BA Crewmember Arrested in SIN - #MeToo?

[Airbubba]

An unfortunate sign of the times?

BREAKING NEWS: British Airways crew member arrested on suspicion of raping an air stewardess while off duty after flight from London to Singapore

-BA crew member arrested on suspicion of raping air stewardess in Singapore

-BA employee remains in custody following sexual assault allegation by woman

-It is believed alleged incident took place while crew were off duty following flight from London

-Rape in Singapore can carry a maximum prison sentence of up to 10 years as well as 12 lashes of a cane

BA crew member arrested on suspicion of raping air stewardess | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5536413/BA-crew-member-arrested-suspicion-raping-air-stewardess.html#ixzz5Aa0wc3qD)

[Airbubba]

From The Straits Times:

SINGAPORE - British Airways is cooperating with police investigations into a case of outrage of modesty involving its cabin crew.

The police told The Straits Times on Saturday (March 24) that they were alerted to a case of outrage of modesty in Cuscaden Road at 8.31pm on March 18.

A 46-year-old man was arrested in relation to the case and police investigations are ongoing. ST understands that the female victim is 29 years old, and both of them are British employees with British Airways.

British Airways crew member arrested for outrage of modesty case in Singapore - The Straits Times (http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/british-airways-crew-member-arrested-for-outrage-of-modesty-case-in-singapore)

[FLCH]

Crickets crickets......

[A Squared]

So how is this a "sign of the times" ? Rape has been occurring forever. While I haven't jumped to any conclusions about anything, I don't see any details which seem not to add up, (as there is in the Alaska FO's lawsuit) Seems to me it was reported immediately to the police, and they're conducting an investigation. I'm not saying any of this automatically makes the allegations true, but I don't see any justification for attempting to dismiss it as "a sign of the times" or as a result of the #metoo campaign, as your thread title seems to be suggesting.

[triploss]

So how is this a "sign of the times" ? Rape has been occurring forever. While I haven't jumped to any conclusions about anything, I don't see any details which seem not to add up, (as there is in the Alaska FO's lawsuit) Seems to me it was reported immediately to the police, and they're conducting an investigation. I'm not saying any of this automatically makes the allegations true, but I don't see any justification for attempting to dismiss it as "a sign of the times" or as a result of the #metoo campaign, as your thread title seems to be suggesting.

Damned if you do report things to the police.

Damned if you don't report things to the police.

[PaxBritannica]

Why on earth was #MeToo included in the title?

Do some Ppruners feel that every rape allegation is an act of female malice?

Do some Ppruners feel that sexual assault is just standard rough-and-tumble between the sexes, and therefore women are currently taking the p*ss?

[krismiler]

Ethiopian jailed for molesting hotel worker, Courts & Crime News & Top Stories - The Straits Times (http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/ethiopian-jailed-for-molesting-hotel-worker)

The above link gives an idea of how Singapore deals with cases like this. Foreigners get no special treatment. If found guilty he'd better start preparing for a few years in a relatively harsh prison system.

[parabellum]

and therefore women are currently taking the p*ss? Among the high flying starlets from Hollywood whose profession is 'make believe'? Yes, quite probably. The casting couch has been there, rightly or wrongly, for over one hundred years, why should it suddenly hit the headlines now?

[Nemrytter]

Do some Ppruners feel that every rape allegation is an act of female malice?Because they are the sky gods, unhappy with technology and unable to keep up with modern life. The 21st century has bypassed them.

[4EvahLearning]

Among the high flying starlets from Hollywood whose profession is 'make believe'? Yes, quite probably. The casting couch has been there, rightly or wrongly, for over one hundred years, why should it suddenly hit the headlines now?

I'm flabbergasted. Maybe because now we have better communication thanks to the digital age, women's voices can be heard and who is interested in a voice from the hoi polloi? Maybe because it's all a conspiracy to detract from the horrors of the wars elsewhere in the world or the drug epidemic. Does it matter why?

Maybe it's time to stop it. Nothing changes without dialogue. Rape is serious. Let's not detract from that in this thread.

Rapists come from all walks of life and there may be a few who just happen to be pilots as well. Don't be afraid to open the conversation. Have the dialogue. Support the victims, persecute the perpetrators.

