Broadcasting ATC during flying events

[Sam Rutherford]

My understanding is that listening to ATC in many countries is illegal. Whether that makes sense or not is for another thread but my question for now is whether this is ever done?

We have some events coming up next year, in a number of countries, and I was thinking it would really add to the audience experience if they could hear the interaction between the controller and the pilots. From PA speakers, or via an APP on a phone etc.

Anyone done this, or seen (heard!) it done?

Or got reasons why it's a really bad idea?

Thanks, Sam.



PS just seen it's done for Oshkosh - so, more specific, whether this is ever done in Europe?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What you need to do it to read the appropriate legislation for the countries involved. Certainly, what you are proposing is illegal in the UK. My experience of air shows is that the PA systems are so awful that Joe Public probably wouldn't understand the R/T.

[Sam Rutherford]

Yes, I've understood that it's illegal in the UK - but has anyone every applied for an exemption. Perhaps at the same time as requesting an event-specific frequency?

For the technical aspects, I think that at source rebroadcast via wifi etc. to smartphones would work well and be perfectly understandable.

[patowalker]

This (https://www.liveatc.net/feedmap/feedmap.html) should give n idea of where it is legal.

[TheOddOne]

The Sparrows seem to get away with it...

'Smoke on - GO!'

TOO

[Sam Rutherford]

Do they? So people have heard this done (officially) in the UK?

[ChickenHouse]

We had this discussion on our flying group quite often and we always ended in "forget it". The legal issue with official ATC being broadcasted is so complicated that you as a private have no chance to fetch the legal implications (Btw pointing to liveatc does not help as this broadcast is not to be compared with a broadcast at a private event).

But why transmit the ATC frequency with all its legal implications? We usually ended in getting an exempt together with a temporary issued frequency special for the event. In the papers to file for the temporary frequency there usually is a paragraph addressing the issue. The "smoke on" stories from speakers are typically special event frequencies.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi CH,

So you easily get an exemption with your temporary frequency?

That's all we want to do, broadcast our own 'chat' - we're not looking to stream LHR TWR...

Thanks, Sam.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You may wish to have someone with their hand on the switch throughout, rather than just turn it on and leave it, so that you can cut it immediately if something starts going wrong. Nobody would want their husband's (or whoever's) last scream broadcast to a field full of punters. Not saying this is necessarily a showstopper, but is something you should consider.

[Sam Rutherford]

We'd already considered that, including the 'standard' 7 second delay between reality and broadcast (not likely to be noticed by Joe Public).

Technically etc. it's all manageable/easy - I'm more interested in the legality of doing it. If the event-specific frequency can include permission then (in the UK at least) we're golden!

[chevvron]

The Sparrows seem to get away with it...

'Smoke on - GO!'

TOO
NO that's only their own discrete UHF air to air comms frequency; only one of them ever talks to ATC on a different frequency which can be VHF or UHF then relays any message to the rest on the air to air frequency eg at 2 minutes to end of display, the communicator (one of the singletons usually) will call ATC on the display frequency to request wind and formation landing clearance then he returns to the air to air frequency until he lands when he will request taxy instructions.

[chevvron]

Yes, I've understood that it's illegal in the UK - but has anyone every applied for an exemption. Perhaps at the same time as requesting an event-specific frequency?

For the technical aspects, I think that at source rebroadcast via wifi etc. to smartphones would work well and be perfectly understandable.

The CAA require that comms on the display frequency, even when it is a special one assigned for that event, are kept to the minimum necessary for safety so there shouldn't be very much to listen to on the display frequency, hence your idea won't be very interesting.
Having done 17 Farnborough Airshows plus a few other displays, I can assure you this is correct.

[treadigraph]

I recall Will Curtis commentating from his Su26 while performing at Biggin Hill, presumably on a temporary discreet frequency. I was quite impressed that he could talk fairly normally through lomcevaks and the like.

[Deltasierra010]

I recall Will Curtis commentating from his Su26 while performing at Biggin Hill, presumably on a temporary discreet frequency. I was quite impressed that he could talk fairly normally through lomcevaks and the like.

