FO removed from BA Flight

[mutt]

Newspaper reports this morning of a BA FO getting removed from a flight by police as some of the cabin crew had called 999 stating that they thought he was drunk.

'Drunk' British Airways pilot hauled from Gatwick flight | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5290933/Drunk-British-Airways-pilot-hauled-Gatwick-flight.html)

[B2N2]

Because the Captain covered his buddy and the lead FA ratted.
Nice Crew synergy.
If I were BA I’d have both replaced on that flight and investigated.
As of the time of the article the FO is still in lockup which means he blew over the limit.

[ZeroFuelMass]

bye bye license

[rog747]

surely all the crew FD and CC should have been stood down and a new standby crew used

hardly the right synergy for a long haul overnight operation - ah but it was MRU so maybe a few days on the beach was attractive?

[schweizer2]

bye bye license

Sad to see someone lose it but if you aren't responsible enough to show up sober, you shouldn't have one issued.
I have a gut feeling the BA roster isn't issued on a daily basis and this person knew he was rostered to fly or be on standby.

[HZ123]

There are not the crew numbers to remove them from the service!

[Heathrow Harry]

"Because the Captain covered his buddy and the lead FA ratted.
Nice Crew synergy."

you seem to be suggesting the Captain was right and the lead FA was wrong ?

[Airbubba]

This drunk pilot scenario happens all too frequently in my opinion, another one in yesterday's news:

Dubai flight delayed as pilot was drunk

DECCAN CHRONICLE. | GURURAJ A PANIYADI

Published Jan 19, 2018, 5:26 am ISTUpdated Jan 19, 2018, 5:26 am IST

Mangaluru: The first officer scheduled to fly the Mangaluru- Dubai flight of a private airlines was denied permission after he tested positive for alcohol. The flight, carrying 180 passengers ,was scheduled to leave Mangaluru International Airport at 12.15 am on Wednesday. However, it could leave only at 5 am.

As per rules, a pilot has to undergo strict medical checkup. If the pilot is found positive of alcohol then he is not allowed to fly the plane and the airline makes alternate arrangements. Turkey based Corendon Airlines First Officer Sebahat Ulku Erk was scheduled to operate the SpiceJet flight SG-059 (wet lease aircraft) from M’luru International Airport to Dubai. “The first officer failed to meet the stringent SpiceJet safety standards and tested positive during pre-flight medical check for alcohol," SpiceJet officials said. "He was not permitted to operate the flight. He has been suspended and sent back to his country," they added.

According to sources after Sebahat was denied permission to operate the flight, the airlines had to schedule another pilot. The alternate pilot arrived, the flight could not takeoff from the airport due to NOTAM (during which no flight can land or take off). NOTAM was in force from 12.15 am to 4.14 am and so was rescheduled.

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/190118/dubai-flight-delayed-as-pilot-was-drunk.html

Under Indian DCGA rules if you show up drunk for work as a pilot your license is suspended for 90 days.

[ironbutt57]

Because the Captain covered his buddy and the lead FA ratted.
Nice Crew synergy.
If I were BA I’d have both replaced on that flight and investigated.
As of the time of the article the FO is still in lockup which means he blew over the limit.

Accusation supported by? Possibly he hadn’t come in as close contact as he was the relief pilot, but leveling an accusation is warrantless unless you know this to be a fact

[His dudeness]

Because the Captain covered his buddy and the lead FA ratted.
Nice Crew synergy."

you seem to be suggesting the Captain was right and the lead FA was wrong ???

Don´t know wether he suggested this or not, you seem to suggest that the suggestion "the captain covered his buddy" is a given. Do you KNOW that ?

[Bigpants]

Best to wait and see what the real facts are. Remember the Virgin Pilot on a strict Atkins diet that was breathalyzed because he was suffering from a side effect of it and smelt of alcohol?

[crewmeal]

Quote from The BA Source

British Airways Boeing 777-236ER G-YMMD operated yesterday’s weather delayed BA2069/BA2068 London Gatwick – Mauritius rotation this afternoon.

Love it!

[kiwibrit]

BBC version of events (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-42759124).

[ironbutt57]

Best to wait and see what the real facts are. Remember the Virgin Pilot on a strict Atkins diet that was breathalyzed because he was suffering from a side effect of it and smelt of alcohol?

indeed true, the ketones emitted by the breath can fool one, we see that also when some of our guys are fasting during Ramadan

[sharksandwich]

You are suggesting pilots fly while indulging in odd blood sugar practices?
I doubt it!

[Voodoo78]

Let's not forget that the FO would have been arrested on suspicion of performing an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit.

Unless he's failed to provide a specimen, he's most likely gone to blood/urine analysis which will take a week or so to get the results.

As we have no idea at the moment if he was over the prescribed limit or not, let's not cast any aspersions until the results are back and let's see if he's charged or not.

[garpal gumnut]

As Flann O'Brian said, a pint of plain is your only man. It would be interesting to see his blood alcohol level. It may have been a medical condition. Let us not jump to judgement.

[student88]

Because the Captain covered his buddy and the lead FA ratted.
Nice Crew synergy.
If I were BA I’d have both replaced on that flight and investigated.
As of the time of the article the FO is still in lockup which means he blew over the limit.

Outrageous accusation. Do you have any evidence?

[ironbutt57]

You are suggesting pilots fly while indulging in odd blood sugar practices?
I doubt it!

the Adkins, or any other very low carb diets cause ketones to be emitted through the urine and breath as well...try looking it up before "you doubt it"

https://www.webmd.com/oral-health/features/low-carb-diets-can-cause-bad-breath#1

there, looked it up for you

[ManaAdaSystem]

You are suggesting pilots fly while indulging in odd blood sugar practices?
I doubt it!

Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East.

[sharksandwich]

Should be treated like drinking and driving, or any other self-induced impairment, then.

[GLAEDI]

At most large U.K. airports there’s three police units and a Border Force presence for different law enforcement activities. The Police in general have three roles.

1) Firearm units, there as 1st point of call for counterterrorism where an actual event is being undertaken.
2) Uniform Police who are there for general police duties and would normally deal with instances of this type.
3) Border Police Command CTC Intel Officers, the one’s used to be called SB wear plain clothes and are there for Intel gathering duties in the main
4) Border Force who mainly deal with the Immigration Acts & Customs & Excise legislation but have been given powers to detain on behalf the police for other offences.

When a call would have been made then it would have been likely based on what duties the Officers were doing that the quickest response would be the armed unit. This maybe due geography of the airport or that uniform were busy dealing with something else. It’s unfortunate that in the U.K. because a cop is carrying a firearm it automatically means that the situation meant the FO needed to be pulled from cabin ala Daily Mail sensationalism. It could have been the uniform cops or plain clothes cops (who probably left their kit in the office as it doesn’t sit well under there suits) who arrived at the plane to arrest the FO under suspicion of circs were different. I expect now that a charge has been raised and he’s been remanded, that a blood test and/or breath test has been done. The initial test at the aircraft as in driving is guide to allow Officers in England & Wales to arrest on suspicion (although no test is needed if the officers don’t have a machine it’s suspicion, so smell, slurred speech or anything to suggest he was unfit to fly would mean he could be detained). The tests at the station will be the evidence for the charge and court proceedings. Until the magistrate has given his decision the FO is innocent under the law, unfortunately not by the media.

[RAT 5]

Assuming a couple of comments are correct a few questions arise. It is alleged that the cabin crew were concerned and alerted the authorities. That would suggest that they by-passed the captain. It was alleged that the captain was covering for a colleague pilot. Surely, especially in BA, the cabin crew would first approach the captain. If he refused to take action they could make their displeasure known and refuse to fly. The captain could then strongly advise the pilot to call in sick and get off the a/c PDQ. In that case the police would never have entered the picture. Also, as this was a long-haul flight all crew members would have met for a pre-flight briefing and introductions. Surely any suspicions could have been voiced then and a SBY called out. It is quite a while before they arrived at a/c, when this matter erupted. It seems an odd course of events.

[ExXB]

Never EVER grass up your mates.

Think all ex mil flight crew will be well schooled in this time-honoured principle.

If I was capt and my relief FO was drunk, I'd keep him in his seat/bunk for the flight, and resolve the issue the old-fashioned way (out of sight of CCTV) on arrival at the hotel.

And if you were then incapacitated? There are two (or more) guys in the pointy end for a reason.

[Lancelot de boyles]

While in no way suggesting that being under the influence should be condoned, I do wonder at a company culture and individual motives where any crew might choose to call 999, and make a very public event, instead of opting for a less sensational course. Is this some need for personal attention?

The circumstances are not entirely clear or certain from these pages, for sure. However, more often than I care to count, during ground courses I have seen evidence of crew wanting to get an advantage over someone else in their future 'team'.
In a particular ground course for a new cabin crew intake, I was amazed to see a considerable amount of training time was given over to discipline, reporting and whistleblowing, and a particular emphasis (and corresponding interest) made on how to properly report crew members, especially pilots.

Is this where the industry is going?

[Dogma]

The lunatics on this thread need more than a breathalyser :-)

There isn’t any evidence of an industry wide problem. This could be Ketosis, particularly as the other Pilots didn’t say... Go home you are sick

Peer intervention

[surely not]

What a pity there isn't a law against being drunk in charge of a keyboard, I think that would seriously affect many journos, and a significant number of contributors on here as well!!

[Sailvi767]

Never EVER grass up your mates.

Think all ex mil flight crew will be well schooled in this time-honoured principle.

If I was capt and my relief FO was drunk, I'd keep him in his seat/bunk for the flight, and resolve the issue the old-fashioned way (out of sight of CCTV) on arrival at the hotel.

In the US at least you would face the loss of your certificate for knowingly allowing a required crew member to work intoxicated. Covering for a crew member in the manner suggested merely insures he will fly again intoxicated. The proper way to handle it would be to have the pilot exit the aircraft and be replaced. From there he would be required to enter a alcohol treatment program. ALPA has a very successful program with a near 100% return to work rate.

[clareprop]

Never EVER grass up your mates.
Indeed. The proper action is 'go home..you are very ill'. Then call them in ill. Then afterwards, go round and read the riot act to them.

[4468]

KeyPilot

Doing what you suggest, puts your own liberty and livelihood at risk. You are committing a criminal offence. You will deserve everything you get, should your method be discovered.

As a point of information. It used to be the case at LGW that pilots and crew might not meet each other until on board the jet?

Many potential sub plots could be involved in this story. Reporting so late in the evening, probably rules out the usual reasons?

Many BA pilots are now active on Social Media.

[2dPilot]

You are suggesting pilots fly while indulging in odd blood sugar practices?
I doubt it!

Why not? we have police officers on blue light pursuits while fasting, ambulance drivers on 999 response while fasting.... pilots hopefully only have to save lives less than once in a career, police and ambulance, several times a day maybe. And no, I don't agree with it - any person fasting in an emergency response role should take holiday, or assigned desk duties - and that can go for pilots too. /Rant Over

[Heathrow Harry]

" Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East."

and there is no need for it

There are specific exemptions in the Koran & Hadith including travel, anything related to the safety & welfare of others, warfare, menstruation, severe illness, pregnancy, and breastfeeding. ] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan#cite_note-dieticiannour-45) Those who are unable to fast still must make up the days missed late

[swh]

What is industry wide is scheduling Crew so they are so tired/fatigued that their performance is worse than a person who has had 6 beers.

[Cows getting bigger]

Just a thought - if the media is to be believed, is it really necessary for the police to be so heavy handed?

[fullforward]

Time to understand what "irony" means...

[fullforward]

"Because the Captain covered his buddy and the lead FA ratted.
Nice Crew synergy."

you seem to be suggesting the Captain was right and the lead FA was wrong ?

Time to understand what "irony" means...

[flash8]

Surely, especially in BA, the cabin crew would first approach the captain. If he refused to take action they could make their displeasure known and refuse to fly.

Senior long-haul CC in BA are a law upon themselves.

[4468]

KeyPilot
Luckily there remains some scope for decision-making based on personal abilities and experiences (despite the relentless march of our industry in the opposite direction!)
By all means feel free to make whatever clever decisions you wish. Just be sure it’s only your liberty and livelihood you’re gambling with. I certainly wouldn’t allow you to involve me in the criminal act you suggested!

The press reports suggested it was armed police who arrested this individual. An earlier post here mentions that may just simply be, because those officers were the ones best able to respond quickest? It might very well be that armed officers have no option other than to restrain those they detain?

I suspect most would be more concerned about liberty and career, than cuffs!

[Heathrow Harry]

The fact the police have kept him in suggests he has failed a test ................

