Isle of Man-2

[IOMX]

Easyjet have never had A318s, are you thinking of BAs one which does (pre CV-19) LCY > NYC, now that has very nice seats and cabin space, oops about £4500 one way fare though!

Sorry it was a typo Airbus 320 !

[sarnold]

Were Loganair not subsidised to be operating the lifeline LPL / MAN routes? I doubt they would have been operating at a loss for 3 months otherwise....

[IOMX]

Were Loganair not subsidised to be operating the lifeline LPL / MAN routes? I doubt they would have been operating at a loss for 3 months otherwise....
More than likely there was a subsidy but the point is they had the flexibility to do it and ensure the island had some sort of service . Similarly BA into London City /Heathrow. I can’t see EasyJet would have provided any form of service subsidy or no subsidy !

[M-JCS]

Agree with all you say. The difference is that Loganair is more of the 'old fashioned' carrier that realises it has a responsibility to the communities it serves, no doubt influenced by its services to the Scottish isles and other isolated airports, while easyJet has no responsibility but to itself. The responsibilities of a common carrier toward the community used to be enshrined in law. But that all appears to have been forgotten in the mad dash toward "deregulation" (whatever that means). And in the end, customers (excepting those for which price is everything) have a very long memory. So of the two airlines, which do you suppose has displayed the smarter marketing strategy?

[flyerguy]

easyJet were keen to begin flights on the 15th June but following conversation with the IOM government they decided not too.... it was a joint decision

[M-JCS]

It was a joint decision insofar as the government were involved, who put it to easyJet that IOM borders are staying closed except for transiting key workers and exceptional cases. Hardly the stuff of an 80% load factor, even on an A319.

[Mr Optimistic]

Someone always has to pay. Why should other easy passengers have to subsidise a loss making service. A consequence of lack of marketscale.

[JSCL]

Agree with all you say. The difference is that Loganair is more of the 'old fashioned' carrier that realises it has a responsibility to the communities it serves, no doubt influenced by its services to the Scottish isles and other isolated airports, while easyJet has no responsibility but to itself. The responsibilities of a common carrier toward the community used to be enshrined in law. But that all appears to have been forgotten in the mad dash toward "deregulation" (whatever that means). And in the end, customers (excepting those for which price is everything) have a very long memory. So of the two airlines, which do you suppose has displayed the smarter marketing strategy?

Rubbish. It's a business. Most of its' 'lifeline' Scottish routes are subsidised by the devolved Government. If it wasn't for that, they wouldn't do it for the good of it. Likewise here with their routes on the Island.

The problem they have is that due to the somewhat corrosive conditions of the air at the airport on those vintage E135/145's, they're swapping frames out every day or so via the ABZ-MAN flight. Whole different kettle of fish when you have a proper base that they'll have to give those considerations to.

Loganair saw an 'in' to the IOM after the BE collapse and took it. It's being heavily subsidised - HEAVILY - to keep those routes going. Now the patient transfer contract is up for tender, it's anyone's game. Whoever gets the PTS contract will take on the routes, that's an inevitability. I've no doubt that Loganair will expect their supposed 'goodwill' to be viewed favourably, but I understand that they aren't neccessarily considered the favoured option.

[M-JCS]

And the reason easyJet didn't get those subsidies on routes it already served? Both airlines are businesses, but customers with any intelligence at all realise that a product offering is something more than simple arithmetic. If I had to choose between the two carriers operating on the same route and similar timings I know which I would choose, and it wouldn't be easyJet. Who eventually gets the PTS contract is a matter of speculation at this point and may well involve a third airline.

[IOMX]

Someone always has to pay. Why should other easy passengers have to subsidise a loss making service. A consequence of lack of marketscale.

Maybe it’s because we live on an island and having some form of connectivity is ‘helpful ‘ for getting off the island . Ask those that have had to go to the North West for hospital treatment in the last 3 months what they think .

I maintain my view that EasyJet has a role but that it must not be seen as the only answer in any way shape or form . However if we continue in the way we are going it will be and that will be a disaster !

[Saabdriver1]

Rubbish. It's a business. Most of its' 'lifeline' Scottish routes are subsidised by the devolved Government. If it wasn't for that, they wouldn't do it for the good of it. Likewise here with their routes on the Island.

The problem they have is that due to the somewhat corrosive conditions of the air at the airport on those vintage E135/145's, they're swapping frames out every day or so via the ABZ-MAN flight. Whole different kettle of fish when you have a proper base that they'll have to give those considerations to.

Is there a reason for these ongoing anti-Loganair outpourings based on factually incorrect information?

The comment about the reason for 145s swapping every day is complete and utter tosh. There is a planned changeover every day as there is currently no Embraer 145 maintenance cover in IOM, unlike for the ATR which lives there and is maintained there, so swapping aircraft and crews from ABZ every day rotates both the aircraft and crews. There is some 145 cover going into place in IOM shortly so there will still be aircraft swaps but not daily.

Hardly any of the Scottish routes are subsidised. The Twin Otter and Islander services are, as is Dundee-London and Stornoway-Benbecula under PSOs for which anyone can bid. For the rest of the routes, if Loganair carries no passengers, it has no income.

You're just making this stuff up.

[JSCL]

Is there a reason for these ongoing anti-Loganair outpourings based on factually incorrect information?

The comment about the reason for 145s swapping every day is complete and utter tosh. There is a planned changeover every day as there is currently no Embraer 145 maintenance cover in IOM, unlike for the ATR which lives there and is maintained there, so swapping aircraft and crews from ABZ every day rotates both the aircraft and crews. There is some 145 cover going into place in IOM shortly so there will still be aircraft swaps but not daily.

Hardly any of the Scottish routes are subsidised. The Twin Otter and Islander services are, as is Dundee-London and Stornoway-Benbecula under PSOs for which anyone can bid. For the rest of the routes, if Loganair carries no passengers, it has no income.

You're just making this stuff up.

I mean, that information came from the powers that be at the airport, so what do you expect me to think? They're lying? If you read what I said, we were talking about 'lifeline' Scottish routes, which are subsidised.

In other news, Aurigny CEO on the Island meeting with Gov today to convince them to buy-in to Aurigny. They want to base aircraft here and serve LPL, MAN & LGW. Time will tell what the outcome of that is.

[inOban]

However LM have said that the numbers on their flights are currently uneconomic and they are looking for further support to maintain routes which did not previously require a PSO subsidy. They've suggested dropping APD for a year.

[Saabdriver1]

I mean, that information came from the powers that be at the airport, so what do you expect me to think? They're lying? If you read what I said, we were talking about 'lifeline' Scottish routes, which are subsidised.

Either which way, it's not true.....

Four routes out of probably 25 or 30 within Scotland are subsidised - haven't counted the Islander services within that. Many in the islands consider every route they've got as a lifeline.

[JSCL]

Either which way, it's not true.....

Four routes out of probably 25 or 30 within Scotland are subsidised - haven't counted the Islander services within that. Many in the islands consider every route they've got as a lifeline.

Please do read back through the context of my original post on this. It was in response to:
The difference is that Loganair is more of the 'old fashioned' carrier that realises it has a responsibility to the communities it serves, no doubt influenced by its services to the Scottish isles and other isolated airports, while easyJet has no responsibility but to itself.

My point is very much - Loganair is a business. If it wasn't for subsidy, it wouldn't be serving the very communities it supposedly 'cares' about. Although the ramblings about Laxey tartan going on a tail was most exciting.

Regarding swapping out of aircraft, if the airport are speaking to industry like that's a reason they're struggling to attract truly based operator then that's an airport issue.

[IOMX]

In other news, Aurigny CEO on the Island meeting with Gov today to convince them to buy-in to Aurigny. They want to base aircraft here and serve LPL, MAN & LGW. Time will tell what the outcome of that is.[/QUOTE]

Its a very interesting idea. However I don’t think LGW is the answer for London something more convenient providing quicker access into the heart of London such as LCY or LHR is needed in addition to EasyJet operating out of LGW .

[Saabdriver1]

Most of its' 'lifeline' Scottish routes are subsidised by the devolved Government.

If the definition of a lifeline route is that it's a PSO, then all of them are subsidised. The other routes aren't but many are seen as lifelines.

And yes Loganair is a business, but one that has a more social and community character to it than many.

[Albert Hall]

What would be the point of another operator flying to Gatwick in direct competition to easyJet but without the ability to keep fares at the same level without a presumably very large subsidy?

[JSCL]

What would be the point of another operator flying to Gatwick in direct competition to easyJet but without the ability to keep fares at the same level without a presumably very large subsidy?

