Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air France on the ropes (again)?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air France on the ropes (again)?

Old 6th May 2018, 22:37
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Under a tree in the NT
Posts: 69
Air France on the ropes (again)?

The BBC is reporting that the current pay dispute at Air France may see the name disappear

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44021431

Last edited by NumptyAussie; 6th May 2018 at 22:38. Reason: Wanted to change title
NumptyAussie is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 23:50
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ban Chiang,Thailand
Age: 62
Posts: 132
Originally Posted by NumptyAussie View Post
The BBC is reporting that the current pay dispute at Air France may see the name disappear

Air France could 'disappear' as more strikes begin - BBC News
The present French government seems to be prepared to call the unions' bluff, unlike previous French administrations that have always buckled to union pressure.

IMHO, not before time.
Thaihawk is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 01:41
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Spice Islands
Age: 53
Posts: 94
The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.
Sam Asama is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 04:37
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by Thaihawk View Post
The present French government seems to be prepared to call the unions' bluff, unlike previous French administrations that have always buckled to union pressure.

IMHO, not before time.
Macron's government also says it will not agree to the demands of SNCF unions for a raise, in spite of the rail strikes which have been disrupting the French rail system for over a month.

The train operators' desires for higher wages along with the lifetime employment and full pension at age 52 provided in current contracts is certainly understandable, but I assume the government recognizes the future financial obligations may be impossible to meet.
ThreeThreeMike is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 07:29
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: FR
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by Sam Asama View Post
The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.
I, on the contrary, will go out of my way to fly AF. KLM is very good, too. I have once in a while been affected by strikes (like now), but this is not what matters to me in the long run.
pax2908 is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 07:52
  #6 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 69
Posts: 2,521
Air France may disappear , to be restarted as France air, with more hours/year half the fleet, half the staff and half the salaries..That is what happened with Sabena and to a lesser extend with Swissair. No reason it could not be done with AF.
Hop could also become "independent " and take over all the A 319-320-321s.. a la Eurowings..
But everyone in France seems to agree that the statu-quo is not tenable..certainly not with petrol prices going up as they currently do.
ATC Watcher is online now  
Old 7th May 2018, 08:01
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by Sam Asama View Post
The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.
Funny that, I have always found KLM to offer the cheapest of the fares and absolutely hate it when the AF website puts me on KLM flights.

Every single trip with KLM has been miserable and I, as well as many colleagues, avoid them at all cost.

Enough said.
schweizer2 is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 08:47
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 67
Posts: 883
Any organisation that agrees to, and puts in place a system whereby its employees receive a pension for far longer than the years they have worked, deserves to go under.

You tend to find that these are either state run, or where the state has a sizeable interest, and that other taxpayers have to fork out for benefits that they, themselves, can never dream of.
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 09:01
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,254
Schweizer2,

It can depend on where you're booking from. Where I live (in The Netherlands) the KLM site tends to offer cheaper fares with AF than KL simply because it involves a connection in Paris. However, if I book KL from either BRU or DUS (via AMS) I can get equally good bargains. Since I live closer (by road) to both BRU and DUS than AMS that suits me nicely. Same as a poster above, I avoid AF like the plague, even if it costs me more to do so.
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 09:31
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by Trav a la View Post
Who do these AF people think they? expecting higher salaries, platinum pensions, short working hours, long holidays, and short working life - they sound like British MP's? damn cheek!
Funny isn't it, crews trying to protect the contract they have enjoyed for many years, left unsustainable due to other companies being able to operate on a much cheaper basis than AF.
I guess this has nothing to do with other crews accepting worse terms within the industry, I suppose the salaries we now receive are considered normal. Perhaps we should consider making the pay 2 fly schemes the new norm. Surely it should become another industry standard reduction to our expected career packages.