From the BBC

A 49-year-old man from west London has been arrested and remains in police custody, Sussex Police said. The man, from Harmondsworth, West Drayton, has been arrested on suspicion of performing an aviation function when the level of alcohol was over the prescribed limit.

A spokesman for British Airways told the BBC: "We are taking this matter extremely seriously. "We are sorry for the delay to our customers. The aircraft remained at the gate until an alternative third pilot joined the flight crew." The Boeing 777 was due to leave Gatwick's South Terminal at 20:20 GMT but was delayed until just before 23:00.ndal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42739556)

[Heathrow Harry]

"Luckily there remains some scope for decision-making based on personal abilities and experiences "

These days no-one is going to allow anyone near the cockpit if there is the slightest doubt that they are intoxicated (well at least outside the Russian Federation). If there is a medical reason why they appear over the limit then it may still impair their performance. If they are not impaired (for whatever reason) they have the chance to explain/ be tested but no-one is put at risk.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

It wasn't the CC that reported him according to a mate at BA. An engineer apparently

[Herod]

Secondary marijuana can have an effect too. We were checking out of the hotel in Amsterdam, and the F.O. said he didn't feel well. He looked to be out of it. We went back to the corridor where his allocated room had been, and the smell was quite pervasive. Someone in another room had obviously been smoking a lot of the stuff. The F.O. called in sick. Luckily there was a standby available and the delay wasn't too long. The company read the riot act to the hotel.

[J.O.]

Facts are missing and it could indeed be ketosis that created the suspicion.

Regarding some of the comments on here, I am a big believer in giving a pilot a chance to get well through a comprehensive treatment program like the one ALPA administers. However, the notion of quietly sending a colleague off the aircraft because they’re under the influence is dangerous, IMO. Anyone who’d take it all the way to getting on board is demonstrating a wreckless disregard for safety and deserves the embarrassment of an arrest. Maybe, just maybe, that act would be the rock bottom wake up call they need to get help.

[champair79]

Exactly. Call in sick and explain you have an issue. The company will provide the support for you to get better.

Report unfit to fly and you deserve to get the book thrown at you. This ‘engineer’ that supposedly reported him - could’ve been the dispatcher?

[rog747]

why didn't the CC/engineer/red cap whoever called 999 speak to the skipper first in private ?

[Four Turbo]

Reminds me of another occasion I was privy to, but thankfully not involved in. Crew assemble in hotel lobby, where it becomes apparent FO is pushing his alcoholic luck. Captain instructs him to report sick with food poisoning immediately and a replacement is fairly quickly found. All is well until the next day when hotel manager phones company to say his hotel does not poison guests, and that the lobby CCTV recording is available if requested!

[Fly26]

I think we all understand the world works a lot differently these days compared with 20 plus years ago. I was told something that sticks in my mind, “we’re only as safe as our last flight”

At briefing this should have been discovered, it must have been noticeable. what action taken there is with the Cpt/crew on the day....

If the crew are worried they have every right to speak up...we
Must all learn to keep our discipline and standards as no one else will look after our careers.

[ExSimGuy]

The fact the police have kept him in suggests he has failed a test

From the BBC

A 49-year-old man from west London has been arrested and remains in police custody, Sussex Police said. The man, from Harmondsworth, West Drayton, has been arrested on suspicion of performing an aviation function when the level of alcohol was over the prescribed limit.

To my understanding is that could have been that his breath smelled or a number of other reasons for suspecting he may have been drinking.

All very well to discuss what our hypothetical course of action would be, but if there is no evidence yet that the FO in question really was over the limit, best to wait for the proof to emerge.

[Voodoo78]

Only a constable in uniform can request a breath/urine/blood sample.


I think we’ll find that this is not as sensational as the media is making it to be.

[Pace]

Saw a programme on the superefficient Japanese rail system
When the drivers clock into work they go through a security gate
Along that stretch is a device which they blow into taking less than a minute to check they are alcohol free for duty

I am surprised a similar check isn’t made at airports
A lot is saving pilots from themselves and hence their careers

[tescoapp]

Some of us blow every time we report for duty be it at base or down route.

Personally as a Captain I like it because it removes all the nonsense out of having to have a opinion and everyone knows the rules.

Blow more than zero you are off to the doctor for a blood check and if your over the EASA limit you are sacked. Under it but still registering your off the flight anyway but not sacked.

End of.

[MurphyWasRight]

One other (pure) speculation on the unknown facts is that this may not have been the first time.

If prior incident(s) had been resolved by "reported to captain quitely sent home sick" could be that this time whomever reported this had lost faith/patience.

Anyone with knowledge of the realities of severe alcoholism knows that there is a fine line between compassion and enabling that will be exploited by the alcoholic.

[Vasco dePilot]

Saw a programme on the superefficient Japanese rail system
When the drivers clock into work they go through a security gate
Along that stretch is a device which they blow into taking less than a minute to check they are alcohol free for duty

I am surprised a similar check isn’t made at airports
A lot is saving pilots from themselves and hence their careers

In India, all crew members are checked for alcohol when they check in. This is a legal requirement specified by the Indian DGCA

[blind pew]

In the 70s or early 80s a 747 rolled onto its back after take off in ANC iirc..captain was that drunk that he had to be helped up the steps. Ground crew and Fo weren't allowed to question the captain in those days..company made breath tests mandatory.

[oceancrosser]

In India, all crew members are checked for alcohol when they check in. This is a legal requirement specified by the Indian DGCA

And we have all heard how well things work in India...

[Its Maui]

I know of a crew reported for smelling of alcohol seconds after both of them had used alcohol-based sterile wipes to wipe down the headsets during cockpit prep...

[Loose rivets]

A subject close to my heart.

Over half a lifetime ago I repeatedly reported a captain for alcohol issues and generally bizarre behaviour. Promises were made by the senior training staff in the independent airline I worked for but nothing was done. People listened, and then did nothing.

What was all the more bewildering was that I was some sort of training FO, one of only two that was allowed to fly with new captains after their line checks.

This very sick man would consume a double-double of whisky while taxiing in, wobbling near to the edge of the concrete and refusing to let me take over. He bullied his way through his days with a bluster that was, I thought, only seen in films.

When I finally said enough was enough, I was shouted at and told to get a QC to represent me in high court if I insisted upon repeating anything like that. I walked out of the best job I'd ever had using my leave as notice period.


By the strangest of chances, many years later I was introduced to the sick captain's old boss in what was to become BA, in a garden party in my home town in Essex. When I asked if he knew the person involved he looked taken-aback and asked how I knew him. When I told him, he said, 'you cannot tell me that man flew again!!!' The conversation went into some detail. It seems some sort of agreement was reached and the 'sick' aircrew left to work for his son, outside of aviation. At some point he decided to fly again, on a licence he still held.

Nice as his old boss had seemed, I sit here thinking just how different my life would have been if that sick soul's licence had been revoked. I also wonder why I'd buckled under the strain. It was not in my nature, but it had been months and months of insanity and the same time of promises that things would be put right.

The greatest regret of my life is buckling at that moment with my boss.

No one cared the subject reeked of alcohol after a flight. Okay it seems because it was after and not before. No one knew enough perhaps about brain damage and alcohol-induced psychosis - and the word psychosis was used in that later conversation. They know now, but this was then.

Now, I'd have called the CAA, or the police, or both, but things were so different then - it's hard to imagine just how different - and somehow I'd just lost the steam I needed to do battle. Perhaps it was months of things like starting the engines with the passengers on the ventral stairs - inches from the engines - and no brakes on, and no start-up clearance. Or taking off with . . . I'll leave that for now. Just a last few straws of many, many dozens of smaller items I'd filed. Many of the 'smaller' incidents would be international news now.

Things are better now. Hugely so, but alcohol is still addictive, and is still a relaxant after a trying duty period. All too nice to feel that chemistry flow in.

It's vital flights are not operated with intoxicated crew. Of course it is, but there are other dangers, dangers more subtle and far-reaching. Richard Feynman gave up drinking 'Because I wanted to think.' He wasn't mistaken - even back then it was known what alcohol could do to the brain.

Under the glass of a coffee table in the waiting area of the Prade St CAA medical centre were some photos of pilot's brain slices. Old fashioned X rays, but very, very clear in their message. The shrunken black edges to the contours of the cortex were horrific, so much so, that anyone seeing them should have been profoundly affected. Yet, as we all know, the message is there, yet we mostly don't choose to see it.

[Sailvi767]

Indeed. The proper action is 'go home..you are very ill'. Then call them in ill. Then afterwards, go round and read the riot act to them.

If you follow this course of action he absolutely will fly again impaired and more than likely lose his job. If you want to do the right thing for him and his family he has to get treatment.

[BB97]

A couple of points:

A number of years ago a pilot with a UK airline had a similar situation where a cabin crew member thought she could smell alcohol on his breath. On that occasion it was well handled and he was politely asked to leave the flight deck for a test. He was completely sober and in fact a tee totaller. Turned out he was on a low or no carb diet which produces a condition known as ketosis. It simply means you have either been having no carbs or too much alcohol. A breathalyser resolved the situation but that pilot was subjected to a lot of abuse until his name was cleared.

In the case of this BA pilot if he is still in lock up then probably he failed the test, but the point is that taking him off by armed Police could have been a gross injustice.

Second point:

The captain on the BA flight can also be in trouble if it is determined that he was willing to get airborne knowing his F/O was unfit to fly. Sorry but the days of covering for crew members with regard to alcohol and drugs are over. No place on the flight deck for this sort of behaviour.

[sharksandwich]

" Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East."

and there is no need for it

There are specific exemptions in the Koran & Hadith including travel, anything related to the safety & welfare of others, warfare, menstruation, severe illness, pregnancy, and breastfeeding. ] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan#cite_note-dieticiannour-45) Those who are unable to fast still must make up the days missed late

I am shocked that fasting, and the consequent effect on blood sugar levels leading to impoverished judgement , is common amongst flight crew. Is superstitious irrational belief more important than safety?

[WingNut60]

Of equal concern is the disruption to available hours of sleep. While fasting, if that's what you want to do, then any eating needs to occur outside of daylight hours and is accompanied by a strict regime of prayer. So, depending on geographic location and time of year, this can mean getting up as early as 3 am for a morning meal (break fast, get it) and not being able to go to bed until 10 or 11 at night.

This inevitably has a major impact on restful sleep patterns. Combine it with flying duties and a bit of ketone on the breath then becomes a minor problem. Though not for the person sitting next to you.

[CargoOne]

is it normal these days for BA to have FO who is 49 years old? Assuming he started his carrier in early 20s he must be approacing 18-20k hours under his belt?

[Toruk Macto]

Anyone got any ideas on how to get help to a person before it blows up like this ? You got someone you know who has reputation for being a bit of a binge drinker , few run ins with the law , history of failed relationships , family concerns but he is a good bloke so he gets looked after . Any approach sees his friends and family circle the wagons ! Intervention ? Or it has to blow up before anything can be done ?

[cactusbusdrvr]

Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East.

In the USA as well. A good friend of mine is Muslim and will not eat or drink during the day during Ramadan. He has flown like this for over 20 years. Even working out in the gym, he stays faithful. Pretty impressive.

[megan]

Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle EastBut is it wise, given the symptoms of low blood sugar? The religion doesn't seem to demand it given the edicts I've read, quite the reverse.

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-71960.html

[Carbon Bootprint]

In the 70s or early 80s a 747 rolled onto its back after take off in ANC iirc..captain was that drunk that he had to be helped up the steps. Ground crew and Fo weren't allowed to question the captain in those days..company made breath tests mandatory.I lived in ANC for a few years. I never heard of this incident. Can you cite a source for this info? Thanks.

[MATELO]

It was a Dc8.

JAL Cargo Flight 8054 was a charter flight on January 13, 1977, from Grant County, Washington to Tokyo with a stopover in Anchorage. The flight crashed during the initial climb phase, shortly after takeoff from Anchorage due to pilot intoxication.

[Wannabedriver]

I urge people not to read too much into media regards police response! From my perspective (10 years) there's likely to have been a lot going on around that time of day for any police service and no doubt Gatwick's ARV's were closest/closest available unit. Between 7-9 (on a late) is a cracking break time for a uniform patrol cop.


I'd be shocked if the officers went on board with firearms deployed, no doubt rifles were stowed in vehicle safe and they had Glocks on their legs/tasers on vests.


Handcuffs - officer's personal responsibility; resulting in a "use of force" form at the end of the shift. Depends how FO was transported to custody, if he sat in the back of the ARV then I'd say handcuffs were a 100% due to him being an unknown entity (be it unstable through alcohol or medically and the fact he likely has no criminal record to speak of).


