Checklists -- a load of tosh

[QDMQDMQDM]

Lazy day. All the patients appear to have sodded off to the beach, so...

What do people think about checklists for the very simple aircaft we mostly fly in this forum? Personally, I think they're dangerous because they decrease your cockpit awareness. They make you go through actions in rote fashion without necessarily thinking about what you're doing.

In my latter years of flying previously, I gave up with checklists. Coming back to flying this year in a Super Cub my instructor, while acknowledging the absurdity, made me make up a checklist to use to satisfy the exam requirements. I found it distracting and anxiety-provoking because I could go through it without thinking. Since passing the test I've gone back to a left to right pre-flight check of the cockpit and am much happier.

In fact, said instructor -- 50 years in flying and still very much alive -- rarely uses a checklist himself, even up to some reasonably heavy stuff.

Throw off your checklists!

QDM

[ETOPS773]

They are a usefull safety net for low hour pilots who might make mistakes / forget something if they weren`t there,please don`t discourage them!!!
Personally know all the landing / after takeoff checks off by heart (save alot of frantic flicking through pages when downwind in a tricky crosswind gettting blown about)just the startup and run up checks I look up.

[Reichman]

QDM

You're treading on very dodgy ground there mate. Aircraft manufacturers/operators compile checklists for a very good reason. One very good reason is that one aircraft can be very similar to another one but can have totally different systems ie Piper Cherokee family. I would wager that EVERY pilot who's ever landed wheels up wished he'd stuck to a check list - no matter how simple or noddy.

Contrary to what you might think about checklists being a hinderance to your flying, used correctly and they free up a lot of capacity. The reason why it's always a good idea to commit certain parts of the checklist to memory (engine fire/failure) is that you don't have to think about what you are doing, you do it automatically whilst leaving all that unused capacity to deal with FLYING THE AIRCRAFT. Another reason is that it stops those embarrassing situations like trying to taxi clear of the runway with the wheels tucked neatly in the wells.

Give it a bit more thought next time.

[a pilot]

The other day I was doing my biannuaal flt review,I told the CFI that using the checklist in the pattern at a busy airport is dangerous,why did they try to teach this way...god knows...

[bcfc]

I use a checklist for the external and pre-/post-start stuff but have tried to commit to memory the inflight & emergency stuff.

I just wonder if/when I every try a retractable, I'll sail through the "Brakes off, undercarriage down..." bit on downwind and not actually do anything, just like I do in my 172.

I'll always keep a checklist with me and annotate it with my own personal bits.

[QDMQDMQDM]

I'm not saying never use them, just that in relatively simple aircraft I feel they can hinder more than they help. It feels stupid to be using one in a Super Cub, or even a C 172. It encourages mindless flying.

You can go through a written checklist without thinking at all about what you've done. It's like that feeling of leaving the house and then wondering if you've locked the door. In the end, you always have, but you can't remember doing it. I never have that feeling if I do a left to right cockpit check of all the relevant bits and bobs.

Anyway, I knew this would draw some response. ;)

QDM

[Field In Sight]

A recent thread "digressed" into a discussion on this very subject.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53524&highlight=checklist+memory+ppl

[VORTIME]

if you think that's bad - I was flying yesterday

Fuel on & sufficent....I was reading, not checking. After I tried to start without the master I realised!!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Oh boy QDM:

You are really going to have a lot of flack come down on you now.
So when you need someone on your side I will jump in.

Students today are taught and churned out like Pavlov's dogs,
in a Cookie Cutter assembly line.

The core of the problem is more complex, involving Lawyers who force manufactures to add even more and more items to be checked and Instructors brainwashed into beleiving what they teach.

Really sad situation when a student is forced to concentrate on a check list in say a Cessna 150 / 172 down wind that has more items than a Super Connie or the Space Shuttle.

How more bizzare can you get than to check the master switch on when you are talking to each other on the intercom?

So I am with you on this. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Cat Driver

[VORTIME]

On which aircraft type does one check the master is one during flight?? Just curious

[FlyingForFun]

Personally, I believe that standard check-lists which work across several types are very useful.

The Super Cub I used to fly didn't have retractable undercarriage, but I still used to call out "undercarriage down" as part of the check-list. Now I fly a Europa, and I use exactly the same downwind check-list as the Super Cub, including "undercarriage down". I also call out "mixture rich" and "carb heat on", even though my aircraft doesn't have a mixture or a carb heat control - but by not dropping them from my check-list, I know that I'll be able to move to other types and still use the same check-list.

I used to occassionally start the Super Cub without using a check-list - only ever when I was taxying it, not when I was planning to fly it. I have to admit having forgotten the odd item or two once or twice - I think I forgot to turn the master switch on once, and forgot to prime it once. No big deal when taxying, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for flying. All you need to do is forget to set the trim for take-off, and then stall as soon as the aircraft has enough speed to lift itself off the ground, and you'll regret it :eek: Someone's gone to the trouble of preparing these things, so why not use them? IMHO.

FFF
-----------

[QDMQDMQDM]

I think I forgot to turn the master switch on once, and forgot to prime it once. No big deal when taxying, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for flying.

FFF,

Difficult to get flying if you don't switch the master on or prime a cold engine. You soon figure out the mistake when nothing much happens up front.

As for the trim, do a left to right cockpit check of all the knobs and instruments. You won't miss the trim -- it's down there below the mags and carb heat and fuel selector, just above the flap lever.

Much better than a written checklist in a Super Cub, IMHO.