Funnily the phrase I heard this morning was 'Aurigny makes more sense because they don't have to worry about making a profit'. It's scary.

[virginblue]

What would be the point of another operator flying to Gatwick in direct competition to easyJet but without the ability to keep fares at the same level without a presumably very large subsidy?

To have a guarantee that an outfit like easyJet do not close shop whenever it pleases them, leaving the islanders with no option at all?

[Albert Hall]

Definitely a double-edged sword. There's surely just as much of an argument that by setting up in direct competition with them, they'd be more likely to walk away than if they were the only one?

[virginblue]

Based on the amounf of moaning about easyJet on here, what would be the issue? Seems to be a case of the "having the cake and.."-dilemna.

[JSCL]

Based on the amounf of moaning about easyJet on here, what would be the issue? Seems to be a case of the "having the cake and.."-dilemna.

Indeed. Personally I have no beef with Easy and their flights, they're cost effective and convenient when needed. Especially when long hauling or overseas travelling.

If I need to get to London, I'd traditionally take BA to City. The problem with that has always been the early departure time for the last flight of the day. This may be part of the rationale behind a potential LCY originating flight with BA, if that does happen. I know many people that book City-IOM and then end up flying back to Gatwick in the evening as the City departure is just too early.

[pabely]

Didn't the evening LCY -》IOM leg used to depart at 20:00 or am I thinking of the good old days when I was a regular?

[JSCL]

Didn't the evening LCY -》IOM leg used to depart at 20:00 or am I thinking of the good old days when I was a regular?

If only. It departs 5:30/6pm usually as I recall.

[pabely]

I was looking at old e-tickets from 2016, I had in E-Mail which I kept because of unexpected canx and had to claim overnights in London from BA, used to then!

[pabely]

Return of more services.... (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=56854&headline=EasyJet%20now%20aiming%20for%20September%20return&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2020)

[Jenny Tails]

Very unlikely that either EZY or EIR will be back at EGNS before October/November.

[IOMX]

Very unlikely that either EZY or EIR will be back at EGNS before October/November.

Would not be a surprise and another example of EasyJet being of little help to the island .

No need to worry though as they have a great app as reported in an earlier post !

[allan1987]

Would not be a surprise and another example of EasyJet being of little help to the island .

No need to worry though as they have a great app as reported in an earlier post !

BFS-IOM flights have been delayed to the 2nd October

[jijpc]

I had an email yesterday cancelling an IOM-DUB flight due in September. It looks like Aer Lingus have now cancelled flights to IOM until at least 25/10. Nothing on sale for travel until then.

[Jenny Tails]

Loganair have taken over operation of IOM - London City from BA Cityflyer effective 13th September 2020.

Currently Mon-Fri and Sun with no Saturday ops.

[flyerguy]

Isle of Man papers talking about Aurigny starting IOM-London

[lfc84]

Isle of Man papers talking about Aurigny starting IOM-London
Indeed, Gatwick specifically

[lfc84]

Loganair have taken over operation of IOM - London City from BA Cityflyer effective 13th September 2020.

Currently Mon-Fri and Sun with no Saturday ops.
Only available to book until the end of October

[SeanM1997]

Indeed, Gatwick specifically

Heya - do you have a link at all as can't see anything online?

[lfc84]

Heya - do you have a link at all as can't see anything online?
This is the best online link I can find. Printed edition of the paper specifically states Gatwick

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/images/news/2020/89250284_89250005_Examiner.JPG

[JSCL]

This is the best online link I can find. Printed edition of the paper specifically states Gatwick

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/images/news/2020/89250284_89250005_Examiner.JPG

This has the potential to deliver a great degree of certainty for the Isle of Man's air routes going forward, but I'm not sure I understand the logic in serving Gatwick specifically. I'm sure they could W it with the GCI flights. I would have imagined that other new opportunities may exist, rather than chasing existing ones?

[SeanM1997]

This has the potential to deliver a great degree of certainty for the Isle of Man's air routes going forward, but I'm not sure I understand the logic in serving Gatwick specifically. I'm sure they could W it with the GCI flights. I would have imagined that other new opportunities may exist, rather than chasing existing ones?

Aurigny can't even make Guernsey routes profitable. The fact Isle of Man already have easyJet (BFS/BRS/LPL/LGW/LTN) and Loganair (EDI/LCY/LPL/MAN) means Aurigny will struggle on nearly all routes as there is a presence of competition. If they can't make their GCI operations profitable when they are the sole provider on most routes, I don't hold out much hope of the IOM network - but lets hope they can make it work

[JSCL]

Aurigny can't even make Guernsey routes profitable. The fact Isle of Man already have easyJet (BFS/BRS/LPL/LGW/LTN) and Loganair (EDI/LCY/LPL/MAN) means Aurigny will struggle on nearly all routes as there is a presence of competition. If they can't make their GCI operations profitable when they are the sole provider on most routes, I don't hold out much hope of the IOM network - but lets hope they can make it work

Isn't part of Aurigny's problem that they always choose to try and compete on existing r outes rather than going for new ones...?

[kcockayne]

Isn't part of Aurigny's problem that they always choose to try and compete on existing r outes rather than going for new ones...?
AUR’s problem is that there are not many, if any, new routes that they could operate from Guernsey which would support anything more than a summer weekend only operation.

[JSCL]

AUR’s problem is that there are not many, if any, new routes that they could operate from Guernsey which would support anything more than a summer weekend only operation.
Is that not further demonstration or why state owned airlines for GCI and possibly IOM will not work and actually would be better serviced by an operator with fleet flexibility to service the seasonal needs?

I'm not against Aurigny servicing the Isle of Man, but I'd be very cautious of what that relationship looked like. Loganair will do a much better job and as many here know, I'm not much a fan of them either.

[flyerguy]

Until the borders are relaxed further, any expansion on the island simply couldn’t work

[virginblue]

What's the point for Aurigny if they already lose money by operating from their home turf and need to be propped up by the public purse? The only reason could be that the Isle of Man will subsidise the route to an extent that it does not only break even, but generates a profit that, to some extent, can minimize the losses of the GCI operation. Otherwise those paying taxes on Guernsey will find it difficult to understand why their taxes are at work on the Isle of Man....

[JSCL]

What's the point for Aurigny if they already lose money by operating from their home turf and need to be propped up by the public purse? The only reason could be that the Isle of Man will subsidise the route to an extent that it does not only break even, but generates a profit that, to some extent, can minimize the losses of the GCI operation. Otherwise those paying taxes on Guernsey will find it difficult to understand why their taxes are at work on the Isle of Man....

Between what I know, have heard and have also read in other places: the Isle of Man Government are being asked to prop up Aurigny by a few million per year in return for air routes.

[Jenny Tails]

Talk of Aurigny setting up at EGNS is all very well. But with their draconian border restrictions in place it won't be happening any time soon.

Talking to a senior member of their 'Border Force' they are looking at late-March 2021 to ease their border rules. Bonkers.

[kcockayne]

This co-operation, if it turns out to be real, may well have come about due to the "air bridge" which AUR are operating between Guernsey & the IoM (both islands being covid free for a few months now). It might reflect some sort of gratitude to the airline on the part of Tynwald, or inter island co-operation. There has been a lot of travel between the 2 islands & it has fostered friendly (& sporting) relations between them, too. Don't run down AUR too much - it is not easy for them, even at the best of times ! If the Manx people & politicians want them to operate some routes on their behalf, good luck to them all. But, I can't see Gatwick working for them if EZY stay on the route.

[lfc84]

Talk of Aurigny setting up at EGNS is all very well. But with their draconian border restrictions in place it won't be happening any time soon.

Talking to a senior member of their 'Border Force' they are looking at late-March 2021 to ease their border rules. Bonkers.

Is that planning to move to Stage 3 late-March 2021 or is it planning to end up at Stage 1 by then ?

[Tonyq]

This has all the hallmarks of an ill-considered 'marriage of convenience' which will doubtless end in tears, acrimony and a big bill for the Manx Taxpayer.

[Tonyq]

Is that planning to move to Stage 3 late-March 2021 or is it planning to end up at Stage 1 by then ?

I don't think anyone knows. IOMG do not appear to have a clear exit strategy from the current situation.

[inOban]

I can see that the IOM hasn't had any cases since mid may, but there seems to be a steady trickle in the CI. Are they all on the other islands?

[KindaUnstuck]

I can see that the IOM hasn't had any cases since mid may, but there seems to be a steady trickle in the CI. Are they all on the other islands?