(I am not saying this pilot is guilty as I do not know the facts but there appears to be a problem in the industry if rapes are being reported - if no rapes are occurring there is a problem somewhere - why are these people reporting them)

I wonder what the PPRuner's responses would be if it was a male reporting being raped by a female captain. Whose side would they come down on?

[nickp]

Have I missed something, where does it say that a pilot was involved?

[JCviggen]

The casting couch has been there, rightly or wrongly, for over one hundred years, why should it suddenly hit the headlines now?

There are many things that were quietly accepted until they weren't. That is called progress. People can play a game no matter how unfair it is but if an opportunity arises to draw attention and change the rules then why wouldn't they.

[DaveReidUK]

Have I missed something, where does it say that a pilot was involved?

It doesn't, in fact the DM article makes it clear that both individuals were Mixed Fleet i.e. cabin crew.

[ladies and gentlemen]

Have I missed something, where does it say that a pilot was involved?

well said!

[A Squared]

No it doesn't. It says 'believed to be'.

True, but that does not support the claim that it was definately a pilot. All indications we have before us, however tentative they may be, indicate that it was *not* a pilot.

[core_dump]

Why on earth was #MeToo included in the title?

Since we can't be 20 years old again, we have to simply act like it once in a while. I guess.

[Freehills]

Yes, it is an unfortunate sign of the times that some people still think sexual assault is OK, and commit it. Luckily, most countries have laws and processes in place to disabuse them of this notion.

[maggot]

Gees
Be thankful that a timely investigation is possible and the (alleged?) victim can get the support she needs
The Singaporeans have a fair conviction rate...

[Airbubba]

Be thankful that a timely investigation is possible and the (alleged?) victim can get the support she needs

Here's a case from two decades ago where BA apparently gave their full support to the accused as well:

A British Airways purser was charged with raping a stewardess after a lengthy drinking session in which they consumed champagne suspected of being stolen from their aircraft, a tribunal was told yesterday.

Yesterday Mr Henry, 49, of West Chiltington, West Sussex, claimed he had been unfairly dismissed by BA after the rape charges against him were dropped in January last year. He had worked for British Airways for 32 years before the incident at the McLean Hilton Hotel, Washington, in April 1998.

Julian Henry was arrested but the rape charges were later dropped and in January 1999 he was given a six-month suspended jail sentence and a $1,000 fine after pleading "no contest" to a charge of assault and battery.

The company is introducing compulsory drink and drug tests and has suspended 14 staff after one pilot was found to have reported for work having allegedly drunk the equivalent of 10 pints of beer and having had just three hours' sleep.

Caroline Gregory, BA general manager of personnel services, told the tribunal the airline had given full support to Mr Henry when he was arrested, and had also arranged a loan to cover his legal costs.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ba-steward-says-he-was-fired-over-false-rape-claim-634492.html

[Blind Squirrel]

I wonder what the PPRuner's responses would be if it was a male reporting being raped by a female captain. Whose side would they come down on?

That's an easy one.

1. If the perpetrator was attractive, did not cause physical injury, did not have transmissible diseases, and did not become pregnant and seek child-support payments as a result of the episode, they would say that the victim was lucky and should stop complaining.

2. If any of the foregoing conditions did not apply, they would say that the victim was (i) a wimp for not fighting the assailant off; (ii) foolish to get himself into that situation in the first place; or (iii) both.

3. If the perpetrator was male, they would default directly to no. 2 above.

[crewmeal]

I wonder what the PPRuner's responses would be if it was a male reporting being raped by a female captain. Whose side would they come down on?

I had a similar thing happen to me by a senior cabin crew member on a 3 week trip many moons ago. When she came on to me at a room party, I told her she was 'barking up the wrong tree' she made my life hell for the rest of the trip.

[JumboJet1999]

I had a similar thing happen to me by a senior cabin crew member on a 3 week trip many moons ago. When she came on to me at a room party, I told her she was 'barking up the wrong tree' she made my life hell for the rest of the trip.

So did you report her behaviour? And if not, why not?

[crewmeal]

So did you report her behaviour? And if not, why not?

No because back in the 70's life was different. What went on in room parties stayed in room parties. However she did have a nickname of the 'man eater' When we had rosters on pieces of paper we used to regularly check names and go through reputations of crew members we knew.

