Departing early on a VFR flight plan

[Sam Rutherford]

So, I thought (think) I can leave up to an hour before the time filed, and up to an hour after. A two hour window.

At Brussels this morning, I wanted to depart 40 minutes ahead of schedule (how often does that happen??!!) and got a the controller (Ground) telling me I had to wait 40 minutes. I explained my understanding of the rules, and he told me "no, from time you have filed until +30 minutes".

So - who's right? Question is for Belgium, but actually would be interested to hear if it's not internationally standard...

Cheers, Sam.

[A and C]

It was my understanding that there are no limitations on departure time on a VFR flight plan.

[chevvron]

How long before you called for start did you file? Some places insist you file at least one or even 2 hours before (no I can't understand why either)

[TheOddOne]

I think there's a confusion here between 'time filed' and filed (departure) time'.

You need to leave time for the plan to get around the system. Even though you're VFR, presumably you still need co-ordinating around IFR traffic if you're departing from an aerodrome with mixed traffic?

TOO

[piperboy84]

I wanted to leave 45 minutes earlier from Cascias (lisbon) on a VFR flight plan and they wouldn’t have it, I had to shut down go back into terminal and refile. 2 weeks ago I left earlier than scheduled from Forfar to Calais and again on the return Calais to Forfar and neither Lille control or Leuchars cared, they just opened it. So I’m guessing it’s the luck of the draw.

[ChickenHouse]

Whenever you touch anything under control / under separation rules / subject to slotting in Europe in your flightplan, your slot is 'time filed' to 'time filed +30'. Leaving early is a bad idea if eurocontrol is not expecting you in certain airspace for separation so soon. It is no problem to file one delay in the system, which you frequently have to do leaving late, but there is usually no 'leave earlier' in the system and 'bring forward' is known to crash certain routines in European airflow (as does delaying multiple times) - the system in Europe is authority based, not customer centric. Btw, in busy airspace, such as Brussels, the slot may often be only +15 based on offblock time, or even more restrictive with the system going down all the way to +5 -> read the AIP comments for that, if you don't want to check with tower.

If you start at an uncontrolled airfield, ATC won't tell you you are wrong over the frequency, but leaving from controlled tower, most of the times you won't get a clearance to leave ahead of schedule (because they would have to call and announce you being early over the phone ...). If going across borders, not all flightplans are passed ahead of schedule to the taking ATC or FIS, so leaving early would get you into entering foreign airspace on no flightplan (not relevant for countries not passing VFR flightplans from AIS to ATC or FIS anyways - not so uncommon).

[chevvron]

I wanted to leave 45 minutes earlier from Cascias (lisbon) on a VFR flight plan and they wouldn’t have it, I had to shut down go back into terminal and refile. 2 weeks ago I left earlier than scheduled from Forfar to Calais and again on the return Calais to Forfar and neither Lille control or Leuchars cared, they just opened it. So I’m guessing it’s the luck of the draw.

I personally don't think it matters as long as a DEP is sent.
If you do need to refile, you actually don't! To bring an IFR flight plan forward, you have to cancel and re-file, but with a VFR plan, you can just send a CHG with the new ETD.

[piperboy84]

Whenever you touch anything under control / under separation rules in your flightplan, your slot is 'time filed' to 'time filed +30'. Leaving early is a bad idea if eurocontrol is not expecting you in certain airspace for separation so soon. It is no problem to file delays in the system, which you frequently have to do leaving later than slot, but there is no 'leave earlier' in the system.

If you start at an uncontrolled airfield, ATC won't tell you you are wrong over the frequency, but leaving from controlled tower, most of the times you won't get a clearance to leave ahead of schedule (because they would have to call and announce you being early over the phone ...).

Makes sense, so the bottom line is don’t be getting ahead of yourself when it comes to your chosen departure time.

[piperboy84]

I personally don't think it matters as long as a DEP is sent.
If you do need to refile, you actually don't! To bring an IFR flight plan forward, you have to cancel and re-file, but with a VFR plan, you can just send a CHG with the new ETD.

Interestingly while on route from Lisbon back to Malaga on a VFR flight plan the enroute controller said that I should have had an airways intersection waypoint close to the Portuguese/Spanish border in my flight plan route, he asked me to pick one then fly to it as my ‘border crossing’ point which I thought was strange.

