BA Cityflyer-2

[Byrne11]

Random question.

Does anyone know the career progression from BA Cityflyer to mainline BA if a pilot wanted to change onto the mainline. Is it still 2-3 years or has that changed.

[EMB-145LR]

It’s by no means a sure fire thing. I believe you have to serve at least two years at CityFlyer. You then go through the full BA selection except for the day one screening which is the psychometric and written tests.

[Jamie2k9]

The weekly DUB-IBZ has been taken offline line last week. Not sure how it impacts on the rest of the weekend schedule the aircraft used to operate.

[Byrne11]

It’s by no means a sure fire thing. I believe you have to serve at least two years at CityFlyer. You then go through the full BA selection except for the day one screening which is the psychometric and written tests.

I see. I thought once you got to Cityflyer you in essence side stepped the BA entrance. So, would I be correct in thinking a pilot coming from EZY with an A320 type rating would be in a better position in comparison to a Cityflyer pilot.

[cornishsimon]

That seems like a bit of a nonsense really from an outsiders point of view. I know IAG run BA and cityflyer as different airlines but geeee wiz

[Plane.Silly]

On one hand it does seem a bit of a farce, not 'promoting from within'. But at the same time, Cityflyer operate EMB's which the main BA fleet doesn't have. It would seem that an EZY A320 rated pilot would have more chance, being a type BA uses

[Byrne11]

That seems utterly farcical. I was under the impression, the 'promoting from within' is what occurred. It was one element that had me particularly interested In applying as well.

[monkey.tennis]

It’s actually even worse than that. You can’t even apply until you’ve completed 2 years at BACF and even if you get in, BACF will prevent you from moving across if they are short of crew at the time. At BACF you get a lot of the negatives of working for BA and very few of the positives. If your goal is to get into BA mainline then don’t apply to BACF.

[Byrne11]

Is this from experience or hearsay, Is there any positives to BACF?

I've heard they can be reluctant to let pilots move across, I don't know how they can prevent you.

[EMB-145LR]

They definitely kept Pilots back for a few months back in 2015.

[BAladdy]

BACF will add two additional E90 aircraft to there fleet over the next couple of months.

The first aircraft (G-LCYY) is being leased from Nordic Aviation Capital for a 4 year period and is expected to enter service on 01JAN18. This aircraft was previously operated by Azul (PP-PJL)

The second aircraft is expected a couple of months later.

This will mean that BACF will operate a fleet of 22 E-Jet aircraft starting S18.

[canberra97]

Are there any additional routes or schedules being added by BACF with the addition of these two E-Jets?

[LAX_LHR]

There are some additions at MAN.

[BAladdy]

Are there any additional routes or schedules being added by BACF with the addition of these two E-Jets?

The S18 schedule is currently being up dated. However when you compare the schedule that op for first week in AUG17 to the one loaded for S18 the following changes have already been made

Dublin

IBZ - 1 x Weekly Service that operated during S17, will not operate S18

London City

DUS - Will increase from 16 to 17 x Weekly
FLR - Will increase from 11 to 12 x Weekly
AGP - Saturday rotation added for S17 will not operate S18
GVA - Will op 10 x Weekly S18. Was dropped for S17 peak season.
PMI - Saturday rotation added for S17 will not operate S18
ORY - Did not op S17. Will op up to 18 x Weekly for S18
PRG - 6 x weekly service introduced for W17 will year round. 6 x weekly frequency continues S18.
RTM - Will increase from 17 to 21 x Weekly

London Stansted

FLR - Saturday service moves from a morning to afternoon departure. Remains 2 x Weekly on a E70
IBZ - Frequency reduced from 4 to 3 x Weekly. BA2334/BA2335 Rotation dropped.
NCE - Mid afternoon departure on a Saturday now showing as departing early morning. Remains Weekly on a E70
PMI - Frequency reduced from 2 to 1 x Weekly for S18

I have heard rumours (they are only rumours) that BACF are dropping there FLR-BHX service for next summer and replacing it with a MAN-FLR service. However this only rumour and BHX flights still showing as available to book for S18.

Further changes highly likely in coming weeks

[LAX_LHR]

For MAN:

Based aircraft increases to 3, with Mykonos, Palma, Malaga and Alicante going 2weekly. Weekly away based Florence is new. Have full timetable if anyone is interested.

[BAladdy]

Good to see some expansion planned at MAN next year. Any idea when they expect to but the additional frequencies?. I wonder if they will also increase the number of routes on offer from MAN.

Do you know if BACF are planning on increasing there ops at BRS or BHX?.

I am surprised with a large crew base in EDI that they aren’t adding any other routes from there.

[Lee J]

For MAN:

Based aircraft increases to 3, with Mykonos, Palma, Malaga and Alicante going 2weekly. Weekly away based Florence is new. Have full timetable if anyone is interested.

Yes please, Malaga at least!

[pamann]

With a couple of reductions of frequencies ex STN is there scope for anything new? I would have thought Mykonos (JMK) and/or Santorini (JTR) would fare well seeing as these are untapped markets from STN??

