s about time Air France disappeared without trace.

Just wow. And for the 10,000s of people who work for it?

[4EvahLearning]

like the big mess with the extremely unstable 380 approach and subsequent mess during the go-around at JFK, a few of the same type automation mis-management events on other fleets...passengers never hear to these things and are blissfully unaware..

Unless we read forums like PPRUNE.....geeze, what an eye opener....but I consider every day I make it home to my own bed a good day, albeit by pushbike, automobile, train or aircraft.