[Sam Rutherford]

Answering first question, the plan was filed the evening before.

A reminder that it was for a VFR flight plan, normally no slot required. In confirmation, if I depart on a flight (same airfield) without a flight plan then the first thing anyone knows about my flight is when I call GND for start - they just 'fit you in' between other flights (normally a non-issue involving waiting for the aircraft on finals if there is one).

So, returning to the question. I think I can depart up to an hour early on a VFR flight plan - the controller thought I cannot. Who's right?

The only information I have found on this is here:

https://www.foreflight.com/support/faqs/flight-plan-filing/

"A VFR flight plan can only be activated with your FSS in the time period of one hour before your filed departure time to two hours after. An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."

[Talkdownman]

VFR FPL Submission Time Parameters are in CAP694 (https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf) Chapter 2

[Sam Rutherford]

Not asking about submission times, asking about departing at a different time to that filed...

[Talkdownman]

Not asking about submission times, asking about departing at a different time to that filed...
Whatever. I'll go and read the local rag instead, then...

[Sam Rutherford]

Fairly sure submission times are generally known to be at least one hour before.

[Johnm]

Fairly sure submission times are generally known to be at least one hour before.

Old technology issue. File on line and it’s there instantly if no slot required you should be able to go pretty much anytime.

[HershamBoys]

File on line and it’s there instantly if no slot required you should be able to go pretty much anytime.

Sorry, not always true. Just 'cos you've pressed 'SEND' on your device, it doesn't mean it's in the system. There is frequently a delay between the FPL sent by your software going to the host server, being processed, and the end result popping out at the departure ATSU.

HB

HB

[TheWrongTrousers]

Wow. Last time I checked, different countries had different rules, therefore requiring the Commander to check the “local” AIP for any differences to ICAO requirements. FPL validity being a classic example of various countries around Europe having “differences” including FPLs...

Just because it’s filed on a device doesn’t mean it abides by local requirements either!

[A Squared]

The only information I have found on this is here:

https://www.foreflight.com/support/faqs/flight-plan-filing/

"A VFR flight plan can only be activated with your FSS in the time period of one hour before your filed departure time to two hours after. An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."


That appears to me to be a discussion of US procedures, if so, of limited relevance to determining local nuance in Belgium.

[chevvron]

https://www.foreflight.com/support/faqs/flight-plan-filing/

An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."

Totally incorrect in Europe.
You are allowed to depart from 15 min before until 30 min after unless you have been issued with a CTOT, in which case it is 5 min before to 10 min after the CTOT (not your own EOBT).

[patowalker]

Re. flight plans submitted via Internet:
Flight plans can be submitted at the ARO by telephone, fax or AFTN, or through a workstation (at the international airports in Belgium).

An electronic flight plan form can also be filled out and sent through the Internet (see AIM-Meteo Briefing (https://www.belgocontrol.be/aim-meteo-briefing)).

When the flight plan has been submitted via Internet, the pilot shall contact ARO to ensure the flight plan is received correctly and has been approved by the Air Traffic Services.

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm interested - I assumed (!) that flight plan procedures were international. I guess this explains the difficulty in finding an answer that should be a fairly simple question.

Chevvron - this is for both VFR and IFR flights? All countries in Europe?

[chevvron]

I'm interested - I assumed (!) that flight plan procedures were international. I guess this explains the difficulty in finding an answer that should be a fairly simple question.

Chevvron - this is for both VFR and IFR flights? All countries in Europe?

No, as per the quote, I was referring to IFR flight plans only and it's valid for all countries whose IFR plans are sent via IFPS.
A someone else pointed out, you found a list of requirements for the USA where their rules have to take into account their 'blanket' Class E airspace and the fact that many airfields in the USA aren't connected to AFTN and instead have their own system of forwarding plans from the closest ATCC or FSS (Flight Service Station).

[piperboy84]

No, as per the quote, I was referring to IFR flight plans only and it's valid for all countries whose IFR plans are sent via EFPS.
A someone else pointed out, you found a list of requirements for the USA where their rules have to take into account their 'blanket' Class E airspace and the fact that many airfields in the USA aren't connected to AFTN and instead have their own system of forwarding plans from the closest ATCC or FSS (Flight Service Station).