All cases are in Jersey, think they have about 10 active cases, however they have open borders with the UK, with testing on arrival. The passenger is able to roam the island freely for the 24 - 48 hours before their test results are known.
​​​​
Guernsey and it's islands have had no new cases for 117 days. The only place Guernsey had open boarders with is the Isle of Man.

Travel between Guernsey and Jersey requires the person to isolate for at least 7 days on arrival in Guernsey under the same rules as people arriving into Guernsey from the UK.

[kcockayne]

I can see that the IOM hasn't had any cases since mid may, but there seems to be a steady trickle in the CI. Are they all on the other islands?
Guernsey has not had any infections of Covid 19, nor any deaths, since April - there have been 16 deaths in all. They have been maintaining strict quarantine for all arrivals. Jersey has had 32 deaths - but only one since April/May. Jersey has been admitting arrivals from the UK subject to testing on arrival & a sort of self isolation until a negative result is received - normally 2 days. Arrivals from the continent are either required to test & isolate for 5 days - from an “amber” country , or 14 days if you arrive from a “red” country. As a result, we have 15 infected cases currently, of which a half are non-symptomatic. Nearly all of these are recent arrivals from the UK. The other islands have never had any infections or deaths.
If you want to keep the virus out, Guernsey has demonstrated to the world exactly how to do it !

[lfc84]

easyJet are currently selling seats on the LGW-IOM route resuming next Tuesday 1st Sept and also LPL-IOM route resuming Friday 4th.

[Tonyq]

easyJet are currently selling seats on the LGW-IOM route resuming next Tuesday 1st Sept and also LPL-IOM route resuming Friday 4th.

I'm sure that is true, but my flight LGW to IOM on 11th September was cancelled weeks ago.

To be honest, their whole booking, and booking management system, has been a shambles throught his whole period. I have two old bookings, for travel in July, and for which they have already given me a full refund, still showing as active and changeable on the App.

I am veryconcerned that IOMG are trying to be too smart, by cosying up to Aurigny, and will drive easyJet away, which will be very bad news for fares, choice and volume.

[JobsaGoodun]

I am very concerned that IOMG are trying to be too smart, by cosying up to Aurigny, and will drive easyJet away, which will be very bad news for fares, choice and volume.

I guess it depends on your definition of 'choice'? Since they came onto the LGW, BFS, BRS and LPL routes, EZY haven't offered the frequency of the airlines they replaced. This might be good for leisure customers but may be less positive for business.

[Alteagod]

I agree BHD and NI business is crying out for a double daily for IOM. EZY yes great for leisure not so for the business traveller

[Scl3k]

What about Stobart Air? Definitely one of the favorites I’d imagine. They have operated out of Isle of Man for over a decade under different brands. I wouldn’t be surprised if they fly under a Manx banner. There was a write up in the Irish Independent in May about them approaching the Manx government. I’m assuming they are still in the running as they have crew on the island twiddling their thumbs?

[Mr Optimistic]

I don't think anyone knows. IOMG do not appear to have a clear exit strategy from the current situation.
Haven't been able to visit family in IOM and would dearly like to go but can't put their household into quarantine. I reckon the IOM's exit strategy is clear enough but it's unrealistic and won't be workable. Next year's TT won't be able to go ahead unless IOMG do a u-turn. Reckon they'll explore testing before departure and other schemes before they either sacrifice the TT and other events or concoct a politically acceptable scheme which effectively lets the virus back on the island. Economics presses for the latter.

[JSCL]

Haven't been able to visit family in IOM and would dearly like to go but can't put their household into quarantine. I reckon the IOM's exit strategy is clear enough but it's unrealistic and won't be workable. Next year's TT won't be able to go ahead unless IOMG do a u-turn. Reckon they'll explore testing before departure and other schemes before they either sacrifice the TT and other events or concoct a politically acceptable scheme which effectively lets the virus back on the island. Economics presses for the latter.

I think they will do everything they possibly can to ensure TT happens next year

[allan1987]

I agree BHD and NI business is crying out for a double daily for IOM. EZY yes great for leisure not so for the business traveller

2 Times a week isn't much good. Eastern ran daily until 2 years a go on a JS41 from BHD?

[Jenny Tails]

2 Times a week isn't much good. Eastern ran daily until 2 years a go on a JS41 from BHD?
Yes they did! It received a tremendous amount of moaning from the Manx public about pricing.

With EZY now well established on the Island people have become accustomed to expecting fares to always be £21.99

[flyerguy]

EasyJet starting Manchester 26th of October 4 weekly in the winter increasing in the summer

[JSCL]

EasyJet starting Manchester 26th of October 4 weekly in the winter increasing in the summer

Any idea on schedules or where that news is?

[flyerguy]

Any idea on schedules or where that news is?

Was booking LPL-IOM and the option for Manchester came up. Only able to view on the App at the moment.

starting 26th October Monday, Thursday and Friday and slowly increasing

[flyerguy]

Seems like Aurigny now discussing GCI-MAN-IOM-MAN-GCI long term along with their LGW proposed route

https://twitter.com/bbcguernsey/status/1298554729535078401?s=21

[OC37]

Seems like Aurigny now discussing GCI-MAN-IOM-MAN-GCI long term along with their LGW proposed route

https://twitter.com/bbcguernsey/status/1298554729535078401?s=21

You'd think that they'd know that the IATA code for 'Guernsey Channel Islands' is GCI

[Manx]

You'd think that they'd know that the IATA code for 'Guernsey Channel Islands' is GCI

I wouldn't have thought that using the IATA code would rate particularly high when all they're trying to do is create an informative message that means something to many in a space limited space.
​​​​​​​

[flyerguy]

So if you look at what’s going on, the outlook for the next few months has gone from not much competition to quite a bit:

LPL: No Change in competition with 2 airlines operating albeit with lower seats - Loganair, EasyJet

MAN: Up from 1 airline to definitely 2 possibly 3 - Loganair, easyJet possibly Aurigny

London: 2 airlines possibly 3: LCY - Loganair, LGW - easyJet possibly Aurigny. (Summer sees LTN served by easyJet)

Frequency’s possibly need to be uplifted on the Liverpool Route also Manchester (dependent on border situation) and London may get regular flights with Aurigny (depending on which slots they will use, as this looks to be a slot sitting exercise)

[JSCL]

The net result will probably be less connectivity. I knew someone on LCY>IOM the other day and it was 'full', 30 bags had to be left behind in LCY. Not sure why it's so busy.

[lfc84]

easyJet are currently selling seats on the LGW-IOM route resuming next Tuesday 1st Sept and also LPL-IOM route resuming Friday 4th.

​​​​​​​restart delayed by a couple of weeks

[Tinwald]

Fellas, until the isolation rules are lifted, 80 peeps a day as are coming by air at the moment aren't going to keep anyone flying. Why do you think easy isnt committing to starting up anything? Big Chiefy Quayle needs to open things up - life is great here with no social distancing, no restrictions, no masks its life as we knew it except for getting back here.

[flyerguy]

This is what the current start date showseasyJet



Liverpool - 19 September 2020

London Gatwick- 17th September 2020

Bristol - 25 October 2020

Belfast - 26 October 2020

Manchester - 26 October 2020

London Luton - 28th March 2021



Aer Lingus



Dublin - 25th October (1st-24th Sold Out)



Loganair



Edinburgh- 14 September

London City - 1 September

[BAladdy]

Loganair

Edinburgh- 14 September

LM have removed for sale all EDI flights up to 2nd November

[CandyBender]

Nothing apart from the Loganair services underpinned by the IOM government, or the Aurigny airbridge, will be flying into Ronaldsway until border restrictions are relaxed. A Guernsey style 7 days isolation plus test, was talked about in July for implementation this month, but nothing has yet been announced - even then it would only be for IOM residents on a paid basis, unlike Guernsey. I'm not reading too much into Easyjet restart dates or proposed Aurigny routes just yet.....

[pabely]

Nothing apart from the Loganair services underpinned by the IOM government, or the Aurigny airbridge, will be flying into Ronaldsway until border restrictions are relaxed. A Guernsey style 7 days isolation plus test, was talked about in July for implementation this month, but nothing has yet been announced - even then it would only be for IOM residents on a paid basis, unlike Guernsey. I'm not reading too much into Easyjet restart dates or proposed Aurigny routes just yet.....
Guernsey style 7 days isolation plus £50 test starts Monday, don't expect a big rush in takers.

[lfc84]

Easyjet resumption is postponed

[pabely]

First EZY Liverpool I can find is Sat 14th Nov now

[allan1987]

It looks like at moment easyJet flights BFS-IOM has now been put back until 29th March 2021

[pabely]

And Tues 27th Oct for LGW

[CandyBender]

Guernsey style 7 days isolation plus £50 test starts Monday, don't expect a big rush in takers.