QDM

[englishal]

Yep, checks should be run through from memory, then the checklist should be brought out and scanned through just to make sure there are no obvious errors. Otherwise you get the checklist 'parrot'....T's and P's are green ....but are they? I've found myself sprouting cr@p from the card, just becasue its written down. Much better to know and understand the checks rather than rely on the card, or else, when the sh@t hits the fan, you're scrambling around looking for the right section blah blah...

And don't forget 'Final's clear, check the gear'.....:)

By the way, when I was on Australia, I flew from Adelaide to Port Lincoln in a C421 (in the RHS as a passenger)....The pilot had a really cool checklist which was basically a strip inside a box with a clear window. When doing the checks, he just scrolled through them by winding a knob, so the checklist was always in the right position for the next phase of flight. When he landed and shut down, he just wound it back. He had this stuck to the dashboard, and it struck me as being a very good idea. Anyone know who makes these and where to get them?

Cheers
EA;)

[MLS-12D]

Well QDMQDMQDM you are not alone in your dislike of checklists for simple aircraft. There is an article on "AvWeb" entitled "throw away that stupid checklist", which supports and elaborates on the points that you made. It's available at www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0001.html
I agree with englishal's method.:)

MLS-12D

[QDMQDMQDM]

MLS-12D,

What an excellent pair of articles! Thanks for that.

QDM

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Vortime:

Here in British Columbia they have that on some check lists for the C150/52/72 aircraft.

In fact I would hazard a guess that excessively long check lists are used to run up the hobbs time. ( though not down wind of course )

And once more remember I have owned and operated a flight school both fixed and rotary wing. My opinions and comments are partly molded by having experienced the system from an owners viewpoint.

Cat Driver

[MLS-12D]

The second article to which
QDMQDMQDM refers is "checklists redux", and is available at
www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0002.html

[Tinstaafl]

I agree about the over use of written checklists.

Using nmemonics or flow pattern are still a forms of checklists, however.

In a previous CP/CFI job our school taught from 1st flight up to night & CPL to do things from memory or through some logical pattern.

Even when tested by external or Authority examiners no student was ever clipped for doing so. The reason? Because the system worked. It just wasn't necessary to have a written checklist to tell you to switch the master on etc...

I've swapped between numerous GA types & have never found the need to follow a written checklist for normal ops or immediate actions for abnormals/emergencies.

Different matter if fault finding some electrical gremlin & the like or making sure that all subsequent actions are completed.

In my current job written checklists aren't used in the normal day-to-day work. There are only a limited number of items that need to be remembered.

What's next? A written checklist to remind us to get in?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I agree memory checks of the truly important safety items such as fuel on correct tank and sufficient, trims set and controls free are the important things to do before every take off..

When landing I use a slightly different memory check just prior to landing.

Turning final I always once more ask my self, where am I landing and where is my gear? I always do that both fixed wing and rotary wing.

P.S.

When in Britain I do this memory check when turning finals. :D

The reason being that turning finals exposes me to at least twice the risk as turning final. :D :D

Cat Driver

[bluskis]

I was taught a comprehensive mental check list years ago which still seems to work fine. Various complexities have been added to it but they all seem to be able to be fitted into the rhythm of the checks.

The important thing with mental checks is if you are interrupted, start again from the beginning.

I personally find trying to use a check list is more disruptive than the mental method.

With an unfamiliar airplane, a checklist is definitely required until its pecularities are firmly slotted into the mental routine.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

I'm with the mnemonic / memory check camp, if you're flying simple aircraft or are familiar with the type. That's 2 quite big "ifs"... if you normally fly a plane with a carburettor engine you'll wish you'd used the checklist when trying to start an identical looking fuel injected model!

I was taught to fly without using checklists, using a "back to front" then "left to right" cockpit check pre-start, and mnemonics for pre-take off and circuit checks. Emergency checks had to be memorised.

Post PPL on a new type, I got into the habit of using a checklist. One day I skipped a line by accident, and almost took off without locking the canopy - a potentially fatal mistake in a Slingsby T67. A pre-take off mnemonic check would have been safer.

Someone above said that checklists are safer when used properly. On multi-crew aircraft, one person reads from the list while the other makes the check. Nothing gets missed. When you're alone, it's too easy to get distracted and miss a line...

In my view, everyone should use a quick memory check of the things that could kill you on take off & landing.

[GRP]

I'm with the mental crowd as well - so to speak. At least once I have left terra firma.

The reason for posting though is to point out to Chuck that as far as I am aware most of us turn final here in the UK too!:) :) It's only those military types that do it more than once! They do that strange run and break thing as well! For some reason ATC won't let me try it in my Arrer!

[niknak]

QDM - A fully subscribed member of the "It'll never happen to me club":rolleyes:

[paulo]

Like many things in life, only break the rules once you're experienced enough to know which ones you can break, and why.

Me? Checklists? I'm sticking to the rules.

One day the "gear down" check might actually result in me finding some gear that isn't already welded in that position. FFF is spot on. :-)

PS That Europa ride offer isn't forgotten. :D

[QDMQDMQDM]

QDM - A fully subscribed member of the "It'll never happen to me club"

On the contrary, if anything I tend to be rather an over-anxious flyer. Written checklists increase my anxiety because I have no feel for what I am doing.

Too much anxiety is bad for you, just as too little is.

QDM

[StrateandLevel]

Every aeroplane has checks, whether you memorise them, or write them down in a list, there is always a Check List.