That was part of the training for my instrument ticket, fly an instrument approach into a non towered field then call the FSS and file a departure IFR plan over the phone. IIRC I had 30 minutes from hang up to get in the air and make contact.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hm. Whilst the red herrings are of interest, my question was about VFR flight plans, and when you can/should depart with reference to the filed time..

[Jim59]

CAP 694, the UK Flight Planning Guide answers all your questions. Download as a PDF and find instances of TIME and Delay and all will be revealed.
Generally 60 mins notice is required before startup, exceptionally 30 mins may be possible. Window is up to 60 mins late for uncontrolled flights - otherwise 30 - however a delay mesaege may be sent to avoid the need for resubmission of plan.

[Sam Rutherford]

I've already looked at that, but all I've found is Para 10, chapter 6, page 6. Which explains what to do for IFR flights. I haven't found anything there about VFR flights.

Not for that it's not there, something of an HD document, but I certainly couldn't find it - nor anything that mentions this subject at all apart from the US based document posted earlier.

So, the question remains, can I leave early on a VFR flight plan, and how early?!

Funny - should be a simple question easily answered, but clearly isn't.

[BackPacker]

In NL it's plus or minus 30 minutes of EOBT for VFR. (ref NL AIP, ENR 1.10) (*)

Trying to leave more than 30 minutes early requires a cancellation and refile, which is easiest done if you call the FIS directly. Leaving late requires sending a Delay message.

(If the delay is due to weather then I typically call up Rotterdam Delivery on their frequency and ask them to push back the plan a bit. They are normally kind enough to keep pushing it back if the weather conditions don't improve as quickly as planned, until I contact them to ask for startup, or cancel the flight altogether.)

Formally a flight plan needs to be submitted an hour before EOBT, but in practice it can be much less. VFR flight plans submitted electronically (homebriefing.nl, SkyDemon, whatever) still need a human in the FIS office pushing the button before it's distributed. They tend not to be amused if you make a habit out of submitting them with very short notice when there's no need. So if you do need to file at short notice, best to call them and coordinate with them. Once the person at the other end of the phone line has accepted your plan and submitted it for distribution, it will be available at the TWR virtually instantaneously.

We fly VFR from a controlled field (EHRD) in the Netherlands, which requires a formal flight plan for every flight. All the "based" pilots tend to get very proficient at "working the system" very quickly. There have been several occasions where I called Delivery for startup and found out there was something wrong with the plan. Grab the cellphone, call the FIO, sort out the problem and have them submit a new plan. Switch on the avionics again and ask for startup again. Easy.

(Edited)
(*) The plus 30 minutes window is pretty well established, but I can't find any reference in the AIP for the minus 30 minutes window. Maybe it's in EASA-SERA?

[patowalker]

Next time try calling the ARO office, instead of the ground controller.

Can I modify (delay, cancel or move forward) a FPL that I have submitted via the Belgocontrol website ?

A: For the moment it is not yet possible for a user to make any change to his/her FPLs via the website. Any change should be made by calling the Belgocontrol ARO office (+32 2 206 25 40). The tabsheet ‘FPL Related Messages' is only intended for ARO staff and aeronautical authorities.

[Sam Rutherford]

Okay, so still no reference in any official document for leaving early on a VFR flight plan?!

[chevvron]

Okay, so still no reference in any official document for leaving early on a VFR flight plan?!

As I said before, most places in the UK a DEP is sent so if the plan is in the system, it doesn't matter.

[bookworm]

ICAO PANS-ATM says

4.4.2.1.2 In the event of a delay of 30 minutes in excess of the estimated off-block time for a controlled flight or a delay of one hour for an uncontrolled flight for which a flight plan has been submitted, the flight plan should be amended or a new flight plan submitted and the old flight plan cancelled, whichever is applicable.

It offers no guidance on departing early, though it does say elsewhere (11.4.2.2.2.5) that:

transmission of the FPL message may be withheld until one hour before the estimated off-block time, provided that this will permit each ATS unit concerned to receive the information at least 30 minutes before the time at which the aircraft is estimated to enter its area of responsibility.

