Flying over Gatwick at 6000'

[Sam Rutherford]

So, currently going around or under Gatwick airspace (VFR) when headed east-west Popham-Brussels, but anyone know if I go IFR whether I'll:

1. Get something more direct overhead, and at what level?
2. Get a huge diversion around?

Or, 3, other?

Be interested to hear back.

Thanks, Sam.

[mary meagher]

Following the western shoreline of Chesapeake Bay, on my way to visit First Flight...talking to the Naval Air Station, they asked me please to fly directly overhead, which makes sense as they can keep an eye on you.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi Mary,

Thank you, but, if I may, that SO wins the 'interesting but not really relevant to the question' prize! :-)

[chevvron]

So, currently going around or under Gatwick airspace (VFR) when headed east-west Popham-Brussels, but anyone know if I go IFR whether I'll:

1. Get something more direct overhead, and at what level?
2. Get a huge diversion around?

Or, 3, other?

Be interested to hear back.

Thanks, Sam.

Had you asked this just over 40 years ago, it was possible to fly over Gatwick between 4,500 and 5,000ft as the airspace was not compulsory IFR below 5,000ft (apart from the Gatwick CTR which I believe was surface - 4500ft) ie it was the equivalent of what we now call Class E airspace.

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm wondering if this is going to become the 'how irrelevant an answer can I post to the question?' thread!

:-)

[Dan Dare]

I’m not an expert in that particular airspace, but I’d be surprised if you would get a better route than suitably south of the Gatwick holds. If something like GWC-DVR is a big detour and you want to go between Gatwick and Heathrow then I’d be suprised if you get to join controlled airspace before Kent somewhere.

[Katamarino]

Once when driving in the USA my wheel fell off.

[Sam Rutherford]

That's my baseline thinking, but a short while back (for interest) I asked for a climb (still south of Gatwick) but up into the TMA. The reply was "not possible because you're on a VFR flight plan". So, wondering if that might have been possible if on an IFR flight - or if I'd then be routed much further south to get the altitude desired (ie still keeping me out of the TMA)?

[Sam Rutherford]

Thanks Katamarino!

Now, where's the number of my other mate in Basra, the one outside the fence...

[Sam Rutherford]

Airpolice.

I'm sorry - your post contains the word 'Gatwick' and so is not completely irrelevant.

Could do better...

[rudestuff]

I love lamp.

[chevvron]

I’m not an expert in that particular airspace, but I’d be surprised if you would get a better route than suitably south of the Gatwick holds. If something like GWC-DVR is a big detour and you want to go between Gatwick and Heathrow then I’d be suprised if you get to join controlled airspace before Kent somewhere.

IFR departures from Blackbushe and Fairoaks towards DVR often file to join at OCK at FL100 in spite of the FISOs at both airfields telling them to file the SDR (GWC - SFD - DVR).
The pilots sometimes moan (especially if it's a bit bumpy) that they don't get climb from 2,400 until they approach DET although Thames Radar do try to do it as early as possible .

[alex90]

IFR in the London TMA is always a bit hit or miss... Sometimes you have to hold and wait 20+mins to get through.

It is quite unlikely that you'll get across Gatwick at 6000ft (or probably any height above the usual VFR transit at 1000ft crossing perpendicular to the runway), your IFR route probably would be something like Popham - GOXUL to join L9 then out to KONAN which is probably a similar extension to your routing south of Gatwick. Albeit perhaps an easier route as IFR in CAS is much easier than IFR OCAS (at least in my mind...)!

[Cazalet33]

The shuttle between the two terminals is free; and it's a lot less than 6,000'.

Don't think it goes around Chesapeake Bay though.:(

[tdbristol]

Sam,

FWIW, my experience is every single time when heading east [traveling from Bristol / Gloucester to France / Belgium in the London TMA at 10,000ft] I get vectored way south of Gatwick. My direct route would be over the southern end of the Heathrow TMZ, but I get sent south not even over Gatwick but down to the south coast just about to [or actually to] the SFD VOR before I can turn ENE again on-track.
Heading West from France / Belgium back to Bristol / Gloucs, each time I get vectored where I would like to be [southern end of Heathrow TMZ] and get a great view of Heathrow on the right side if the weather is good.
This is presumably due to 'normal' east/ west routes and heavy iron holding patterns: the above experience is irrelevant to the flight plan filed and accepted route in each direction [which is way different].

May be different at 6,000' of course ..

Tom

[kaitakbowler]

I'm wondering if this is going to become the 'how irrelevant an answer can I post to the question?' thread!

:-)

Once had a right hand seat down the 13 IGS at Kai Tak.

