BA pilots (A320): Stabilization/Config on final at which altitude?

[Transition]

Hi everyone,

I'm just attending a aircraft noise workshop and discussing a case at EDDM: The noise experts found out that the A320 with IAE-engines (BA) are producing significantly less noise at approx. 2,5 NM on final 08L than A320 with CFM-engines (LH) at the same point.

Now I am wondering: What do you guys do different? LH has to be stabilized at 1000 ft AGL, i. e. gear, config, appropriate sinkrate and thrust.

One idea is that BA is stabilizing at a lower altitude (500 ft?) - could this be the reason?

Thanks for enlightening me :-)

[4468]

One idea is that BA is stabilizing at a lower altitude (500 ft?) - could this be the reason?
HaHaHaHa!!

Only if they want to be sacked!!!

For the avoidance of doubt. BA’s SAC requires correct landing config at 1000’. Though there MAY occasionally be SPECIFIC acceptable reasons why thrust may not yet be set!

That should not be happening regularly. Only on an occasional basis.

Maybe look at land flap settings? Or AUW’s/Div fuels?

Otherwise, it’s just down to engine performance.

[Tay Cough]

BA SOPs require stability at 1000ft above the threshold elevation - earlier in some cases as it is RadAlt dependent and Big Brother (we call it SESMA) is watching you.

Generally, landings are flown using Flap 3 unless circumstances require the use of Flap Full.

[eagle21]

It is posibly down to autothrust vs manual thrust adjustments.

[Fargoo]

BA has these fitted, does LH?

a320 Whine (http://a320whine.com/)

[Black Pudding]

Generally, landings are flown using Flap 3 unless circumstances require the use of Flap Full.


What is the reason for generally Flap 3

[Capt Scribble]

Fuel saving.

[Locked door]

Flap 3 is more fuel and noise efficient so is the default flap unless it would result in extra brake wear, or the IFLD suggests flap full, or there is a tailwind etc.

Also the BA SOP is for “green ops”, ie delaying the drag as long as possible (subject to the 1000 RA stability requirement (speed/slope/config)), plus single engine taxi in/out and minimal APU use.

Plus BA has the -6DB noise suppressors fitted to the entire fleet as per a previous post.

HTH

LD

[DaveReidUK]

BA has these fitted, does LH?

a320 Whine (http://a320whine.com/)

If you try reading your own link, you'll find out.

(it does)

[RexBanner]

Generally, landings are flown using Flap 3 unless circumstances require the use of Flap Full.

I can count on the fingers of two hands the amount of approaches that I’ve flown Config 3 in over two years of flying the bus at BA. Exaggeration in the extreme to say that generally landings are flown with Flap 3. It’s the other way round in my experience.

[4468]

I can count on the fingers of two hands the amount of approaches that I’ve flown Config 3 in over two years of flying the bus at BA.
I accept there are different implications for A319/320/321. But maybe have a chat with your colleagues?

I’m very much in the Tay Cough/Locked door school of thought!

[student88]

Generally, landings are flown using Flap 3 unless circumstances require the use of Flap Full.

Are you even a BA pilot? I haven’t seen anyone fly a flap 3 landing for over 12 months. :zzz:

[RexBanner]

Maybe trust the word of someone who flies the aircraft type the OP was asking about. The use of Medium autobrake is expressly not recommended with Config 3. Good luck making A9 or N5 at Heathrow with Config 3 and Low Autobrake. Incidentally Munich is one place where Config 3 and Low Autobrake could work quite nicely.

But maybe the OP wants answers from 747 drivers transposing their SOP’s onto another aircraft of which they are either unfamiliar or have no recent experience with.

[sudden twang]

But maybe the OP wants answers from 747 drivers transposing their SOP’s onto another aircraft of which they are either unfamiliar or have no recent experience with.[/QUOTE]
Hahaha
Or heaven forbid an A320 pilot transposing their SOPs onto a 747.
It’s perfectly natural but obviously not ideal that if there’s a gap in the manuals to do what you’ve always done previously. It’s a TCs job to identify these gaps a provide appropriate training input. BWDIK.

[wiggy]

With all this arguing about flaps I suspect the OP wishes he/she hadn’t asked.....

Stabilised at 1000’ AAL (though with limited caveats) is the BA company SOP.....

[Fargoo]

If you try reading your own link, you'll find out.

(it does)

Erm, you're quite right Dave. What a plonker :eek:

[Tay Cough]

I can count on the fingers of two hands the amount of approaches that I’ve flown Config 3 in over two years of flying the bus at BA. Exaggeration in the extreme to say that generally landings are flown with Flap 3. It’s the other way round in my experience.