This would imply that departing more than 30 mins early might break the system.

The IFPS User's Manual, which applies to IFR FPLs in Europe (and hence does not answer your question), says:

Any changes of more than 15 minutes to the EOBT of a filed flight plan shall be communicated to the IFPS. The IFPS shall not accept negative delays: should the EOBT of a flight need to be changed to an earlier time that flight must be cancelled and re-filed with the earlier EOBT.

Note Although it is not a requirement to update the EOBT of a non-ATFM-regulated flight where the change is not more than 15 minutes, it is recommended to make such an update to the flight plan held by the IFPS.

[custardpsc]

The Belgian AIP has info about delaying but is silent as far as I can tell bringing forward flight plans. It does have info specific to VFR flight plans. ENR 1.10 seems to be the place to look. In this instance I imagine the VFR flight plan was filed because of a requirement (as stated in AIP) to do so because ATC services are required ( ie departing from a controlled airfield) and this is why it is less flexible than a VFR flight plan filed solely for SAR purposes.

https://www.belgocontrol.be/html/belgocontrol_static/eaip/eAIP_Main/html/index-en-GB.html

[Sam Rutherford]

If referring to my experience, I filed a flight plan because I was flying to Switzerland. Non-international VFR flights into/out of Brussels Charleroi do not require flight plans.

[O_K_]

You could be restricted since you were flying out of EU? I do not know how EU-Swiss regulations are, but between Norway and EU (Sweden) there are certain requirements.

When we arrive in Norway we are not allowed to leave the aircraft before the arrival time in the flight plan unless we call Norwegian customs and get approval. This is because customs want to have the possibility to do random inspections and they do their planning according to the times filed in the flightplan. Usually I solve this by trying to arrive on time, or a tiny bit late, good training in flightplanning.

For departures from Norway the customs needs to be notified about the departure time at least 60 minutes before departure if we are traveling outside Norway (when departing from a airport with a manned customs office). I guess this is because they want to be able to do spot check of departing planes as well (i.e. large amounts of cash requires reporting to authorities before export).

It could be similar restrictions from the local customs office in Brussels that was the reason you were not allowed to leave early?

[Sam Rutherford]

I don't think so. Both departure and arrival airports are full international, no prior notice or permission required.

Indeed, that's not what the guy said on the radio.

He simply said that "on a VFR flight plan you can only depart during the period from departure time filed up to +30 minutes". I'm absolutely certain he's wrong, but cannot find any official document (anywhere in the world) that explains the full rules (including leaving early).

[O_K_]

My departure airport is also fully international, ENGM - Gardermoen which is the largest airport in Norway, but I agree that the reply you got suggests it is (or the controller think it is) restricted by VFR rules.

In the VFR guide to Norway it is clearly stated:

"If you like to bring your EOBT forward or
delay your flightplan, this is not a
problem.
Notify ATC or call AIS (tel. (+47) 64 81
90 00 (H24)) if you change the EOBT
more than 30 mins. either way. "

Generally Norway follows EASA rules and we have implemented most of the SERA regulations, however SERA allows for national differences in some cases.

However when checking the British VFR Guide it only covers delays not early departures.

[Sam Rutherford]

Okay, so Norway is first through the door with an official document covering an early VFR departure. No others?

Is this weird, or am I the only one interested by the apparent absence of regulation?

[md 600 driver]

Sam
The absence of any written information maybe a blessing in disguise as one could blag it

Steve

[3wheels]

If an aircraft departs our airfield early on a VFR flight plan we just send a DEP message in the usual way. Happens all the time but usually minutes,not hours early....Never been a problem.

If an aircraft departed an hour early we would do the same.

UK airfield,A/G,outside controlled airspace.

[chevvron]

If an aircraft departs our airfield early on a VFR flight plan we just send a DEP message in the usual way. Happens all the time but usually minutes,not hours early....Never been a problem.

If an aircraft departed an hour early we would do the same.


That's my experience too.

[Sam Rutherford]

I've previously left a little early, and up to 3 or 4 hours late without issue (trying it on successfully).

But these experiences are a little like driving too fast - the fact one gets away with it doesn't make it legal/correct.

I remain intrigued that it seems only the Norwegians have actually produced regulations on leaving early (VFR).