The RAF make student pilots remember all of their checks; however, the average PPL does not fly frequently enough for them to memorise and retain all of this information. Consequently, the Check List is the norm and forms part of a schools standardisation.

Pilots should not be reading a Check List in the circuit, all important checks should be memorised. Less important items and subsequent actions are better carried out from a check list to ensure they are correct. How often do you have an alternator failure and is it reasonable for low houred pilots to memorise infrequent emergency drills?

Back to the original thread, there is no examination requirement that necessitates a pilot making a check list!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So that's why Cherrytrees and 172s make such ggigantic circuits - they're all reading their checklists!

Checklists are inappropriate for small aeroplanes - and on big aeroplanes they are used (as their name implies) as a check - that the the item has been done, not as a 'shopping list' of things to do.

Externals are obvious (once you are familiar with the aeroplane) and don't need a checklist.

Internals - start at the left lower side of the cockpit and work your way round.

In flight: this is the last place yoiu should be reading a checklist. And certainly not in the circuit. Look outside all the time (with brief glances to the panel), memorise the checks, and don't do innapprpriate ones (e.g. gear down in a fixed gear plane). If you do, the day you fly a retractable you'll chant "gear down" just like you've been doing for years - and do nothing else, just like you've been doing for years. Humans are creatures of habit.

Apply brain, not rote.

SSD.

[FlyingForFun]

SSD, I agree with half of your post.

In flight: this is the last place yoiu should be reading a checklist
I agree. In flight, I always memorize check-lists. There are a few exceptions - rarely used check-lists which aren't critical, and aren't needed at critical stages of flight. For example, when flying an Aztec, I was taught to memorize the actions to take in case of engine failure, up to the point of getting the engine feathered. Once the aircraft is under control and the engine featered, I'd reach for the check-list and read out the engine re-start checks. But in general, in-flight checks in every aircraft I've ever flown (and I suspect all single-pilot aircraft) should be memorized - certainly the downwind checks should be.

But on the ground, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't follow a check-list to ensure that items aren't missed. What if the panel of your aircraft is laid out such that left-to-right won't work? What if the fuel selector is to the right of the fuel pump, for example? You'd need to make an exception - work left to right, except remember to turn the fuel on first. How many exceptions are acceptable before you need to use a checklist? Why not just use a checklist anyway? I can't see any reason not to use a check-list. When I was training, I constantly forgot to turn my mobile phone off before taking off - so I wrote it on the top of my check-list! Working across the panel from left to right would certainly never include checking my mobile phone is off - but my check-list did.

Externals is an interesting one though - I personally prefer not to use a check-list for externals, because the check-list can't possibly cover everything, and by following a check-list you're more likely to miss something. Much better to keep your eyes on the aircraft, keep them moving over the surface looking for anything which seems out of place, whether it's on the check-list or not. But I can definitely see that there's a good argument both ways for externals.

As for not doing inappropriate checks, as I said earlier on the thread, I disagree - learn one check-list, and use it for every aircraft, even if there are inappropriate checks. I've flown aircraft with fixed and retractable gear, with and without carb-heat, with and without a mixture control, with and without a fuel pump to turn on for go-around, with and without hatches or doors - but I always check all of those items down-wind. I've never yet forgotten to check an item on one aircraft, just because I didn't need to check it on the previous aircraft I flew, and I'd have thought you'd be more likely to do this by trying to memorize different check-lists for each aircraft.

FFF
-------------

[FNG]

I suppose that the issue for the Human Factors Researchers is not so much "written or memory" as "how do we get people to do stuff consistently (and really do it, not just say they're doing it)?"

I was taught on the basis that I never used a checklist when in flight, save in respect of low-level emergencies such as alternator failure (ie: if something has gone wrong that isn't about to kill you, get out the checklist and read the "how to fix it" procedures). I am broadly in favour of doing all or most checks from memory, particularly on types with which you are familiar. I have in the past caught myself parrotting checks from a written list without really looking at the thing I was supposedly checking, but have equally been guilty of parrotting FREDA checks and pre-landing checks from memory (speaking them but not really doing them). The latter tendency was (mostly) beaten out of me towards the end of my PPL training and when doing some type conversions thereafter. Nowadays I try to make myself point at things as well as saying out loud what I'm supposed to be checking.

For my regular aircraft I use the T-Tiger M-Moths F-Fly G-Good and H-High mnemonic pre take-off (Trim, Throttle Friction, Mixture, Mags, Fuel, Flaps, Gauges, Gyros, Hatches, Harnesses). When I fly other aircaft (the ones I was trained on or flew just after getting my licence), I tend to use the written checklist on the ground only, for start-ups, and have sometimes resorted to post-it notes stuck in front of me saying things like "CARB HEAT!" (as I usually fly fuel injected types) or "FUEL!" (as I usually fly with only one tank, and have to remember if I have two).

I am in two minds about the virtues of practices such as announcing "carb heat negative" when doing run-ups in a fuel injected aircraft, or "gear fixed" when preparing to land in a fixed gear aircraft (although I do both of these). The point here is that reminding myself that I don't need carb heat in an aircraft where I don't need it doesn't necessarily help me to remember that I do need it in an aircraft which where I do. I don't know whether the same would apply in the case of bendy gear as I haven't yet tried that.


PS: Chuck, I agree: where does this "Finals" nonsense come from?

[foghorn]

Checklist on the ground, memory in the air for me.