[A Squared]

No because back in the 70's life was different. What went on in room parties stayed in room parties. However she did have a nickname of the 'man eater' When we had rosters on pieces of paper we used to regularly check names and go through reputations of crew members we knew.

Would it really have hurt you to close your eyes and take one for the team?

[Blind Squirrel]

Would it really have hurt you to close your eyes and take one for the team?

Didn't take long to prove me right. Unfortunately.

[cargosales]

Call me a dinosaur but isn't it one thing when two adults consensually consume (possibly large amounts of) alcohol together and end up in bed. As long as it was consensual and no harm was done then it's down to them as adults..

and quite another when someone tries to force themselves on another person, when the other person isn't willing, doesn't want that, isn't interested etc.

In the first example, sorry no sympathy if one of them later decides it was 'a mistake' and tries to hammer the other in court or do them for 'rape'. In the second, jail time with 'cell mate Bubba' is the least the perp deserves.

I've sometimes been out drinking, err maybe heavily, with friends who happened to be female. But that wasn't an excuse to assault them, more a reason to ensure they got home safely before I went back to mine.

CS

[4468]

cargosales

You are way out of touch with the current law, regarding one’s ability to consent.

I would have added the word ‘sadly’. However that would make me a dinosaur, like you!:rolleyes:

[JammedStab]

The problem is....proof. If someone is innocent until PROVEN guilty(which is a pillar of our justice system) it is incredibly difficult in He said/she said situation.

For example, do you believe Clarence Thomas or Anita Hill. OK, perhaps more well known is...Do you believe Trump or his accusers. OK, so you believe the accusers.....then why did so many of those who believe the accusers side with Bill Clinton as so many of the Me Too type supporters did?

Probably, they are all guilty but should they go to jail based on no evidence but a story as could have happened in this case?

Rolling Stone and journalist found guilty over false Virginia rape story - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37879151)

There is reason for innocent until proven guilty.

[cargosales]

cargosales

You are way out of touch with the current law, regarding one’s ability to consent.

I would have added the word ‘sadly’. However that would make me a dinosaur, like you!:rolleyes:

Err, actually I'm not... But that doesn't alter my view about consent....

[4468]

cargosales

We are pretty much in this situation now:
if a woman can prove that she was very drunk at the time of the alleged rape then, regardless of whether she did in fact consent to sex at the time, the simple fact that she was very drunk means that she was raped.

So unless a man has a signed statement from a woman explicitly consenting to sex with him, and an independent witness verifying that she was not too drunk to give that consent, he risks the possibility of a rape allegation the morning after the night before.

Unlike any other offence, where the onus is on the prosecution to prove that the accused is guilty of a crime, this puts the responsibility squarely on the accused to prove that he is innocent.

The woman, on the other hand, can “prove” she was raped merely by producing a urine sample showing that she was drunk as a skunk at the time and therefore incapable of giving consent.
Good luck to you mate!

As I said. You’re way out of touch!

[Freehills]

What's wrong with that? Some one drugged up to their eyeballs to the point of insensibility, whether with roofies, chloroform or alcohol, is incapable to give consent.

Equally, if you have sex with a 14 year old boy or girl, even if they give consent, the law says that they incapable to give consent and (in the US at least) charges you with statutory rape.

PS - don't worry, probably not your fault you have these views, you can probably blame your parents for not bringing you up as a gentleman. Certainly my father made it very clear that 'taking advantage' of a woman's incapicitation was not acceptable behaviour.

[Thomas coupling]

Unbelievable. Totally effing unbelievable that the OP should suggest this is someone with a (modern) chip on their shoulder going around accusing someone of rape and being out of order for doing so???

IF there is a scintilla of evidence to prove this person was raped - how would you react then?

So if one assumes there is a justice system in our society, how does the complaint come to the fore IF the plaintiff keeps quiet?

What IF the victim WAS raped? What if the victim WAS your daughter.................do they qualify as #MeToo candidates then?


AirBubba - it seems you started another thread on another rape story.

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/606566-alaska-airlines-fo-alleges-rape-captain-msp-layover.html

Do you have a problem with this subject perhaps? Have you been maligned at some stage in the past? Having difficulties with the opposite sex? Or do you simply have it in for women when it comes to this subject matter?

[anchorhold]

This will always be a problematic area both within airlines and universities.