[Prop swinger]

SERA.4001.(d): A flight plan for any flight planned to operate across international borders or to be provided with air traffic control service or air traffic advisory service shall be submitted at least sixty minutes before departure . . .

[Sam Rutherford]

The question is about leaving early compared to the filed departure time - not the submission time of the flight plan itself.

[Phororhacos]

For what it is worth, in my personal experience, I've had no problems at Le Touquet with asking for start 20-30 mins early, so long as FPL filed electronically with Olivia or Skydemon. I've never asked elsewhere.

[daxwax]

I tried to leave Ostend an hour early on a VFR plan about 4 months ago and was told no departure before flight plan time. So spent ten minutes cancelling existing plan and refiling. (Nb the plan came up on their system about 3 seconds after I pressed submit on SkyDemon).

Only after I got home did I realise that (of course) I’d simultaneously cancelled and refiled a GAR without giving the 4 hours notice but havent had a knock at the door yet.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hm. So it's a Belgian thing?

Jan Olieslagers (!) any thoughts?

Best regards, Sam.

[bumfich]

Alderney said half an hour was the max they could let me leave early.

[3wheels]

Anyone know if VFR flight plans dont show up until 30 mins before estimated departure time at airfields in controlled airspace? The same as IFR ones?

Maybe that explains why Ostende and Alderney wouldn’t let you guys go. No flight plan on the system...yet.

At our place, A/G only, outside CAS, they show as soon as filed and we have no authority to hold aircraft.

[ArminZ]

Anyone know if VFR flight plans dont show up until 30 mins before estimated departure time at airfields in controlled airspace? The same as IFR ones?

Maybe that explains why Ostende and Alderney wouldn’t let you guys go. No flight plan on the system...yet.

At our place, A/G only, outside CAS, they show as soon as filed and we have no authority to hold aircraft.

Since VFR flight plans (at least AFAIK) are not handled centrally via Brussels, every country has its own system and limitations. My experience with VFR flight plans (Northern Europe/Baltics/Central Europe) ist that you might get away when you are 'a little early' (we talk about 10-15min), but not if you are an hour early. So the right strategy is really to submit a flight plan with the earliest theoretically possible departure time, and then just to shift the departure time (forward only) with delay messages. For a departure clearly earlier than stated on the submitted flight plan, I would call ARO, as suggested by a previous writer (again the national systems restrictions - there are systems where the entire flight plan will have to be re-filled).

Alderney said half an hour was the max they could let me leave early.

I have similar experiences (VFR in Northern Europe/Baltics/Central Europe). Usually you get away when you are early by 10-15min. To avoid running into such a situation, I essentially always file a flight plan with the earliest (even theoretical) departure time, and the just 'shift it forward' with the normal delay message. Also (at least AFAIK) VFR flight plans are not handled centrally, so every country might have its own system (with inherent restrictions). There are systems for which the entire flight plan must be re-generated if the departure time changes...

[Sam Rutherford]

Coming back to original situation, the controller had my plan in the system (presumably since the afternoon before). His unhappiness was with my wanting to 'launch' it 40 minutes early. After my question/query reply "I thought it was 1 hour +/- for VFR", the reply was: "we'll refile for you". Less than five minutes later I had my clearance to depart. So...?

[patowalker]

It is a system issue. If he could have allowed you to depart without re-filing, he would have. Or am I missing something?

[Sam Rutherford]

I think that had this been the reason, he would have said that? He was very clear that "VFR departure, only permitted on time up to +30 minutes".

Which I'm pretty certain is not correct - but can't find anything in writing, hence this thread.

[patowalker]

I've looked hard and can't find anything either. Have always understood departure was allowed up to 30' before the filed departure time and 60' after, when the FPL automatically falls out of the system.

[HershamBoys]

For departures from CAS, it is likely that whatever FPL you have filed, IFR or VFR, will have to be managed by the electronic system that produces strips for the controllers. What generally occurs is that these electronic systems that convert AFTN FPL messages to usable ATCO strips have time parameters that result in a strip appearing on the controller's display at a set time prior to departure. These parameters may vary between units. If you want to depart well in advance of your filed EOBT, it is possible that the ATCO will have to search the computer for a plan about which they have no knowledge, find the right one, bring it forward, and then ask the other agencies in the CAS, and in particular the parent unit, if they can bring their records forward as well: if they have the staff to do that. Proactive management of FPLs, e.g. sending CHG or DLA or cancelling and refiling is not difficult any more, thanks to the range of software on offer, and it is far better than hoping that ATC have the time and staff to prioritise a request to depart early for someone who hasn't bothered to manage their FPL.

