Passengers in Cargo Hold?

[AmericanFlyer]

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/travel/news/2018/03/29/qantas-airways-wants-put-people-its-cargo-hold/33386055/

[Heathrow Harry]

10 across in 787 and 17 hour flights already... what's the difference???

[rog747]

PSA sat pax in the lower deck lounge of their Tristars in 1973 - it was cleared for pax there and had a under belly fairing fitted aft of the nose wheel in case of NG collapse etc

had a handy forward lower deck air stair too (court Line had a rear air stair fitted in aft hold that swung out for door 3R egress)

PSA only took delivery of only 2 of 5 built with lower deck lounges and LTU took the others i think - don't think LTU sat pax down there but they did use the lower deck lounge for a while?

[rog747]

er april fools but a day early here coz we are in UK and 12 hours behind lol

Durr almost fell for it LOL

[DaveReidUK]

PSA sat pax in the lower deck lounge of their Tristars in 1973 - it was cleared for pax there and had a under belly fairing fitted aft of the nose wheel in case of NG collapse etc

had a handy forward lower deck air stair too (court Line had a rear air stair fitted in aft hold that swung out for door 3R egress)

PSA only took delivery of only 2 of 5 built with lower deck lounges and LTU took the others i think - don't think LTU sat pax down there but they did use the lower deck lounge for a while?

http://www.psa-history.org/site/assets/files/3950/l10-lng.jpg

AFAIK, all 5 of PSA'a TriStars had the lower lounge, including the three that subsequently went to LTU.

[rog747]

yes Dave correct all 5 were built with lower deck lounges and airstairs - nice advert!

some or all ended their days with Worldways canada

was one lost in the LTU hangar fire at DUS?

[Heathrow Harry]

er april fools but a day early here coz we are in UK and 12 hours behind lol

Durr almost fell for it LOL


Its slill not April 1st in Oztralia - it's currently 19:00 there on the 31st....

just another attempt to drag teh world's attention away from the ball tampering affair IMHO :sad::sad::sad:

[DaveReidUK]

was one lost in the LTU hangar fire at DUS?

Yes, D-AERI (1114), originally for PSA as N10115 though they never actually took delivery.

[rog747]

Ta Dave and HH

who would have thought a huge wide body in those days was practically self handling at remote airports
LTU and Court Line's first orders AA+AB plus D-AERA had the rear airstair fitted and cargo handler bulk loading conveyor belts at all 3 hold doors

and the 5 PSA build a/c had the forward air stair fitted
(3 unsold new ones went to LTU, 1 lost in the DUS fire as Dave confirms)

I read that PSA could sell 18 seats in the lower deck lounge area

[CloudHound]

BAC 1-11 Bus Stop Jet anyone?

Except BEA didn't want the integral front steps and so their fleet flew around with a lumps of concrete instead:ugh:

[Joe_K]

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/cargo-class-qantas-ceo-reveals-out-there-options-for-super-long-haul-flights-20180327-p4z6l2.html

Putting this into context: Quantas is exploring it's options with ultra long-range flights. And: “The challenge for Airbus and Boeing is to do it with full passenger load and full freight load,” Mr Joyce said

So basically they're asking: is there something we can do with this space if we're unable to fill it with cargo. Not more pax, since that would be more weight, but the "do you have an area where people can walk? Do you have berths like on a train?" mentioned in the article doesn't sound that crazy. Maybe offer yoga classes to calm down the pax?

[Kerosene Kraut]

Lufthansa in their first A340-600 configuration had moved economy lavatories, eco main galley and FA crew rest to the lower deck to install more seats in the main deck. It didn't really work out. Pax oxygen, waiting lines and more. They moved back some stuff upstairs.

[DaveReidUK]

I suppose you could argue that by spending the 20+ hours SYD-LHR in the belly, without any windows, you wouldn't have to worry about whether it was night or day at any given time. :O

[BlankBox]

...good place for the F & J schmuks to hang out...:ok:

[ZFT]

...good place for the F & J schmuks to hang out...:ok:

..and why is that?

[dixi188]

Didn't BOAC put a Pub in the lower fwd hold of their first few B747s?

[czarnajama]

This brings back a great memory. Around 1983 I was flying in a Qantas 747 from Sydney to Honolulu, at night, and while walking around got into conversation with a steward. Much to my surprise, he offered me to take a look below. I got into an elevator (sort of a dumb waiter) and went down, into a quite large galley storage area. There I was, SLF all alone in the cargo hold area of a 747 over the Pacific!