I had a checkride with a certain large UK PPL school's instructor once who chastised me for not reading the checklist downwind. He wouldn't accept the fact that I covered all the relevant items from memory (via the mnemonic BUMPFFLS), in a much more safe manner than reading the checklist.

IMHO a busy circuit is a dangerous place to be heads down on the checklist.

foggy.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There are two ways check lists are accomplished, single pilot operations and multi crew operations.

In single pilot operations memory checks are generally preferable. The secret to safety when using a memory list is to " ALWAYS " check every item in your list. Items that do not pertain to the vehicle you are flying at the time are checked by saying " not required " that will give continuity to your check list.

Multi crew operation check lists are chellenge and answer checks performed by the crew.

I personally use an old military list I was taught when I first started flying, it covers everything I fly.

The key is " thinking " Not monkey see monkey do.

Cat Driver

[Say again s l o w l y]

On the ground I like my students to use checklists, Why? Simply because the majority of PPL's do not fly often enough to be able to memorise everything aswell as necessary.
The school I teach at has 5 different types and personally I very rarely use a checklist unless it's a new machine or I haven't flown it for a while.
I will admit that not using a check list has occasionally caused me to forget an item, but my pre-take off drills have always caught them before I get off the ground.

In the air ALL checks in a single crew machine MUST be done from memory. Foghorn, I would kick the backside of the instructor who wanted you to have your head down on downwind. Idiot!!

As Chuck and others have already said, nobody should just read a checklist. I've lost count of the number of times someone has said a check and thats all they've done, not actually actioned the item.

Checklists are vitally important, but only as an aide to memory NOT a replacement.

An old captain once showed me a great trick. At intervals during the cruise whilst we were chatting he would turn to me and ask "is there anything wrong with this picture??" Then we would have a look around for anything that may have been overlooked. Top system, usually we never found anything, but sometimes...

[IRRenewal]

A proper checklist will tell you how to operate the aircraft. As an examiner I check if you can operate the A/C in accordance with the checklist, not whether you use a checklist. I prefer the use of a checklist on the ground (pre-flight AND after flight) and memory in the air

However, if you decide not to use one and forget something significant I have little sympathy.

Cheers

[nonradio]

They aren't "downwind " checks they are "pre-landing" chx -carried out, often, whilst downwind to land but presumably still carried out if you join on final or base..?

[Chimbu chuckles]

There is a LOT of negative reinforcement that happens in PPL training...chanting gear down and locked in a fixed undercarriage aircraft is a classic example...its dumb!

Every pilot uses a checklist system of some description, whether it is used to best advantage is a different story.

Checklist Systems

1/. Pneumonic (good system)
2/. Written (Ok in some areas but generally bad)
3/. Electronic
4/. Mechanical (SAFGO/TAB type)

Whatever system you choose it MUST be tailored to the aircraft type.

The big problem with written checklists is the temptation to include lots of items on them. The other problem with written checklists is they require careful attention to not lose your place. They are a distraction and generally only used sparingly in non critical phases of flight.

Electronic checklists can be good PROVIDED they are tailored to the aircraft...one aircraft I have flown (Citation 560) had an electronic checklist in the radar...it had never been tailored and there were items that were not relevant to the aircraft which you had to skip over...there was another item "Passenger Seats"! Yes we had them and they appeared bolted to the floor!!:confused:

It was a reasonable 'system' that was totally negated because it was at least 20% BS items.

The best checklist I have ever used was a SAFGO checklist we had in Talair (PNG). It was a checklist with tabs that covered items when the scan was completed and the item checked. The same checklist, with tailored checks, was in every aircraft in the company...C206, BN2, BE55, Dhc6 and Banderante...they were all flown single pilot. Each Tab had two or three items that were related either by system or geography in the cockpit thus each tab was a backup check to a memory scan.

We had a similar ‘slide & tab’ system in PX F28s, Dash 7s which was also fantastic. Like the Talair SAFGOs it was tailored to the aircraft and not one BS item was evident.

I own a Bonanza and have flown virtually every Cessna and Piper type that has been produced since the 60's...all with a scan and pneumonic checklist (SE only).

Scans

Scans are what airline/jet pilots use to check each system is in the correct configuration. It is memory thing which relies on understanding the system completely and knowing what configuration you want for the phase of flight you are in.

In every aircraft I have flown I’ve started bottom left and worked geographically around the cockpit.

It is a very good system and believe me if it works in a 747 it will work in your basic SE aircraft!

The above scan would be called something like the ‘Initial Acceptance Scan’. Another example of a scan would be checking the brake pressure/antiskid when the gear is selected down. Those are things that go together…you must develop a discipline that ensures doing one thing triggers you to complete your scan of associated systems.

When I’m passing through 10000’ in our company Falcon that triggers in me a scan.

Landing lights/Tail flood light/Belt sign.

I’m not interested in a rote learnt answer to each item…only that it is in the correct configuration for the phase of flight. The answer to 'exterior lights' in the transition checklist is "set"...which may mean on or off depending on whether we are descending or climbing.

Checklists ‘Responses’

This falls into two categories, Single Pilot and Multi crew.

In a single pilot light aircraft scenario where you might be using a pneumonic there is no such thing as a standard rote call out to yourself. Your pneumonic, if it is well thought out, will prompt you to check a system and ensure it is how you want it to be for the phase of flight and the aircraft you are flying, more on this later.

In multi crew aircraft rote learnt standard responses to standard calls are essential. What you are actually doing, scan wise, is the same, but a standard response to the challenge is required so that the PNF knows you have understood what he is asking and carried out the scan appropriately. A good pilot in multi crew ops, either Captain or F/O will know the others scans as well as his own and checked quietly that you have not missed anything anyway.