[Duchess_Driver]

Depends - on lots of things:

What are you flying (performance wise ) and what time of day it is (busy periods in the TMA).

Once away from the surface/CTRs most of it is class A now, so that would be the reason you didn't get your VFR route approved.

I find that in a Cirrus where speed and climb performance is less likely to cause issues I get a more (reasonably) direct route. In a PA28, it seems I'm only just getting steady on the last heading given then there is either a new heading issued or a level change instructed to keep me out of the way.

Usually I go to the North of London so I don't really have any relevant/recent experience, but I'd be thinking that they'd more likely vector you to the south of LGW to keep you clear of LHRs southern SIDs and STARs and Gatwick northern stuff. Less congested to the south.

Difficult with area controllers, but if I'm not sure what's best I try and call the radar/approach controllers at an airport to see what they're preferred/likely steers are going to be.

[chevvron]

Difficult with area controllers, but if I'm not sure what's best I try and call the radar/approach controllers at an airport to see what they're preferred/likely steers are going to be.

The controllers in this airspace won't be Area Radar (ACS), they'll be Approach Radar (APS) with Terminal Control (TCL) endorsements for the particular sectors where they work

[excrab]

If you can get to FL80 or above could you file an IFR flight plan to join L9 at CPT to KONAN then fit in with Brussels STARS. Obviously might need a bit of orbiting outside of controlled airspace to reach 80 from Popham. If you're aircraft is below 2300kg or whatever the limit is for Euro charges nowadays, and it's de-iced, and you have an IR then why not do that every time, far easier than low level VFR stuff.

[Duchess_Driver]

The controllers in this airspace won't be Area Radar (ACS), they'll be Approach Radar (APS) with Terminal Control (TCL) endorsements for the particular sectors where they work

Thanks - wasn't aware of the correct terminology but the principle is the same. I can call Newcastle ATC and speak with the Duty ATCO for advice but with upper airspace I was never sure who would take a call if I ever wanted to.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Sam,
I was once told by Gatwick to “remain clear of controlled airspace” although I wasn’t at 6,000 ft. I was in an LAA Permit a/c though.

[custardpsc]

I just looked at what I would file for that. Firstly, here is my stab at irrelevancy - there are no standard route departures to file from popham so that isn't a help. The otherwise excellent standard route doc would be very useful if you were departing from somewhere that was in it though...

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=186&Itemid=258.html)

More helpfully - using the also excellent Autorouter - Two routes validate:

EGHP N0121F130 BIG Q70 KOK KOK7A EBBR



or


EGHP N0117F100 MID/N0117F100 IFR M140 DVR L9 KONAN L607 KOK KOK7A EBBR


I would probably file the second as I would guess the first is unlikely to result in a climb into controlled airspace much before Biggin.



My guess is that you would indeed get to fly as filed outbound, but possibly not on the return leg. Or vice versa. BUT. it really depends on factors such as the runway in use at both Heathrow and Gatwick - because of the traffic flows. I asked a similar question about Denham - Oostend in the ATC Issues forum and received some really useful answers there. I would think it unlikely that you'd be vectored overhead Gatwick, and if you do get vectors rather than direct MID, direct DVR it will be to avoid the prevailing traffic flow, especially if you are in the opposite direction to it. And probably a descent too, to avoid triggering TCAS alerts. Which in turn may drop you out of controlled airspace. And, yes,. likely well south. No easy way to predict. But for more details do ask the same question in ATC issues... some really helpful folks there.

[JSAG]

I seem to remember one of our pilots talking about being able to either fly over or land at Gatwick when the Iceland volcanic cloud grounded all schedule flights.

[Duchess_Driver]

I seem to remember one of our pilots talking about being able to either fly over or land at Gatwick when the Iceland volcanic cloud grounded all schedule flights.
22nd Nov 2017 15:57

Yup, "work away, lads!" from Gatwick, Luton and Stansted - but then they were class D anyway so not a big deal. Don't recall trying for Heathrow.

[chevvron]

I just looked at what I would file for that. Firstly, here is my stab at irrelevancy - there are no standard route departures to file from popham so that isn't a help. The otherwise excellent standard route doc would be very useful if you were departing from somewhere that was in it though...


.
Try looking at the Farnborough SDRs in the AIP and on Jeppesen plates which are also applicable to Odiham and Lasham, (Blackbushe, Fairoaks and Dunsfold too!)both of which are only short distances from Popham.
If you do this, make sure you send a copy of your IFR flight plan to Farnborough so that after departure, you can call them and request them to arrange your joining clearance. Joins will be either towards CPT for westbound/northbound/ Amsterdam FIR, GWC for southbound and Brussels FIR or HAZEL for western France/Spain etc.