Aircraft coming towards you on base leg.

[AerBabe]

You're flying base leg to land, and the tower tells you there is an aircraft heading towards you, 2 nm away, height unknown. Assuming you can't see it, what should you do?

Yes, this did happen to me a few weeks ago. :)

[distaff_beancounter]

:confused: PANIC? :confused:

[AerBabe]

Fortunately I was with an instructor, so I assume I'm allowed to stay calm until he panics? :D

[QDMQDMQDM]

Presuming it's on a direct reciprocal...
1. Turn right.
2. Look for it as you do so.
3. Wait for the tower to tell you it's gone past.
4. Get back into the circuit to land.

(I must get a busier job -- I'm wasting much too much time on this damned website.)

QDM

[sennadog]

Well, the first thing I'd do is flash my landing lights a few times in the hope that he'll see me first.....

Assuming he isn't in contact with the TWR then I'd probably make an early turn onto Final whilst informing ATC of my decision and proceed as normal whilst keeping a good lookout on the basis that it's better to be in a position to land and "below" oncoming traffic than in a possible conflicting situation.

What did you do?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Along with all the other sugestions, I would remember that I was probably in a landing configuration (airspeed, Vfe, and height).

[QDMQDMQDM]

Well, the first thing I'd do is flash my landing lights a few times in the hope that he'll see me first.....

Could be a Tornado coming through the haze at 450 kts with his head in the cockpit. Admittedly, though, you'd expect ATC to say the traffic was coming fast if that was the case.

QDM

[Final 3 Greens]

Well it would depend....

If I was under ATC, I'd expect the controller to give avoiding action, but if he/she was indecisive, I'd keep a very sharp lookout and be prepared to see and avoid, including configuring the a/c for a quick evasion.

If it was an A/g or AFISO tower service I would be keeping a sharp look out and be prepared to make a sharp left or right accordingly.

Most likely the traffic is above the circuit, but there is no room for complacency.

I've had an aircraft climb up the glideslope towards me on a 2 mile final under ATC, who were not aware of it's presence! We saw it at about 3/4 mile and took avoiding action.

[sennadog]

QDMQDMQDM . This is my standard response when I'm near other aricraft and if a Tornado anywhere near my I'd be too busy gawping at it to make any rational decision!:D

[Chocks Wahay]

Reply "Traffic copied, negative visual contact, looking" or words to that effect. If he's 2 miles away and moving at similar speed then you will probably have turned final before you meet him.

Continue the approach keeping a good lookout in all directions, remembering that there may be other traffic that even ATC doesn't know about. Turn final as normal, but bear in mind that this will put you at 90 degrees to the alleged traffic and thus make it harder to see. Turning away from the circuit may make matters worse if the other traffic has seen you and is assuming you will turn final, or if there is other traffic around. Don't forget the usual checks, and remember you're in landing config (ie nearer the stall & the ground) so flying the aircraft becomes even more crucial. If you feel your landing has been compromised, or just that your concentration isn't there, consider going around.

It is very disconcerting, a similar thing happened to me on my QXC. I was landing at Newcastle, having never been there before. I was given a right base join for the westerly runway, as I apporached from the North. As I was half way along base, I spotted traffic at the same height reciprocal heading. As it happened ATC knew about him, and he was on a left base, but I had missed that on the radio. Gave me an anxious few seconds though.

[suction]

Here's another .............................

You're flying into the circuit joining on base leg. Airfield info tells you there's traffic ahead on base, and traffic turning crosswind. You can't see the traffic ahead so look for the crosswind traffic and get a visual. You turn your attention back to the traffic ahead. You're at circuit height on the correct QFE and a little suprised you can't get a visual with the traffic ahead. You get a twitchy bum. You're approaching the point where you'd pull the power and start your descent. You pull yourself forward to get a better view and voila ........... The underside of another aircraft comencing a descent maybe 100ft above you.

What do you do ?

[Them thar hills]

I'll switch on ALL the lights, and keep them on.
If you're on base then you'd have about the best field of view anyway, being slightly nose down.
Could be above, outside the ATZ you'd hope. ?!

PS Non-magnetic bicycle clips are still obtainable.

:p

TTH

[macky42]

How about: going around the circuit at Luton, get clearance to finals while downwind. Chug along, turn base, when I hear the tower clear a corporate jet to line up on the reciprocal - he had just plain forgotten I was out there.
I called base with a gentle reminder that he had already cleared me to finals. Sounded a bit flustered when he told me to fly through to the dead side and go round the circuit again..

Another time I was cleared to line up at Goodwood with another aircraft on very short finals. The landing a/c was not on the radio (not the Goodwood frequency anyway ;)) , and the tower guy clearly wasn't looking out the window when he cleared me..

Not having a go at ATC here.

[nonradio]

M42: not an uncommon event! a sound argument for not handing the 'captaincy' of the aircraft to somebody else. Especially if they happen to be sitting on the ground, or in another a/c at the time.