An example from our Falcon checklist would be;

PNF: “Landing Gear”

PF: “Down, three greens, antiskid checked”

PNF: “Down, three greens, antiskid checked”

You can see if I just respond “Down” or “Down 3 Greens” then the other pilot is going to just call the checklist item again until I answer correctly…which ensures that I do the scan correctly.

A Checklist System that works for you.

This heading assumes you are not working for an airline/company where the CP/Head of C&T has designed a system that you must use.

My system might be the best example. It has been refined over many thousands of hours and works for me. Parts of my system are aircraft type specific, i.e. SE Piston or Multi engine jet, but much carries over between the two.

1/. I’m going to hop in my Bonanza soon for the first time in a long time so I’ll review the Flight Manual and refresh my memory on important stuff.

2/. Performance: I have a system which allows me to do a weight and balance and basic takeoff limitations in about 30 seconds. It is based on tabulated data done on an excel spreadsheet printed out and kept in a clear stiff plastic sleeve. I have one for the Falcon and one for the Bonanza. It uses standard weights. I have another which gives me max allowed takeoff weight for almost any runway. It uses a reference runway length and has wind down one side which gives me an ‘effective’ length and a weight.

They took a lot of work and thought to design and fill with correct info…the plus is in so doing I understand those aspects of the aircraft thoroughly and can have correct info even if it’s 0330 and I’m tired.

3/. Preflight Inspection: If you need a written checklist to do this much beyond 1st solo there is a problem. Whether I’m walking around my Bonanza or the Falcon it is just a slow walk checking everything is ok and ready for flight. The dip sticks are in a different place in each aircraft and there are of course extra/different things on the Falcon compared to the Bonanza but that was covered in the type rating…I can find them without a mud map/checklist.

4/. Pre start: Covered above in ‘Initial Acceptance Scan’ Once completed the aircraft is set up to the point where you next will introduce electrons to wires.

5/. Engine Start: There are only two systems here. Carby or Fuel Injected. If you need a checklist then get out of the aircraft and go home, see point one above.

6/. Start Scan (for a typical piston single):

Brakes/throttle/mixture/beacon/clear prop.

7/. After start:

RPM/Temps and pressures/volts and amps/radio master.

8/. Pre taxi: While waiting for the engine to warm up you might brief your departure.

R Runway: Which one, wet or dry, full length or intersection?

A Asymmetric: What will I do if an engine fails before V1 (on the ground if SE/light aircraft) after V1? Which way will I turn, what is a good minimum safe altitude, IMC/VMC, follow SID or maneuver visually?

N Normal Departure: SID, Visual departure, how? MSA/LSA/Transition altitude?

N Navaids: What navaids do I need, are they set up as I want and identified?

9/. Engine run-up: Need a written checklist for that? See point 1/.

10/. Pre Line up: TEMPFICH

Throttle friction, Engine, Mags, Prop, Fuel/flaps, Instruments, Cabin, Hatches & harnesses.

I’m not interested in rote answers to the above pneumonic…I’m ensuring everything is ready one last time before committing to a takeoff. If you need a written checklist to tell you to check the mixture and boost pump, tank selection under the heading fuel then hand in you license. If ‘Engine’ doesn’t prompt more than “hmm bolted on the aircraft in front of me” then go home…I don’t want you in the same sky as me!

11/. After takeoff: Aircraft clean, climb power set, temps and pressures.

Throttle, mixture, Fuel, pitch, cowl flaps and engine instruments are one interrelated ‘system’…when you adjust/think about one you adjust/think about all.

12/. Cruise: Read the second sentence of 11/.

13/. Descent: Think logically of what YOU are going to do from TOPD to touchdown.

Descent Point?
Transition Altitude?
LSA/MSA?
Approach…visual/instrument? Brief/revue the approach plate and the aerodrome diagram so you know where you are going after touchdown.
Fuel to hold/divert?
Notams?
Navaids?

These days the above is second nature but when I was a new F/O in airlines I had a filthy little ditty to help me remember the first letters of each heading in logical order. I would write each heading down on a scrap piece of paper and use it as a ‘checklist’ for my descent brief. A ditty for the above might be. Despite Prior Training All Little Miss Annie F**king New was Nothing:D

I remember one I had for the Dash 7 ended in Lascivious Anal Sex…which stood for Lsa/msa, Approach and Special procedures…whatever works for you.:D

14/. Pre landing: BUMFICH…you all know what this means and combined with PUF on finals should keep you from any big stuffups. Again I’m not interested in rote responses but whether each system, and its ancillary systems, is in the correct configuration for the phase of flight. In 2 aircraft I’ve flown/trained in, C404 and Aerostar, the pitch remained in the cruise setting until after touchdown…so P doesn’t always mean ‘pitch fully fine’.

Chuck.

[Chimbu chuckles]

15/. Not a lot to do after landing…except don’t hit anything or pull the gear up instead of the flaps…not uncommon in Beechcrafts…I use only my index finger to select flaps in the Bonanza and when retracting after landing say to myself “Flaps identified and retracted” before doing it with one finger in a deliberate manner…little hard to select gear up with just one finger!

16/. Pre shut down: Park brake set, a general panel scan turning off anything which needs to be off, live mag check, mixture idle cutoff, ignition off, master off and key removed.

Do you need a written checklist to remember to chock and tie down the aircraft?

