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View Full Version : Death knell for Great Lakes Airlines


340drvr
31st Mar 2018, 16:52
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/27/great-lakes-airlines-suspends-flights-dia/

Hotel Tango
31st Mar 2018, 19:19
Very unfortunate, they've been going for quite a while.

A Squared
31st Mar 2018, 19:49
Very unfortunate, they've been going for quite a while.

Unfortunate for the people employed there who will have to find new jobs, on that I can agree. Other than that, I'm not seeing the unfortunate part. Bear in mind that Great Lakes was the kind of operator who removed all but 9 seats from a 19 seat airplane, for no other reason than so they could operate scheduled service under part 135 instread of part 121, and thus hire 250 hour pilots at their (lowest in the industry) poverty wages instead of increasing their pay scale to attract 1500 hour pilots. Great Lakes was the lowest of the bottom feeders, and went to great lengths to maintain that position.

From a slightly different perspective, Great Lakes existed pretty much exclusively to feed on "Essential Air Services " contracts, in which they are paid to fly route's which don't have the demand to have air service. Just the fact that they were apparently able to serve the needs of the destinations with a 9 seat airplane should tell you about the real need for 7 day a week scheduled air service. We aren't talking about isolated, road-less communities where the is no other practical means means of transportation. The Great Lakes destination were generally connected to good roads which allowed driving to a larger city with scheduled air service. I have more than once been present at Glasgow MT when their EAS predecessor, Big Sky arrived, with an empty metroliner, the F/O went into the station with paperwork, returned, presumably with different paperwork, and they departed, for the next stop, again, empty. No doubt there will be someone to take their place, and the EAS subsidy will live on, but I see no reason to lament the demise of the operator with the industry wide worst terms of employment, which existed solely to collect an unnecessary government subsidy.

Hotel Tango
1st Apr 2018, 00:00
Sorry I spoke!

Jet Jockey A4
1st Apr 2018, 00:07
Bear in mind that Great Lakes was the kind of operator who removed all but 9 seats from a 19 seat airplane, for no other reason than so they could operate scheduled service under part 135 instread of part 121, and thus hire 250 hour pilots at their (lowest in the industry) poverty wages instead of increasing their pay scale to attract 1500 hour pilots. Great Lakes was the lowest of the bottom feeders, and went to great lengths to maintain that position.

Good riddance!

bloom
1st Apr 2018, 02:13
They will be back with 9 seat CRJ200'S

yellowcontrails
1st Apr 2018, 06:16
Great Lakes used to be dubbed as "Great Mistakes" by many who flew there. They were beyond terrible. And in the late 90's when major airlines were hiring like gangbusters, they operated a scheme where every captain upgrade trainee would fail the first checkride before they are eventually passed. This was by design to taint the trainee's record and created a roadblock when it came time for them to apply to the major airlines. This was how they retained pilots.

Glad I never worked there.

ironbutt57
1st Apr 2018, 12:47
bottom feeder airlines.....19 seats is still 135..their karma has arrived

TheWestCoast
1st Apr 2018, 14:17
Is anyone able to prove my theory that they designed their logo in Microsoft Word?

yellowcontrails
1st Apr 2018, 14:40
Is anyone able to prove my theory that they designed their logo in Microsoft Word?

The "Great Lakes" written in italics? Probably right. :ok::ok:

RickNRoll
2nd Apr 2018, 04:14
Great Lakes has previously said it was pulling out of several regional airports because of problems retaining pilots.
The company cited new federal rules that require co-pilots to log 1,500 flight hours before they can work for commercial airlines, up from 250 hours.
The new Federal Aviation Administration rules, which took effect in August, and airline industry staffing shortages caused by the retirements of longtime pilots have made staffing for regional airlines very difficult, especially over the past six months, said Jim Higgins, an associate professor of aviation at the University of North Dakota.
“Right now, there’s clearly not enough pilots who are willing to go and work at regional airlines,” he said.




Seems to confirm the scuttelbut here. :)


https://www.denverpost.com/2014/03/21/great-lakes-airlines-leaves-north-dakota-due-to-pilot-shortage/

A Squared
2nd Apr 2018, 05:06
bottom feeder airlines.....19 seats is still 135..their karma has arrived

Not for scheduled passenger service. I think you are correct for charters.

EDLB
2nd Apr 2018, 05:54
So how do you bridge the gap from 0 to 1500h today. CFI in a 172 for two years+ ?

yellowcontrails
2nd Apr 2018, 06:04
So how do you bridge the gap from 0 to 1500h today. CFI in a 172 for two years+ ?

If you are lucky!!!!

Sailvi767
2nd Apr 2018, 12:01
So how do you bridge the gap from 0 to 1500h today. CFI in a 172 for two years+ ?

It used to take 2000 to 3000 hours and 250 hours of multi time to get on with a regional. You build the time as people always have in the past. You instruct, fly part 91/135, cargo ect... I can suggest if you find instructing for two years to much of a hassle perhaps the career is not for you.
Nothing has changed other than the pay is much better once you reach a regional.

misd-agin
2nd Apr 2018, 12:47
Great Lakes used to be dubbed as "Great Mistakes" by many who flew there. They were beyond terrible. And in the late 90's when major airlines were hiring like gangbusters, they operated a scheme where every captain upgrade trainee would fail the first checkride before they are eventually passed. This was by design to taint the trainee's record and created a roadblock when it came time for them to apply to the major airlines. This was how they retained pilots.

Glad I never worked there.

Great Lakes pilot recently talked about training being tough but they had no busts as did others. Late 1990ís. So there was a standard that allowed people to pass.

A Squared
2nd Apr 2018, 20:03
It used to take 2000 to 3000 hours and 250 hours of multi time to get on with a regional. You build the time as people always have in the past. You instruct, fly part 91/135, cargo ect...

Yep, wasn't that long ago that it took a lot more than 1500 hours to get that first 121 job. I guess that the recent years of folks getting hired at a regional with 600-700 hours has established a new "normal" in many minds, but from a longer term perspective, getting 1500 hours before a 121 job is nothing.