[Sam Rutherford]

Presumably the system is set up to manage the permitted limits. The difficult thing seems to be finding what those limits (leaving early VFR) happen to be...

I thought VFR was one hour before to one hour after, but haven't found anything either supporting, or destroying, that belief (except in Norway).

[HershamBoys]

CAP 694 (for UK operations) says this:
6
Submission Time Parameters
6.1
The general ICAO requirement is that FPLs should be filed on the ground at least
60 minutes before clearance to start-up or
taxi is requested. The "Estimated Off Block
Time" (EOBT) is used as the planned departure
time in flight pla
nning, not the planned
airborne time. Exceptionally, in cases where
it is impossible to meet this requirement,
pilots or Aircraft Operators (AOs) should
give as much notice as possible, but never
less than 30 minutes.
6.2
In order to comply with the requirements of the Integrated Initial Flight Plan
Processing System (IFPS), FPLs for IFR flights should be filed a minimum of
60 minutes
before Estimated Off Block Time (EOBT)

[Sam Rutherford]

We know this, that's not the question!

The question is about leaving earlier than the filed departure time, not when flight plans can be filed...

[HershamBoys]

However, I see what you are getting at. You may well have submitted the FPL well in advance, but want to go early. It is likely that whoever wrote the guide innocently assumed that pilots would actively manage their FPLs, rather than taking a punt that ATC will have your FPL when you call for start/taxi. This might work outside CAS, but inside CAS, with electronically managed flight records, it is unlikely.

[Sam Rutherford]

The question remains the same, how early can you leave on a VFR flight plan (compared to the departure time that was filed). Incredibly, it seems only Norway have actually produced a number (30 minutes early) - nobody else.

I remembered it being 1 hour before or after - but not sure, and no references anywhere...

[HershamBoys]

So if I was creating an electronic flight data management system for airfields in CAS from scratch, I'd go to the national or ICAO guidance, and based on that I would set the time that the strip appears on the controller's display screen at somewhere between one hour and thirty minutes.

[Sam Rutherford]

Ah, and that's where it goes wrong. There is no national or ICAO guidance (apart from in Norway).

At least, not that anyone has yet found.

[HershamBoys]

I've re-checked ICAO Doc.4444, which offers no guidance on departing early, and SERA.4001 is a bit vague. All the guidance is targetted at late running departures. I come back to my assertion that the authorities expect pilots to manage their FPLs to reflect their revised EOBTs, and never envisaged anyone not complying.

[custardpsc]

Sam, if the only reason you needed a VFR flight plan was because it was an international flight, then it makes even less sense than at first glance. If you had cancelled your vfr flight plan, you could have departed vfr without delay. Or even asked for a vfr departure without using your flight plan then asked to activate it once airbourne. In neither situation would you be doing anything wrong. So no real/obvious reason for brussels to delay your departure. And indeed nothing to stop you filing an airbourne flight plan after departure. I think that you are right about the fact that no rules exist in general re early departure and I think that the guy in brussels has some explaining to do ! Also wondering about other situations requiring VFR flight plans, eg spain in general, night flight in some circumstances in europe etc, but in general VFR flight plans have no time dependent/slot/coordination issues so it makes sense that there are rules about late departure because there has to be a cut off where the fpl gets dropped if you aren't going to use it, but no issues round early usage. ( and trivial to cancel and refile since it requires no validation of route etc).

It woudl definitely be worth re-posting this in the ATC issues section. There is a host of knowledgeable people there that might not see this in private flying.

[Tagron]

Is not the issue here the difference in airspace structure between UK and (e.g.) Belgium ? Brussels EBBR and Charleroi EBCI have Class D CTRs, but these are surrounded by Class C Brussels TMA. It seems possible to fly right to the UK FIR boundary in the Class C airspace VFR and there the rules change. Because Controlled VFR is permitted in Class C the system may well expect the pilot to choose to operate in the controlled airspace rather than low level in Class G. In that case it might be understandable that the same flight planning and departure constraints should apply to a VFR flight as for IFR.