It’s all about discipline and engrained good habits…for instance when I bring an aircraft to a stop I set the park brake…always…it’s so ingrained as to be subconscious almost…in fact I’ve walked back to an aircraft more than once to check I hadn’t forgotten…because I couldn’t remember doing it… and in every case I found it set.

The above is a ‘Checklist System’ which draws on many different systems and uses each in an area where it is suited. Even in the Falcon after all the challenge and response double checking I still scan gear/flaps on 200’ finals and say to myself “Gears down and green, flaps set and cleared to land”.

Chuck.

[Pinky95]

In my little experience so far i've always used checklists on the ground anyway, and air is mostly memory items. And to me the checklist gives the security that i haven't forgotten anything, it won't be the first time someone forgot to put something on for take-off and ends up a mile behind the end of the RWY. I wouldn't like that to happen to me anyway.
I can imagine it'll be a pain in the but to do them over and over again, but hey it only takes one extra minute to make sure you covered everything.
Why would the manufacturer otherwise require checklists to be on board and performed?? It's handy to just take the time and figure out what you check everything for (duh) then i think to most people it would actually become a CHECKlist not just a do list....

[juswonnafly]

Just thought I'd add my two penneth here.

For a lot of people check lists provide a feeling of security. For the irregular flyer they assist in not over looking a check.

Do I use them? NO

I agree with QDM that checklists in light singles remove the 'thinking and understanding' behind what is going on. As an instructor I find many students run through the list without really 'checking' at all. It is scary at first to fly without a list but if you have been taught how to monitor and scan the panel in a reliable and logical way then there really is no problem.

Lists also slow you down by at least a factor of two.

Also have you ever considered how strange it is that we advocate the use of lists on the ground (when there is no pressure or difficulty) yet always refer to memory when airborne (when you are under a considerablely higher workload)?

A final point I would add...............if you do use lists............then USE THEM ALL THE TIME!

Happy landings

JWF:)

[GRP]

Still plan to use a checklist on the ground - that's when somebody else may have been flying the same aircraft and left something awkward for me - like a trim wheel all the way back! I notice this particular item didn't get a mention in the preceding list!

I don't set my parking brake either - has to be left off so the grund crew can move the aircraft in and out of the hangar.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Grp,

Trims would be checked as part of the initial acceptance scan. If you then back that up by reading a checklist that double checks the important items that's perfectly fine...like I said whatever works for you.

I have not advocated 'don't use checklists'... very, very far from it...but there are various types of checklists that all have uses...I use all of them, pneumonic, written, electronic, mechanical and 'dirty ditty':D.

When I find out where I can buy a SAFGO type checklist for my Bonanza I'll fit it...along with tailored checks that back up my scans and double check the important items only.

In the world of professional aviation the park brake gets set as soon as you come to a halt...no matter what...to do otherwise would warrant a slap on the wrist (at least) on a line check...an exception would be on a turn around where once the chocks go in you would release the park brake to minimise heat transfer to the wheels to try and cool the brakes as much as possible before the next departure...hardly an issue in a C172.

Hugely long written checklists for Cessna and Piper type SE aircraft have evolved only because of product liability...i.e. the aircraft manufacturers need a way of getting out of rediculous lawsuits...if you've been around aviation long enough you would have noticed how pilots handling books for Cessnas etc are about 3 times as thick as they were 20+ years ago, for the same reason.

My 'checklist system' is a result of bush, airline and corporate experience. I've applied what I've learnt from each to what I do when I'm just flying for fun...it's kept me out of trouble for 10000+ hours...if that's not the test of time I don't know what is.

Chuck.

[Final 3 Greens]

QDM

Manufacturers checklists are not a load of tosh, but some of the third party versions for PA28s etc give you the full 747 experience ... e.g. tasks such as checking the full and free movement of the trim wheel are duplicated or even triplicated! This gives checklists bad name generally.

The really important thing to understand is the difference between systems and procedures between individual types and this comes from the POH and the associated checklist.

I will give you a very simple instance of this. Take a Pup or a Bulldog fly it using a PA28 checklist. It is very similar apart from some crucial details.

If you inadvertently fly a tank dry by following the PA28 procedures on flying on Left or Right rather than Both, you may need to use the starter motor.

Carb heat on (Pup), Master on, Mags on, Fuel on other tank, Fuel pump on etc ... Hit the start button and nothing happens.

Why? Because the Pups and Bulldogs have a quirk - a starter master switch that needs to be selected on too.

This has caused at least one aircraft I know to be force landed (safely) as during considerable stress the pilot regressed to prior PA28 experience and performed all the emergency checks impeccably save the master start switch, which isolates the starter motor.

I know my checklists from memory, although I tend to follw the list through on the ground as it does no harm.

However the main point QDM is to know the differences between types and sub types and always to remember which one you are in at the time!

;) I'd rather rely on a thorough knowledge of the procedures for each type I fly than on Bacon Saver AOA devices!!!!

[QDMQDMQDM]

However the main point QDM is to know the differences between types and sub types and always to remember which one you are in at the time!

Well, obviously.

This has caused at least one aircraft I know to be force landed (safely) as during considerable stress the pilot regressed to prior PA28 experience and performed all the emergency checks impeccably save the master start switch, which isolates the starter motor.

The last time you should be using a written checklist in a light single is when the engine quits.

I'd rather rely on a thorough knowledge of the procedures for each type I fly than on Bacon Saver AOA devices

Cheap shot. Without wishing to sound like a pompous git, although I are one, there is no possible connection between the two. It's like saying 'I'd rather rely on my wings to keep me up than talk to ATC'.

