Departing early on a VFR flight plan
Thread Starter
Departing early on a VFR flight plan
So, I thought (think) I can leave up to an hour before the time filed, and up to an hour after. A two hour window.
At Brussels this morning, I wanted to depart 40 minutes ahead of schedule (how often does that happen??!!) and got a the controller (Ground) telling me I had to wait 40 minutes. I explained my understanding of the rules, and he told me "no, from time you have filed until +30 minutes".
So - who's right? Question is for Belgium, but actually would be interested to hear if it's not internationally standard...
Cheers, Sam.
At Brussels this morning, I wanted to depart 40 minutes ahead of schedule (how often does that happen??!!) and got a the controller (Ground) telling me I had to wait 40 minutes. I explained my understanding of the rules, and he told me "no, from time you have filed until +30 minutes".
So - who's right? Question is for Belgium, but actually would be interested to hear if it's not internationally standard...
Cheers, Sam.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 73
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think there's a confusion here between 'time filed' and filed (departure) time'.
You need to leave time for the plan to get around the system. Even though you're VFR, presumably you still need co-ordinating around IFR traffic if you're departing from an aerodrome with mixed traffic?
TOO
You need to leave time for the plan to get around the system. Even though you're VFR, presumably you still need co-ordinating around IFR traffic if you're departing from an aerodrome with mixed traffic?
TOO
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 59
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wanted to leave 45 minutes earlier from Cascias (lisbon) on a VFR flight plan and they wouldn’t have it, I had to shut down go back into terminal and refile. 2 weeks ago I left earlier than scheduled from Forfar to Calais and again on the return Calais to Forfar and neither Lille control or Leuchars cared, they just opened it. So I’m guessing it’s the luck of the draw.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whenever you touch anything under control / under separation rules / subject to slotting in Europe in your flightplan, your slot is 'time filed' to 'time filed +30'. Leaving early is a bad idea if eurocontrol is not expecting you in certain airspace for separation so soon. It is no problem to file one delay in the system, which you frequently have to do leaving late, but there is usually no 'leave earlier' in the system and 'bring forward' is known to crash certain routines in European airflow (as does delaying multiple times) - the system in Europe is authority based, not customer centric. Btw, in busy airspace, such as Brussels, the slot may often be only +15 based on offblock time, or even more restrictive with the system going down all the way to +5 -> read the AIP comments for that, if you don't want to check with tower.
If you start at an uncontrolled airfield, ATC won't tell you you are wrong over the frequency, but leaving from controlled tower, most of the times you won't get a clearance to leave ahead of schedule (because they would have to call and announce you being early over the phone ...). If going across borders, not all flightplans are passed ahead of schedule to the taking ATC or FIS, so leaving early would get you into entering foreign airspace on no flightplan (not relevant for countries not passing VFR flightplans from AIS to ATC or FIS anyways - not so uncommon).
If you start at an uncontrolled airfield, ATC won't tell you you are wrong over the frequency, but leaving from controlled tower, most of the times you won't get a clearance to leave ahead of schedule (because they would have to call and announce you being early over the phone ...). If going across borders, not all flightplans are passed ahead of schedule to the taking ATC or FIS, so leaving early would get you into entering foreign airspace on no flightplan (not relevant for countries not passing VFR flightplans from AIS to ATC or FIS anyways - not so uncommon).
Last edited by ChickenHouse; 30th Dec 2017 at 00:28.
Originally Posted by piperboy84
I wanted to leave 45 minutes earlier from Cascias (lisbon) on a VFR flight plan and they wouldn’t have it, I had to shut down go back into terminal and refile. 2 weeks ago I left earlier than scheduled from Forfar to Calais and again on the return Calais to Forfar and neither Lille control or Leuchars cared, they just opened it. So I’m guessing it’s the luck of the draw.
If you do need to refile, you actually don't! To bring an IFR flight plan forward, you have to cancel and re-file, but with a VFR plan, you can just send a CHG with the new ETD.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 59
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse
Whenever you touch anything under control / under separation rules in your flightplan, your slot is 'time filed' to 'time filed +30'. Leaving early is a bad idea if eurocontrol is not expecting you in certain airspace for separation so soon. It is no problem to file delays in the system, which you frequently have to do leaving later than slot, but there is no 'leave earlier' in the system.
If you start at an uncontrolled airfield, ATC won't tell you you are wrong over the frequency, but leaving from controlled tower, most of the times you won't get a clearance to leave ahead of schedule (because they would have to call and announce you being early over the phone ...).