Guernsey at least is open to non residents.

[flyerguy]

Looks like easyJet are changing things slowly again, flights are showing in the system but not available to book - the next available flights to book are as follows

Liverpool - 14 December 2020

London Gatwick- 27th October 2020

Bristol - 29 March 2021

Belfast - 29 March 2021

Manchester - 14th December 2020

London Luton - 28th March 2021



Aer Lingus remains unchanged

Dublin - 25th October 2020



Loganair pushed back EDI by 2 months



Edinburgh- 2nd November 2020


Aurigny

Air Corridor to Guernsey ends 19th September 2020

No Update on LGW

[LGS6753]

Were EZY operating IOM-LTN pre-Covid?

[planedrive]

Were EZY operating IOM-LTN pre-Covid?

Yes, they started a couple of years ago

[pabely]

2017, before that Flybe & Aer Arran & BA!

[flyerguy]

Has the IOM come to an agreement over flights

Loganairs London City ends 30th October and Manchester and Liverpool 26th March 21

[SeanM1997]

Has the IOM come to an agreement over flights

Loganairs London City ends 30th October and Manchester and Liverpool 26th March 21

Not necessarily is all I can say on that

[RVF750]

This total mess is the direct result of Open Skies. Without this, we'd have a base and a set of aircraft here that could operate as many or as few flights as needed to match the frequency needed.

Instead. well, you get what was predicted years ago. Take a bow Tony Brown.

[BAladdy]

Has the IOM come to an agreement over flights

Loganairs London City ends 30th October and Manchester and Liverpool 26th March 21
EDI also not available to book passed Late March 2021

[flyerguy]

easyJet no flights to Liverpool available Monday/Wednesday throughout January

[flyerguy]

Changes to easyJet delaying Gatwick and removing Manchester flights from sale, Aer Lingus delaying until Q1 2021 and Loganair removing Edinburgh



easyJet



Liverpool - 18 December 2020



London Gatwick- 17 December 2020



Bristol - 29 March 2021



Belfast - 29 March 2021



Manchester - No Longer in Booking System



London Luton - 28th March 2021



Aer Lingus



Dublin - 21st January 2021


Loganair



Edinburgh- No Longer in Booking System



London City - Due to end 30th October, rumours of moving to London Heathrow 12x Weekly however not confirmed

[IOMX]

Something needs to be done urgently regarding the London market as it stands there are no flight options beyond the end of October. It is ridiculous that the island will not have any flights to/from London especially given during August nearly as many people flew the route with a once a day flight as Liverpool with a twice a day flight and patient transfers. Easyjet are not going to be seen for a long time yet so lets hope something is done to encourage Loganair to continue operating into London City or even better London Heathrow.

[lfc84]

Something needs to be done urgently regarding the London market as it stands there are no flight options beyond the end of October. It is ridiculous that the island will not have any flights to/from London especially given during August nearly as many people flew the route with a once a day flight as Liverpool with a twice a day flight and patient transfers. Easyjet are not going to be seen for a long time yet so lets hope something is done to encourage Loganair to continue operating into London City or even better London Heathrow.
increase the population and you will see BA A319

[Albert Hall]

^^^

Definitely in the running for most banal PPRuNe posting of the year award.

[flyerguy]

I feel that airlines are going to start getting bored of the IOM border rules and just remove flights until further notice. EasyJet are already doing it on their network on some routes I feel it’s only a matter of time

[milleriom]

I feel that airlines are going to start getting bored of the IOM border rules and just remove flights until further notice. EasyJet are already doing it on their network on some routes I feel it’s only a matter of time

As far as the great majority of Isle of Man residents are concerned we do not care at all about 'airlines starting to get bored' as you state in what sounds like some sort of attempt at pressure or other threat. What we do care about is successfully protecting our people in regard to this Covid19 virus. And so far we have had huge success in that. So what is your actual agenda flyerguy? Help the airlines at whatever human health cost?

[The96er]

As far as the great majority of Isle of Man residents are concerned we do not care at all about 'airlines starting to get bored' as you state in what sounds like some sort of attempt at pressure or other threat. What we do care about is successfully protecting our people in regard to this Covid19 virus. And so far we have had huge success in that. So what is your actual agenda flyerguy? Help the airlines at whatever human health cost?

Have you pesonally asked the opinion of all the IoM residents or are you just assuming that you speak on behalf of all the residents ?

[flyerguy]

As far as the great majority of Isle of Man residents are concerned we do not care at all about 'airlines starting to get bored' as you state in what sounds like some sort of attempt at pressure or other threat. What we do care about is successfully protecting our people in regard to this Covid19 virus. And so far we have had huge success in that. So what is your actual agenda flyerguy? Help the airlines at whatever human health cost?

Neither a threat nor speculation. The virus is going to be part of our everyday life for the foreseeable future. Economy’s in locked down areas such as the Island are going to start becoming weaker without connections to the outside world.

To say that that post was a threat when airlines are doing the same around the world is just ludicrous.

Airlines selling routes that keep getting put back are simply going to remove them all together so customers are not purchasing tickets and then having to refund back and forth

[flyerguy]

If residents are away and returning and then isolating for 14 days why isn’t this being rolled out to immediate friends and family. Just because people are resistants of the UK doesn’t mean their ‘superspreaders’. IATA figures show that the rate of transmission is extremely low. Add in the 14 days and they’d be minimal risk of transition into the general public.

[milleriom]

Have you personally asked the opinion of all the IoM residents or are you just assuming that you speak on behalf of all the residents ?

An unhelpful reply which adds nothing to the topic. Have you asked them yourself to give you grounds to challenge my statement?

You clearly have not even thought of asking the Isle of Man Government who actually do know the consensus views on this topic of the 85,000 or so residents. Had you done so you would be told the same thing I stated in my post that caused you such needless concern that you simply and rapidly lashed out questioning my remark. How clever was that I wonder. Or rather I do not need to wonder. Busy day ahead so I shall bid you goodnight and less needless purposeless anger now.

[milleriom]

Neither a threat nor speculation. The virus is going to be part of our everyday life for the foreseeable future. Economy’s in locked down areas such as the Island are going to start becoming weaker without connections to the outside world.

To say that that post was a threat when airlines are doing the same around the world is just ludicrous.

Airlines selling routes that keep getting put back are simply going to remove them all together so customers are not purchasing tickets and then having to refund back and forth

I do not disagree. I was merely trying to point out that the known clear majority views of the local residents heavily outweigh the financial interests of any airline on any given route from or to the Isle of Man.

For anyone to suggest that there is a connectivity and consequent economic problem for the island in the absence of Easyjet is entirely wrong. Easyjet (whom I like a lot and use frequently) are not essential to the island being the first discount airline ever to serve it and having done so only in recent years. The island is currently being served well by Loganair flights to London City six days per week (this route is believed to be transferring soon to Heathrow) London obviously being the key route for outbound and inbound business pax, Liverpool (double daily x 6 days) and Manchester six days per week) and a fast ferry to Liverpool centre from March to early November and traditional ferries double daily to Heysham or Birkenhead. The ferries also normally serve Belfast and Dublin seasonally.

[milleriom]

If residents are away and returning and then isolating for 14 days why isn’t this being rolled out to immediate friends and family. Just because people are resistants of the UK doesn’t mean their ‘superspreaders’. IATA figures show that the rate of transmission is extremely low. Add in the 14 days and they’d be minimal risk of transition into the general public.

And where would they isolate once they get here? In Covid-free households of the so-called immediate friends and family? BTW, what are 'immediate friends'? If you check the Island's wonderful record of community infections and deaths - you will understand why almost no-one here wants to put that at risk. The IOM Government is not going to change the border restrictions noticeably if at all for a considerable time and apart from a small minority the vast majority of our people support this fully.

[lfc84]

The IOM Government have elections next year so this will be a factor in any decisions they make. Furthermore, they won't open up whilst the situation in the north west of England is getting worse. I have a vague recollection that in one press briefing in the early days they stated the figure in their mind for uk infection rates. It's on gefthemongoose somewhere. The UK is way off that figure

[116d]

I will just say these two things: -

Firstly, if easyJet or anybody else pull a route until further notice, there’s no guarantee it will return as soon as it’s practical.

Secondly, the Isle of Man can’t keep the borders shut forever. Well they could, but what’s the economic cost of practically no tourism and no TT for more than one year? Guernsey folk travelling on the airbridge probably only brings a fraction of the tourism money the island would ordinarily expect to generate in normal times. I see the government recently announced an extension of support to businesses in the tourism sector until next March, which probably gives a clue as to how long borders are likely to remain closed.