QDM

[Final 3 Greens]

QDM

Sense of humour lapse? I put the "winky smily" in front of the sentence to show it was tongue in cheek and not a serious comment.

You make a pretty dogmatic comment about not using a written checklist after engine failure in a single.

I wasn't advocating that if you re-read my post, but I would challenge your view in this particular context, as the quick reference to the six or seven vital steps on a checklist would have enabled an air start, which in my opinion would have been much safer than a forced landing, no matter how well executed.

However, the real point is that one needs to be able to apply the right procedures for the right aircraft. There are different ways of doing this as the other posters have illustrated.

My asnwer to your question remains, offical checklists are not tosh.

[bluskis]

GRP
Trim figures twice in mental checks:

1. After unlocking subject aircraft, wind trim fully back and fully forward while observing the tab, which is more easily seen from outside the aircraft. Leave trim in take off position.Rest of pre flights follow.

2. Pretakeoff checks TTMMPPFFGGHH and anything you care to add, trim set for takeoff is the first item.

Written check lists have their uses when dealing with unfamiliar aircraft, used in conjunction with the aircraft manual, but in my experience are disruptive when single pilot on familiar types.

Each to his own of course.

[AerBabe]

The subject of to checklist or not to checklist always generates heated response! Personally I don't fly often enough that I would feel comfortable trying to do it without. The external checks I don't use a checklist for though. Far better to keep your hands and eyes free to check everything over.

Whether or not you use a checklist, it's not going to help anyone if you mutter 'charge' without actually checking you have one. I was taught to touch each item as I went through the list, and check everything's in the green.

The in-flight checks I have memorised. None of them are so complicated that anything is likely to be missed. Especially not if you use common sense - by the time you're holding your PPL in your hand it's obvious what you should check if you have an engine failure.

However it is worth getting a good checklist for whichever aircraft you're flying. I've just done my Cherokee check out, and looked at a few difference checklists until I finally found one I was happy with. Even so, I've added bits and taken out bits so I'm happy with what it says, and that I won't forget anything.

[Final 3 Greens]

AerBabe

Glad to hear you are trying the PA28.

Couple of things you may wish to consider....

Cherokees are notorious for being available with many subtle difference as an earlier poster noted - so it's worth checking the POH for each individual a/c you fly and reviewing your checklist in that context ... e.g. some of the 140s start on left mag only, some 180s have a rpm range restriction ion the cruise (although the tacho should be marked anyway.)

Secondly, the AIIB may look at the checklist used in the event of an incident and comment in their report, so best to make sure that it aligns exactly with the POH and any amendments to it just in case.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Sense of humour lapse? I put the "winky smily" in front of the sentence to show it was tongue in cheek and not a serious comment.

Yes, probably so. Sorry, F3G. :(

I maintain, though, that looking in a written checklist after the donkey has checked out ain't clever. For a start, if it's carb icing by the time you've got to carb heat in your checklist all the heat will have gone out of the exhaust manifold.

QDM

[paulo]

QDM - External and inflight aside, are you saying that any other kind of checklist is also tosh? i.e. "Checklists are [always] tosh?"

[Tiger_ Moth]

It's best if you learn the checks completely off by heart then when you're remembering what you have to check you have to think about it rather than just skip across a page. It's quicker too. Less awkard as well.

[nosefirsteverytime]

I'll admit I've never sat in the left seat (for want of money, nothing else!) But I do have a commanding experience of checklists. A nice idea is to put a question mark after every item on the list. so instead of "Gear Down" it's "Gear Down?", flick the switch, be sure it worked, and then "Yup". And something I think we all do it with checklists (and if you don't then DO!) is say it out loud (yes even when on your own).

As for memorised checklists, I'd say have the list open on your lap for safety, and add an extra thing onto the list. "anything forgotten?" where you give a quick look down to your checklist and count the steps

Another good idea is numbering the steps as well.

These are nowt but things I've done at my work, be it at study, or shop management

[Final 3 Greens]

QDM

I agree that in the event of engine failure or rough running in a carburettor single, the first instinctive reaction should be to select heat on whilst there is still some residual heat available, although I wouldn't hold my breath as carb heat is designed to work at high rpm and may not be effective after the engine has stopped.

[QDMQDMQDM]

QDM - External and inflight aside, are you saying that any other kind of checklist is also tosh? i.e. "Checklists are [always] tosh?"

paulo,

My original post referred to the 'simple aircraft most of us fly in this forum'. For simple aircraft using a written checklist internally can anaesthetise the brain and lead to automaticity. Naturally, on more complex types or twin crew operation it's a different story, but there's no point making something simple more complicated.

QDM

[nonradio]

If the motor is not turning over ie prop not windmilling then alternate hot air is not going to make any difference. Surely in a single the first job is to enter the glide and look forward to the landing, suitable sites having been noted as you proceeded up to that point? Unless you routinely fly at 10000 ft, of course. Completing that nice emergency checklist underground could well ruin your day.
Anyway, aren't we talking about SIMPLE types? A Supercub can obviously be flown quite easily with all vitals committed to memory, but if a checklist makes you feel more confident, especially if you don't fly very often, then so be it.
However, if you needed a checklist to fly something like a J3 cub then I'm afraid you could quite properly be considered a Divvy:)

[Final 3 Greens]

non radio

I was referring to an engine failure with the prop windmilling, but even that is unlikely to benefit from carb heat IMHO.