Whereas in the UK we have no option to fly VFR in controlled airspace, it is Class G overlaid by Class A (though for the purpose of discussion discounting the possibility of a Class D transit). In the UK departure case the VFR flight plan may serve no ATS purpose because there is no ATS control hence no coordination required. The purpose of the VFR flight plan serves to meet the requirement for international border crossing, for SAR, and for notification of ETA at the destination airfield. So why should it not be possible to activate the plan any time after it appears in the system ?

[3wheels]

God some people make it so difficult....
There are no rules in the uk...as has been said.
Airfields outside CAS airspace will send a DEP message.
Just Go.

Outside UK who knows...

[ArminZ]

The question remains the same, how early can you leave on a VFR flight plan (compared to the departure time that was filed). Incredibly, it seems only Norway have actually produced a number (30 minutes early) - nobody else.
I remembered it being 1 hour before or after - but not sure, and no references anywhere... You are correct that most AIPs only talk about delayed EOBT. I could only find a statement for Sweden (see below) but not for Norway (checked ENR 1.10, maybe you did use another source?)

5.2 If one or more of the following items are changed, the flight plan shall be cancelled and a new flight plan submitted.

Aircraft registration
Departure aerodrome and/or EOBT more than 15 minutes earlier than submitted
Destination aerodrome



Some more AIP excerpts. One more (The Netherlands) that explicitly mentions 'negative' delay, but in context with IFPS (means probably not relevant for VFR).
The delay 'limits' vary from 'as soon as practicable', 60min, 30min down to 15min. This was not the original question, but should show that the limit can be something else (in some cases considerably less) than EOBT plus one hour.

When a specific IFR flight is likely to encounter a delay of 15 minutes or VFR flight 30 minutes in excess of the departure time stated in the FPL it shall be announced as early as possible before departure to...

When a specific flight is likely to encounter a delay of 15 minutes or more in excess of the departure time stated in the RPL, the ATS unit serving the departure aerodrome ... shall be notified immediately.

In the event of a delay in departure in excess of 15 minutes from the estimated off-block time, for an IFR flight (except ATFM regulated flights)
or in excess of 30 minutes for a VFR flight for which a flight plan has been submitted, ...

(nothing found related to Flight plan delay)

A delay message for VFR flights shall be submitted to the ARO if the off-block time is delayed by more than 30 MIN compared with the off-block time indicated in the flight plan

All changes to VFR flight plans shall be reported as soon as practicable to the responsible ARO or to the appropriate ATS unit


Any delay of more than 30 minutes, 60 minutes for uncontrolled flights from the scheduled time of departure from the stand is submitted as quickly as possible to an appropriate air traffic service authority. If a delay notification has not been made within sixty minutes after the estimated time of departure from the stand, a new flight plan must be filed

Subject to the provisions of SERA.8020 (b) all changes to a flight plan submitted for an IFR flight, or a VFR flight operated as a controlled flight, shall be reported as soon as practicable to the appropriate air traffic services unit. For other VFR flights, significant changes to a flight plan shall be reported as soon as practicable to the appropriate air traffic services unit.

In the event of a delay (see note) in departure of more than 15 minutes for IFR flights (30 minutes for VFR flights) for which a flight plan
or a flight notification has been submitted, the flight plan or the flight notification shall be amended, or cancelled and resubmitted. Flight plans originating from RPL data are available within the IFPS only 20 hours before EOBT. Associated messages for flight plans originated from RPL data should therefore not be sent more than 20 hours before EOBT

To indicate a delay to a flight, a DLA or a CHG message may be used depending on the circumstances. To amend the EOBT to a later time, a DLA shall be sent to IFPS. Please note that the IFPS does not accept a negative delay i.e. a new EOBT which is earlier than the existing EOBT in the flight plan. Should the EOBT of a flight need to be changed to an earlier time, that flight must be cancelled and re-filed with the earlier EOBT

[Sam Rutherford]

That's for VFR?

So, Sweden also covers this - the Norway reference is earlier in the thread.