[Ken Borough]

Not as silly as it sounds. As alluded above, Qantas' early 747s were fitted with what was called a Lower Lobe Galley, complete with a lift from the main deck to the galley underneath.

For cabin crew rest on what were then long-range sectors (BKK/LHR, BKK/FRA and,I think, AKL/LAX and vv), B747-300 aircraft were fitted with a fully furnished and equipped container on the lower deck. Access was via a man-hole and ladder in one of the galleys. The container was fitted with quite a few bunks that allowed complete horizontal rest and maybe even dancing. It was acceptable to both the regulator and cabin crew unions.

With imaginative thinking anything is possible especially if freight is limited due to payload restrictions. Bear in mind that a pallet of freight could equal as much as 45 pax, depending on the notional weight of the pax and baggage.

[Heathrow Harry]

This brings back a great memory. Around 1983 I was flying in a Qantas 747 from Sydney to Honolulu, at night, and while walking around got into conversation with a steward. Much to my surprise, he offered me to take a look below. I got into an elevator (sort of a dumb waiter) and went down, into a quite large galley storage area. There I was, SLF all alone in the cargo hold area of a 747 over the Pacific!

and they only let you out in 1999................

[RatherBeFlying]

Boeing did it first.

https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/7203hjpg

There were even pull down bunks:ok:

[Dannyboy39]

Isn't this already happening with crew rest areas?

[ATC Watcher]

got into conversation with a steward. Much to my surprise, he offered me to take a look below.
Some of us would be very careful in doing that:E

[Peter47]

I've thought about this for some time. My idea would be to put around a dozen first class suites, galleys & some toilets in the forward galley - if you look at seat maps they take up a lot of space. You will probably still need to a serving point for inflight snacks, economy class toilets & a disabled loo on the main deck. Would it be safe for dozen or so pax to remain on the lower deck through the flight or would safety dictate they they would have to return to the main deck for t/o & landing?

[Starbear]

PSA sat pax in the lower deck lounge of their Tristars in 1973 - it was cleared for pax there and had a under belly fairing fitted aft of the nose wheel in case of NG collapse etc

had a handy forward lower deck air stair too (court Line had a rear air stair fitted in aft hold that swung out for door 3R egress)

PSA only took delivery of only 2 of 5 built with lower deck lounges and LTU took the others i think - don't think LTU sat pax down there but they did use the lower deck lounge for a while?
Watching the Court Line L1011 airstair unfold was indeed a sight to behold, like a monstrous octopus unleashing itself ready for attack. Truly a tribute to great engineering design. If you have ever been quietly impressed at how engineers synchronise complex landing gear retraction and extension with sequential doors opening and closing then this thing would blow your mind.

p.s. in my very old and fading memory I recall it was in the front hold but will defer to your superior knowledge (memory).

[BlankBox]

p.s. in my very old and fading memory I recall it was in the front hold but will defer to your superior knowledge (memory).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTI-z1RAEU


...watch the snake unfold...watch the happy stewies...watch how much frikken leg room there was... :{

[Starbear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTI-z1RAEU


...watch the snake unfold...watch the happy stewies...watch how much frikken leg room there was... :{
Thank you for that BlankBox, very interesting indeed. Firstly for confirming the location of the stairs and secondly for confirming my brain is indeed completely screwed as I recall a very much more complex system than that shown which was "relatively" simple.

However my interest is now fully piqued as I wonder if indeed that was actually a Court Line plane throughout the video, the cabin crew uniforms were not familiar (although I am aware that often other crews were utilised in early days of new types). Indeed I had the privilege of flying on the very first L1011 to visit Europe in Eastern Airlines colours, I think, on its sales trip with Dan Houghton himself on board and all the cabin crew were in various airline uniforms.Great inflight party and chat with flight finishing with an autoland back at Luton.

So its got me wondering if there were different options on airstair types on offer. I recall that Court Line didn't keep theirs very long (stairs I mean) perhaps due to weight or complexity and ensuing problems.) They also bought a Beverley and parked it at Luton, with the intent of moving an RB211 engine around if needed but don't think it ever flew.

[4EvahLearning]

treadmills!!!! stop dvt. at least it gives pax somewhere to walk even if it's on the spot. :) and these days with VR headsets it could be quite pleasant.

[Dairyground]

I have a recollection from the distant past of reading about an in-flight report from (I think) a DC10 about a jammed elevator. The consternation was somewhat lessened when it transpired that the report concerned the lift between hold and main deck galleys.