However, the other vital actions may result in a restart when trimmed in the glide and field selected, which is why the manufacturers checklist should be used at that stage from memory or otherwise.

[nonradio]

F3G: can't disagree with that!:D
In my case during the 4 occaisons when I thought engine problems were going to end in a forced landing, I can say that I had my landing area and approach plan sorted before I did anything else and I believe reading a checklist would have been inappropriate. 5000',1000', 1800', and 400' AGL in case you're wondering and only one required a forced landing without power.
Therefore, I would take a punt and say use of a written checklist would be inadvisable below, say, 3000'(?) but committing to memory an engine failure drill to memory is a bl@@dy good idea at any height!!

[QDMQDMQDM]

during the 4 occaisons when I thought engine problems were going to end in a forced landing

Worrying, nonradio! What engine? Not the beautifully reliable Lycoming O-320, I hope. ;)

QDM

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Carb ice does not cause a sudden engine failure, there will be a noticeable loss of power ( loss of RPM fixed pitch prop - Loss of manifold pressure constant speed prop. ) preceeding complete failure.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chuck

You are quite correct, but it is surprising how it can creep up on an unattentive pilot at say +18C on a humid day.

I tend to cycle 1 min of carb heat every 5 on the Pup, as the RR Continental 0-200 can suffer a bit.

Have you firmed up any plans to fly the Cat from Hanger 4 yet?

Best wishes F3G

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yes I agree the 0200 just loves to make carb ice, especially in humid areas such as we both live in.

I will be at EGSX on July 28 and we should be ready for flight tests somewhere after that.

If you live near just go over and ask Clive or Mark Edwards, they are working on it now.

Chuck

[paulo]

QDM - So you did.

How often do you fly?

If you got in with someone else, and they didn't use a checklist for the internals, would any scenario bother you? If they flew every day, I assume not, how about a weekly flyer, a monthly flyer?

How about someone like me who (until I did a dual refresher on Saturday) had gone 3 months with neither time on type or any P1 at all.

Just trying to prod your limits - cos' I don't believe you really mean no-one needs checklists.

[nonradio]

3QDM: Nope -you're OK in the "poor man's helicopter"
Cont. O200, Rotax 532 (ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fact it is a 2 stroke), Lyc. O235, Cont. A65
No worries.

[QDMQDMQDM]

How often do you fly?

At the moment, pretty frequently for a private flyer -- X2-4/week, weather depending. And in a Super Cub only, which is a very simple aircraft, even though it has an electrical and vacuum system, which many don't.

However, all the stuff is there in front of you in most basic light aircraft. You should be able to start it without a checklist, then check after start-up that everything's OK, then taxi off and when it comes to the run-up, well you should be able to do that without the checklist and then if you do a cockpit left to right check for your pre-takeoff vital actions that's pretty much it, isn't it? Your checklist consists of the knobs, switches and instruments by the side of and in front of you, along with that big waggly thing in your hand (the stick, that is) and your seatbelts and door latch.

Sure, if you don't fly frequently or it's a complex type, perhaps a checklist may be useful, but I'll continue to be a devil's advocate here and suggest -- mischievously, of course -- that if you get into a light single and it's so unfamiliar you need to be using the written checklist, you should go for a checkflight first with either an instructor or another experienced pilot and not just trust to a checklist to refamiliarise yourself.

Interesting debate, and I suspect no-one who has taken part in it has changed their positions one jot. Fun, nevertheless. :)

QDM

[Tinstaafl]

Re Carby heat / induction air heat

It doesn't just attempt to supply hot air to the induction system. It also provides an alternative path.

Not all carby heat solvable engine failures are due to carby ice. It could be airframe icing at intake filter or some other mechanical blockage eg a component failure.

[LowNSlow]

I wasn't going to enter into this conversation but here goes:

Simple types such as Cubs (Super or otherwise), the earlier Austers etc really don't really shouldn't need one, if indeed one is available for some of the older or homebuilt types.

After Cubbing around for a while I was working in Belfast and had left the yellow bird at home so I needed a checkout on a club Warrior. I felt the need for a checklist then because it was a new type for me and it had far more clocks and switches than my Cub! However, after a few flights I felt confident enough to do without the checklist as handling the relative complexity prompted long forgotten braincells used during my long defunct twin (sorry multi) rating and IMC to spark back into life.

PS Definitely agree with nonradio re: checklists for Cubs really do mean you are a divvy and should probably stick to supermarket trolleys.

PPS nonradio 40 N of London? Somewhere around North Herts, Stevenage area by any chance?

[nonradio]

L 'n' S: PS - my remark, charitably, applies only to J3 cubs
PPS - that would be telling, wouldn't it? Slightly further north and a snood west.

[Final 3 Greens]

Tinstaafl

Good point.

Also, worth mentioning that card heat is not to be confused with alternate air on a fuel injected engine which is merely the alternative path you mention, without the heat.

[Final 3 Greens]

LnS

Good posting.

I agree that in a type you know well, you should be familiar with the procedures as to render a checklist superfluous, as you know the content and sequence very well and automatically run the checks.

In a type you don't know so well, you need to refer to the written version until familiar - i.e. you can recite any section as easily as the mnemonic for downwind checks.

The bigger issue for me a few years ago, when I regularly flew 172, PA28, PA28R, PA32, B121 and SA120 was remembering which a/c I was in and what to do in each.

These days I fly the B121 usually or PA28R, so life is much simpler.