If you start at an uncontrolled airfield, ATC won't tell you you are wrong over the frequency, but leaving from controlled tower, most of the times you won't get a clearance to leave ahead of schedule (because they would have to call and announce you being early over the phone ...).
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 59
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chevvron
I personally don't think it matters as long as a DEP is sent.
If you do need to refile, you actually don't! To bring an IFR flight plan forward, you have to cancel and re-file, but with a VFR plan, you can just send a CHG with the new ETD.
If you do need to refile, you actually don't! To bring an IFR flight plan forward, you have to cancel and re-file, but with a VFR plan, you can just send a CHG with the new ETD.
Thread Starter
Answering first question, the plan was filed the evening before.
A reminder that it was for a VFR flight plan, normally no slot required. In confirmation, if I depart on a flight (same airfield) without a flight plan then the first thing anyone knows about my flight is when I call GND for start - they just 'fit you in' between other flights (normally a non-issue involving waiting for the aircraft on finals if there is one).
So, returning to the question. I think I can depart up to an hour early on a VFR flight plan - the controller thought I cannot. Who's right?
The only information I have found on this is here:
https://www.foreflight.com/support/f...t-plan-filing/
"A VFR flight plan can only be activated with your FSS in the time period of one hour before your filed departure time to two hours after. An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."
A reminder that it was for a VFR flight plan, normally no slot required. In confirmation, if I depart on a flight (same airfield) without a flight plan then the first thing anyone knows about my flight is when I call GND for start - they just 'fit you in' between other flights (normally a non-issue involving waiting for the aircraft on finals if there is one).
So, returning to the question. I think I can depart up to an hour early on a VFR flight plan - the controller thought I cannot. Who's right?
The only information I have found on this is here:
https://www.foreflight.com/support/f...t-plan-filing/
"A VFR flight plan can only be activated with your FSS in the time period of one hour before your filed departure time to two hours after. An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
Not asking about submission times, asking about departing at a different time to that filed...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
Fairly sure submission times are generally known to be at least one hour before.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: south of Blue 1
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
File on line and it’s there instantly if no slot required you should be able to go pretty much anytime.
Sorry, not always true. Just 'cos you've pressed 'SEND' on your device, it doesn't mean it's in the system. There is frequently a delay between the FPL sent by your software going to the host server, being processed, and the end result popping out at the departure ATSU.
HB
HB
Sorry, not always true. Just 'cos you've pressed 'SEND' on your device, it doesn't mean it's in the system. There is frequently a delay between the FPL sent by your software going to the host server, being processed, and the end result popping out at the departure ATSU.
HB
HB
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: with Gromit...
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow. Last time I checked, different countries had different rules, therefore requiring the Commander to check the “local” AIP for any differences to ICAO requirements. FPL validity being a classic example of various countries around Europe having “differences” including FPLs...
Just because it’s filed on a device doesn’t mean it abides by local requirements either!
Just because it’s filed on a device doesn’t mean it abides by local requirements either!
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 59
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
The only information I have found on this is here:
https://www.foreflight.com/support/f...t-plan-filing/
"A VFR flight plan can only be activated with your FSS in the time period of one hour before your filed departure time to two hours after. An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."
https://www.foreflight.com/support/f...t-plan-filing/
"A VFR flight plan can only be activated with your FSS in the time period of one hour before your filed departure time to two hours after. An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."
That appears to me to be a discussion of US procedures, if so, of limited relevance to determining local nuance in Belgium.
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
https://www.foreflight.com/support/f...t-plan-filing/
An IFR flight plan can be activated with ATC in the time period of two hours before your filed departure time to two hours after."
You are allowed to depart from 15 min before until 30 min after unless you have been issued with a CTOT, in which case it is 5 min before to 10 min after the CTOT (not your own EOBT).
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Plumpton Green
Age: 78
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re. flight plans submitted via Internet:
Flight plans can be submitted at the ARO by telephone, fax or AFTN, or through a workstation (at the international airports in Belgium).
An electronic flight plan form can also be filled out and sent through the Internet (see AIM-Meteo Briefing).
When the flight plan has been submitted via Internet, the pilot shall contact ARO to ensure the flight plan is received correctly and has been approved by the Air Traffic Services.
An electronic flight plan form can also be filled out and sent through the Internet (see AIM-Meteo Briefing).
When the flight plan has been submitted via Internet, the pilot shall contact ARO to ensure the flight plan is received correctly and has been approved by the Air Traffic Services.