[LAX_LHR]

The full MAN schedule:

AC-1
Thu
BA7310 LCY 1940 MAN 2040
BA7315 MAN 2125 IBZ 0115+1
Fri
BA7316 IBZ 0155 MAN 0340
BA7317 MAN 0535 AGP 0935
BA7318 AGP 1020 MAN 1225
BA7319 MAN 1310 JMK 1910
BA7320 JMK 1955 MAN 2205
Sat:
BA7321 MAN 0550 ALC 0940
BA7322 ALC 1025 MAN 1220
BA7323 MAN 1305 NCE 1625
BA7324 NCE 1710 MAN 1835
BA7315 MAN 1915 IBZ 2320
Sun
BA7316 IBZ 0005 MAN 0150
BA7325 MAN 0555 PMI 0940
BA7326 PMI 1025 MAN 1210
BA7315 MAN 1250 IBZ 1640
BA7314 IBZ 1725 MAN 1910
BA7313 MAN 1955 LCY 2025


AC-2
Sat
BA7314 IBZ 1045 MAN 1230
BA7326 MAN 1320 PMI 1505*
BA7327 PMI 1550 MAN 1735*
Sun
BA7328 MAN 0535 FAO 0840*
BA7329 FAO 0920 MAN 1225*
BA7311 MAN 1320 LCY 1420

AC-3
Sat
BA7318 AGP 1250 MAN 1455
BA7319 MAN 1545 JMK 2145
BA7320 JMK 2230 MAN 0040
Sun
BA7321 MAN 0540 ALC 0930
BA7322 ALC 1025 MAN 1220
BA9329 MAN 1310 PMI 1455

AC-4
Sat
BA7332 FLR 1710 MAN 1845**
BA7331 MAN 1930 FLR2250**

*this May be subject to change as these flights were showing at one point but the next vanished again

**Im pretty sure this replaces the BHX-FLR flight as it may just be a coincidence but the timings are very similar, in fact pretty much the same barring the flying time difference, to the BHX one and was under the impression only one aircraft nightstopped at FLR, but of course a second aircraft may be introduced or a W pattern (but the aircraft does get back very late for a W pattern and I can’t see 2xFLR-LCY on Sunday given STN also has a sunday afternoon FLR.)

[Reversethrustset]

Are there any plans to open a crew base in BHX or MAN or are they crewed remotely from the current bases?

[LAX_LHR]

BHX (and BRS) run off away based flights and only 4 at that, so, the crews unlikely to be based.

Given MAN only has a Thu-Sun base, may not pay to have a crew base just yet, unless they are part time with Mon/Tue/Wed as days off, so I’d say they will remain LCY based for the foreseeable.

[BAladdy]

Possibility that MAN will just be a 2 aircraft op again next Summer. BACF have started actioning schedule changes for S18. The first two confirmed changes released

BHX-IBZ - Is being dropped completely for S18
MAN-JMK - Day of operation change from Friday to Saturday.

Booking system to be updated later today to reflect the changes to MAN-JMK. BHX-IBZ has already been removed from sale.

[LAX_LHR]

That’s odd then as the schedule I posted earlier was quite a recent change too, and seemed to fit well, especially with 2 extra aircraft coming to CJ.

I do wonder if there is a work in progress then?

If not, still may be more capacity as the 2nd based used to sit at MAN between arriving on Sat and departing on Sun. With JMK moving to a Saturday it frees up a Friday slot at the very least.

I wonder if the BHX flights will not operate at all next summer? Ibiza gone, Florence highly likely to go the same way, Palma now has Primera competition too.

[BAladdy]

Loads on the BHX flights last summer were not great. A lot of that is probably down to the flights really late evening departure times. Landing in IBZ 2am is not exactly ideal. Especially if you are going on holiday.

[LAX_LHR]

The late IBZ clearly didn’t affect MAN too much, the Thu flight arrives in IBZ 0115, and another at 2340. The load/yield must justify the Thu flight from City being the only flight that night, otherwise they may as well wait until Friday to fly into the MAN base?

[marko1]

At the moment all bristols flights are still available. Will this continue to be the case and will there be more opportunities to follow ?

[Flightrider]

Highly unlikely that MAN would become a crew base. Even GLA - where they have two nightstops every night during the week and up to seven at weekends for charters - isn't a crew base (only EDI and LCY are) and so there's nothing likely to confer that status at MAN based on a much smaller weekend programme.

[BAladdy]

The late IBZ clearly didn’t affect MAN too much, the Thu flight arrives in IBZ 0115, and another at 2340. The load/yield must justify the Thu flight from City being the only flight that night, otherwise they may as well wait until Friday to fly into the MAN base?
You are right that the late Thursday flight early am arrival into IBZ hasn’t been affected. The reason for that is in a big way down to the overall schedule to IBZ. The schedule at MAN offers pax to travel to IBZ for a long weekend. Something not offered on the BHX route.

I travelled on the MAN service back in July. I decided to book the Thursday flight out and the Sunday afternoon flight back. Both flights were completely full and the most expensive to book for travel over that weekend. When I boarded the flight home I would say that about 75% of the pax were on the same flight I had flown out on a couple of days prior..