I believe that there was also a case where a member of cabin crew as trapped in such an elevator.

[dixi188]

IIRC It was on a Delta Tristar inbound to Gatwick that a Cabin crew member got trapped in a galley elevator and was prounced dead on arrival.
Sad day.

[DaveReidUK]

IIRC It was on a Delta Tristar inbound to Gatwick that a Cabin crew member got trapped in a galley elevator and was prounced dead on arrival.

You may be thinking of the World Airways DC-10 F/A who was fatally injured in a galley elevator incident in September 1981 on a BWI-LGW flight.

The probable cause was determined to be a damaged interlock switch which should have prevented the elevator from moving with the door open.

[dixi188]

Yes, I think the World incident was the one. I was with BCAL at the time but not on shift.

[tonytales]

The two PSA L-1011 with the lower deck seating in what would be the fwd bag hold did indeed have an armored skin up front in the event of a belly landing. When Worldways of Canada bought them they were brought to Eastern Air Lines Contract Maintenance where we removed the lower deck seating. In order to lighten things we also took close to 2000-lbs of belly armor off. That was quite a penalty for seating downstairs.
The L-1011 galley "lifts" were initially very troublesome proving again the old axiom, "Don't buy the A Model of anything!" In the event of both lifts being jammed down, you could go out through their ceiling to the main deck. If both were jammed up however the lower galley occupants were trapped. Pressure sensors on their top prevented them from coming up if anything was on top of them. Never saw the DC-10 system so can't comment.

[2Planks]

Returning to the topic (jolly interesting diversion though!) the most comfortable bed I have had crossing the Atlantic was a hammock in the back of a C130 (and that includes being more comfortable than BA First) so if there is a quick and easy egress route I would be more than happy to travel in the dark.

[NWA SLF]

I was going to say the Stratocruiser had a great lounge below the main deck but cargo and fuel have become too important today. As for passengers in a hole, there is nothing to prevent windows in that structure. Like the Hindenberg with passengers able to view the ground below.

[tonytales]

Well actually windows in the lower hold are a problem. Because the aircraft skin curves away from the seats in the lower hold, the windows on the PSA aircraft were in tunnels well away from the seated passenger and really didn't give you much view.

[tdracer]

The VC-25 747s (i.e. the current Air Force One aircraft) have stairs down to the cargo deck for ready access in flight (it's been nearly 30 years, but IIRC there were two - one in the front and one aft of the center wing box). There is also a fancy retracting stairway that permits SLF to climb up to the lower deck then take the stairway to the main and upper decks.
Among other things there was chilled storage on the lower deck for the galley (the VC-25 aircraft have a full kitchen - not the 'heat and eat' capabilities of most airliner galleys), as well as access to the EE bay.
However I don't believe the lower deck had any seating or was approved to be occupied during takeoff/landing.

[galaxy flyer]

That L-1011 airstair is a piece Lockheed engineering!

GF

[Airbubba]

Three decades ago the A310 had cockpit access to the avionics compartment below. You could even open the hatch below that and climb down to the ramp on a small ladder. Sometimes mechanics would exit the aircraft that way at the gate before pushback.

Some overwater jumpseat riders on a full plane would take a walkaround O2 bottle and go down for a nap. If you needed some cushions, you could borrow some soft luggage from the forward hold which was accessible through a door.

One colleague inbound to FRA dozed off in the lower compartment. The relief pilot went down and woke him at top of descent but he fell asleep again. He woke up once more when the forward cargo door was opened on arrival and climbed down the loader to the ramp. A German airport security officer saw him exit and the fallout was predictable.

There have been many cases of baggage handlers falling asleep in the hold and taking an unscheduled trip to another city or even another country.

For example: https://youtu.be/fUOMYeQ812c

[Standby Scum]

Whilst the Tristar gets several mentions here, it’s interesting to point out that in the UK nobody failed the 1179 type written exam on the Tristar as RR had financial problems and needed to sell engines. Nobody passed the 1179 exam until the 3rd attempt on the 727 whilst Dan Air and Boing tried top get it onto the British register as it was in competition with the Trident. Lears had to be put onto the Irish register as the ARB said no to curved windscreens as it was in competition with the 125. Good old British politics and aviation.

[ExSp33db1rd]

https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/7203hjpg

I remember it well, but I recall that the pull down bunks were in the main cabin, First Class, not the lower lounge ?