Two countries only (out of +/- 200) have actually published how much earlier than filed you can leave on a VFR flight plan. Nobody else!

[Pringle_]

Clearly there are no defined departure time tolerances for departing on VFR flight plans unless a portion of that flight is filed IFR. It is my understanding that departure tolerances have been devised in order to regulate the amount of IFR traffic in controlled airspace at any given time. It clearly would not be possible to predict traffic volumes if aircraft depart excessively early/late on flight plan times hence why the +/-15mins EOBT and -5+10 CTOT tolerance for 'slotted' flights exists.

It seems that since there are no rules governing VFR departures it relies on people using common sense and keeping their EOBT as accurate as possible, if you call for start/taxi an hour early and the controller does not have your details because the system only prints/displays strips for planned movements for the next 30 minutes then personally I think it would be reasonable for the controller to insist that a CHG message is sent or a refile.

[Sam Rutherford]

1. Though completely understandable, that's not what he said and nor do I think it's the case.
2. If I was flying within Belgium, without a flight plan, he'd also have no prior warning of my departure - but would just fit me in between departing traffic.
3. Equally, I can arrive at the airport (non-international VFR) and the very first he knows is a call to TWR "approaching the CTR..."

[patowalker]

3. Equally, I can arrive at the airport (non-international VFR) and the very first he knows is a call to TWR "approaching the CTR..."

I don't think that is the case in Belgium, because you are obliged to file a FPL if "any flight or portion thereof to be provided with ATC service"

[Sam Rutherford]

I can, do. So does everyone else, including the two (three?) flight schools that operate out of there...

[custardpsc]

Tagron

>Whereas in the UK we have no option to fly VFR in controlled airspace, it is Class G overlaid by Class A (though for the purpose of discussion discounting the possibility of a Class D transit).

At the risk of thread drift/being picky , what about departure VFR from any class D airport in UK? that would be VFR in controlled airspace...

[Pringle_]

Perhaps it would be wise to seek an explanation from the unit in question.

At the unit I work in pilots are required to file a flight plan/phone up and book out before you will be allowed to join/leave the class D CTR, announcing your arrival on the radio is not sufficient as the airfield is PPR.

We can print strips for flights later in the day/change flight plans at short notice so pilots calling up early/late on VFR flight plans aren't really an issue. However, every unit is different & without knowing systems/procedures it's difficult to know why they denied you start/taxi.

[Tagron]

Custardpsc

Yes, but the requirement to file a fllight plan for a VFR flight arriving or departing Class D airspace can be met by the initial radio contact and the passing of basic details. This I believe constitutes an Abbreviated Flight Plan.

So to return to Sam's flight if his destination had been another Belgian airfield then I suspect this is what he would have needed to do to get a clearance to exit the Class D at the CTR boundary then proceed outside (i.e. below) CAS. But because he had filed a full ICAO plan for boundary crossing purposes the system would have assumed he may have wished to proceed in the Class C CAS all the way to his FIR exit point.

It is worth remembering that Class C ICAO rules provide for positive separation of IFR from VFR, i.e.it is Controlled VFR, whereas in Class D the ICAO requirement is only for information on VFR traffic to be passed to IFR flights. Of course it is sometimes said that UK airfields control their Class D as if it were Class C, which is understandable but perhaps not a debate for now.

In the UK we have no Class C whereas in Belgium it covers the whole country from low altitude up to FL195. Hence perhaps the different planning and departure constraints with less flexibility for VFR.

[oneo]

Before the implamentation of new flight plan rules for IFR flights in IFPS zone (+-15 min) in 2002 , there was just ICAO rules.

4.4.2.1.2 In the event of a delay of 30 minutes in excess of the estimated off-block time for a controlled flight or a delay of one hour for an uncontrolled flight for which a flight plan has been submitted, the flight plan should be amended or a new flight plan submitted and the old flight plan cancelled, whichever is applicable.

Even though, these rules were mentioning delay circumstances, we were aplying them for the start up times also. +,- 30 min for IFR flights, +,- 60 min for VFR flights.
So as my thought, the only change made for IFR flight times,VFR application remained the same.

[Sam Rutherford]

Well, that was my recollection as well, but can't find it written anywhere...