From a speculative POV (and I have no idea how they board this type of flight at Gatwick). At my airfield a 777 is boarded via air bridge through door 2nd door just forward of the wing - if this is the case - I'm surprised no video has emerged of the arrest/intervention...unless the Police were more discreet than people think.

[wiggy]

is it normal these days for BA to have FO who is 49 years old? Assuming he started his carrier in early 20s he must be approacing 18-20k hours under his belt?

Not that unusual...all sorts of reasons why, but the usual reason is since BA, like many other airlines, uses a seniority based promotion system if you join as a DEP your flying hours accrued in a previous company/military don’t accelerate your move to the left hand seat, you join the bottom of the umpteen years queue for a chance of an upgrade.

[msbbarratt]

Saw a programme on the superefficient Japanese rail system
When the drivers clock into work they go through a security gate
Along that stretch is a device which they blow into taking less than a minute to check they are alcohol free for duty

I am surprised a similar check isn’t made at airports
A lot is saving pilots from themselves and hence their careers

My Japanese wife say's it's the same for Japanese airline pilots. It's all part of everyone from the ground up to the company chairman taking pride in being seen to do their jobs properly.

She was surprised when I said that there's no similar system here. Maybe there should be.

[hunterboy]

I don’t think there would be any complaints at a ground up system of alcohol and drugs checking before work from the cleaner through to pilots, management and continuing up to judges, lawmakers, etc. I think what annoys many is seeing the workers being treated like potential terrorists and criminals every time they go to work while others get merry in a subsidized company or parliamentary bar and then go on to make some life changing votes or decisions.

[Heathrow Harry]

I think there's a bit of a difference..............

[blimey]

CargoOne

is it normal these days for BA to have FO who is 49 years old? Assuming he started his carrier in early 20s he must be approacing 18-20k hours under his belt?

Ex mil, ex some other carrier, ex different career.

So that's that one put to bed. Move along now, and like a lot of the posters here, try not to assume.

*see wiggy's post above for fuller explanation.

[ADFUS]

I am shocked that fasting, and the consequent effect on blood sugar levels leading to impoverished judgement , is common amongst flight crew. Is superstitious irrational belief more important than safety?


What's shocking is how little the general population, let along pilots whose livelihoods depend on their health, understand about their endocrine system.

You do not need to eat to "keep up your blood sugar levels". Your body can do that on its own, unless you are diabetic.

If you are suffering from lethargy after not eating for a little while then it is an indictment of your poor diet which relies on mostly refined carbs and sugar.

It is little surprise that the western population is so obese, when was the last time you had a look at what is in your food.

[Heathrow Harry]

no news this morning - guess he'll be up in court first thing tomorrow when we'll hear what charges (if any) he faces.

[PC767]

why didn't the CC/engineer/red cap whoever called 999 speak to the skipper first in private ?

I am told via the BA grapevine that the captain was approached in the first instance. This is hearsay. The chain of events following is purely speculative but, if the police were called by other than the captain assumptions can be made that the captain was persuaded to continue to MRU.

If the statement that a 49 year old male remains in custody is also correct, it is highly probable that suspicion of an offence taking place was the correct action. The reason a suspect would remain in custody on suspicion of any alcohol related offence would be that they remain too intoxicated to be interviewed about the circumstances. Detainees have three options to prove innocence or guilt in alcohol related offences. Blood sample, urine sample or breath sample from the custody suite intoximetre. The intoximetre is instant and admissible evidence. Two readings are taken and the lower one is used for evidential purposes. Suspects who need to be questioned will often be given a few hours in custody and the breath tests repeated until they are deemed within limits to be interviewed.

[Mr Mac]

With regards to testing, we have in my own industry (construction), started carrying out random testing (both Blue and White collar) in the UK and the findings are appalling in my view. However the issue is not alcohol but drugs. On one project I am aware of they had a 60% failure rate ! Another rail infrastructure company carrying out similar tests on employees out of circa 3000 test produced about 1700 failure,s, ONLY one of which was for alcohol ! For my generation alcohol was probably, and maybe still is the drug of choice mostly, but that has now very much changed in my industry, not sure about aviation.

I hope the officer involved is treated fairly, and receives treatment / help if required, and is not just hung out to dry, no pun intended.

[Vendee]

On a recent coach trip in the UK, the engine cut out due to overheating in slow London traffic. The driver had to blow into a built in breathalyser before it would allow him to start the engine. I don't know how widespread this is.

[parabellum]

City workers do not drink as much as those in aviation and it's not a point for amusement.

1. My how times must have changed. During a downturn in aviation, 1983(ish) spent over two years in the city, 'heart starters' in the Marine Club at 11.30 were the norm. Drank far more than ever did flying, much entertaining on the company account was also the norm.

2. The only police I ever see at airports these days are heavily armed.

3. Would be interesting to know if the CC side-stepped the usual chain of command and reported this incident to the police without talking to the senior CC and then the captain first. Outcome should involve FO removed and company informed, no doubt, but appropriate action from the company should remove the need to involve the police and the criminal courts, in my humble opinion.

[Heathrow Harry]

Mr Mac

I hope we all agree on that.

[EIFFS]

Random checks are rare, in 20+ years on the line, I’ve only had 2 both in Scandinavia, even though you know you are sober it’s still a little stressful for the whole crew.

Personally I would not get on an aircraft if I suspected a member of the crew were intoxicated, the problem is that unless they reek of alcohol or are clearly drunk in terms of their behaviour it’s not an easy call.

Hopefully I’m never put in that situation, but I suspect we are only seeing the tip of the ice berg here

[T250]

3. Would be interesting to know if the CC side-stepped the usual chain of command and reported this incident to the police without talking to the senior CC and then the captain first. Outcome should involve FO removed and company informed, no doubt, but appropriate action from the company should remove the need to involve the police and the criminal courts, in my humble opinion.


What year are you living in?

I and I am sure 99.9% of the flying public would certainly hope that any flight crew caught being over the limit are in fact, dealt with accordingly and prosecuted for what is a criminal offence here in the UK!

How you can believe that this should have simply been dealt with internally by the airline, its staff and its internal procedures is scandalous.

Protecting the public and the passengers that fly with a particular airline is paramount, not your concerns for the 'usual chain of command'.

[Cornish Jack]

Replies, so far, seem to indicate two viewpoints - 'whistleblowers are poison' and 'whistleblowers save lives'. The first view is almost standard in British society, particularly business. The second requires strength of character out of all proportion to the good it can do.
From (personal) experience - 18 months with the same alcoholic captain, in a VERY steep cockpit 'gradient' sharpens ones reflexes greatly!!
From (personal) experience - recovering one's predecessor's personal effects from the crash site where he was killed by a 'known' irresponsible 'cowboy', makes the Boss's assessment "that we were ALL to blame, because we knew ... and did nothing!" a simple truism.
"Never grass up your mates" may well be a survival essential in criminal circles - it has NO place in any sort of RESPONSIBLE working environment.

[Airbanda]

" Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East."

and there is no need for it

There are specific exemptions in the Koran & Hadith including travel, anything related to the safety & welfare of others, warfare, menstruation, severe illness, pregnancy, and breastfeeding. ] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan#cite_note-dieticiannour-45) Those who are unable to fast still must make up the days missed late

Don't you love it when white Brits reckon to know more about Islam than its practitioners.

As others have observed in a healthy person the body regulates blood sugar by itself. Occasionally in vigorous exercise you'll hit the wall or as cyclists say 'bonk' but even then a sort rest is enough to let the metabolism catch up.

People's individual metabolism, together with sleep patterns disturbed by shifts are far greater risks to safety than a Ramadan faster who's eaten well before the fast starts at sunrise. Personally, I've not eaten since 19:00 last night. Now 12:46 and I'll probably grab something in next hour but I'm perfectly alert and focussed. Others, including both my adult offspring, wouldn't be.

[B2N2]

Outrageous accusation. Do you have any evidence?
( feathers ruffled)
Do you have any to the contrary?
If he was indeed already in the cockpit he also participated in a few briefing where somebody must have noticed but ignored.
If cabin crew gets physically close enough to notice then for sure your fellow flight deck members.
You’re not kept separated because you’re relief Crew.
The cabin crew did absolutely the right thing but it should have been the captain as well...he’s ( or she) is the PIC.
Was hè informed? If not why not? If so why didn’t he/she act on it?
Thats what I meant by synergy.

[B2N2]

Cornish Jack

Couldn’t agree more hence my statement why it was NOT the PIC of the flight that “rang the bell”.

[Radgirl]

Sorry Airbanda, but you are wrong. Fasting does not inevitably result in a low blood sugar, but it certainly can. In the last decade I have seen two surgeons in the NHS 'collapse' whilst operating during Ramadan. Whether the skills of others were diminished is harder to determine. Imans have repeatedly told both doctors and patients they should not fast.

Personally I would not fly if the pilot was fasting, if only i could find out......

[costalpilot]

so, I'm shuffling dispatch papers at the gate adjacent to my Msp to Bos gate which is filled with a packed DC 10 passenger load and a nondescript gent pops up in front of me and says, I think you've been drinking.

So, what would YOU do?

a. Call the company,and head to the clinic for a breath test.

b. Tell him to take a hike, and press on.

I did b. and have regretted it for WAY too long. ( I hadnt had a drink in years btw, but I did look a bit slovenly for the role).

just saying, you gotta protect your back.

[Pilotless]

Do we know as fact that the offending pilot was reported by people other than his 2 pilots colleagues. Did the offending pilot use the washroom between finishing briefing and passing through security?

[3Greens]

Sorry Airbanda, but you are wrong. Fasting does not inevitably result in a low blood sugar, but it certainly can. In the last decade I have seen two surgeons in the NHS 'collapse' whilst operating during Ramadan. Whether the skills of others were diminished is harder to determine. Imans have repeatedly told both doctors and patients they should not fast.

Personally I would not fly if the pilot was fasting, if only i could find out......
I do the 5/2 diet, and frequently only consume 500 ‘kcal on a fast day. Wouldn’t you fly on my 777? How would you know?

[Basil]

Agreed. I lived and worked in the ME for years. Our company discouraged fasting but to little avail.
Anyway, this thread has nothing to do with fasting.

p.s. I wouldn't want to be flown by 3Greens. I've gone short of calories when on exercise in the mil. It makes you tired.

[Pilotless]

It is, perhaps, unsurprising on such a Forum such as this where pilots discuss amongst pilots, that there should be an obvious lack of consideration on the event-matrix that underpins this event and the ramifications, thereof.

As I write, the names of the 3 pilots in this event are not in the public domain and my thoughts are based (as are all others expressed by others in this thread), entirely on the allegations cited in the media being true including and not restricted to the allegation that the 'drunk' pilot was indeed drunk in the normal meaning of the word.

I would suggest that there is a bombproof construct that shows the 2 other pilots covered up for the 'drunk' pilot which would automatically make them accessories to what the man in the street would regard as an extremely serious, life-threatening, crime. Flowing from that, BA should not have allowed ANY of the pilots (not just the 'drunk' pilot) continue on their rostered flight.

For the construct to work, the following 3 criteria must hold true (1) neither of the other 2 pilots who continued to operate to Mauritius can have a sense of smell any worse than the person who reported the 'drunk' pilot (this can be tested and there are potential medical implications) (2) the reporting of the 'drunk' pilot would have to have been done by someone other than the 2 other pilots (3) the 'drunk' pilot could not have attended the washroom between the end of pre-flight briefing and passing through security on the way to the aircraft (CCTV) which is the only place he could have consumed alcohol after briefing and before entering the aircraft.

If all the criteria stated above are satisfied, I would not be sleeping too well I were either of the other 2 pilots or the senior-most BA manager dealing nor, indeed, if I were BA itself. Alternatively, if the criteria are not met, then everyone should breathe a bit easier.

I am sure that a thorough investigation into the above will be conducted by Sussex Police and that is surely what we all want in the name of passenger air safety.

[Basil]

May I humbly and politely ask that some professional pilots posting here review their contributions and consider whether they should really be in the public domain?
They may be easily misunderstood.

[parabellum]

1. Basil - agree 100%

2. T250 - Something tells me you are not a professional pilot. Once a pilot has been grounded for drinking experience shows that most won't return to flying, their career, as a pilot, is over, with all the upheaval and turmoil that causes. A criminal conviction is just rubbing salt into a gaping wound and does nothing, by comparison with a loss of livelihood, to deter or punish. Compulsory treatment for addiction would probably be more appropriate.

[T250]

So working for BA or an airline as a pilot makes you above the law? I don't think so, sunshine.

Where a criminal offence is proven (innocent until proven guilty) then prosecution of a criminal act is to follow, whether the airline likes it or not.

I see your location indicates that you are not from the UK. Maybe you should study our Air Navigation Order: Part 10: Chapter 1 'Prohibited Behaviour'. :hmm:

Sussex Police will conduct their own investigation, leading to criminal charges if necessary, with all due respect BA will not get a look in if the guy is remanded!

[aterpster]

It would be in the U.S. since he did not operate the airplane.

Having said that, recall the NWA crew who did operate a flight, all three under the influence. I believe they got two or three years in federal prison.

[parabellum]

A rather silly assumption there T250, had the police not been immediately involved at LGW then the CAA would have had the option to prosecute and history tells us they most certainly would have. For all I know it was BA who called the police but if, as suggested, it was employees acting on their own initiative then I think the matter should have, as far as possible in the first instance, been handled internally but not, in any way, covered up, just different channels. Armed police, handcuffs, physically removed, splattered all over the media wasn't very 'innocent until proven guilty' to me, more like a terrorist apprehension. The outcome, if the FO was unfit through alcohol consumption, is inevitable, his career is all but over, regardless of any prosecution.


I see your location indicates that you are not from the UK. Maybe you should study our Air Navigation Order: Part 10: Chapter 1 'Prohibited Behaviour'. :hmm:
Born and bread in the UK, British ATPL plus several other countries too!;)
Obliged to retire in 2001 due to a stupid rule that enforced retirement at age 60.

[bluesideoops]

Interesting that many of the comments on here are based on 'war stories', anecdotal evidence and/or emotionally motivated opinion yet few raise points about the following: what do the SOPs/Ops Manual/Company manual state? - i.e. PROCEDURES, what about Human Factors? How about SMS and Just Culture? Then, of course, the regulations. Presumably, BA has a set of procedures based upon the regulations that takes into consideration the principles of HF/SMS principles for A) acceptable consumption of alcohol and B) dealing with those who don't respect (A) - if an individual knowingly and willing breaks the the 'bottle to throttle' rules and chances it, then they know the repercussions. The crew who suspect that a breach has occurred should follow the Company procedures and if that requires calling the Police then so be it (suspect BA rules don't require this and should be handled internally unless the pilot is being unruly). Long-gone is the day where you cover for your 'mates' etc. Given the rosters, there are ample opportunities to get sauced between periods when you are on-duty. If you are responsible enough to fly 400+ pax on a long-haul flight, you need to be responsible enough to follow the rules and accept the accountability for breaking them.

[Pearly White]

sad to say, according to recent studies alcohol causes irreparable damage to DNA which can ultimately lead to cancer, so it's increasingly looking like a poor lifestyle choice on a par with smoking.

Drinking alcohol can cause cancer by damaging DNA, finds study | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/alcohol-cancer-causing-drinking-dna-damage-health-study-university-of-cambridge-a8141066.html)

The problem with addiction to alcohol (which may not be the case in the example that led to this thread starting) which was told to me by a recovering alcoholic, is that one drink is too many, and a thousand is never enough. It's binary. You simply cannot drink if you want to participate in any kind of normal life.

Most people are lucky. They can have a drink or two and just stop when they need to. Addiction means you are calling V1 as you raise your first glass and there's no stopping at that point, you have to continue. Best not to start. The so-called "functional alcoholic" does not and cannot exist in any kind of professional public transportation role.

[Torquetalk]

Where a criminal offence is proven (innocent until proven guilty) then prosecution of a criminal act is to follow, whether the airline likes it or not.



Hold those horses oh mighty righter of wrongs. A person is CHARGED. A prosecution MAY follow. If the prosecution is successful, then the offence is proven and sentencing follows that. You got your horses and carts all mixed up mate.

[Derfred]

I simply can't believe this thread.

How many pilots under the influence of alcohol have been the cause of airline disasters?

I'm not condoning turning up to work under the influence, but most of the responses in this thread are trying to paint a picture that simply doesn't exist.

The 3 major contributors to airline disasters are:

1. Financial pressure on the Company causing corner-cutting in standards, maintenance etc

2. Pilot fatigue (18 hours awake equals 0.05% BAC... never read about that in the Newspapers)

3. Regulator oversight, or lack of, generally contributing to (1) and (2)

[Heathrow Harry]

Sussex Police statement this morning:-

A spokesman for Sussex Police said: “At about 8.25pm on Thursday (18 January), police received a report of a member of airline staff suspected to have been under the influence at Gatwick Airport. A 49-year-old man from Harmondsworth, West Drayton, Hillingdon, was arrested on suspicion of performing an aviation function when the level of alcohol was over the prescribed limit. He was taken into police custody and has now been released under investigation.”

[yotty]

Allegedly during the walk round the P3 drew attention to a possible defect and the engineer concerned noticed a suspicious smell on the breath of the pilot, the engineer communicated their concerns through supervision and Operations and Maintrol were informed, the Police and GAL Ops were called to the aircraft, There was no CC involvement.

[Basil]

And, interestingly, the legal blood alcohol limit for a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer is the same as for a road vehicle driver in England and Wales, that is, four times that permitted for crew.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Interesting that many of the comments on here are based on 'war stories', anecdotal evidence and/or emotionally motivated opinion yet few raise points about the following: what do the SOPs/Ops Manual/Company manual state?
Doesn't matter. You see a crime, you tell the police. The weird concept of "using internal procedures instead" is what enabled the Catholic church to cover up paedophile priests for decades, giving rise to who knows how many more victims.

[B2N2]

Allegedly during the walk round the P3 drew attention to a possible defect and the engineer concerned noticed a suspicious smell on the breath of the pilot, the engineer communicated their concerns through supervision and Operations and Maintrol were informed, the Police and GAL Ops were called to the aircraft, There was no CC involvement.

Do you have a reliable source for this?
As in a link you can share?
Or is this hearsay?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Doesn't matter. You see a crime, you tell the police. The weird concept of "using internal procedures instead" is what enabled the Catholic church to cover up paedophile priests for decades, giving rise to who knows how many more victims.

Silly argument. If you see a colleague under the influence, your first step is to have "a chat". It's not up to you if a "crime" has been committed.

[split system breaker]

Well in fairness, there has never, ever, in the the history of scheduled airline transport, been a victim of a drunk pilot. No one has died, no one has been hurt, a few people have been delayed, usually as the result of someone with a personal agenda.

The world (or at least the flying one), may be safer than you think, we work really hard to keep it that way.

[yotty]

And, interestingly, the legal blood alcohol limit for a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer is the same as for a road vehicle driver in England and Wales, that is, four times that permitted for crew.
Is that a BA or CAA limit Basil? The GAL limit for operation of flight deck systems is the same as a pilot. This group obviously includes LAMEs as well as and pilots.

[Basil]

Found it; goes on a bit but worth knowing:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/pdfs/ukpga_20030020_en.pdf

Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003

PART 5
AVIATION: ALCOHOL AND DRUGS

93 Prescribed limit
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when the proportion of
alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, or
(b) he carries out an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function at a
time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine
exceeds the prescribed limit.
(2) The prescribed limit of alcohol is (subject to subsection (3))—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (c. 20)
Part 5 — Aviation: Alcohol and Drugs
41
(3) In relation to the aviation function specified in section 94(1)(h) the prescribed
limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations amending subsection (2) or (3).
(5) Section 94 defines “aviation function” and “ancillary activity” for the purposes
of this Part.
94 Aviation functions
(1) For the purposes of this Part the following (and only the following) are aviation
functions—
(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,
(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight,
(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,
(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,
(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight,
(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise
training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to
monitor or record the gaining of experience,
(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under
or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student),
and
(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.

Interesting that it refers to 'during flight' . . . hmm.

From the ANO 2016:
Drunkenness in aircraft
242.—(1) A person must not enter any aircraft when drunk, or be drunk in any aircraft.

(2) A person must not, when acting as a member of the crew of any aircraft or being carried in any aircraft for the purpose of acting as a member of the crew, be under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to impair their capacity so to act.

And that's it.
Don't make it easy, do they?

[yotty]

Excellent post Basil, but if you work at LGW you are under GAL rules, as I posted earlier.

[sudden twang]

Big difference though. One is being a naughty boy in GALs eyes the other is an offence as laid down by act of parliament. There are BA rules that may have been infringed.
What does the Police statement “ released pending investigation “ mean?

[DaveReidUK]

What does the Police statement “ released pending investigation “ mean?

"Released under investigation", as it is normally referred to, means that the police have interviewed you under caution and then released you into indefinite limbo (possibly with some conditions as to who you can contact, etc) while they investigate the alleged offence at their own pace and eventually decide whether to charge you or take no further action.

[yotty]

Big difference though. One is being a naughty boy in GALs eyes the other is an offence as laid down by act of parliament. There are BA rules that may have been infringed.
What does the Police statement “ released pending investigation “ mean?
With regard to BA EG303 might apply. Regarding the Police statement your guess is as good as mine. ;)

[G-CPTN]

Well, the guy either blew over the limit or he didn't.
Mitigating circumstances for being over the limit are usually dealt with in court, though might be 'under discussion' before charges are brought.

[barry lloyd]

"Released under investigation", as it is normally referred to, means that the police have interviewed you under caution and then released you into indefinite limbo (possibly with some conditions as to who you can contact, etc) while they investigate the alleged offence at their own pace and eventually decide whether to charge you or take no further action.

Quite - which suggests that to me at least, that all is not what it seems. If he was 'banged to rights' as the expression goes, he would have appeared in court this morning charged with an offence, as a certain Mr Rooney did recently under similar circumstances

[roving]

A Pakistani pilot has been jailed for nine months in Britain for being drunk before he was due to fly a plane with 156 people on board.

https://news.sky.com/story/drunk-pia-pilot-irfan-faiz-jailed-in-britain-10427045

[kaikohe76]

Can I ask please Gentlemen & Ladies, of all who have posted comments regarding this particular thread, `how many of you are actively employed as Commercial Aircrew`?

[Sillert,V.I.]

Well, the guy either blew over the limit or he didn't.


I don't think the breathalyser results can be used in evidence at the lower aviation limit; a blood and/or urine sample will be taken and that is what will be used in Court, if it comes to that.

I suspect the police are waiting for the results of that test before deciding what course of action to take.

Follow this link (https://www.hampshire.police.uk/about-us/publications-and-documents/procedure-02515-drink-and-drugs-aviation/)to obtain a document detailing the procedure followed by the police in cases such as this. It's from a different police authority, but I'd expect all forces will have a similar procedure.

This is a document I'd suggest anyone carrying out an 'aviation-related function' should study; it makes for sobering reading.

[Heathrow Harry]

Can I ask please Gentlemen & Ladies, of all who have posted comments regarding this particular thread, `how many of you are actively employed as Commercial Aircrew`?


What pray does that have to do with the subject under discussion?

How does being "actively employed as Commercial Aircrew" make any difference to views and opinions on a possible (and I stress possible) case of being over the limit when in charge of an aircraft??

[A4]

Are people seriously saying that because he wasn’t P1/P2 for departure it’s not serious!? What about an incapacitation of either operating crew during climb out? What’s he going to say....sorry need another couple of hours to straighten up. Get real.

The facts will out eventually and if the said individual was over the limit I hope he gets the help he needs.....but he may well end up inside for a spell first.....and I suspect his career is finished. It’s sad whether it was a brazen/brainless/stress induced consumption of alcohol....as professionals we know the rules and if, for whatever reason, we are unable to maintain the discipline required we should seek help as early as possible.

A4

[BANANASBANANAS]

At outstations, my (Middle East Airline) rules are that we are on duty only 1:00 prior to departure. However, buried away in the OMA is a company requirement 'not to be under the influence of drug/alcohol at any time while in uniform.

Some of our outstation hotels are quite a way from the airport and it is not uncommon to get a wake up call 3:30 prior to dep for transport 2:30 prior to dep.

It wasn't very long ago that one of our crew was (allegedly) 'met' getting out of the hotel elevator prior to checking out (2:45 prior to dep), blew over the limit and lost their job. Not sure about the licence as, technically, not on duty.

Be careful out there.

[Deep and fast]

You can buy an electronic tester at halfords for £150 quid which is cheap insurance for either driving or going to work. They have a digital readout and in my view provide cheap insurance to those odd occasions when you may have a drink. Cant totally rely on these but certainly if it says your over, don't drive or report :8

[A4]

....even cheaper is don’t drink before a duty. If you require/need alcohol the night before an early report something is wrong - perhaps with your personal life or your discipline/attitude. Buying a (probably) questionably accurate breathalyser to check you’re “ok” should be setting off alarm bells. Bit of personal reflection may be?

We have a highly responsible job, remunerated accordingly. Is it worth risking that (and potentially the aircraft and its contents) for a drink? The rules are clear and known before we signed up - it comes with the territory.

As alluded to in an earlier post perhaps the greater threat in the future will be drugs not alcohol.

[MATELO]

Quite - which suggests that to me at least, that all is not what it seems. If he was 'banged to rights' as the expression goes, he would have appeared in court this morning charged with an offence, as a certain Mr Rooney did recently under similar circumstances

Mr Rooney was caught Drink Driving on the 1st September, his court date was 18th September. He was released on police bail early on 1st Sept.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/18/wayne-rooney-pleads-guilty-to-drink-driving.

[Sillert,V.I.]

Mr Rooney was caught Drink Driving on the 1st September, his court date was 18th September. He was released on police bail early on 1st Sept.

The difference is that, in motoring cases, the readings from the breathalyser used at the police station can be used as evidence (the right to a blood sample was removed on 10 April 2015), so the police will know straight away whether an offence has been committed.

In aviation cases where the lower limit applies, only a blood or urine sample can be used as evidence (the breathalyser is not approved for use as evidence at the lower limit), so until the results are back from the forensic laboratory the police cannot be certain that an offence has been committed. In a high profile case such as this, it would not surprise me if the police 'fast tracked' that process.

[JW411]

I can remember when the new UK regulations came in around 14 years ago, in very broad layman's terms, the limit for driving a car was/is about 2 pints of ordinary bitter (3.8% OG). The limit for flying an aeroplane was the equivalent of 1/2 of a pint of ordinary bitter. In other words, not a lot. Air Trafficers were also subject to the latter limit.

However, LAMEs (engineers) only had to meet the car driving limit. I could never quite understand that for engineers can also cause a modicum of aviation mayhem.

[B2N2]

Can I ask please Gentlemen & Ladies, of all who have posted comments regarding this particular thread, `how many of you are actively employed as Commercial Aircrew`?

I am.........

What pray does that have to do with the subject under discussion?

How does being "actively employed as Commercial Aircrew" make any difference to views and opinions on a possible (and I stress possible) case of being over the limit when in charge of an aircraft??

Because of the keyboard warriors that claim knowledge or spout nonsense as far as company SOP's.

[roving]

Another procedural difference highlighted by the case of Pakistani pilot, is that whilst driving over the prescribed limit is only tried in the Magistrates Court, in the case of pilots, it seems, the case can be remitted to the Crown Court either for trial or sentence.

The Crown Court has enhanced sentencing powers.

Perforce, that means it takes longer.

[roving]

I am.........
Because of the keyboard warriors that claim knowledge or spout nonsense as far as company SOP's.

As a retired English barrister, I have no idea about this particular airline's standard operating procedures, but I have a clear understanding of how the law applies in the circumstances predicated here.

But please do share with us how it works in the USA.

[flyerxyz]

Much sympathy for a fellow pilot.

This kind of story might make our industry look bad, but it should not - it's a reminder of how high standards are in aviation.
The UK blood alcohol limit for pilots (and cabin crew) is 20 milligrammes per 100ml. That's 1/4 of the driving limit.

Where else are the rules so strict?
I wonder what happens if a surgeon, government minister or senior business leader shows up smelling of drink?
I bet they're not handcuffed for all to read about in the news and I bet they don't get put in prison for 6 months and then fired.

[gengy22]

I am a long time lurker on pprune and would never dream about commenting about anything that I have no knowledge about. I am a train driver in the UK and we have a drug and alcohol policy which is based on the Transport and Works Act 1992. For alcohol we are allowed nothing in the 8 hours before signing on. From 24 hours before signing on until the 8 hour cutoff you are allowed to have 7 units of alcohol. A pint of 4% lager is 2.3 units. All medication including over the counter must be declared and if there is any doubt it has to be cleared by occupational health department.

[sudden twang]

As a retired English barrister, I have no idea about this particular airline's standard operating procedures, but I have a clear understanding of how the law applies in the circumstances predicated here.

But please do share with us how it works in the USA.
I’d be interested in your opinion of the law. Post 113 defines aviation function states “ in flight”. That’s not been my understanding thus far.

[yellowtriumph]

Can I ask please Gentlemen & Ladies, of all who have posted comments regarding this particular thread, `how many of you are actively employed as Commercial Aircrew`?

I'm not. I'm a member of the general public who flies occasionally on commercial aircraft.

When I do fly I appreciate it's highly skilled job, involving much training and experience. When I fly I am putting my life, and those of my loved ones, entirely in the hands of other people and I expect them to do their utmost to ensure we all get from point A to point B in complete safety.

I'll just repeat a bit of that. I am putting my life entirely in the hands of other people. As such, I expect them to be at the top of their game and not under the deliberate influence of any substance that might cause their skills to be blunted in any way. None, zero, zilch.

There are rules, I imagine, that cover the usage of any substance that might reduce the effectiveness of a pilot, and cabin crew. If any member of the cabin crew or flight deck don't follow those rules then they are compromising my safety, my personal safety.

If you break the rules, you are out. No if's, no but's in my rule book. Flight deck crew appear to me to be very well remunerated for what is required of them - and that is right, absolutely right. But don't screw around with my safety or anyone else's on the flight. I'm an innocent in all this after all and I'm putting my life in your hands, or did I mention that already?

[parabellum]

in the case of pilots, it seems, the case can be remitted to the Crown Court either for trial or sentence


Just curious, if the case is remitted to the Crown Court for trial does that mean it will now be before a jury? Can the case still be remitted to a Crown Court if the accused pleaded guilty in a lower court?

[sudden twang]

Fair point yellow triumph. I suppose you apply the same criteria to the surgeon about to operate on you? Oh and the pharmacist dispensing your drugs. And the mechanic servicing your car and every other road user and the gas fitter etc etc oh and you of course shouldn’t drink even at home you may fall down the stairs ah no that’s different you are endangering your own life but no you may land on someone.
I don’t condone reporting for duty under the influence AT ALL. I think we should keep it in perspective however,air travel is amazingly safe. If you were to be killed or injured during a flight the statistics would suggest that it wouldn’t be due to pilot intoxication ( in the Western World). Pilot fatigue is infinitely more likely as is your exit being hindered by your or someone else’s intoxication/ retrieval of Cabin baggage.

[Basil]

yellowtriumph, Very well put and a posting all those personally responsible for the well-being of others should read, whether surgeons, bus drivers, manufacturing pharmacists or pilots.

I understand and am sure that all of my professional colleagues are of a similar mind.

[Airbanda]

Just curious, if the case is remitted to the Crown Court for trial does that mean it will now be before a jury? Can the case still be remitted to a Crown Court if the accused pleaded guilty in a lower court?

Appears to be an 'either way' offence triable either summarily (magistrate) or indictment (crown court with jury).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/section/95

NB: IANAL

[4468]

yellowtriumph

Having spent forty years as a professional pilot, I can assure you, these days, the performance of your pilot is infinitely more likely to be adversely affected by fatigue, than alcohol. Particularly at the intoxication levels specified by the law!

The effects of fatigue are serious. They were vastly underestimated/ignored when politicians (between boozy lunches!) brought in the much less restrictive EASA flight time limitations. Totally ignoring the science in the process!

I can't be breathalysed for fatigue, and it's problematic to self diagnose! Not least because companies don't want to be forced to employ more 'expensive' pilots, and many customers buy their tickets on the basis of only one criteria. Price.

But don't let a mere professional get in the way of your condescending grandstanding! Just continue as you are in blissful ignorance, while great professionals keep your soft squidgy bag of flesh and organs in one piece!

If you want to know who might REALLY be compromising your safety, you need to look way beyond pilots!

[CW247]

Here here. Well put.

Joe Public wants cheap flights and airline bosses make that possible by lobbying politicians and rule makers.

[Chu Chu]

I apologize if someone's said this before, but it seems to me that a critical question is how high his alcohol levels were (if they existed at all). As I understand it, the cutoff is low enough that a pilot might follow all the applicable rules of thumb, not feel impaired, and still be over the limit. (For example if he metabolizes alcohol unusually slowly, or was served drinks stronger than he thought they were.) And the cutoff is, after all, arbitrary. If 19 mg/ml is deemed safe, 21 mg/ml can hardly be certain death for all on the aircraft.

Of course, a pilot could avoid any risk by not drinking at all for a long period before the flight, but drinking isn't prohibited. I'd hope a pilot wouldn't be crucified for doing something he reasonably believed would keep him on the right side of the law, and created little or no actual risk.

Of course, a significantly higher level is likely to indicate a serious alcohol problem, extreme recklessness, or both.

[Wannabedriver]

Parabellum - the Mags will accept a guilty plea and decide whether their powers are sufficient to sentence. If not it'll be committed to crown court for sentencing only. If it's a not guilty plea, it may be deemed not suitable for summary trial and sent to crown.


Basil - not sure if the below is relevant to your earlier point:


Activities Ancillary to Aviation Functions
94(3) For the purposes of sections 92 to 102 of this Act, a reference to an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function is a reference to anything which falls to be treated as such by virtue of subsections (4) to (6) below.
94(4) An activity shall be treated as ancillary to an aviation function if it is undertaken-
(a) by a person who has reported for a period of duty in respect of the function, and
(b) as a requirement of, for the purpose of or in connection with the performance of the function during that period of duty.
94(5) A person who in accordance with the terms of an employment or undertaking holds himself ready to perform an aviation function if called upon shall be treated as carrying out an activity ancillary to the function.
94(6) Where a person sets out to perform an aviation function, anything which he does by way of preparing to perform the function shall be treated as an activity ancillary to it.
94(7) For the purposes of this sections it is immaterial whether a person performs a function or carries out an activity in the course of an employment or trade or otherwise.


94(5) and 94(6) cover pre-flight stuff etc I believe - sorry if this was totally irrelevant as I've simply skimmed over the replies.

[yellowtriumph]

yellowtriumph

Having spent forty years as a professional pilot, I can assure you, these days, the performance of your pilot is infinitely more likely to be adversely affected by fatigue, than alcohol. Particularly at the intoxication levels specified by the law!

The effects of fatigue are serious. They were vastly underestimated/ignored when politicians (between boozy lunches!) brought in the much less restrictive EASA flight time limitations. Totally ignoring the science in the process!

I can't be breathalysed for fatigue, and it's problematic to self diagnose! Not least because companies don't want to be forced to employ more 'expensive' pilots, and many customers buy their tickets on the basis of only one criteria. Price.

But don't let a mere professional get in the way of your condescending grandstanding! Just continue as you are in blissful ignorance, while great professionals keep your soft squidgy bag of flesh and organs in one piece!

If you want to know who might REALLY be compromising your safety, you need to look way beyond pilots!

The thread is about the consequences of alcohol misuse in particular, not fatigue so if you want to start another thread about that go ahead.

My perspective is that of Joe Public, one you appear not to understand. Your mere 40 years as a professional pilot (and you accuse me of condescending grandstanding) appears to have blinded you to the simplistic view the public have of your job. From our perspective your job is complicated, you require extensive initial training and subsequent on-going training. That, together with your subsequent experience, means that we - the general public - believe you and your colleagues will get us safely from a to b.

For that we expect you to be well remunerated in your job, we pay for that, and in return we expect, we require, we demand that you take no deliberate action to reduce your ability to perform your role to the best of your ability and that includes not breaking whatever the legal safety limits are with regard to alcohol consumption during your careers.

If you choose to break those limits, note the word ‘choose’, then as far as I’m concerned you’re out. And I’m quite sure Joe public would agree.

I’m quite sure the other points you raise are pertinent and justifiable to the overall safety of the commercial aviation industry, but they are not pertinent to this thread.

[Deep and fast]

....even cheaper is don’t drink before a duty. If you require/need alcohol the night before an early report something is wrong - perhaps with your personal life or your discipline/attitude. Buying a (probably) questionably accurate breathalyser to check you’re “ok” should be setting off alarm bells. Bit of personal reflection may be?

We have a highly responsible job, remunerated accordingly. Is it worth risking that (and potentially the aircraft and its contents) for a drink? The rules are clear and known before we signed up - it comes with the territory.

As alluded to in an earlier post perhaps the greater threat in the future will be drugs not alcohol.


A4 it might not have been the night before, maybe a nice bit of Sunday lunch or some such situation where there would be enough time to metabolise the alcohol. The problem is that no one knows how quickly your body deals with it.

Yellowtriumph, if you want you pilots at the top of their game then you need to write to the authorities about the EASA FTL limits as this is far more likely to be the biggest factor in pilot performance than a few beers the night before. But that would cost 90p a ticket to resolve so it won’t happen any time soon.

[yellowtriumph]

I’m sure like most members of the general public I have no idea what you’re talking about. EASA FTL - hocus pocus to me. I have no doubt though that as an industry whatever it is is of great importance to you and your colleagues as no doubt it concerns the safety and operation of commercial aircraft. I absolutely respect that, I genuinely, absolutely respect all pilots, yours is not an easy job. I have no doubts that all you pilots want to work in as safe a working environment as you can for everyone’s benefit, who could possibly argue with that.

But, like most members of the general public I do know about alcohol consumption. I’m frankly astonished that you might feel it’s ok to have a few bevvies the night before taking control of a passenger aircraft. I really am. You yourself felt that no-one knows how quickly the body deals with it yet I can’t believe you think it’s ok to gamble with the results.

[wiggy]

I’m sure like most members of the general public I have no idea what you’re talking about. EASA FTL - hocus pocus to me.............

.I’m frankly astonished that you might feel it’s ok to have a few bevvies the night before taking control of a passenger aircraft. I really am..

Put it like this.....which do you think honestly think is more detrimental to performance:

1. A pilot having one small beer in an evening more than 8 hours before a morning report or two glasses of wine or two beers with dinner the day before an evening report 24 hours hence.

Or:

2. A sequence of short haul 12 hour multi sector duty days, or operating the back end a long haul two pilot sector, having not slept for perhaps 24 hours?

For the avoidance of any doubts I don’t think any of the professional crew posting here are condoning pushing the legal and company limits on alcohol, but they do get frustrated when some people’s supposed concern for safety appears so one track/single issue. I’d actually be fine with having to “blow” at every report...as long as the authorities/airlines also have you doing a fatigue test of some sort at the same time....which will never happen.

(Edit to add: I’d like to enter this post as evidence. Some may have realised it has taken me at least 5 or 6 goes to get it right. I’ve not touched a drop of booze in several days, but have just got back from a longhaul rotation, had naff all sleep in 24 hours, and it’s now 3 AM local and I’m ***** awake. I should have gone to the pub earlier....)

[ShotOne]

"Like most members of the general public I have no idea what you're talking about..." Which begs the question, yellow triumph, why then are you delivering pompous lectures on a professional pilots forum? Nobody here has remotely suggested it's ok to have "a few bevies before a flight". But if you actually have an interest in air safety, perhaps you'd at least consider the very major safety hazard posed by fatigue. And ask why this risk is routinely tolerated when a much smaller risk from alcohol gets so many on a hysterical high-horse

[Deep and fast]

I’m still trying to work out how my posts have been construed as condoning getting pissed the night before!

Thanks wts and wig....

[bluesideoops]

@4468 if fatigue is such a big problem (which I don't doubt it is) presumably all pilots should avoid alcohol in any amount as it can only compound the fatigue issues?

[Herod]

Further to JW411's post 130, once the new rules came into force, I was advised by my AME that the very low level permitted meant alcohol could be detected over 24 hours after consumption. I changed my habits to not having any alcohol at all on the day before a flight, meaning a drink only on day one of a two-day break. That gave a minimum of some thirty hours. Restricted the social life, but kept me legal. Now I'm teetotal (but no longer flying!)

[BusyB]

4468, Good post

Yellowtriumph, google comparison charts for hours awake v alcohol equivalence. Going crew fatigue and taking yourself off a flight does happen. However with operators scheduling Max duty days followed by Minimum rests I would be fascinated to know if you can go to sleep on demand and stay asleep for required time. Go crew fatigue too often and you lose your job.

[yellowtriumph]

I’m still trying to work out how my posts have been construed as condoning getting pissed the night before!

Thanks wts and wig....

If you re-read what I posted you will see I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt. I said ' .. you might feel it's ok etc .. 'I meant 'might' as in the possibility rather than 'might' as in fact - there is a misunderstanding between us which I have introduced, perhaps a better choice of word from me would not have led to that, and for that I apologise with no reservation. As I said, I respect all pilots and have no doubt you all set out to perform your duties to the highest standards.

[A and C]

For those pilots who are yet to have a fatigue issue I can tell you that you are in for a surprise, in that you will be the last to know that you have become a victim of the appalling and dangerous EASA flight time limitations rules.

The current EASA regulations are simply not safe in the long run and are now the largest risk to the traveling public despite the headlines in the papers that go for the very occasional drunk pilot issue as if it was an everyday happening.

In forty years in the business I have only seen one of my crew mates turn up drunk ( and he only got as far as the hotel lobby ) but discovered myself flying multiple flights under fatigue but failed to recognise the symptoms in myself.

I was fortunate enough to be in a financal position to take an 80% Roster to combat the effects of fatigue and feel much better for it but with the huge debts that young pilots have to pay off to get into the industry some of these people simply can’t afford to take the option of working less and become unwilling victims of fatigue.

It is so easy for those who write for the papers to headline drunk pilots because the tests can say conclusively if they are guilty and it makes a good cheap story, far harder to sell a newspaper report about fatigue as it is about as hard to pin down as it is to nail a jelly ( jello for the Americans ) to a wall, and yet fatigue is the biggest danger in the industry at the moment.

[wiggy]

The point I'm labouring is that aircrew fatigue is not something an individual can control,

Actually the individuals who come up with the various Flight Time Limitations rules are in a position to improve measures to control fatigue.

alcohol consumption is - very much so. And that is what this thread is about, not fatigue. I await the flak, but there you go

No flak from me, but I must admit I eagerly await the first report of a refueller or security “operative” snagging a crew for looking Christmas Crackered....then we might be getting somewhere (but many passengers won’t be).

Now...back to the alcohol..

[4468]

Happy to leave this supposedly professional pilots forum, to anyone who wants to contribute.

Seemingly, mostly people with lots to say, and nothing to learn. Yet are attracted to pilot's websites.

Over to you.

[yellowtriumph]

yellowtriumph,
You are on an aviation forum and many posters have declared their profession (along with their professional concerns.) It would be interesting to know your profession !! Are you a Daily Mail reporter perhaps!!

I don't think it would be appropriate to divulge my profession before I retired as it is a small industry. It was a very high tech industry involving detailed technical problem solving often under tight deadlines. But if the problem wasn't solved no lives would be lost.

I can tell you though that I was not/am not a reporter for any publication! I do read the DM (for some of the puzzles in the centre section), but then again I read more than one publication.

My work did involve nearly 35 years of irregular late/early shift work with no real pattern to it. It would be be very appropriate to say the pattern often led to fatigue on my part and some of the colleagues I worked with. As I lived 50 miles from my place of work and often worked outside of normal public transport hours I routinely had to drive to work and back.

I posted in another thread that one day driving home from work I was convinced I was barely a few miles from a lay-by where I could pull over, as I often did, and have a nap as I was feeling tired.

In reality I was asleep at the wheel.

Somewhere deep, deep down in my thoughts I realised what as happening and somewhat incredulously I 'came to' to find the car heading for the central barrier of the A3. I regained control, drove on for those few miles and pulled over. I sat there and cried and cried over what had nearly happened. The next day I went and saw my boss, and said I simply couldn't go on. He was a decent man, very sympathetic and there and then told me that from that day on if I was feeling tired I should simply go home whilst I was fit to do so.

It was only when I retired that I realised what damage all those years of irregular shift work did to me. Retirement very quickly brought on a new sense of mental well being and alertness (no stress), a sense of physical well being (no 16 hours days including travelling). I am refreshed.

Some here think that I am trying to make an issue about alcohol alone, that somehow I should be concentrating more on fatigue. Judging what you aviation professionals are posting it seems fatigue is more of an issue. But that was not what this thread was about and that is why I, for one, am not posting about it, well until now if you see what I mean. I was lucky, I had a decent boss who had actually done my job by my side for years before. I well understand that your industry is different, it is world wide, cosy personal arrangements don't work and could not possibly work. What is the solution to your fatigue issues? I don't know.

My posts are well intentioned, perhaps though they aren't hitting the right mark and fellow posters are taking them in the wrong spirit. Thats the danger of www I guess.

Edit to add: Just seen 4468's post. What doing you want me to reply? I come to Prune precisely to be informed, educated and often entertained a bit like the BBC I suppose. The forum appears to me to be largely resident to a large number of intelligent and 'life aware' souls. I am often enriched by what I read and I hope in return I can return some of that on occasion. The fact that it is a pilots website is not really pertinent, it is the kind of people who occupy it that is the point, it could be any site. Although of course I obviously accept that most of the sub-forums are absolutely related to aviation content where I tend not to go.

[Basil]

Wannabedriver, Thank you; I missed the 'ancillary' clause.

FWIW, I don't think yellowtriumph was being pompous at all.

I DO think the comments about fatigue are well said.

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, I think it's almost inevitable (and not necessarily a bad thing) that a thread about one sort of pilot impairment (alcohol) will drift into whataboutery re another form of impairment (fatigue) which is arguably much more pervasive.

[AndoniP]

I think yellowtriumph was just trying to stay on point, keeping the discussion related to alcohol consumption. The thread was always going to drift towards fatigue eventually, to try and put it into perspective.

Alcohol consumption is something that can be controlled by the pilot at any time (unless they have a problem) and if so, is a silly thing to get caught out by. Fatigue I imagine is to do with factors higher up the chain, relating to duty times and so on, things that are slightly out of a pilot's control.

It may be all well and good not reporting for work due to fatigue as someone suggested, but I'd imagine it's the fear of regularly doing so and the repercussions on their career at their airline that prevents them from doing so?

I'd be interested to know, how many professional pilots here have called the office and told them they are unfit to fly after self-diagnosing themselves as being fatigued? And have you had to do it regularly?

[BusyB]

The point of the Fatigue dangers is that they can be directly related to the Alcohol dangers. As has been shown there are obvious ways that alcohol use will show, unlike fatigue. The fuss that has been made about this incident and the total lack of concern about fatigue is a sad inditement of peoples priorities.

[Loose rivets]

"Why we sleep" by Matthew Walker. An odd Christmas present but one that got my attention. It is utterly jaw-dropping.


I suspect it might be a tad expensive but by some means I recommend laying hands on it. I suspect it's not something an airline would buy for the crew room.

The book is presented by a superb scientist and writer. It's hard to imagine there could be a more qualified person in the world.

The information goes from interesting, via stunning, to bewilderingly alarming. I can't find strong enough terms, especially when it comes to the continued sales of some sleep aids. My words, but nothing short of murderous is how I would describe it, and it's not hard to see why it happens. The profits are beyond fiction.

Brain function against tiredness is the prime theme but consideration is given to the cost to nations.

IIRC $411 Billion is lost to the United States due to the workforce growing up with the current work ethos of working late and being in the office early. America leads the world in that direct loss, though Japan overtakes when compared to the GNP.

It seems nothing could be further from the truth and some enlightened companies are even installing rest rooms - in America I should say, resting rooms. Google I believe is one.


Well of course that's fine for a company that has a vast cash reserves but as we know, airlines have always operated on the edge. Flight time limitations being a major burden.

For me, it wasn't the fact I had not got enough time off, it was quite simply not knowing when I was going to be tired. In my day I'd be prodded if I even closed my eyes for a moment. A more enlightened world now, but if this book is anything to go by we've a long way to go before crews are operating at maximum efficiency. Human brains require 7 - 9 hours sleep.

And then there is Margret Thatcher that thought she could run a country - and it armed forces - on 4 hours a night.

[CloudHound]

Back to the original subject matter.

I think it important to note that the 49 year old man suspected of being under the influence of alcohol prior to operating a BA service from Gatwick has been released from custody.

The information available to date indicates he has not been charged with any offence and is "under investigation". There is no mention of bail.

So innocent until proved... etc.

[Hotel Tango]

What? How can the PPRuNe Court of Justice survive with this maxim?

Fully agree with you Cloud Hound.

[Deadstick126]

I would never have even one sip of alcohol in the 12 hours preceding a flight. Limits are ridiculous when it should be zero tolerance.

[roving]

Some EU countries already have zero tolerance on the highway, some are considering introducing it.

Lithuania is considering extending its zero BAC limit to all drivers. The proposal is one of the measures announced by the leader of the political party that won the general election in October.

Commercial and novice drivers are already subject to a zero BAC limit. Other drivers are permitted a maximum level of 0.4 g/l.

The Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia are the only other European countries that apply a zero-tolerance policy across the board.

No timetable has been given for when the measure might be introduced, according to media reports.

Lithuania moves towards zero tolerance on alcohol for all drivers | ETSC (http://etsc.eu/lithuania-moves-towards-zero-tolerance-on-alcohol-for-all-drivers/)

[Airbubba]

The information available to date indicates he has not been charged with any offence and is "under investigation". There is no mention of bail.

So innocent until proved... etc.

Yep, and as North Carolina lawyer Larry L. Archie, Esq. famously advertises 'Just because you did it doesn't mean you are guilty.'

An American Airlines FO showed up drunk at Manchester a few years ago and was arrested. He got a jury trial and got some of his buddies from the Ohio Air Guard to come testify in their shiny blue uniforms about his character.

One of the character witnesses was a brigadier who himself had recently had an unusual single vehicle mishap leaving the O-club late one night according to a colleague from the unit who knew all the players.

Anyway, the jury at the Minshul Street Crown Court bought the story that the American pilot drank the Bombay Sapphire (some reports called it whisky) in his sleep and he was going to the airport in his airline uniform to inform the captain that he was unfit for duty.

Cleared: The pilot who claimed he got drunk in his sleep

by JAMES TOZER

Last updated at 22:31 21 March 2007

An airline pilot who turned up for duty on a transatlantic flight nearly six-and-a-half times the alcohol limit was cleared - after claiming he had been drinking in his sleep.

James Yates, 47, had been on a six-hour drinking session the evening before and was stopped at an airport security point looking dishevelled and unsteady on his feet, it was claimed.

But a jury acquitted the first officer of attempting to board the cockpit of the American Airlines Boeing 767 which had been due to take 181 passengers from Manchester to Chicago.

During the case, Yates, an American, had suggested he may have drunk a third of a bottle of whisky in his sleep after going to bed.

He denied he had been trying to get on the plane, insisting his intention was to find the captain and explain that he was not in a fit state to fly.

Cleared: The pilot who claimed he got drunk in his sleep | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-443872/Cleared-The-pilot-claimed-got-drunk-sleep.html)

[DaveReidUK]

The information available to date indicates he has not been charged with any offence and is "under investigation". There is no mention of bail.

Release "under investigation" is being increasingly used as an alternative to police bail as the latter is subject to time limits governing the investigation.

[Reverserbucket]

Where else are the rules so strict?
I wonder what happens if a surgeon, government minister or senior business leader shows up smelling of drink?
I bet they're not handcuffed for all to read about in the news and I bet they don't get put in prison for 6 months and then fired.I have some insight into a large EU public health system. Alcohol and particularly Class A drug consumption before (and on duty) is not uncommon in large hospitals by senior clinical professionals and others. They are known to colleagues, and appear to enjoy a level of protection through enhanced peer monitoring and supervision. They are not reported. Government Ministers in the UK are well known to frequent the numerous House of Commons watering holes, quite possibly to return to the chamber to vote following a drink or two perhaps? Although probably not as common as in the past, I don't believe Board Rooms are entirely devoid of decanters and drinks cabinets these days - indeed, I've been handed a sharpener whilst 'on duty' myself (not a safety related function I would add) by the CEO of a large airline group in the past year whilst he reached for one himself. Even in the subjectively puritanical land of the free I've known senior managers who are able to produce a bottle of Scotch and a couple of glasses from a desk drawer in their office. Class A drug use is well practiced in the financial world by those who may well be managing the funds our pensions depend on...clearly it's a cultural behaviour and entirely personal choice, however alcohol and other less tolerated drugs are more prevalent than perhaps we would like to believe in many different and varied walks of society but I would suggest that commercial aviation remains one of the most conservative of industries. Fatigue is by far the greater risk to flight safety and a layman who has undertaken a Fatigue Risk Management Course would be able to identify potential smoking holes in EASA's FTL Regulations.

[Basil]

I would never have even one sip of alcohol in the 12 hours preceding a flight. Limits are ridiculous when it should be zero tolerance.
You can't have a zero limit because, AFAIK, fermentation in the intestines can produce ethanol (and other undesirable products :E).
I'm very happy to be flown by someone whose BAC does not exceed 20mg/100ml.

Posted this last year but:
Free barrel on @ Sqn.
Mentioned to TC that we had sim at 1800 so would have to miss festivities.
TC said go for it and, if it turns to worms we'll just do it again tomorrow.
It did. (when more complex failures were introduced)
Like hypoxia, flying only slightly drunk should be a sim training exercise.

[LookingForAJob]

I would never have even one sip of alcohol in the 12 hours preceding a flight. Limits are ridiculous when it should be zero tolerance.
But I guess an all-time great drinking session that ended precisely 12 hours before report = zero tolerance.

[scifi]

It really is about time that 100% breath-testing of all crew should be done prior to each flight, much the same as the use of metal detectors are commonplace. It is only if you actually know your reading, that you will be able to control your drinking, it would cut out all the guesswork.
I should be Ok as I have only had a half-pint of lager in 2018 so far, and class myself as a non drinker.
.

[Council Van]

Guilty until proven inocent then?

[Herod]

Like hypoxia, flying only slightly drunk should be a sim training exercise.

There is a film somewhere of an exercise exactly like that. The crew of, I think, a 727 were put in the sim and gradually fed more drinks. It should be compulsory viewing. If I can find it I'll post, but it was many years ago.

Edit. I can't find the film, but here is a medical article about it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2012569

[A and C]

You are showing your lack of understanding of human physiology, we all have some alcohol in our bloodstream due to the way that the body processes food, the alcohol limit for flying in Europe is effectively zero alcohol consumed and just above the level that can be manufactured by the body’s digestive system.

If your absolute zero alcohol limit was to be observed then no Aircraft would leave the ground and no train leave the railway station.

[Tay Cough]

There's just one minor problem with that - in spite of all the talk about fatigue science, there is nothing close to a deploy-able (and reliable) test for fatigue on an individual level.

... other than looking at your previous achieved roster.

[4468]

At the levels currently proscribed by the regulations, there is strong evidence that alcohol actually has a performance ENHANCING effect! Precisely why, until very recently, it was on WADA’s list of banned substances for sports requiring high levels of concentration, such as shooting and archery!

The level proscribed is simply an arbitrary figure. One could find oneself above it, yet not be either ‘drunk’ or ‘incapable’! It’s one quarter of the drink drive limit.

Now try to run the same argument with fatigue, and ask which way have EASA recently pushed THOSE limits!!

And why!

[sudden twang]

There is a film somewhere of an exercise exactly like that. The crew of, I think, a 727 were put in the sim and gradually fed more drinks. It should be compulsory viewing. If I can find it I'll post, but it was many years ago.

Edit. I can't find the film, but here is a medical article about it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2012569
I’ve seen that film and v much doubt those guys could fly sober.

[DaveReidUK]

Because if they could fly sober, they would be able to fly when drunk ?

Hmmm.

[sudden twang]

Because if they could fly sober, they would be able to fly when drunk ?

Hmmm.

No, if they can’t fly sober then they’d be even worse drunk. That film was unscientific and ridiculous

[parabellum]

I would never have even one sip of alcohol in the 12 hours preceding a flight. Limits are ridiculous when it should be zero tolerance.


I have always had a deep seated mis-trust of 'Pilot Perfect'. Not in any way condoning breaking the CAA rules but have seen tee-total pilots put in a far worse performance than someone who had a couple of beers the night before whilst on the right side of the eight hour limit. Probably the most frightening episode was watching a pilot fly a completely flawless simulator detail right up until he arrived over a beacon for an ADF procedure and turned the wrong way by 180 degrees, heading straight for Mt. Granite. Much preferred flying with pilots who were a little bit either side of the datum at times but always trying to correct it and were concentrating on what they were doing.

[ph-sbe]

Guilty until proven innocent then?

You have a class 1 medical, right? Does that mean you are guilty until proven innocent? No, of course not. Your class 1 medical comes with the fine print which says that in any change in your medical condition, your class 1 medical is no longer considered valid. Any type of new prescription medication, as well as change in your physical well-being other than a simple flu-like illness, invalidates your class 1 medical.

All of these rules governing your medical state are aimed at ensuring you are fit to fly, as are the rules that (attempt to) govern fatigue.

Any future requirement to use a breathalyzer prior to operating a commercial aircraft is most certainly aimed at confirming that you are fit to fly. You may feel you have the right to be considered "innocent" until proven "guilty", but the lives of the 500+ people you are about to take into your hands, trumps that right in my opinion.

And again, I want to stress out that this is only a matter or perception. Those with a negative outlook will look at such a mandate as "guilty until proven innocent". Those with a more realistic outlook will consider it a confirmation that you're fit to fly*.

At the same time, I personally feel that those who fail the breathalyzer should be protected from over-aggressive criminal action. A sliding scale of coaching and non-criminal discipline would encourage safety, as opposed to immediate criminal action and LOL.

* and yes, I realize that this does not exclude fatigue, illness etc.

[His dudeness]

Those with a negative outlook will look at such a mandate as "guilty until proven innocent". Those with a more realistic outlook will consider it a confirmation that you're fit to fly*.

Those that you prescribe as having a more realistic outlook simply have an issue with their rights and wrongs.

[His dudeness]

A bus driver can have about 80 people in his back, often schoolchildren. They are worth less ? A driver of a high hazard chemical tanker can wipe out as many people as a A380 pilot - who is not alone in his "driver cabin" whilst there a no 2 wheels and brake pedals in trucks/busses. WHERE do you draw the line ?

[PiggyBack]

I would never have even one sip of alcohol in the 12 hours preceding a flight. Limits are ridiculous when it should be zero tolerance.

What does zero tolerance mean? Alcohol occurs in the body without any consumption so if the limit was set to zero no one would fly at all.

The current driving limit of 80 mg/l was set after research that showed that this was at this point that performance started to degrade significantly, interestingly performance increased slightly at lower levels. The exact level is of course arguable, different studies give slightly different results, when is a change significant etc but setting the limit to a quarter of this level is rightly very cautious. Setting it significantly lower would mean that pilots who had consumed no alchol within that last several days could exceed the limit which is surely not desireable.

What evidence is there that setting a limit lower than currently would improve safety?

[recceguy]

I don't know the story in details, but as far as I'm concerned, should the cops want to remove me handcuffed me from my cockpit, there will have to be a dozen of them. Which is not going to work in the confined space of a cockpit which I know in details.
It's not going to be great in front of the passengers either.
Why should I bother ? if they decide to handcuff me, my career is dead anyway !
I think at some moment we need to remember we have a nicer uniform than they have, and that our fellow society at work is cabin crew instead of street prostitutes.
Also we need to remember the extraction and the average extraction of those "officers" .
They have powers, but not the one to humiliate and take revenge from other uniformed people which they have always been jealous of.
Now I agree it all depends from which countries come both opponents... some nationalities are more obedient than others !

By the way, I don't drink during layovers, before flights, after flights, and in fact virtually never - and then some people here will say that I have a boring life. At least it saves me from embarrassment, which has not been the case of quite a lot of colleagues this year in my big company.

[roving]

This is a useful article. Apologies if it has already been posted. It addresses many of the issues raised here including some EU countries having to relax their zero tolerance laws to accommodate pilots from other EU countries with less strict requirements.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/18/drunken-airbaltic-crew-included-co-pilot-at-seven-times-legal-alcohol-limit

[Contact Approach]

So was the guy drunk? or not?

[LookingForAJob]

The drink-flying limit was fixed in European law in the late 1980s, meaning that some countries that had previously had a zero limit, such as Germany, had to relax the rules to accommodate different drinking traditions.Not strictly correct. If the limit introduced in the late 80s referred to was from a European regulation it is directly applicable to all EU members and no individual State is supposed to have more stringent rules........the level playing field and all that.

[DaveReidUK]

So was the guy drunk? or not?

Yes, definitely one of those two.

Are you asking us to predict what a court will decide (if it gets that far) ?

[roving]

The principle of margin of appreciation permits EU member states to impose stricter requirements.

See this extract from

https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Consolidated%20unofficial%20AMC%26GM_Annex%20IV%20Part-CAT.pdf

[ImageGear]

So was the guy drunk? or not?

The real question is:- Was the operator of the aircraft actually impaired mentally or physically in such a way as to increase the potential for error, above normal, during a flight.

In this case, "Drunk or not" means having to define whether an offence was committed by resorting to Law because the real question cannot be answered. Whether the law is an ass or not is considered irrelevant.

To my knowledge, the person in question did not exhibit characteristics that answer the real question.

[Heathrow Harry]

and since the only real way to check if he was truly incapacitated or not was to let him crew an aircraft with paying passengers quite reasonably the law has substituted a breath/blood test.

Or I guess they could have taken his word for it.

[ImageGear]

Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight.

Interestingly, perhaps thought should be given to introducing carefully designed, short simulator sessions that could reveal functional and mental shortcomings immediately before every flight. They need not be longer than 10 minutes or so, and if failed, require either a follow up blood test or a programme of retraining. I am aware that this could introduce some serious delay if actioned but the alternative of letting someone loose while incapacitated is unthinkable.

There would, as always, be a cost to be carried, but the airlines could well benefit from an increased level of passenger confidence.

[underfire]

Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight.

That would shut down air travel.

[roybert]

Imagegear
If I was to pull myself off the job every time I'm put on medication the chances of me working would be limited. Most of the medication I'm prescribed comes with the warning May cause Dizziness. Never had it happen but based on your thoughts I wouldn't be working. And I can't see airlines or airports putting in a simulator to ensure pilots are fit to fly, the cost would be prohibitive

[His dudeness]

There would, as always, be a cost to be carried, but the airlines could well benefit from an increased level of passenger confidence.

So you suggest there is a significant number of people who would fly if they could thrust the airlines/pilots ?

[yellowtriumph]

" .... Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight. ..."

That would shut down air travel.

Perhaps he meant the passengers ...?

[Burpbot]

" .... Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight. ..."



Perhaps he meant the passengers ...?

A 48 hour drinking ban for pax would be a huge benefit to many crews working lives!

What I do not understand is why the whole industry is held to some may say a rediculiusly low limit! But engineers can perform at the much higher drink drive limit? Surely engineers perform often more complex tasks, often alone with no supervision or “back up” pair of eyes should they be three times more pissed than the crew? Just seems illogical to me!

[RAT 5]

" .... Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight. ..."

So the crews that work 5/2 or 4/2............? A new parameter to be included in pilot recruitment. As well as all the wonderful team playing, management & decisions making qualities, under stress, you need to be T-total.

[pilotmike]

ImageGear

Seriously?

As passengers appear to be their own worst enemy in (thankfully rare) emergency evacuations, and they have caused numerous costly diversions due to 'air rage', being drunk, and general stupidity, many here might very well approve of exactly those same sanctions for passengers before being allowed to board, and a few more added for good measure.

An example regime for passengers to match yours for the pilots might read something like this:

- breathalysed to ensure zero alcohol, else refused boarding

- refused boarding if they're on any medication whatsoever

- refused boarding if they fail to sign a disclaimer allowing the airline to reclaim from them £1M if they even attempt to take their hand luggage in an emergency evac.

- an instant £10k fine for operating any electrical equipment when instructed not to.

- an instant £10k fine for not paying attention to the safety briefing

- no wheelchairs, no elderly, nobody requiring oxygen, no smokers etc. Maybe set an intelligence test and refuse anyone with an IQ below 90?

The list could go on and on. Or maybe a modicum of reasonableness is required that would even allow ImageGear to carry on being allowed to fly?

Just sayin'!

[M.Mouse]

Interestingly, perhaps thought should be given to introducing carefully designed, short simulator sessions that could reveal functional and mental shortcomings immediately before every flight. They need not be longer than 10 minutes or so, and if failed, require either a follow up blood test or a programme of retraining.

So let me do some calculations. BA has circa 4,500 pilots. So let's say, conservatively, 30 minutes required to get to the simulator, get it configured and then carry out the exercise. That makes 2,250 hours of simulator time required to cover every pilot for just one flight each. Plus someone to operate the simulator and assess the performance.

What I find quite extraordinary in this thread is the draconian proposals to address a virtually non-existent problem, certainly as far as crews based in Europe and the USA are concerned. I cannot speak for other areas.

Much like the proposals to reduce the blood/alcohol limit for drivers in the UK will not actually stop or reduce the number of people prosecuted any changes to the existing regime will have little or no effect. It will just make life a little less tolerable for those who behave responsibly, those with an alcohol problem will continue whatever the limits whether it be driving or any other walk of life.

[ph-sbe]

Those that you prescribe as having a more realistic outlook simply have an issue with their rights and wrongs.

Can you elaborate on that?

Every time I touch my throttle, I make sure I am 100% sober in terms of alcohol and medication. And I do my darned best to make sure I've had more than enough sleep. Of course, I've been tired on some occasions, but the adrenaline (yes, I still feel that) of advancing the throttles still makes up for it.

It's not just the lives of those in the back, but also of those on the ground.

Pushing back to the idea of using a breathalyzer before every flight is, while understandable from an individual's position, indicative of a failure to see the bigger picture.

I like to compare this with the concept of eminent domain. Eminent domain is a legal practice where a government can "seize" private property for the public good. In that case, there are compelling reasons to infringe on the individual right to ownership in the name of the public good. Using a breathalyzer prior to operating an aircraft, whether you're a PPL student or an A380 driver, should in my humble opinion be considered as part of IM SAFE, if you remember that. Hint: it's the A.

[ImageGear]

A number of very interesting responses to my post.

A couple of points. I choose to not fly with certain airlines for many reasons including, safety record, comfort and service, my possibly perceived expectation of a certain level of competency of the crew, price and other criteria. Incidents of blood alcohol content issues are certainly noted, as are throwing passengers with children of a flight when they have allocated seats, and similar provocative issues.

As with most of us with a little knowledge, we absolutely refuse to fly with certain carriers who do not meet the standards we expect. I am sure that the people who frequent these forums know exactly which airlines fall into that category. After all, passengers are clients and they are placing their trust in the crew, the drink/flying criteria applicable to them should not be expected to be the same as the crew. (However I also applaud the work being done by some UK airlines to clamp down on idiotic donkeys who frighten and endanger everyone.

If, as has been suggested that some pilots can only perform their function efficiently after consuming alcohol, then I would expect them to find another career which does not involve carrying passengers at 475 kts and 37,000'. This is not barnstorming in the 30's.

Finally, I should have clarified my comment regarding simulator testing. I was thinking more along the lines of a simple test with hand/eye coordination, interspersed mental arithmetic (Speed, height, distance) and perhaps FMC reprogramming. Definitely not full procedural, full motion, etc.

[Council Van]

I am surprised you ever get on an aircraft as you seem to have little respect or trust in the ability of Professional Pilots to be 'professional' and do their jobs.

Perhaps Car drivers should undergo similar tests before they are allowed to drive as thousand of people are dieing on the roads every day where as no passengers were killed on commercial jet aircraft last year.

There is not a problem with 'drunk pilots' in the Western world.

[BusAirDriver]

IMAGEGEAR

Let me see if I understand this correctly, do you mean that before every flight we should do this?

How will we do it on a 4 sector day, should we do it between each sector too?

I mean would be interesting to see the effects of fatigue / tiredness, which is a bigger issue than alcohol is in aviation.

I mean you might get top score before your first flight in the morning, but you might fail before your 4.th sector due to fatigue.

I am not sure if I should cough or laugh? :ugh:

[A and C]

Being that the level of achohol abuse by flight crew is very low I have to ask if a breath test prior to flight is a worthwhile safety measure or could the money be better spent to improve flight safety in other ways ?

[ImageGear]

BusAirDriver

...and that nicely rounds out the case in that I as both a pilot and a fare paying passenger don't really care whether my pilot flying, is drunk, fatigued, on medication, or on drugs. (Don't mention suicidal)

The test will probably catch it and is not dependent on blood content, time, temperature, amount of sleep or anything else. It only serves to confirm that a level of competency has been achieved in core skills prior to operation.

Whether the tests are 2 minutes, 10 minutes, before first sector, before last sector, short haul, long haul, daily, random or whatever. I think it would be a significant improvement to current procedures.

[Hussar 54]

This is a useful article. Apologies if it has already been posted. It addresses many of the issues raised here including some EU countries having to relax their zero tolerance laws to accommodate pilots from other EU countries with less strict requirements.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/18/drunken-airbaltic-crew-included-co-pilot-at-seven-times-legal-alcohol-limit



Not commenting one way or the other, but one November afternoon, about 10 years ago, I was in LYS waiting for a delayed flight to LHR.

Delay of a couple of hours, so I thought I'd have a stroll around the terminal to kill time and, being November and Beaujolais Nouveau week and all that that means in that part of the world, I'd go and have a glass or two in the temporary bar erected landside in Terminal 1 for a week or so specifically for sampling that year's crop.

I'd just got started on the second glass when I was suddenly pushed in the back and spilled quite a bit on the floor. Turning around to see who / what was the cause, I suddenly was face-to-face with two glass holding, smiling and very apologetic gents wearing IB uniforms and ID tags - one with four stripes and the other with three stripes on their shoulders.

Of course, they might have just dismbarked and were on their way to a HOTAC somewhere, but if they were they'd obviously forgotten about and left their overcoats and baggage on their just arrived aircraft...

[wiggy]

Whether the tests are 2 minutes, 10 minutes, before first sector, before last sector, short haul, long haul, daily, random or whatever. I think it would be a significant improvement to current procedures.

Imagegear...How would you reconcile the above with the rosters/sectors most of us work these days?

Stick any such test on the start of a flying duty period and it becomes part of that duty period, and could make many ultra long haul sectors or a short haul multi sector days unworkable. By way of an illustration in BA’s case there’s no spare room in the BA T5 area...so if your idea was adopted a pilot would probably have to report to the Hatton Cross training complex (at which point the law demands the duty clock starts running) , do the 2 min/10 min test or whatever it is you are suggesting, then get in his or her car, drive to the crew car park (or take a bus) and head for crew report at T5, possibly via the crew car park ....you’d be adding an hour at the very least onto the front end of duty days and rendering many short haul days rosters and Long Haul sectors unworkable.......it is simply not going to happen.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Lol, imagine an LCL sticking a sim everywhere. Stupidest idea I've ever heard.

[Burpbot]

Would the “proposed” Pre Flight tests also be hindered by fatigue!

If every crew member needs to be alcohol/drug tested prior to each flight then ground every Flight! To me that indicates a huge failing in the system! If we are all such a risk to safety we can’t report fit weather through drink, drugs, over counter medicine, or fatigue then ground every aircraft to be sure! Complete lunacy!

I presume nobody has an issue with legally flying 13 hours without a break, or access to food and drink and then drive up to one and a half hours home? Oh yea of course that’s cool and legal!!! What a rediculous and unsafe regulatory body we are managed under!

[parabellum]

After the pre-flight SIM can we reasonably expect to see a small annex alongside every hospital operating theatre where a surgeon will, under the watchful eye of a professor of surgery, carry out a short procedure to prove his/her fitness?


Then, after that, we have the railways, the merchant marine, bus depots and so it goes. How about a mini court room off to the side of the main courts where barristers can answer some questions on law and respond to a few choice quotes from an 'accused' or their witness?

[Burpbot]

Oh hang on! Just found out why pilots can’t have half a pint a month before duty!!!

https://bangshift.com/bangshiftxl/man-australia-arrested-driving-wingless-plane-bar-favorite-news-story-ever/

[Sykes]

I can't be bothered trying to reply reasonably, as I see others have, but to no avail.

ImageGear

Please stop posting. Your comments and suggestions are some of the stupidest I've ever heard.

(Wont help, I know, but I feel better now)

[Contact Approach]

Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight.

Interestingly, perhaps thought should be given to introducing carefully designed, short simulator sessions that could reveal functional and mental shortcomings immediately before every flight. They need not be longer than 10 minutes or so, and if failed, require either a follow up blood test or a programme of retraining. I am aware that this could introduce some serious delay if actioned but the alternative of letting someone loose while incapacitated is unthinkable.

There would, as always, be a cost to be carried, but the airlines could well benefit from an increased level of passenger confidence.

You've clearly never been blessed with a 24 hour layover then...

[Burpbot]

I seem to recall Air France pilots went on strike in the early nineties due to the removal of wine from their crew meal.

[split system breaker]

As a member of SLF, paying up to £100 for an airline ticket, I am fully entitled to expect and demand 100% concentration from pilots at the peak of their abilities.

Pre-flight simulator checks are a start, as are mandatory alcohol and drug tests, and I suggest a short interview with a specially trained mental health professional before every flight. However, this does not address the issue of pilots making lifestyle choices which may have a negative effect on their abilities; and therefore my safety - I think you’ll agree this is utterly unacceptable.

I suggest that pilots should be forced to wear an activity tracker and body camera for at least the preceding 48 hours before every flight. Also every stool should be sampled for evidence of unhealthy or unbalanced diet.

Personal relationships must be subject to external examination and approval, and any sexual activity carefully monitored.

Then, and only then, would I be confidently prepared to put my safety in their hands.

I realise there is a cost implication to all this, but I am sure most pilots would be happy to pay for this themselves, representing as it does a small price to pay for the benefit of having people like myself as their passengers.

[Hussar 54]

That's your famous English sense of humour, I hope....

[SamYeager]

or even irony... ;)

[fantom]

Twelve pages of enlighted opinion.

Why don't we wait and see what happens to the poor individual?