[kabz]

I had someone come in on a 1 mile base above me, just as I was turning left base myself. Luckily I spotted him, and I turned right and extended my downwind.
This was during my checkride prep and my intsructor wasn't too pleased with the other guy...

Could have been nasty as I'm sure he wouldn't have seen me...

[Gunner B12]

At Jandakot airport they operate parallell runways so on virtually all base legs you have aircraft heading towards you. Makes you aware of where to turn finals and also means you have no dead side.

On only my second solo I was on final with another guy on final ahead of me when he just seemed to put the brakes on. Confusing as hell for a student when you find yourself approaching the back of another plane knowing you should overtake to the right hoping like hell he isn't going to do a go around because you are just swinging left to go past him and go around. Fortunately the most testing time I've had so far.

[Evo7]

Another time I was cleared to line up at Goodwood with another aircraft on very short finals. The landing a/c was not on the radio (not the Goodwood frequency anyway ) , and the tower guy clearly wasn't looking out the window when he cleared me..

Not having a go at ATC here.


Macky42

Goodwood is a FIS, so I think the "tower guy" was correct. He issues instructions up to the hold, but information after that - so you're the one who should be looking out of the window for aircraft on short final (as you were), not him.

I suspect he said "report lining up". As a FISO he cannot clear you to line up, although he can tell you to hold, and "report lining up" is what they do when they know traffic is on final (otherwise it's "take off your discretion, surface wind is..." - I cannot remember ever being told to "report lining up" when there is no traffic on final). When they tell you to "report lining up" they are saying that it's your call - if the other traffic is on 8-mile final then feel free to go. If you're not happy, then say "Holding, G-CD".

[RotorHorn]

You boys want to try flying a fling wing at Blackpool. The circuit is deadside and some plank flyers coming down from the overhead deadside don't realise that that's our 'downwind' leg and in a reciprocal direction - number of times in training I could tell you what the other pilot had for breakfast by the stains on his shirt.....

Anyway. best advice I was given was, as soon as you start transmitting to the tower frequency, wap on the old landing light because the ATC usually look at the radio direction finder thingy and then start looking for you in that direction. A light will help.

If you want a really scary story - see if you can get VFRpilotPB to tell his 'how to split a tornado squadron up with a robbo' story....

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[topunicyclist]

So, AerBabe, pray tell what did you do?

[HelenD]

On my last lesson I was on final when another aircraft turned left base. ATC asked the other aircraft if they could see us but the response was unsatisfactory so ATC told us to keep an eye out. My instructor was expecting to see the aircraft out of our left window but instead it apeared in our front window a little closer than we would have liked but still thankfully not close enough for us to take avoiding action.

[ATCbabe]

If I was under ATC, I'd expect the controller to give avoiding action, but if he/she was indecisive, I'd keep a very sharp lookout and be prepared to see and avoid, including configuring the a/c for a quick evasion.


If your vfr you wont get avoiding action!! All we will do is pass traffic info as much as possible. Afraid to say but its see and be seen up there!!

Having said that if I really thought you were gonna hit I would say something!!!

The trouble is if its unknown traffic then its path is unknown, and we could make it worse by turning you into its path:eek:

Different story if you ifr, then your seperation is my responsability and I would certainly give avoiding action. However I would try not to get you that close in the first place to have to avoid!!

Also depends on what airspace your in. If class E then more likely for unknown traffic. If class D then shouldnt be unknown traffic there, although that does not always hold true :mad: :mad:

So tell us aerbabe sis, what did you do?

[PA38]

I was in the late stages of training done all the tests, and just getting the last couple of solo hours at Liverpool.
The TOWER told me to line up and hold on the runway, as I checked the approach I was astonished to see a Cessna about half a mile out on very short final :eek:
I then told the tower about the aircraft on very very short finals, and her reply was it was going around.
She then gave the go around I say again go around call to the Cessna.
This taught me a valuble lesson..no matter WHO tells me its ok including my mum, I will if possible check again and again and agin...;)

[MLS-12D]

I hope the tower offered to pay the Cessna driver for the fuel consumed during the unnecessary go-around ... that'll be the day!

[Final 3 Greens]

ATCBabe

Just for my edification, if I'm VFR on base leg in your circuit, would you expect me to take my own avoiding action, even if it meant over riding your last clearance and impacting your mental game of chess?

This is not a sarky comment, two light aircraft could well be closing at 4 NM per minute and that's 30 seconds to impact in Aerbabe's scenario.

If you didn't give me avoiding action wihtin seconds, I would not hesitate to safeguard my a/c (as I am obliged to) and then that could cause you a headache.

[RotorHorn]

Doesn't just happen to us GA'ers.

I was at Hawarden once, when a BAe 146 on Final decided to go around.

Halfway down the active runway, he banked right and carved straight through the middle of the downwind leg - which had 2 cessna's on it at the time....

whoooops!