I will conclude by simply saying the Manx Government needs to consider how to manage COVID besides keeping borders closed given this is sadly not going away anytime soon.

[lfc84]

The government said there are 8 ventilators. ICU is similar size. The covid ward still exists but is moth balled at present. They have virtually no wriggle room. Also any impact upon staff sickness has a knock on effect. The hospital is still catching up from the last lock down

[milleriom]

I will just say these two things: -

Firstly, if easyJet or anybody else pull a route until further notice, there’s no guarantee it will return as soon as it’s practical.

Secondly, the Isle of Man can’t keep the borders shut forever. Well they could, but what’s the economic cost of practically no tourism and no TT for more than one year? Guernsey folk travelling on the airbridge probably only brings a fraction of the tourism money the island would ordinarily expect to generate in normal times. I see the government recently announced an extension of support to businesses in the tourism sector until next March, which probably gives a clue as to how long borders are likely to remain closed.

I will conclude by simply saying the Manx Government needs to consider how to manage COVID besides keeping borders closed given this is sadly not going away anytime soon.

1. Subject to any specific restrictions on them under any agreement with the local authorities at each end airlines generally have the right to pull or reduce frequencies on a route or, subject to slots availability etc, to increase frequencies on a route
2. There will be no TT in 2021. Remember that, in this forum, you read this here first!

I fully understand the wishes (and obviously the financial plight) of airlines like easyjet and all those in aviation generally for restoring still suspended routes but in the case of the Isle of Man that is now only the Aer Lingus Regional single daily Dublin flight and the Easyjet daily Gatwick and Liverpool flights and the very low frequency Bristol, Belfast and Luton flights. Until there is a vaccine or things in the UK change dramatically for the better the demand is simply not there for any of those. And all of those routes have (admittedly much less convenient) alternatives by flights via Liverpool or Manchester or London or by ferries + trains ('boat trains') or ferries with a car.

I do not wish to upset anyone and I know that there are very strong feelings both in the island and in the UK for and against the restrictions - as they have varied and as they currently are - but the bottom-line is that stable consistent travel is not generally going to return to any significant extent until UK infection rates reduce greatly and that surely means a vaccine and / or people generally behaving in a manner compliant with the rules. In the UK huge nos are not so compliant and behave as if laws, rules and regulations are only applicable to others and not to themselves - hence the problem. And that is the sole reason why Liverpool & surrounds are now in level 3 restrictions with more to follow......................

When the IOM Government and our people read the UK statistics and about the women who organised a party for 100+ people, countless illegal raves and gatherings in many parts of the UK and flagrant disregard for social distancing, wearing of masks etc etc etc it is very much easier to understand the Isle of Man's restrictive decisions. And our people do understand.

There have been no large demonstrations or petitions against our Government's handling of air routes and related matters. And believe me we are a very strongly opinionated population!

And then there are the hugely important points made in the Post 605 above by lfc64 about our own Health Service capacity which sums up another key reason why the overwhelming bulk of our people support our Government's handling of this crisis. Indeed, our young Health Minister has just been awarded an MBE.

To advance your wishes you need to address your thoughts to the UK people. If it is too much for a very significant proportion of the UK population to act in a safe manner compliant with the laws, rules and regulations of their country then the rest of us can only now hope that an effective vaccine becomes available to all of us and as soon as possible.

Happy Wednesday to all!

[JSCL]

Have you pesonally asked the opinion of all the IoM residents or are you just assuming that you speak on behalf of all the residents ?

The latter, clearly.

[M-JCS]

You clearly have not even thought of asking the Isle of Man Government who actually do know the consensus views on this topic of the 85,000 or so residents.

That is a huge assumption in itself. The IOM Government have done nothing apart from closing the borders. Full stop. That is not dealing with the virus, that is running from it. There are parts of the UK that have infection rates comparable to those in the IOM. I fully expect that if such an attitude continues within the government, businesses will continue to leave for the simple reason that businesses need to conduct business on a daily basis, both on and off the IOM. That in itself is not a compelling scenario for any airline. By the way, the current population is about 83,000 and falling.

[lfc84]

That is a huge assumption in itself. The IOM Government have done nothing apart from closing the borders. Full stop. That is not dealing with the virus, that is running from it. There are parts of the UK that have infection rates comparable to those in the IOM. I fully expect that if such an attitude continues within the government, businesses will continue to leave for the simple reason that businesses need to conduct business on a daily basis, both on and off the IOM. That in itself is not a compelling scenario for any airline. By the way, the current population is about 83,000 and falling.
estate agents are reporting a lot of interest in property purchases from people off island, and houses selling within days. the speculation is that people are moving to the island to live normally

[Tinwald]

'the known clear majority views of the local residents'

'our people'

Just who the h..l do you think you are speaking on behalf of the IOM. Keep your head buried in your bunker, fella. Some of us are ready to get back into the world. If you're 71 and worried stay where you are but don't think you speak for 'our people'.

[milleriom]

'the known clear majority views of the local residents'

'our people'

Just who the h..l do you think you are speaking on behalf of the IOM. Keep your head buried in your bunker, fella. Some of us are ready to get back into the world. If you're 71 and worried stay where you are but don't think you speak for 'our people'.

I do not think that at all. It is our Government (which as mentioned above faces a General Election next year) that speaks on behalf of the people of the Isle of Man (and like it or not, yes that most certainly is ''our people'') and to date they have had some strict controls on the borders. It is patently absurd to suggest that they have done so in a manner that is inconsistent with the wishes of the majority of the ('our') people. If you do not like that then you can of course vote against the current incumbent(s) in your constituency next year should he/she/they stand again!

This is a sterile argument as the IOM Government's views on the matter since March remain consistently and abundantly clear and I support and praise that whether you do so or not.

[JSCL]

I do not think that at all. It is our Government (which as mentioned above faces a General Election next year) that speaks on behalf of the people of the Isle of Man (and like it or not, yes that most certainly is ''our people'') and to date they have had some strict controls on the borders. It is patently absurd to suggest that they have done so in a manner that is inconsistent with the wishes of the majority of the ('our') people. If you do not like that then you can of course vote against the current incumbent(s) in your constituency next year should he/she/they stand again!

This is a sterile argument as the IOM Government's views on the matter since March remain consistently and abundantly clear and I support and praise that whether you do so or not.

But your view does not represent the majority, even though you think it does.

It is difficult not to support what is currently going on. But the border situation is at breaking point. One which - from what I've seen - the population are getting incredibly tired of.

The election doesn't matter. HQ, LS and some of the big names we see today won't be standing next year. Nobody elected these people on the basis of doing what they've done. They were elected on other promises, all of which are irrelevant in respect of the current pandemic.

[milleriom]

But your view does not represent the majority, even though you think it does.

It is difficult not to support what is currently going on. But the border situation is at breaking point. One which - from what I've seen - the population are getting incredibly tired of.

The election doesn't matter. HQ, LS and some of the big names we see today won't be standing next year. Nobody elected these people on the basis of doing what they've done. They were elected on other promises, all of which are irrelevant in respect of the current pandemic.

Dear JSCL, of the hundreds of people I see or otherwise hear, no-one has said that ''the border situation is at breaking point'' so I am sure that the situation as at now is emphatically not ''One which - from what I've seen - the population are getting incredibly tired of''! One of us is wrong about the local majority view on the IOMG's travel restrictions and we shall just have to wait and see whether any firm clear evidence emerges in time to come as to which of us was mistaken about that at this time!

In the meantime I wish you, yours and everyone else very good health and much happiness.

Best wishes

milleriom

[Tonyq]

Dear JSCL, of the hundreds of people I see or otherwise hear, no-one has said that ''the border situation is at breaking point'' so I am sure that the situation as at now is emphatically not ''One which - from what I've seen - the population are getting incredibly tired of''! One of us is wrong about the local majority view on the IOMG's travel restrictions and we shall just have to wait and see whether any firm clear evidence emerges in time to come as to which of us was mistaken about that at this time!

In the meantime I wish you, yours and everyone else very good health and much happiness.

Best wishes

milleriom

I have no idea who you are, or why you have suddenly appeared on this forum, making wild, sweeping, unsubstantiated statements, and purporting to speak on behalf of the majority of the Isle of Man population.

Let me give you a reality check. You don't!

Yes, the IOMG have done some things well, but it is most definitely not a universal view that they have done everything well and it is clear that they do not have a credible exit strategy, ready to be implemented when the time is right (which it obviously isn't now).

I concur with JCSL that there are several elements of the borders policy which are clearly unsustainable, and many people are frustrated by where we are, and the lack of clarity about where we are heading.