[RealFish]

That’s odd then as the schedule I posted earlier was quite a recent change too, and seemed to fit well, especially with 2 extra aircraft coming to CJ.

I do wonder if there is a work in progress then?

If not, still may be more capacity as the 2nd based used to sit at MAN between arriving on Sat and departing on Sun. With JMK moving to a Saturday it frees up a Friday slot at the very least.

I wonder if the BHX flights will not operate at all next summer? Ibiza gone, Florence highly likely to go the same way, Palma now has Primera competition too.


Disappointed if BHX > FLR does go...we’re booked on an early summer flight! Just checked the outbound which seems to show 10 Club seats already spoken for.

I think the problem last year was the late announcement of routes, long after many had arranged summer travel.

[virginblue]

As we are just at it - what average loads do the LCY-MAN vv. flights on Thursdays / Sundays have?

[inOban]

Highly unlikely that MAN would become a crew base. Even GLA - where they have two nightstops every night during the week and up to seven at weekends for charters - isn't a crew base (only EDI and LCY are) and so there's nothing likely to confer that status at MAN based on a much smaller weekend programme.
Or do BACF have a single cohort of crew which serves both EDI and GLA?

[The96er]

As we are just at it - what average loads do the LCY-MAN vv. flights on Thursdays / Sundays have?

Typical loads were approx. 40 passengers. The Late MAN-LCY on the Sun was the more popular, however, a good percentage of the passengers were connecting of the I/bound IBZ-MAN due overbooking of the IBZ-LCY.

[Flightrider]

It's mostly LCY crew who nightstop GLA. There are some taxi journeys to/from EDI on the rosters. Dual EDI/GLA basing no longer permissible under the EASA Flight Time Limitations as the distance between the two airports exceeds the legally stipulated maximum for dual basing to be possible.

[inOban]

Thanks for that. So many people now live between Edinburgh and Glasgow precisely because it gives their family access to employment anywhere along the Edinbrow/Glasburgh megacity that I thought that they might be able to share crew. But no.

[OltonPete]

Another factor affecting the BHX service was weather/logistics. The aircraft flew LCY-FLR-BRS-FLR-BHX-FLR and early on was quite disrupted with delays and cancellations due weather issues affecting Florence. FR24 shows a better performance in the since September with a couple flights disrupted in October and one September.

A case of deja vu for BHX - FLR as flybe basically gave up on the 175 operating the route due to operational reasons with the 195 was subbed in and eventually the service ended.

I sat on the 175 for an hour with 85 other pax whilst they searched for the missing tow-bar which must have been hiding in the hold under the 30 or so bags they removed and a brief shower took the temperature down a couple of degrees before we departed.

Fares and loads seemed okay on the BACF Florence with September showing 84% load factor but BHX IBZ and for that matter Palma were awful at times although Malaga seemed fine.

[RealFish]

Sat
BA7332 FLR 1710 MAN 1845**
BA7331 MAN 1930 FLR2250**

*this May be subject to change as these flights were showing at one point but the next vanished again

**Im pretty sure this replaces the BHX-FLR flight as it may just be a coincidence but the timings are very similar, in fact pretty much the same barring the flying time difference, to the BHX one and was under the impression only one aircraft nightstopped at FLR, but of course a second aircraft may be introduced or a W pattern (but the aircraft does get back very late for a W pattern and I can’t see 2xFLR-LCY on Sunday given STN also has a sunday afternoon FLR.)

BHX > FLR has been confirmed with new timings

BA7025 BHX 06:00 FLR 09:20
BA7024 FLR 10:05 BHX 11:30

[LAX_LHR]

Aircraft becomes BHX ‘based’ for the new flight times.

Sat
BA7032 PMI 0155 BHX 0330
BA7025 BHX 0600 FLR 0920
BA7024 FLR 1005 BHX 1130
BA7029 BHX 1220 PMI 1550
BA7028 PMI 1645 BHX 1820
BA7031 BHX 1905 AGP 2300
BA7032 AGP 2350 BHX 0145+1
Sun
BA7029 BHX 0815 PMI 1145

[Plane.Silly]

pushing for a 6 sector day, lets hope it doesn't go tech...

[daz211]

How does STN look for summer 18, wish they would add STN-JMK this route is untouched at STN and to many Airlines on the popular sun routers.

[LAX_LHR]

The summer schedule for MAN so far, but is a work in progress.

Thu
BA7310 LCY 1940 MAN 2040-from base
BA7315 MAN 2135 IBZ 0115+1
Fri
BA7316 IBZ 0155 MAN 0340
BA7317 MAN 0540 AGP 0940
BA7318 AGP 1025 MAN 1230
BA7324 MAN 1315 PMI 1700
BA7325 PMI 1755 MAN 1940
BA7313 MAN 2025 IBZ 0015
Sat
BA7312 IBZ 0050 MAN 0240
BA7321 MAN 0550 ALC 0940
BA7317 MAN 0600 AGP 1000
BA7322 ALC 1025 MAN 1220
BA7314 IBZ 1045 MAN 1230****
BA7318 AGP 1045 MAN 1250
BA7323 MAN 1315 NCE 1635
BA7319 MAN 1415 JMK 2015
BA7332 FLR 1710 MAN 1845**
BA7324 NCE 1720 MAN 1845
BA7331 MAN 1930 FLR 2250**
BA7315 MAN 1930 IBZ 2320
BA7320 JMK 2100 MAN 2310***
Sun
BA7316 IBZ 0005 MAN 0150
BA7325 MAN 0555 PMI 0940
BA7326 PMI 1025 MAN 1210
BA7315 MAN 1250 IBZ 1640
BA7313 MAN 1445 MAN 1835- then goes elsewhere
BA7314 IBZ 1725 MAN 1910
BA7311 MAN 1955 LCY 2055-back to base

3 aircraft appear to be stationed, and 28 weekly flights so far. All are bookable, barring Florence which is yet to be announced. This uses a FLR originating aircraft that previously ran to BHX.

Some quirks:

-it’s not yet know where the 2nd Aircraft comes from on Friday night to operate the first outbound on Saturday. It then departs 1445 Sunday to IBZ, so, potentially a new route from 0550-1400 on Sunday, Faro perhaps?

-Florence as stated is yet to be announced but is loaded internally.

-The 3rd aircraft arrives 1220 on sat from IBZ. It used to ground stop until 1320on Sunday by then running back to LCY. That particular LCY flight now no longer operates, so either another flight will be loaded (it’s certainly loaded on the internal MAN systems) or that particular IBZ flight will be taken off sale.

As said, MAN is definately a work in progress as something changes each time I view the flights, and we know FLR at least is still to come, but, a decent increase compared to S17 already.

[2Planks]

There is a bit of a froth on a skiing forum re limited number of skis carried on a charter flight from EDI-CMF. Is that because space is limited in the hold or a weight issue on the return leg from CMF (especially with a tailwind take off) or a combination of the two?

[Plane.Silly]

I'd say it's probably a weight/performance issue, given CMF short runway. that being said it may even be down to space depending who the charter is with (BE's -8's or E175/195 OR LS's B733, all of which aren't particularly large planes?)

[nguba]

BA has confirmed the summer regional routes in a media release:

British Airways - EVEN MORE REGIONAL FLIGHTS TO HOLIDAY HOTSPOTS NEXT SUMMER (http://mediacentre.britishairways.com/pressrelease/details/86/News-1/9026?ref=Home)

From May 2018 there will be extra weekend flights from Manchester to Malaga, Ibiza and Palma, with Mykonos flights operating on Saturdays instead of Fridays, an extra weekend flight from Birmingham to Palma and an extra weekend flight from Bristol to Malaga.

Additional summer routes include flights from Manchester to Alicante and Nice, from Birmingham to Malaga and Florence and from Bristol to Ibiza, Palma and Florence.

[canberra97]

I would have loved to have seen BACF expand even more into the regions and offer some of these flights from SOU for summer 2018.

[nguba]

There may be more announcements to come. Last year BHX and BRS were announced separately after MAN and STN.

[LAX_LHR]

There are more announcements to come. MAN-FLR needs to be announced as does a flight on Sunday morning, and I imagine STN will get one or two more routes at the very least too.

There are 2 more E190s due by next summer, and while I suspect the BHX/BRS flights now fill those extra frames, could be more to come.

[Letsflycwl]

Be great to have them at CWL, plenty of unserved destinations on offer here and would then truly make the airline “British” as Wales is the only part of the UK without a BA schedule.

[SWBKCB]

I'm sure most UK regions would like a chuffing great big BA maintenance base. :ok:

Unless a few weekend sun flights contributes more to the local economy? :yuk:

[pamann]

As has already been mentioned STN really does need something new (JMK & JTR would be a welcome addition). Maybe we’ll hear something over the next couple of weeks?

[yeo valley]

There are more announcements to come. MAN-FLR needs to be announced as does a flight on Sunday morning, and I imagine STN will get one or two more routes at the very least too.

There are 2 more E190s due by next summer, and while I suspect the BHX/BRS flights now fill those extra frames, could be more to come.
BRS did a full season of flights in 2017 with 4 destinations. Some of the destinations will be increased in S18 with mutterings of extra destinations served.
The FLR rotation in S17 was a E170 but the rest were E190.I think the FLR rotation to be upgraded to a E190 in S18

[Jerry123]

Be great to have them at CWL, plenty of unserved destinations on offer here and would then truly make the airline “British” as Wales is the only part of the UK without a BA schedule.
Could do with more capacity to the likes of PMI ALC and AGP from IAG rather than new routes.

[Jerry123]

I'm sure most UK regions would like a chuffing great big BA maintenance base. :ok:

Unless a few weekend sun flights contributes more to the local economy? :yuk:
What's that got to do with BA not offering scheduled flights from Wales with it's own metal?

[SWBKCB]

So doing a very bucket and spade flights on the odd summer weekend from CWL would make BA "British", but a significant investment generating local jobs doesn't?

I'm always surprised by the excitement generated by BACF finding things to do with their a/c when LCY is shut.

[LAX_LHR]

I think we need to get past this mentality.

Yes, it is a circumstance that has been created by LCY being shut, but LCY has always been shut on Saturdays, so, why run these types of flights now?

Also, these flights still have to prove their worth, it’s not some sort of charity case. DUB and BHX to IBZ have been cut for S18, so, shows that some thought is going into the routes chosen and those that are not performing will be cut.

Also, it’s just Saturday and early Sunday that LCY is closed, so begs the question that if it’s just spare aircraft from that closure, then why doe MAN get an aircraft from Thursday night, taking away an aircraft from the busy LCY Friday schedule?

And I think that’s the crux of the excitement. Yes, they are just aircraft that can’t use LCY on sat, but, I’m sure there are no shortages of airports that would happily get the flights too, but the fact UK regionals see the aircraft is a great move away from the London Airways mentality....

[Jerry123]

So doing a very bucket and spade flights on the odd summer weekend from CWL would make BA "British", but a significant investment generating local jobs doesn't?

I'm always surprised by the excitement generated by BACF finding things to do with their a/c when LCY is shut.
Because people judge airlines by the routes they fly not where there maintenance bases are.

Because it's a chance for many to see the BA brand flying from their local airport in many cases and many hope it will lead to more in the future maybe even permanent bases at some airport's.

[SWBKCB]

Ok - you guys see it as a strategic move, the start of BA's return to the regions, and I'll see it as a tactical move, a 'nice little earner', and we can agree to differ... :ok:

[LAX_LHR]

Don’t strategy and tactics mean the same sort of thing?

But anyway, I see it the same as you. It’s a nice earner for BA, but out of all the airports they could have operated from, they primarily chose the U.K. regions, and said regions seem to be paying off otherwise they wouldn’t have returned next summer, never made expanded.

And of course it is the start of a return to the U.K. regions. Even as little as 2 years ago, if you has said the likes of Manchester would see 30 odd flights a week that didn’t touch London, there would have been doubt, but here we are. It doesn’t matter if people look down their nose and see this as nothing more than ‘using an otherwise idle aircraft’, the fact that this seems to be bringing in revenue for both the airports and BA, I don’t think those guys will be loosing sleep that they are seen as having a lowly weekend operation using aircraft that can’t use their usual airport of choice.....

[inOban]

There are fewer business meetings on Fridays. Hence the they can reduce the number of LCY flights, at least on the morning. From EDI one a/c does a PMI rotation early on a Friday, although it returns to LCY duties for the Friday afternoon weekend traffic. (Actually it's the only BACF flight on the public timetable - the other holiday rotations are all charters) IAG are simply making best use of their assets.

[LAX_LHR]

Never mind.......

[Skipness One Echo]

Don’t strategy and tactics mean the same sort of thing?

No, they’re two differing attributes, a good strategic planner can command way more in market. A tactical delivery specialist often comes in when the KPI needs to be met and the strategy doesn’t quite pan out!
I can’t get excited about this, I remind myself of BA’s ongoing ineptness at anything outside of London, think wistfully of what happened to Manx and Brymon not to mention BA Regional and couple that with “If LCY had extended hours, would Didsbury (are they still based there?) even be interested in Manchester?”

[LAX_LHR]

Yes Cityflyer are still based in Didsbury.

If LHR had more slots would BA still have the Gatwick hub.
If Easyjet had gotten into Manchester earlier would they have still served Liverpool?
If LaGuardia didn’t have the perimeter rule, would they see more long range flights?

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. No point dwelling on what ifs. This is the situation we have, and it seems to be working well.

If the rest of you want to look down your noses, or stubbornly refuse to believe anything than this purely being a ‘spare aircraft’ situation, go for it, knock yourself out.

However, Bristol, Birmingham and Manchester can continue to enjoy their moment that BA has seen some potential outside of London or purely linking London to the regions in those airports, and whether it’s down to a fluke circumstance or not, it brings in revenue, passengers and more options for those airports, so as said, I don’t think they will be loosing sleep that some enthusiasts see the flights as some almost ‘pitty’ offering.....

[MerchantVenturer]

BRS did a full season of flights in 2017 with 4 destinations. Some of the destinations will be increased in S18 with mutterings of extra destinations served.
The FLR rotation in S17 was a E170 but the rest were E190.I think the FLR rotation to be upgraded to a E190 in S18
This is the BACF schedule from BRS in summer 18.

Saturday
BA7340 AGP 0105 BRS 0245
BA7023 BRS 0615 PMI 0940
BA7022 PMI 1025 BRS 1155
BA7016 FLR 1105 BRS 1225
BA7021 BRS 1245 AGP 1625
BA7017 BRS 1310 FLR 1625
BA7020 AGP 1715 BRS 1900
BA7019 BRS 1945 IBZ 2310
BA7018 IBZ 2355 BRS 0120 (Sun)

Sunday
BA7021 BRS 0625 AGP 1005

Apart from timings where in summer 17 each flight came in to BRS and then out again whereas in summer 18 an E190 will be 'based' at the airport on Saturdays, the only other difference is an additional Malaga rotation each week that gets the aircraft into BRS early on Saturday mornings and out again early on Sunday mornings.

Although the BRS press release says all flights will be on the E190 the web booking page shows the Florence as an E170 as was the case in summer 17. This is the only route not operated by the 'based' E190.

[Skipness One Echo]

Yes Cityflyer are still based in Didsbury.
If LHR had more slots would BA still have the Gatwick hub.
If Easyjet had gotten into Manchester earlier would they have still served Liverpool?
If LaGuardia didn’t have the perimeter rule, would they see more long range flights?

BA have a p2p base at LGW with some limited long haul feed. The LGW hub was dismantled as they couldn’t make it work.
EZY serve both GLA and EDI so yes, I suspect LPL would still be served. They even serve STN/LTN/SEN as well as LGW, so different model IMHO.
No one’s getting knocked out, but by the same token, some people get a little carried away and misty eyed at the sight of that Union Flag fin. They’ve pretty much managed to sew up LCY, growth potential is now limited, especially given the markets they’ve tried and given up on. So any major growth targets will be elsewhere, so foot in the water and all and good luck to them.

Maybe they’ll get those A321NEO IAG is buying and make a return to MAN/BHX/GLA-JFK? There’s a growth target! (I am joking but who knows?)

[LAX_LHR]

How is posting a timetable and commenting on the fact it’s growth ‘getting carried away’.

Seems you agree slightly in that this could lead to more in the future, so all is well in the world then.

[richardwpprn]

Interesting that there are no Spring non LON non ski weekend flights planned.

[LAX_LHR]

The MAN flights go to mid April, which is about normal for ski flights. A lot of the other ski flights end around that I’ve too, including the Austrian to Innsbruck from various U.K. airports, and MAN/BHX-SZG to name a few.

[richardwpprn]

AGP-XXX-AGP flights at the weekend could start at the end of March.

[Plane.Silly]

Getting frisked at the airport takes a whole new meaning at this base...

[LAX_LHR]

Sorry, just re-read your post, lots of ‘no’ and ‘non’ for a short sentence lol. To answer your question, maybe one for the future? Possibly ALC/FAO/AGP at best?

[Jerry123]

AGP-XXX-AGP flights at the weekend could start at the end of March.

Where is XXX? CWL? NCL? LBA? INV? BHX? MAN? SOU? BRS? BHD?

[nguba]

MAN-FLR, EDI-FLR and a weekly MAN-DUB service have been officially announced:

British Airways - MORE FLYING, AIRCRAFT AND JOBS FOR REGIONAL OPERATION (http://mediacentre.britishairways.com/pressrelease/details/86/2017-228/9043?ref=Home)

[richardwpprn]

Looks like EDI-FLR will be operated by E170 aircraft doing LCY-EDI-FLR-EDI.

[LAX_LHR]

MAN-FLR will also be an E170 (as will BRS-FLR be), using an E170 from the FLR end of the route.

BHX-FLR will be an E190 using the aircraft from the BHX end of the route.

[BAladdy]

BACF announced back on the 07DEC17 the following frequency changes to there W17 and S18 schedule.

W17 changes from 22JAN18 to 24MAR18

DUB - Frequency will Increase from up to 32 to up to 36 x Weekly.
FRA - Frequency will Increase from up to 20 to up to 24 x Weekly.
LIN - Frequency will Increase from up to 11 to up to 23 x Weekly.
EDI - Frequency will Reduce from up to 57 to up to 53 x Weekly.

BACF will lease a E70 from T3 during from 22JAN to 24MAR. The aircraft will be used operate the following flights:

Mon-Fri

BA7301/BA7302 - LCY-LIN-LCY
BA4455/BA4456 - LCY-RTM-LCY
BA7305/BA7306 - LCY-LIN-LCY

Sat - BA7301/BA7302 - LCY-LIN-LCY
Sun - BA7305/BA7306 - LCY-LIN-LCY

S18 changes from 25MAR18

DUB - Frequency will Increase from up to 28 to up to 32 x Weekly.
FRA - Frequency will Increase from up to 22 to up to 26 x Weekly.
LIN - Frequency will Increase from up to 11 to up to 22 x Weekly.
EDI - Frequency will Reduce from up to 56 to up to 52 x Weekly.

Further changes are likely in the coming weeks

Just noticed that RTM is showing as currently operating up to 37 x Weekly. Is this the same frequency as last winter. Frequency appears to continue through the first couple of months of S18 schedule

[Jaq]

Is it me or am I missing something?
Cityflyer for years now, have been nibbling away at Big BA’s routes.
Are BA are missing what the management are up to?
Now Cityflyer are doing LGW routes and BA’s BALPA are fine with this. Are they really so dumb.
Cityflyers are cheaper so managers are happy to keep edging they into BA routes.
Are BA BALPA blind. They should have CF guys on BA seniority list.
Dumb or what?

[wiggy]

Now Cityflyer are doing LGW routes and BA’s BALPA are fine with this.

According to the BA BALPA head shed it's not a permanent arrangement. Yes, BACF and other operator(s) are picking up the work temporarily on behalf of BA, but supposedly that protects LGW slots for BA use, with promise of more Mainline commands at LGW inside the year and possibly some of the slots being protected by the temporary arrangement Mainline Longhaul use.....

It's probably either that or another Qatari bout of short haul ops into/out of London.

They should have CF guys on BA seniority list.

Uh oh.....just like the last merging of lists, which some still haven't recovered from, that's another "merge" that wouldn't be controversial at all...:bored:

( Wonders off thinking about "zippers" ...........no, not that sort...)

[Skipness One Echo]

Don't BA need to pay CitiFlyer for operating out of LGW on behalf of mainline? They're covering mainline just like Qatar or Jettime have done in recent times. The SCOPE clause would only kick in if CFE were ever to operate "normally" for BA out of LGW, then they're undercutting mainline and you have an industrial relations issue/

[Porky Speedpig]

Is it me or am I missing something?
Cityflyer for years now, have been nibbling away at Big BA’s routes.
Are BA are missing what the management are up to?
Now Cityflyer are doing LGW routes and BA’s BALPA are fine with this. Are they really so dumb.
Cityflyers are cheaper so managers are happy to keep edging they into BA routes.
Are BA BALPA blind. They should have CF guys on BA seniority list.
Dumb or what?

It isn't uncontrolled nibbling, all very co-ordinated and BA makes the senior management appointments to CFE. A good example is the recent cessation of LHR-ORY and the start up of LCY-ORY on the same day. LHR slots redeployed for something more efficient.

[BAladdy]

Have read on a couple of forums and on the BA thread on this site that BACF are to op mainline services during S18

However the only details I can find online regarding BACF operating for mainline is in regard to the weekend LGW to AMS and EDI from mid Feb to end of the current winter schedule.

Does anyone have any info on whether or not BACF will be op ex LGW beyond the 24MAR18?

[The96er]

Summer schedules have not been released yet. Cityflyer are to do AMS and EDI from 10th Feb to 24th Mar from LGW. There's also a scheduled flight to TRN and GLA on the 24 Mar.

[richardwpprn]

MAN-SZG is returning for the ski season in December, any other new routes from MAN for the winter.

[LAX_LHR]

Looks to be just LCY/CMF/SZG ex-MAN again this winter. The only extra slots BA have applied for at MAN is to increase LHR and start a new Sun Air route to Oslo.

[The96er]

The only extra slots BA have applied for at MAN is to increase LHR and start a new Sun Air route to Oslo.

The LHR schedule ex MAN for winter is currently showing quite significant reductions over last winters ops at the moment. This could be that the schedule is still work in progress, but at the moment, the second nightstopper that operates in winter is showing operating in only a few days of the week. Some days are showing as low as 6/day mid week as opposed to 9/day last year.

[LAX_LHR]

Could be a work in progress then as they have applied for 64 extra slots this winter (but of course may not use those extra slots). Sun Air have applied for 264 extra slots this winter to facilitate OSL.

[virginblue]

Has BACF AOG? I am right now at LCY and they are cancelling as if there is no tomorrow - flights to AMS, GLA, FRA, TXL, GVA all cancelled

[planedrive]

Have you seen the weather?

[virginblue]

Sure, I was in the middle of it. But as noone else was cancelling (except a Lufthansa and a Flybe flight) and most of the BA cancellations were hours in advance, what exactly was BACFs problem?

[FRatSTN]

I don't know for certain, but guessing the BACF's mostly night-stop in LCY. If they all departed they'd probably have struggled to get them all back in again, meaning they'd have aircraft displaced for this morning also. All the non-based airlines will of course try to get out wherever possible, they don't want to be stuck in LCY when they need to be in say AMS, DUB etc. for this morning.

[virginblue]

I don't know for certain, but guessing the BACF's mostly night-stop in LCY. If they all departed they'd probably have struggled to get them all back in again, meaning they'd have aircraft displaced for this morning also. All the non-based airlines will of course try to get out wherever possible, they don't want to be stuck in LCY when they need to be in say AMS, DUB etc. for this morning.

I noticed that BACF had scheduled three flights to GLA after 9 pm, presumably to position aircraft for weekend flights?

I was asking if they are short of aircraft as I noticed G-LCYL at SEN in the morning plus an all white E170 (Eastern?)

[ELondonPax]

Lots of Cityflyer crew are Scottish base. So those evening flights to Glasgow get crew home, they carry folk heading to Scotland for the weekend (they're usually well loaded) and position the aircraft ready for the Barrhead work over the weekend.
The cancellations last evening left lots of folk stranded, including my partner who wasn't best pleased to get up in the middle of the night so he could get the first train out of Euston!

[Welshtraveller]

Why was the Bristol to Florence flight cancelled?