[ETOPS773]

My story...
Well..flying around in my flying machine 8 AM,10 of us from the club all shot off early to do solo practise,others went to do x-country flights.

Then Embry Riddle invaded and at least 6 of them came and joined the circuit. ..so it was busy,like rush hour!!
So,flying along on downwind,doing my checks,turning base,and I see this seneca circling at about 500 ft the underneath guys on final,waiting for a gap.
Now the Florida catch 22,if you extend base or go above 1200 ft you bust Daytona airspace so your commited to turning base.
Unicom frequency,no ATC,about 3 instructors telling the a$$hole to wake up and join the circuit jamming up the frequency so you can`t ask him his intentions,and cannot announce your on final.

That spooked me.

[ATCbabe]

Final 3 Greens


if I'm VFR on base leg in your circuit, would you expect me to take my own avoiding action, even if it meant over riding your last clearance and impacting your mental game of chess?


The simple answer is yes!


However I will clarify a few things. If you were in my circuit you would be in class D airspace. Therefore there should be no unknown traffic around. All vfr traffic should be talking to me and will be passed traffic information on the position of all relevant a/c. If they could not see each other I would try and update traffic positions as much as I could, depending on my other workload. I would at no point pass avoiding action to either of them.

Slightly different senario is to add an ifr in the middle. If I passed traffic to you on an ifr but you still couldnt see it then I would tell you to hold/orbit. Im not doing this for your benefit. I am not responsible for seperating vfr/ifr traffic either! My only reason would be that if the ifr a/c asked for avoidance on the vfr I would have to give it. By actively seperating you before that happens I am actually cutting down my own workload!

It does surprise me the amount of vfr ppls that "assume" because they are in class D airspace under ATC that they dont have to "look out" as much. They seem to think that it is a safer environment. In reality it is no different from flying outside controlled airspace. Seperation is still very much their own responsibility.

Slightly different situation if in class E/F/G airspace or indeed if there is unknown traffic in class D. I would still pass as much traffic information as I could, but the decision for avoidance is still up to you!

To get back to your question though, if your a/c was in any danger whatsoever then I would expect you to ignore any instructions that I have given you, and to do what you deem as appropriate to get out of it. As for impacting my mental game of chess, well I have to constantly reassess my game and change it accordinly. Hopefully by avoiding an a/c you will not fly into the teeth of another one!!!

Dont get me wrong here. If I was looking out my tower window and saw two a/c on a collision course I would do everything I could to ensure that they did not hit. I know that I couldnt sleep at night thinking that I could of stopped two vfrs hitting each other, but didnt because I wasnt responsible for them!! The point here is that technically they are responsible to see and be seen all by themselves. If they want to be actively seperated from other a/c and given avoiding action if needed then they must fly svfr/ifr and lets face it that would take all the fun out of flying vfr and going where you want to!!

[sennadog]

AerBabe , put us out of our misery and please tell us what you did!

[Final 3 Greens]

ATCBabe

I very much appreciate your full response. Understanding your view of the world improves mine too.

Rest assured that I consider that the "lookout buck" stops with me at any time, even under SVFR in Class A.

However, I am always conscious that my actions can impact (no pun intended) other circuit traffic too.

Finals

[AerBabe]

Ooops sorry, got distracted!
Left base at Coventry is fairly long, so I wasn't set up for landing. I did have my landing light on though, as I'd just completed one circuit. I decided against turning away, as it would cut down visibility. So basically I continued, but kept my eyes glued up front. Never did see them. Instructor was happy with my decision (he was only there as a pax really).

[Final 3 Greens]

Aerbabe

Opposite direction 2NM, height unknown sounds like radar controller speak.

Does Coventry have radar?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Coventry Radar - 122.0

[AerBabe]

Thanks WBS! :)
Although I was speaking to tower/approach combined, on 119.25...

[ATCbabe]

Twr and app on same frequency!!!:eek: :eek:

Is that legal????:confused:

[Spitoon]

Yes - now TWR and RAD, that might be rather iffy! ;)

[Chilli Monster]

Oh - ATCBabe, the innocence of the NATS employee ;)

Yes - perfectly legal and indeed many units combine and operate the two ratings quite happily together (Sheffield, Plymouth, Gloucester when quiet, Filton at weekends, Cranfield at weekends, Scatsta) to name but a few.

But that is APP (A rating I believe NATS don't teach anymore) as opposed to APR . As Spitoon says, ADC & APR is a bit iffy - in fact downright illegal. Schedule 9 para 1 of the ANO is the relevant bit of reading.

CM

[paulo]

ATCBabe... I know what you mean about 'looking after yourself' when VFR in Class D. I learnt that one early on.

I was PPL circuit bashing, in the apparent womb of tower control, only to find someone going the wrong way downwind. The guy passed about 100ft directly above, having flown a rather unconventional go around. :eek: