Passengers unwell on flight to NY?

[A0283]

Newsreader said .." Probably a lack of oxygen in the cabin "...
Wonder if they mean a loss of pressurization or something else ?

update

From Schiphol AMS to Newark EWR, 7 pax and 8 crew unwell (not known if that included pilots), plane returned to AMS.
Oxygen problem, cause unknown.
Flight UA071, departed Schiphol at 10.37 hrs, passed Ireland, over Atlantic Ocean, then returns to Schiphol. Landed back at AMS at 14.57 hrs.
Hard landing, at least one tyre burst, small fire in MLG, quickly extinguished by AMS ARFF.
Pax transferred to other flights or to hotel.
DTSB at Schiphol already started investigation. Will talk to crew and check out recorders.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ua71#102b91bf

767-322(ER)

[Aireps]

Lack of oxygen? The tracking sites show this flight at FL330 on its return leg to AMS. No sign of an emergency descent to FL100. Lack of oxygen would affect all on board, not just 7 pax and 8 crew.

[Havingwings4ever]

Several pax (including an aerospace engineer) stated to smell something like "dirty socks".
Airline states it probably is a cause of acute flu or food poisoning.
Pax and crew, including cockpit had symptoms of dizziness and vision problems, doesn't sound like food poisoning since (cockpit) crew catering is different than pax.
Acute flu? hmmm

Sounds more like a fume event, unfiltered bleed air contaminated by super-heated oil(oil leak).
Something like aerotoxic syndrome.

At least the first airline(EasyJet) is installing filters to prevent this from allegedly happening.

The biggest cover up in aviation.

I was very skeptical about this until I did some extensive research, it is clear that crew's are and have been exposed to toxins from oil leaks, it has been documented by eg Boeing 40+ years ago.

EasyJet is not acknowledging the real issue, but at least takes action for the well being of her crew members and pax, "just in case"

Crew members around the world should get a lot more proactive about this, we work in a at times toxic environment. Press your unions and companies to at least install detectors in the cabin, and preferably filters, although it's not clear yet if those are capable of preventing those toxins from entering the cabin/cockpit.

For the skeptics out there, do your research.

[cavortingcheetah]

There is no scepticism in this cockpit.
Many thousands of hours in F27s and HS748s sometimes have me wondering why retirement seems sometimes to consist of hospital appointments of different invasive and altogether unpleasant natures.

[flash8]

Not to mention the BAe 146...

[RAT 5]

Were the winds still blowing strongly? I can't think of any connection between this event and such a hard landing. If the pilots were feeling unwell why not drop not Scotland or Manchester? Why not autoland? Burst tyres and MLG fire suggest a braking issue rather than touchdown g's. If they elected to fly an extra hour to return to AMS, there should be no panic to vacate. If there was a fire/smoke, does that suggest they had to stop on the taxiway and thus delay embarkation? i.e. achieve the opposite of being expeditious.

[Aireps]

I've replayed comms from the LiveATC EHAA-Radar-Southwest-Jan-19-2018-1330Z recording and attempted a transcription, starting at minute 01:08:EHAA Radar: "And United 71, can you advise us how many ambulances you need at the gate?"

UAL71: "We have about, uh, twelve to sixteen passengers that don't feel well. It's not a dire emergency. They all got nauseous and, uh, [...] incapacitated because of [unintelligible]. It's all our flight attendants [...] our flight attendants, just a few passengers."

EHAA Radar: "United 71, could you repeat the last part of your message?"

UAL71: "We have a total of eight to fourteen people that need assistance, United 71."

EHAA Radar: "United 71, roger."

[A0283]

All flight attendants and a few pax...?

What if ...

If you assume all flight attendants were standing and most pax seated at the time you would expect a relatively light gas or vapor being the cause of this. Light enough to spread relatively fast along the ceiling of the whole of the cabin. Would be interesting to know if the affected pax were or had been standing too. Those that were not, might give an idea about the origin location.

Until now I have never read an incident or accident report that gave the seating and standing locations of POB in such cases. Descriptions are all quite vague. Would be nice if the DTSB would produce a more detailed report in this case, locations and all. Especially because of the fact that in this specific case all ccw were affected and only a few pax.

Smoke, vapor, smell, particles, dust ... Sometimes they give the color of the smoke. You generally dont get more detail than that. Certainly not enough of a starting point to start separating these cases by their various natures and causes.
Was reading some reports the last few days. In one case white smoke was thought to be caused by condensation after riser ducts failed. The other case was white smoke thought to be dust descending from psu panels that dropped when the ac hit an obstruction during a rwy excursion. Thats were the detail ends.
In one report they stated that the cause was not a fire ... "Because the smoke was white" ... Well, uh, ...

[snooky]

I had over 20 years on 757 and 767 and often experienced the sweaty socks smell. I now have many symptoms typical of "aerotoxic syndrome". See https://www.change.org/p/stop-contaminated-cabin-air-in-aircraft

[SummerLightning]

The symptoms are also consistent with those reported in cases of mass psychogenic illness (aka mass hysteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria)).

[snooky]

I'm surprised to hear that neuropathy and heart attack are symptomatic of psychogenic illness.

[suninmyeyes]

Many years ago we had a flight where all the cabin crew were feeling a bit sick, nauseous or dizzy and a few passengers too. It turned out to be a yaw damper fault resulting in a very small but continuous dutch rolling movement. Those who were standing up had their sense of balance affected more, hence the high percentage of cabin crew affected.

So maybe this flight from Amsterdam had dutch roll issues :)

[Mozella]

Lack of oxygen? The tracking sites show this flight at FL330 on its return leg to AMS. No sign of an emergency descent to FL100. Lack of oxygen would affect all on board, not just 7 pax and 8 crew.

You may believe that and I may believe that. Scientists and engineers believe it too; however, not everyone does.

When I was a TWA Captain I remember the flight attendant's union filing a complaint that we 767 pilots were diverting oxygen to the cockpit and thus we were intentionally starving the cabin of the oxygen they deserved. It made them tired and irritable. Many, if not most, of our F/A's believed it. :ugh:

[A0283]

There are a number of factors and combinations that can create similar effects. To systematically separate these we would need far more detailed reports (as I suggest in my #8 post in this thread).

#12 (permalink) suninmyeyes's Avatarsuninmyeyes ... Many years ago we had a flight where all the cabin crew were feeling a bit sick, nauseous or dizzy and a few passengers too. It turned out to be a yaw damper fault resulting in a very small but continuous dutch rolling movement. Those who were standing up had their sense of balance affected more, hence the high percentage of cabin crew affected.

Low frequency movements in the below 1 Hz ranges can have that effect, yes. A similar example is a case where the crew could not get the A/P on, flew manual upto say FL200. And unintentionally introduced a low Hz motion. Such motion also affects the mind by the way. It should be possible to construct a scenario where you can create similar symptoms in POBs with hypoxia and motion for a period of time during a flight ... after effects can be felt one or more days after in both cases. But note that effects can be different for each person, or say groups of persons. Discussing long term effects is (even) more difficult and lacks even more useable data.

#13 (permalink) Mozella's AvatarMozella , 22nd Jan 2018 07:21Quote: Originally Posted by Aireps.. Lack of oxygen? The tracking sites show this flight at FL330 on its return leg to AMS. No sign of an emergency descent to FL100. Lack of oxygen would affect all on board, not just 7 pax and 8 crew.
You may believe that and I may believe that. Scientists and engineers believe it too; however, not everyone does.
When I was a TWA Captain I remember the flight attendant's union filing a complaint that we 767 pilots were diverting oxygen to the cockpit and thus we were intentionally starving the cabin of the oxygen they deserved. It made them tired and irritable. Many, if not most, of our F/A's believed it.

When you have a design that feeds the cockpit with bleed air directly. And feed the cabin a combination of bleedair and air recirculated through the cargo hold. Then you ve got two separate flows, with a different mix. So if you had any issue in the cargo hold for example that would generate a difference. So nothing intentional from the pilots. But the FAs could be right for the wrong reasons ..for some of the flights ... And maybe some ac types or versions.

What I suggest in my post #8 is that to separate the multitude of both symptoms and causes, we would need much better (public) data AND (because so much is unclear at this stage) cases that give clear and specific situational and technical differences. For example, if Mozella's case only played in the 767 and not the 757 or 777, then such a case at this stage would be much more interesting and helpful than a case which just says 'Boeing aircraft...'... Boeing being just an example.

[australiancalou]

Has this airplane been deiced in AMS?

[A0283]

@australian...deice... Was not There, but dont think so, mild weather at Schiphol.

In a relatively recent case they had deicing fluid in apu space. Cleaned it and other spaces up thoroughly and effects disappeared. Only to return and disappear again later in specifically that aircraft. Two FA ended up with serious permanent issues, many others pax and crew no issues at all. Operator decided later to stop deicing with apu running after they found that glycol values went over the limit during tests. Just to be sure.
Investigators and airline tested the ac on multiple occasions on dozens of chemicals with multiple sniffer types. All values significantly below allowable values. Crew tested too.
Problem with the chemical approach could be that limits are based on single substance tests, so not on combinations. For that you would have to devise a more advanced BD-test.

But before doing that i would suggest taking a look at a number of other potential causes. Causes not directly related to 'chemical' that is.

[Aireps]

There were no icing conditions at AMS/EHAM at ATD (about 9:25Z).
METAR EHAM 190855Z 26010KT 9999 FEW018 04/01 Q1006 NOSIG

[Sailvi767]

I am unaware of any transport category jet that feeds bleed air directly to the cockpit other than as a trim air source to increase temperature which of course is used throughout most aircraft.

[Aireps]

The Dutch Safety Board issued this statement saying that they are investigating the occurrence:

https://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2407/an-aircraft-returned-to-schiphol-after-cabin-staff-and-passengers-indicated-that-they-did-not-feel-well-january-19th-2018

One hour after the Boeing 767-300ER departed from Schiphol, the entire cabin crew indicated they felt unwell. In concert with the company the captain decided to return to Schiphol. After landing the cabin crew were met and checked by a medical team. After the aircraft came to a stop, the high temperature of one of the brakes activated a thermal fuse plug and one of the aircraft tires deflated. The Dutch Safety Board is investigating the cause(s) of the occurrence.

[Gauges and Dials]

Years ago, airline cabin crews were among the leaders in pressing for nontoxic, smoke-free workplaces, and their perseverance has benefited all of us. Press on for research and mitigation!

[megan]

There were no icing conditions at AMS/EHAM at ATD (about 9:25Z)I very much it would be the case in this instance, but aircraft may need to deice if they have tankered fuel.

[A0283]

@sail... 25th Jan 2018 00:29 I am unaware of any transport category jet that feeds bleed air directly to the cockpit other than as a trim air source to increase temperature which of course is used throughout most aircraft.

Sorry, should have given more detail... Both flows pass through an airco pack. So directly means outside air through the pack into the cockpit. The other flow mixes outside air with cargo air and then delivers the mix to the cabin.