Anyway, as this is an aviation forum, can I suggest you take your views to Manx Forums (www.manxforums.com) where you will definitely find people who are prepared to indulge in the kind of debate you seem to be looking for!

[Tinwald]

Well said Tonyq. Mr Miller should pop into the Albie and see how 'our people' react with his holier than thou attitude. My betting he's well retired with a nice fat pension happy to miss out on the cruises for a wee while.

[116d]

To advance your wishes you need to address your thoughts to the UK people.

Nope. My point about the Manx government needing to consider how they will deal with the virus beyond closing borders is aimed at the Manx government and still stands. Whilst I don't disagree that the behaviour of some people in the UK is appalling when it comes to the virus, this isn't the thread for it and, by the way, the decision to close the borders wasn't made by the UK and nor is it the UK that's keeping them closed.

I see Jersey introduced a testing system for all arrivals whereby you either get tested on arrival or you get a test done prior to travel. Is there a valid reason why a similar scheme can't be introduced in the Isle of Man?

As for no TT next year, that's a matter for the Manx government and what economic support they will have to stump up for losing that for the second consecutive year along with lack of tourism. The hole this will leave in the government coffers will need to be filled somehow. How do Manx folk feel about having to pay more tax?

I agree with Tonyq that although now isn't the time to ease things, there's no clarity about what's next and what the timescales are. For example, when Mr Quayle said over a month ago that he would only consider easing border restrictions when cases in the UK was at 1 in every 5,000 people (or something like that), it was new information to me and looking back at news articles, it wasn't made clear at the time when the border levels were announced. From afar, it sounds as though strategy is being made up as they go along. I know it was announced that they may consider easing things to allow immediate family to return over Christmas, but I'm not confident it will come to that and I suspect it was made partly to appease those calling for restrictions to be eased and being mindful Christmas is coming.

[Jenny Tails]

It's crazy that you people are even having that discussion.

People from practically anywhere else on the planet would give their right arm to be able to live in (relative) normality.

[lfc84]

It's crazy that you people are even having that discussion.

People from practically anywhere else on the planet would give their right arm to be able to live in (relative) normality.

As much as I would love to take a trip abroad, I agree. It can wait.

[Jenny Tails]

As much as I would love to take a trip abroad, I agree. It can wait.

That is certainly a sentiment shared with others that I have spoken to who live on your island.

I'd be very careful of your current Covid-free status. It certainly sounds like there are people (JCSL et al) that would sell you out for their share of silver coins.

There is no 'long term planning' for any country until the virus subsides globally and that is a few years off.

[JSCL]

That is certainly a sentiment shared with others that I have spoken to who live on your island.

I'd be very careful of your current Covid-free status. It certainly sounds like there are people (JCSL et al) that would sell you out for their share of silver coins.

There is no 'long term planning' for any country until the virus subsides globally and that is a few years off.
I’ll be frank, I have travelled off the Island only a matter of weeks ago and travelled to four other countries (including the UK), then completed my self isolation period. It was very interesting to see different approaches to the virus and more than ever, makes me think the IOM should align itself less with the UK and how the situation goes there, compared to what I’ve seen elsewhere. Everywhere other than the UK actually had the feeling of normality, bar the obvious limitations regarding mask usage in certain scenarios and settings. Not like that which I have become accustomed to, but not far from it.

I think outside of the older population, most folk are starting to see that whilst this current situation is a benefit to living in this great Island, it has also shown how small the place can feel. It’s not a matter of selling out, but a more thought out approach to facilitating certain types of travel with a more rigorous testing regime. You cannot think only about the here and now, but must think ahead and beyond the virus.

[Mr Optimistic]

Nobody is selling anyone out, it's just a reflection of the diverse variety of opinion. Language is important. My brother in Laxey certainly has his concerns about the absence of an exit strategy. It is not sensible to base everything on the availability of an effective vaccine any time soon. Given that European countries went into lockdown, look at ther situation now. The IoM will one day face the same situation with a virus naive population and very limited hospital resources so what's the plan and what is the maximum tolerable commercial loss?

[lfc84]

Some of you talk about the abscence of an exit strategy. The next step has already been defined.

https://gefthemongoose.com/blog/iomgovupdate30july?rq=Infection

BORDERS MOVE FROM 4 TO 3 IF UK HAS AN INFECTION RATE OF 1 IN 5,000

[Tinwald]

From afar, it sounds as though strategy is being made up as they go along.

:= And what's wrong with that fella. That's how everything works over here. :ok:

[Jenny Tails]

:= And what's wrong with that fella. That's how everything works over here. :ok:


And you think BoJo and Co. have a carefully thought out plan?

[Jenny Tails]

My reason for checking in on the EGNS thread was actually that I'd heard murmurings of LS looking to operate there next year as they are with EGJJ. It appears that has been answered with the borders discussion

[Tinwald]

Jenny fella-ess, Fort Knox would be a walk-in compared to here.

[flyerguy]

I simply post that I’m surprised airlines keep putting dates back and and why they are not just simply removing all from sale due to the border ‘dispute’ we will call it based on what I’ve seen. Next someone will suggest that the Isle of Man will leave the U.K. just to put icing on the cake

[manx crab]

I simply post that I’m surprised airlines keep putting dates back and and why they are not just simply removing all from sale due to the border ‘dispute’ we will call it based on what I’ve seen. Next someone will suggest that the Isle of Man will leave the U.K. just to put icing on the cake

Cannot leave what you are not part of

[flyerguy]

Cannot leave what you are not part of

I should have stated ‘fully’ leave the U.K. and become solely independent.

[milleriom]

I’ll be frank, I have travelled off the Island only a matter of weeks ago and travelled to four other countries (including the UK), then completed my self isolation period. It was very interesting to see different approaches to the virus and more than ever, makes me think the IOM should align itself less with the UK and how the situation goes there, compared to what I’ve seen elsewhere. Everywhere other than the UK actually had the feeling of normality, bar the obvious limitations regarding mask usage in certain scenarios and settings. Not like that which I have become accustomed to, but not far from it.

I think outside of the older population, most folk are starting to see that whilst this current situation is a benefit to living in this great Island, it has also shown how small the place can feel. It’s not a matter of selling out, but a more thought out approach to facilitating certain types of travel with a more rigorous testing regime. You cannot think only about the here and now, but must think ahead and beyond the virus.

I could not agree with you more. ''A more rigorous testing regime'' has been wholly absent here in the Isle of Man. The brilliant Rachel Glover is the expert in molecular ecology, bio-surveillance, bioinformatics and genomics who found some old disused testing equipment at Noble's and got it back up-and-working thereby providing the locally based testing facilities which have been of such very great benefit to the island. She is seriously furious at the IOMG's hugely inadequate scope of its testing regime. She has gone on record now with some of her anger and at yesterday's IOMG Press Conference the Health Minister tried to address her complaints but it sounded as if he really failed to do that. You can see some of Rachel's views on this here (see her posts on 8 & 13 October 2020): https://twitter.com/rachomics?lang=en

I am going to be away from more than occasional very limited online access for the next couple of days so I shall just wish everyone a very good weekend. Stay well.

[116d]

That is certainly a sentiment shared with others that I have spoken to who live on your island.

I'd be very careful of your current Covid-free status. It certainly sounds like there are people (JCSL et al) that would sell you out for their share of silver coins.

With respect, discussions and critique about what the Isle of Man are doing (or not doing) is not calling for them to sell out. I'm sure there are people both on and off the island who would like some clarity about what the next steps are. I could give you some examples about how my extended family have been impacted so far because of the border situation and what's on the line next year, but I won't.

Timescales, even if they are loaded with conditions, would help a lot of people plan for the future.

[116d]

Some of you talk about the abscence of an exit strategy. The next step has already been defined.

https://gefthemongoose.com/blog/iomgovupdate30july?rq=Infection


I noted that a while ago, hence my comment criticising the government for making it up as they go along because I don't recall that figure being quoted when they first announced the stages. On current form, it will be many months before infection rates are at the point where, by their own measures, they will consider easing things further.

We were due to be over there this Christmas, however I'm already working to the assumption it's not going to happen and not even booked any travel. It took me over 6 weeks to get a refund from easyJet for a cancelled trip back in May and only within the last fortnight we received a refund from Virgin Holidays for a cancelled US trip in September. I'm currently very reluctant to part with my cash to travel anywhere whilst there's no guarantees it will happen and for as long as the goalposts on quarantine rules for arrivals into the UK continue to be changed at short notice.