I'm sure it's possible but would be much easier with a syncronised recording or a ground commentator.
As for ground PA the Reds broadcast their display commands in real time, but they are just clipped instructions rather than a commentary.

[BEagle]

Just don't put the RAFAT R/T over the PA whilst they're landing - their puerile shouting and yelling is a total embarrassment....:=

I wasn't aware that A/A VHF 'chat' frequencies are available to civilian formation pilots. Is that something the CAA allocates?

[Dr Jekyll]

NO that's only their own discrete UHF air to air comms frequency; only one of them ever talks to ATC on a different frequency which can be VHF or UHF then relays any message to the rest on the air to air frequency eg at 2 minutes to end of display, the communicator (one of the singletons usually) will call ATC on the display frequency to request wind and formation landing clearance then he returns to the air to air frequency until he lands when he will request taxy instructions.

The legal position in the UK isn't that Joe Public can't listen to ATC specifically, but can't listen to anything except broadcasts or specified amateur/CB frequencies unless authorised. So the same rules apply to all military and civilian airband frequencies whether ATC or not.

I did seen an interesting argument that the organisers could 'authorise' spectators to listen, or are actually doing so if they publicise the relevant frequencies. Seems doubtful to me though.

[Sam Rutherford]

This is what Chevvron seems to be saying - that on the paperwork needed to request an 'event frequency' there's a part where you can simultaneously request permission to have the public listen to it?

[chevvron]

This is what Chevvron seems to be saying - that on the paperwork needed to request an 'event frequency' there's a part where you can simultaneously request permission to have the public listen to it?
I never sought to imply any such thing; sorry if you got that impression.
I have no knowledge of the paperwork involved as all my requests for extra frequencies for Farnborough were done by e-mail in the days before the application foms were introduced.
What I was trying to say was that the 'display' frequency should be so quiet it would be of no interest to any listeners other than those with a 'need' to listen ie Display director and controller.

[TheOddOne]

that on the paperwork needed to request an 'event frequency' there's a part where you can simultaneously request permission to have the public listen to it?

Not on SRG 1417 that I've been using for the past few years, there isn't. The 17-odd requests I make every year are for 'silent' frequencies, to be used only for essential safety comms. You have to prove a need for the frequency, so make out a safety case with your submission.

I've heard regular ATC re-broadcast over P.A. at a few events and I don't think it adds anything to the occasion. Enthusiasts will have scanners to enhance their particular interests. As with new flying students, more casual airshow attendees won't be able to make out what's going on. Better to employ an informed commentator (into wistful nostalgia mode with memories of John Blake, the very best of the best, with Raymond Baxter a close second).

TOO

[chevvron]

Not on SRG 1417 that I've been using for the past few years, there isn't. The 17-odd requests I make every year are for 'silent' frequencies, to be used only for essential safety comms. You have to prove a need for the frequency, so make out a safety case with your submission.

I've heard regular ATC re-broadcast over P.A. at a few events and I don't think it adds anything to the occasion. Enthusiasts will have scanners to enhance their particular interests. As with new flying students, more casual airshow attendees won't be able to make out what's going on. Better to employ an informed commentator (into wistful nostalgia mode with memories of John Blake, the very best of the best, with Raymond Baxter a close second).

TOO
If you go to the public viewing area at Holbeach Range (on The Wash), they sometimes play the RTF over a loudspeaker.

[Cunliffe]

I recall the ATC being played on the PA at the Sywell airshow a few years ago. A C130 made a low pass over the field and must have failed to spot the grass runway (in the days before the concrete strip). The C130 passed over the car park, setting off a cacophany of alarms, and then gave us a wonderful closeup view as it passed over the crowd. The frantic calls from the controller were certainly interesting. I thought at the time that it was all part of the display but surely it must have been a genuine error?

[Gonzo]

Sam,

Read the sticky in the ATC forum, on my phone now so difficult to link to it.

I think the assumption is that, if a frequency is ‘publicised’, as at an airshow etc, then it is ok....


You can only listen to other services if you have the permission of the sender. The air show is a good example where the control tower frequencies are publicised and that would be considered permission.