The interpretation in English law over ability to consent is a nightmare. For example if a bride gets drunk on her wedding night, can she consumate the marriage or would that be rape.

I feel in law, it is impossible to judge if the person was 'capable' to consent, other than on the balance of probabilities, which only applies to civil law.

Having said that, I feel that there are some people who think there is a presumption of consent if someone invites you back to their room or share a bed. I think we need a little more education here for cabin crew and pilot training regarding consent.

[Airbubba]

Here's a piece from The Economist suggesting that the recent rash of crew involved airline misbehavior news stories is due in part to increased reporting and cameras on cellphones.

From the Gulliver blog:

NEARLY every day new stories hit the headlines about misbehaving flyers who get drunk on flights, turn violent or try to bring weapons or unusual animals on board. But it is not just the behaviour of passengers that now appears on a downward slide, but that of crew as well.

Last week videos were posted to Weibo, a Chinese social-media platform, that appeared to show an orgy of at least six people in a hotel room. Reports followed that the participants were flight attendants for China Eastern Airlines, a Chinese flag-carrier, or possibly its subsidiary Shanghai Airlines. In a statement apparently issued by the company, it denied that its flight attendants were involved and suggested that the creators of the video were seeking to damage its reputation. According to Newsweek, an American magazine, the Chinese authorities then removed most coverage of the incident published by local media outlets from the internet.

If the details of this episode remain hazy, a flood of similar reports of crew misbehaviour in the last few days seem to establish a pattern. On March 24th a very drunk pilot had to be removed from the cockpit of a TAP Air Portugal aircraft, with passengers then forced to wait another two days for a replacement flight. On March 23rd news reports said that a British Airways (BA) crew member had been arrested on suspicion of raping one of his colleagues after an off-duty drinks party during a layover in Singapore.

These incidents follow a long line of public-relations disasters for the airlines concerned. Last week Graham McTavish, a Scottish actor, tweeted that he had heard United Airlines flight attendants joking about killing dogs in the overhead compartment, shortly after a French bulldog died after it was placed in the overhead bin on another United flight. (The airline says it is investigating Mr McTavish’s allegation.) In September BA launched an investigation after video showed a woman wearing its cabin-crew uniform ranting about Nigerians and the size of their private parts in a manner widely seen as racist and sexist. Three months later, the same airline fired three of its cabin crew for wild drunken behaviour during a stopover in Nairobi. Paddle Your Own Kanoo, an aviation-news site, has documented several other recent episodes of alleged transgressions by BA staff during drink-filled parties, involving killing fish, running across a hotel lobby naked and urinating in public.

What is going on here? Have flight attendants really gone wild? In fact, there is probably a much simpler explanation. Travellers have got into the habit of whipping out their smartphones to shoot video whenever something noteworthy starts to occur, or to tweet about it. Or, in the case of the rant about Nigerians recorded by the woman in the BA uniform, when something like this emerges, it spreads like wildfire on social media. None of these things happened routinely ten years ago.

There are around 40m commercial flights around the world every year, around twice the number of a decade ago. It is hardly a surprise that the crew on a handful of these will do something problematic. Pilots and flight attendants have always liked a drink off-duty. What is new is that the world learns about these incidents—and quickly.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2018/03/cabin-crew-fever

[Herod]

Pilots and flight attendants have always liked a drink off-duty.

But, one assumes, not journalists from The Economist. Or doctors, teachers, or......

[PaxBritannica]

But, one assumes, not journalists from The Economist. Or doctors, teachers, or......

Doctors, teachers and even Economist journalists spend much less time in hotels a long way from home, out of view of their partners, with little to do but party. Flight crew do it routinely. I've always imagined that was one of the main attractions of the job.

[parabellum]

During a downturn in aviation back in the early eighties I worked for two years in London, in what is known as The City. Rest assured Pax Britannica, the travelling businessman is every bit as partial to a drink as aviators are, usually starting in First or Business class, then carrying on with their or someone else's company credit card into the late or early hours in the most dubious of places at times, and generally speaking, are more likely to be found with a visitor to their bedroom than aviators are, often all with the collusion of their fellow business man that they have gone to meet. A hotel used by journalists to cover any major event was once described to me, by a journo, as like a colony of young rabbits!


Lets us not start on business seminars, (sometimes for doctors or teachers), that would take another page, at least! ;)