[116d]

I could not agree with you more. ''A more rigorous testing regime'' has been wholly absent here in the Isle of Man. The brilliant Rachel Glover is the expert in molecular ecology, bio-surveillance, bioinformatics and genomics who found some old disused testing equipment at Noble's and got it back up-and-working thereby providing the locally based testing facilities which have been of such very great benefit to the island. She is seriously furious at the IOMG's hugely inadequate scope of its testing regime. She has gone on record now with some of her anger and at yesterday's IOMG Press Conference the Health Minister tried to address her complaints but it sounded as if he really failed to do that. You can see some of Rachel's views on this here (see her posts on 8 & 13 October 2020): https://twitter.com/rachomics?lang=en

I am going to be away from more than occasional very limited online access for the next couple of days so I shall just wish everyone a very good weekend. Stay well.

It looks like you and I may be more aligned on our thoughts about all this than I initially gave you credit for.

My take is if the testing regime was more comprehensive, the island will be much better prepared if/when COVID transmission in the community returns. From afar, I do get the impression there's an element of complacency due to the borders being practically closed and a near-normal summer being possible thanks to social distancing protocols being binned back 4 months ago. Additionally, if similar islands such as Jersey can implement testing schemes to allow some sort of normality of movement on/off the island. then it's surely not beyond the Isle of Man's capabilities to implement something similar if they really wanted. Many places elsewhere are learning to live with the virus until it either burns out or a vaccine comes along. It's in the Isle of Man's interests to be able to do likewise. Dr Glover is right when she tweeted that the island can't completely keep it out (see events over the last 6 weeks), but it can be managed, as well as making the point that instead of using data from the UK the government can make decisions using their own data.

[milleriom]

Well said Tonyq. Mr Miller should pop into the Albie and see how 'our people' react with his holier than thou attitude. My betting he's well retired with a nice fat pension happy to miss out on the cruises for a wee while.

Sorry Tinwald, but you are wrong on both counts. And I am very busy so not interested in taking up the suggestion to 'pop into the Albie' nor any other pub!

You will see above and below that the discussion in which I have partly participated has moved along to focus more now on the specific topic of testing regimes or rather the lack thereof.

I hope that you approve of what 116D and I are saying.

[milleriom]

It looks like you and I may be more aligned on our thoughts about all this than I initially gave you credit for.

My take is if the testing regime was more comprehensive, the island will be much better prepared if/when COVID transmission in the community returns. From afar, I do get the impression there's an element of complacency due to the borders being practically closed and a near-normal summer being possible thanks to social distancing protocols being binned back 4 months ago. Additionally, if similar islands such as Jersey can implement testing schemes to allow some sort of normality of movement on/off the island. then it's surely not beyond the Isle of Man's capabilities to implement something similar if they really wanted. Many places elsewhere are learning to live with the virus until it either burns out or a vaccine comes along. It's in the Isle of Man's interests to be able to do likewise. Dr Glover is right when she tweeted that the island can't completely keep it out (see events over the last 6 weeks), but it can be managed, as well as making the point that instead of using data from the UK the government can make decisions using their own data.

Thank you and well said. I totally agree with all that you say in the para above.

[milleriom]

I have no idea who you are, or why you have suddenly appeared on this forum, making wild, sweeping, unsubstantiated statements, and purporting to speak on behalf of the majority of the Isle of Man population.

Let me give you a reality check. You don't!

Yes, the IOMG have done some things well, but it is most definitely not a universal view that they have done everything well and it is clear that they do not have a credible exit strategy, ready to be implemented when the time is right (which it obviously isn't now).

I concur with JCSL that there are several elements of the borders policy which are clearly unsustainable, and many people are frustrated by where we are, and the lack of clarity about where we are heading.

Anyway, as this is an aviation forum, can I suggest you take your views to Manx Forums (www.manxforums.com) where you will definitely find people who are prepared to indulge in the kind of debate you seem to be looking for!

Thank you for your unsolicited advice Tony but as we do not live in a tyrannical country I shall continue to exercise my uninterrupted lifetime habit of taking my opinions to anywhere that I choose to take them - entirely uninfluenced by your own views on where I should take them!

[Jenny Tails]

Timescales, even if they are loaded with conditions, would help a lot of people plan for the future.

I belive they have already been given. When the UK infection levels drop to 1 in 5000 people.

[JSCL]

I belive they have already been given. When the UK infection levels drop to 1 in 5000 people.
I've said it before and I'll say it again to anyone: a policy based on the UK is destined for long term pains here.

It is not the only place we do business with or where residents have families. There needs to be a strategy for opening up to other jurisdictions and supporting the respective travel links.

[Tinwald]

Thanks JSCL.

And Mr Miller, you sound as pompous, arrogant and patronizing in your last post as you did in your first.

[milleriom]

Thanks JSCL.

And Mr Miller, you sound as pompous, arrogant and patronizing in your last post as you did in your first.
And you don't?

[116d]

I belive they have already been given. When the UK infection levels drop to 1 in 5000 people.

With respect, that's not a timescale. It comes across as more of a convenient way of avoiding having to address the issue but sold to the public as a threshold for considering easing things. Based on current rates here, it's going to be many months before it gets to that figure unless something else crops up before then that would make them feel comfortable with easing the border. Testing being one of them. Like I said the other day, I think we can forget Christmas travel already despite Mr Quayle's words the other way about splitting Phase 3 to allow immediate family to travel.

Also note how they use 1 in 5,000 people when infection rates in the UK and other countries are being measured per 100k people.

As JSCL says, on the point of the borders the Manx government need to avoid basing their policy on how things are going in the UK. Even though the majority of movements on/off the island are to/from "across", there's a wider world beyond the UK itself. Also the UK could be doing things such as testing a lot better. The good people of the Isle of Man have the independence to do their own thing and literally show us and the world how it should be done.

[lfc84]

With respect, that's not a timescale. It comes across as more of a convenient way of avoiding having to address the issue but sold to the public as a threshold for considering easing things. Based on current rates here, it's going to be many months before it gets to that figure unless something else crops up before then that would make them feel comfortable with easing the border. Testing being one of them. Like I said the other day, I think we can forget Christmas travel already despite Mr Quayle's words the other way about splitting Phase 3 to allow immediate family to travel.

Also note how they use 1 in 5,000 people when infection rates in the UK and other countries are being measured per 100k people.

As JSCL says, on the point of the borders the Manx government need to avoid basing their policy on how things are going in the UK. Even though the majority of movements on/off the island are to/from "across", there's a wider world beyond the UK itself. Also the UK could be doing things such as testing a lot better. The good people of the Isle of Man have the independence to do their own thing and literally show us and the world how it should be done.

It sounds like you have just made the case for direct flights to Europe. Specifically where the rate is around 20 per 100,000

It sounds like the Manx Border Force will have a role to play: https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/border-force-could-be-here-in-seven-months/

[Jenny Tails]

Do people seriously expect timescales to be set for the virus? Does it have a pocket watch to keep track of how it should be progressing?

[RVF750]

It's just refreshing that HQ can make an announcement and use a proper fraction. 1 in 5,000 is more correct than 20 in 100,000. Sorry, I'm a bit bored stuck in permanent self isolation, as is anyone that has the curse of having to commute on and off Island for work.

[LGS6753]

1 in 5,000 is more correct than 20 in 100,000

....or are they exactly the same?

[RVF750]

....or are they exactly the same?
One is a Proper Fraction, the other is not. But yes, in our dumbed down modern world they are the same.

[Mr Optimistic]

Perhaps it's just because giving numbers per 100000 seems to be the norm and sticking with that allows easy comparison. Nothing dumb about it is there?

[lfc84]

From Manx Radio

The air bridge with Guernsey has been suspended, after a 'contained community outbreak', with 7 active cases on 'unknown origin' in the Bailiwick.
Those coming back from Guernsey will have to self-isolate for 14 days on their return.
No changes to self-isolation rules though.
The suspension will be reviewed when the situation is deemed safe.
Government will update travel advice for residents who are already in Guernsey, or booked to travel with Aurginy tomorrow.

[flyerguy]

It does make you think, when on earth will the U.K. be opened up to the IOM... when the cases reach 0? I do feel that if the IOM doesn’t open up early 2021 then not only will TT be cancelled or with no spectators from outside the island and all teams/riders on the island self isolating. Then who knows how this will affect businesses on the island

[lfc84]

It does make you think, when on earth will the U.K. be opened up to the IOM... when the cases reach 0? I do feel that if the IOM doesn’t open up early 2021 then not only will TT be cancelled or with no spectators from outside the island and all teams/riders on the island self isolating. Then who knows how this will affect businesses on the island
1 in 5,000 has been stated. Not zero !