We are quick to judge and mock the French for their endless disputes and blame them for being inconsiderate when it comes to causing inconvenience to the travelling public, or us when we are delayed by ATC strikes, but hey, I wouldn't want to be a nuisance, I'll just sign my contract reductions as they come.
schweizer2 is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 09:54
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chances are, not at home
Posts: 254
The KLM cabin product has improved, but the reason I avoid ending up on an Air France operated flight is the fear for my own safety, rational or otherwise. For good measure, AF product is ok-ish when it all goes to plan, but when the wheels fall of, the customer is typically faced with an arrogant "tant-pis"!

A winding up of the AF brand has the benefit of closing a book on decades of terrible and avoidable accidents, which do a disservice to KLMs good record since the 70s.
Joe le Taxi is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 10:08
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,778
Surprised no one else has raised the
subject of the Air France safety record


I wouldn’t fly on them, they own a unique distinction in Europe though, a supposedly first world major airline with a third world safety record.


AF447 was the last straw for me


stilton is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 10:12
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: on a blue balloon
Posts: 320
Joe le Taxi

Let's see how long your post survives before it's modded out.
In the past I've mentioned AF's safety record, in a polite way, and bingo! deleted.
oldchina is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 10:41
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Age: 50
Posts: 15
Basket case airline.

AF, and the blame is both of staff and managers, has simply never moved on from 15 years ago.

Will KLM has restructured, cut costs and largely carried AF for many years the French have shown an incredible degree of arrogance in their approach to the industry, and the changing world.

Are we really surprised by this....errrr....no. AF simply do not deserve to exist.
8029848s is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 12:06
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Esher, Surrey
Posts: 436
BBC reports
"Shares in Air France fell 14% in early Monday trading, reacting to the latest events at the troubled airline.
It was the first chance investors had had to respond to chief executive Jean-Marc Janaillac's resignation and comments by France's economy minister."
beamender99 is online now  
Old 7th May 2018, 12:19
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: At the OMT
Posts: 116
So if AF is struggling in it's current form.....how is it going to fund it's part of the JV with KLM to buy of 31% of VS which has not been completed? More accountancy smoke and mirrors?
Tom Sawyer is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 12:25
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: on a blue balloon
Posts: 320
The only people who need Air France are those who, directly or indirectly, receive money from it.
Paying passengers who now give money to Air France will simply be able to give it to someone else.
oldchina is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 13:37
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 59
Posts: 5,264
test message

Replying to assist Ibobi in trouble shooting.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 13:59
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,513
A couple of decades or more ago, well before the AK/KLM merger (or whatever it is) was mooted, and KLM had spurned the advances of BA, AF was technically bankrupt. It was reported that the interest payments on their debt was greater than their operating income (I think it was). At the time KLM was reasonably profitable for a national carrier at that time.
AF needed restructuring. Brussels had already said no government subsidies to the likes of Alitalia, Olympic, Iberia etc. The French president went to Brussels and demanded that AF could not go to the wall. He asked to be allowed to give 3 'tranches' of money over a 2-3 year period to bail out AF. The 2nd & 3rd tranche would only be allowed by Brussels if there had been significant positive restructuring. Somehow or other he conned Brussels into agreement and they survived where others struggled. The irony is that KLM then had its own woes and AF stepped in as the senior partner, just as BA had tried and been rejected. I think KLM have been regretting it ever since. Both have strong unions, but of very different hue, as is the management.
What I never understood, not could I find anyone on the inside to tel me, is what happened to the 5 year transition plan. There was supposed to be a 5 year transition period after the partnership was established, and then what. And in all the negotiations and valuations you never heard anything of Martinair or Transavia's future being mentioned, nor even their value being included. One wonders if they had been included, and personnel, would that group have been larger than AF and then KLM might have had the lead. There is possibly much hidden behind closed doors and in dusty files.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 7th May 2018, 14:54
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Madrid
Age: 33
Posts: 87
Nobody talks about the shareholders.
When AF bought part of KLM, who were in not so good shape, they did so at a much higher market rate, to the shareholders delight.
Parting ways now would obviously not be in AFs benefit ( wait and see),so why exactly would they?
dudubrdx is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.