You never flew with me then. I did them most of the time. It particularly suited a 319 in a crosswind.

[Transition]

Thanks a lot for your replies. It seems that it is indeed the engines noise characteristics...

One more thing: Do you guys at BA do the Manual flying with A/THR on or off?

At LH the policy is: Manual flight, Manual thrust.

PS: I do flaps 3 and autobrake LO whenever possible.

[followthegreens]

One more thing: Do you guys at BA do the Manual flying with A/THR on or off?
Good god, no! :)

No A/T off on Minibus or Fatbus I'm afraid. That said, the Minibus has just joined the rest of the world and the landing pilot now selects reverse. So you never know!

[BM2]

The use of Medium autobrake is expressly not recommended with Config 3 .

Do you have a reference for that in any Manual? Or it’s a company restriction/policy?

Thanks

[student88]

I think F3 and no brakes works even better.

[sierra_mike]

Do you have a reference for that in any Manual? Or it’s a company restriction/policy?

from FCTM-PR-NP-SP-Green Operating Procedures-Descent Preparation

When landing performance permits, the best combination to reduce fuel costs and brakes oxidation is: CONF 3 + REV IDLE + Autobrake LO.
If the flight crew needs to reduce the landing distance, they should consider to use the deceleration devices in the following order:

FLAPS FULL
REV MAX
Autobrake MED.

The flight crew should avoid the use of Autobrake MED in combination with CONF 3 and REV IDLE. This is because this configuration highly increases brake temperature and, as a result, brakes oxidation, which may be severe.

[Fursty Ferret]

I personally do Flap 3 once a month only in a 319 as practice incase of an emergency requiring a Flap 3 landing. In a 320 I never do Flap 3

160 to 4 is de rigor at BA unless early rad alt callout or strong tailwind. 08L will almost certainly be flap full due to desire to vacate early.

At roughly 4.4 miles it's gear down, flap 3, flap full in quick succession. Gear must be down by 1000ft. No exceptions.

You're definitely measuring 2.5D from the threshold? Generic Airbus SOP is gear down at 2000ft radio.

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Note the BA SAC makes no mention of thrust, however.

N.B. Never thought F3's were so unpopular... I feel like a heathen!

[DaveReidUK]

160 to 4 is de rigor at BA unless early rad alt callout or strong tailwind. 08L will almost certainly be flap full due to desire to vacate early.

I'm not sure what airport the 08L is a reference to, but at BA's LHR base 160 kts to 4 DME is pretty well de rigeur for everybody.

[Tail-take-off]

Good god, no! :)

No A/T off on Minibus or Fatbus I'm afraid. That said, the Minibus has just joined the rest of the world and the landing pilot now selects reverse. So you never know!

Not yet they don’t. 1st of June!

[EGPFlyer]

from FCTM-PR-NP-SP-Green Operating Procedures-Descent Preparation

When landing performance permits, the best combination to reduce fuel costs and brakes oxidation is: CONF 3 + REV IDLE + Autobrake LO.
If the flight crew needs to reduce the landing distance, they should consider to use the deceleration devices in the following order:

FLAPS FULL
REV MAX
Autobrake MED.

The flight crew should avoid the use of Autobrake MED in combination with CONF 3 and REV IDLE. This is because this configuration highly increases brake temperature and, as a result, brakes oxidation, which may be severe.

No such restriction in our orange FCTM so must be company specific.... that being said it’s a sensible plan. There’s no point in hammering the brakes to make an early exit when you can reduce the energy using Full flap. :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

I think the BA lack of practice at using manual thrust was mentioned in the accident report following the double cowl loss.

[Check Airman]

I think the BA lack of practice at using manual thrust was mentioned in the accident report following the double cowl loss.

Indeed it was. It boggles the mind that they haven't learned.

[Nil further]

There was also another special , unique to BA procedure in that report ........you know the one where the Captain shuts down an engine without telling the other guy or getting cross check .

The worlds favourite airline .

[BM2]

No such restriction in our orange FCTM so must be company specific.... that being said it’s a sensible plan. There’s no point in hammering the brakes to make an early exit when you can reduce the energy using Full flap. :ok:

Same thing here. Nothing like this in our manuals. But it makes sense...

[sierra_mike]

Nothing like this in our manuals

No such restriction in our orange FCTM so must be company specific

interesting! thought of the FCTM more like a generic document, which isn't really customized. evenmore interesting as there are are a few airbus-things in our FCTM which we do differently and our company doens't really bother us with all the fuelsaving strategies (management appeals more to our common sense)