[Jenny Tails]

It does make you think, when on earth will the U.K. be opened up to the IOM... when the cases reach 0? I do feel that if the IOM doesn’t open up early 2021 then not only will TT be cancelled or with no spectators from outside the island and all teams/riders on the island self isolating. Then who knows how this will affect businesses on the island

The UK is currently open to the IOM. It is the IOM which is closed to the UK.

The Island economy seems to be thriving with many pubs and restaurants able to operate to full capacity thanks to no social distancing.

It really seems that only travel and hotels are adversely affected. Which when compared to the rest of the British Isles isn't much different

[flyerguy]

1 in 5,000 has been stated. Not zero !

If Guernsey is shut off with 7 cases in 67000 makes you think.

[kcockayne]

Guernsey has taken a very tough & controlling line with Covid, right from the beginning ; & it cannot be denied that it has paid off - at least from the containment of the virus aspect - but they have greatly endangered the economy in the process. They relaxed the restrictions very slightly, & suddenly got seven cases where there had been zero for several months. So, they have shut up shop again. Are they correct to do so ? Who on earth knows ?
I should add that Jersey has taken a more relaxed attitude & let in travellers since June, with a test on arrival. We now have eighty cases - but they are identified & controlled pretty much instantaneously - & the economy is, apparently, in a better shape than Guernsey’s. You pay your money & you take your chances !

[Mr Optimistic]

The UK is currently open to the IOM. It is the IOM which is closed to the UK.

The Island economy seems to be thriving with many pubs and restaurants able to operate to full capacity thanks to no social distancing.

It really seems that only travel and hotels are adversely affected. Which when compared to the rest of the British Isles isn't much different

I think the point trying to be made is that isolation has impacted the economy and when the border does reopen you will have a disproportionate impact on both the economy and the limited hospital capacity. Time will tell but I am not convinced your assessment of the economic impact can be accepted with confidence. If you have access to government assessments or some other insights I apologise.

[116d]

The UK is currently open to the IOM. It is the IOM which is closed to the UK.

The Island economy seems to be thriving with many pubs and restaurants able to operate to full capacity thanks to no social distancing.

It really seems that only travel and hotels are adversely affected. Which when compared to the rest of the British Isles isn't much different

Being able to operate at full capacity and actually filling that capacity are two different things. There are a lot of establishments on the island that are reliant on the tourist trade to boost takings above what they generate from locals, some more than others. A lot of establishments would have taken a hit this year thanks to their spring lockdown and, more crucially, no TT trade.

Another industry not considered here is the events industry. Lots of weddings have been cancelled this year due to the lockdown and then those that would have had people travelling to the island being unable to do so. If this carries on into next year, expect more weddings to be postponed or cancelled.

Let's not underestimate the hit this virus and the closed borders are having on the economy there. I do think Jersey are showing how it can be done if the will is there.

[flyerguy]

easyJet London Gatwick now pushed back until 2nd February 2021, Liverpool still showing 14th December however expect this to be pushed back also.

[LGS6753]

Loganair looking at IOM-LHR route:

https://ukaviation.news/loganair-eyes-heathrow-to-isle-of-man-route/

[flyerguy]

Loganair looking at IOM-LHR route:

https://ukaviation.news/loganair-eyes-heathrow-to-isle-of-man-route/

They got the slots a while back for I think it was 12x Weekly flights 2 Mon-Fri 1 Sat/Sun. CEO of loganair did an interview last week and said they’d only begin as part of a broader agreement with the IOM Government.

[flyerguy]

easyJet LPL changed again by the looks of it.

Operating 21/24/27/28/31 December
No flights in January
‘Normal’ ops from February

In my opinion I don’t think we will see any EZY ops into the IOM until March 21 as the earliest

[pabely]

So where would a IOM LHR route leave the IOM LCY route?

[ericlday]

Probably just after Bovingdon

[Fly757X]

So where would a IOM LHR route leave the IOM LCY route?

Looks like it’ll be axed as Loganair have previously been reluctant to add LCY for long periods, thus allowing them to change over fairly promptly.

[pabely]

I still think there is a market for LCY though, depends on the Gaming companies whether they want City or connections, probally both! When I used to commute, LCY was always great but office was a couple of stops up DLR.

[flyerguy]

So where would a IOM LHR route leave the IOM LCY route?

It’s currently scheduled to end at the end of November

[flyerguy]

Update on the IOM-LGW easyJet. EZY have been granted more slots at LGW to operate an increased LGW-IOM service.

[Flightrider]

For Summer 2021, they're holding 2 pairs of slots for IOM-LGW every day except Tuesday when (surprisingly) it's 3. Apart from that extra Tuesday flight, is that an increase?

[Jenny Tails]

Awarding of a new Isle of Man patient transport contact is imminent.

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 v ☘

[flyerguy]

The hopes for IOM-LHR have hit a brick wall it seems as Loganair have been denied slots at LHR for S21

[PAXboy]

LHR must be feeling optimistic! I'd expect that there would be gaps as not all the long haul traffic will be back. Unless they have an even longer queue of requets from LGW.

[Albert Hall]

Just posted this across on the MME thread, but exactly the same applies for IOM-LHR.

It was always highly unlikely that anyone was going to get LHR slots for Summer 2021 right from the off.

For Winter 2020, those airlines like Rwandair, Ukraine, China Airlines and Eastern who secured slots have been given these without grandfather rights attached. As the "use it or lose it" rule has been suspended through a slot waiver, airlines at Heathrow can hand back their slots but still protect their long-term access to them. Those slots are then being handed out on a short-term basis.

For Summer 2021, it is not clear whether there will be any change to the use it or lose it rule. Every airline has reclaimed the slots to which they hold grandfather rights and so Heathrow (as of now) is technically full for Summer 2021. Of course, there will be a lot of airlines either hoping for a slot waiver or going into deals with other airlines to babysit slots for them. None of those will be visible at this point in time.

What you see now and where things end up for Summer 2021 LHR slots will be two very different pictures.

[lfc84]

slots secured

Loganair slots at Heathrow | News | (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=59153&headline=Loganair%20slots%20at%20Heathrow&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2020&cat=Transport)

Loganair has secured slots at London Heathrow airport in readiness for a new service to the Isle of Man.

The Scottish regional airline was understood to be in talks with the island’s government, which is considering whether the taxpayer should foot the bill for daily flights to Britain’s biggest airport until the border reopens.

A spokesman for Loganair told the Manx Independent: ’Loganair has been able to secure slots at Heathrow to reinstate services between the Isle of Man and London Heathrow.

’It remains engaged in discussions with the Isle of Man Government, which is supporting the island’s air services through the period of reduced travel demand as borders remain closed for general travel, about plans to launch the service.’

This week’s Examiner reported that speculation about Heathrow was revived after people said they were unable to book flights to London City airport in December on the Loganair website.

UK Aviation News reported that if approved the service to Heathrow is expected to begin soon.

[flyerguy]

slots secured

Loganair slots at Heathrow | News | (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=59153&headline=Loganair%20slots%20at%20Heathrow&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2020&cat=Transport)

Loganair has secured slots at London Heathrow airport in readiness for a new service to the Isle of Man.

The Scottish regional airline was understood to be in talks with the island’s government, which is considering whether the taxpayer should foot the bill for daily flights to Britain’s biggest airport until the border reopens.

A spokesman for Loganair told the Manx Independent: ’Loganair has been able to secure slots at Heathrow to reinstate services between the Isle of Man and London Heathrow.

’It remains engaged in discussions with the Isle of Man Government, which is supporting the island’s air services through the period of reduced travel demand as borders remain closed for general travel, about plans to launch the service.’

This week’s Examiner reported that speculation about Heathrow was revived after people said they were unable to book flights to London City airport in December on the Loganair website.

UK Aviation News reported that if approved the service to Heathrow is expected to begin soon.

So far they’ve only got ‘slots’ even though there not technically for the W20/21 period. S21 remains at nil currently

[simoncorbett]

I saw Loganair listed in slot requests for flights to Birmingham ?

[Albert Hall]

So far they’ve only got ‘slots’ even though there not technically for the W20/21 period. S21 remains at nil currently

Flyerguy, the way in which the slots are allocated means that they are - just like any other slot - a permission to operate. It's exactly the same for MME-LHR and several Chinese services which are running at LHR at the moment - these don't have the usual grandfather rights to base an operation for W21 around though.

I saw Loganair listed in slot requests for flights to Birmingham ?

They applied at BHX in S21 for services to ABZ, INV and IOM.

[JSCL]

Loganair have secured use of slots from another operator to operate beyond W21 and the Government will underwrite the route until the borders reopen.