This flight is always delayed, I had a nightmare of a flight last month. In addition to delays on both journeys the pilot removed all hold baggage from the plane as the aircraft was too heavy. I was a fan of British Airways but not anymore unfortunately.

[TartinTon]

FLR is a poor choice of airport. Unfortunately its short runway and susceptibility to inclement weather mean that a disproportionate number of flights end up getting cancelled or diverting to PSA. Hopefully once the runway extension is built it will alleviate the situation to some degree.
Depending on the operating aircraft type, some operators get more penalised than others.

[virginblue]

Lots of Cityflyer crew are Scottish base. So those evening flights to Glasgow get crew home, they carry folk heading to Scotland for the weekend (they're usually well loaded) and position the aircraft ready for the Barrhead work over the weekend.

Thanks for the info - I was not aware that this Friday schedule to GLA is not the exception, but the norm:
BA8730 LCY 21:00 - 22:20 GLA
BA8740 LCY 21:15 - 22:35 GLA
BA2210 LCY 21:30 - 22:50 GLA

[Welshtraveller]

FLR is a poor choice of airport. Unfortunately its short runway and susceptibility to inclement weather mean that a disproportionate number of flights end up getting cancelled or diverting to PSA. Hopefully once the runway extension is built it will alleviate the situation to some degree.
Depending on the operating aircraft type, some operators get more penalised than others.

Thanks, will definitely learn by my mistake and fly to Pisa next time. The incoming aircraft from London City to Florence arrived on time on a sunny day. The flight to Bristol was delayed 3hrs and all bags were offloaded as the aircraft was too heavy. Boarded twice and even got to the edge of the runway, passengers had to return to terminal as more fuel had to be added. I don’t think the small aircraft (Embraer 170] could cope with the jouney. Bags eventually came a week later which was another nightmare.

On a separate note does anyone know BAs response times to deal with delayed compensation claims? I completed the form at the end of June but haven’t heard anything.

[MerchantVenturer]

Why was the Bristol to Florence flight cancelled?

This flight is always delayed, I had a nightmare of a flight last month. In addition to delays on both journeys the pilot removed all hold baggage from the plane as the aircraft was too heavy. I was a fan of British Airways but not anymore unfortunately.


Looking at FR24 E170 G-LCYG operated LCY-FLR three hours late this morning. It then operated FLR-BRS arriving at the latter at 1544 (sched arrival 1225). Instead of returning to FLR with Italy-bound passengers from BRS the flight is shown as cancelled.

All that is shown for the aircraft on FR24's aircraft flight history page is that it departed BRS at 1647 this afternoon with no destination shown. The page shows its next work as STN-FLR tomorrow morning so I'm assuming it went there from BRS.

The BRS website arrivals page shows the FLR-BRS as 'Arrived' but there is no information regarding its deparure on the airport's departures page except the unhelpful note 'Go to Departures' which has been in place since this afternoon.

A poster on another website who was due to travel with his family today said he received an app message from the airline saying today's FLR-BRS was cancelled.

Could this have been a crew hours issue bearing in mind the late running of the earlier sectors?

[Welshtraveller]

Could this have been a crew hours issue bearing in mind the late running of the earlier sectors?

Yes, I think your correct as the crew must have been out of hours due to the delay and the London City to Florence & Florence to Bristol sector. I feel sorry for the poor passengers once again.

[bravoromeosierra]

Last weekend's flight was delayed overnight from Saturday afternoon to Sunday morning too, not good performance!

[Tranceaddict]

Last weekend's flight was delayed overnight from Saturday afternoon to Sunday morning too, not good performance!

that was due to a ground handling strike in FLR, not a BA issue, at least it went, the STN rotation was cancelled

[richardwpprn]

Looks like tonight’s arrival from JMK to LCY is delayed beyond the curfew and likely to be diverted to SEN or STN.

[WHBM]

FLR is a poor choice of airport. Unfortunately its short runway and susceptibility to inclement weather .
It doesn't really gel, criticising a carrier based at London City, of all places, for operating to an airport with a short runway and liable to weather disruption ...

[hi_fly]

Anyone know why today’s BA7017 from BRS to FLR is scheduled to be close to 3 hours late again despite the LCY flight carrying only a marginal delay? Appears to have got held up in FLR.

Flying this route from BRS next Saturday and rather worried about it!

[Welshtraveller]

Anyone know why today’s BA7017 from BRS to FLR is scheduled to be close to 3 hours late again despite the LCY flight carrying only a marginal delay? Appears to have got held up in FLR.

Flying this route from BRS next Saturday and rather worried about it!

I don't know about today’s flight but I wish you the best of luck as the flight is always delayed or cancelled, sorry I can't be more positive.

When I travelled on the same flight in June the outgoing flight was 2hrs late due to the late arrival of the aircraft.

The return journey from Florence to Bristol was horrendous. The incoming aircraft from London City arrived at Florence on time and boarded the flight to Bristol with no problems. Travelled to the end of the runway and waited for 1hr. The pilot said the aircraft was too heavy and we had to return to stand to add more fuel and disembark the aircraft. 3hrs later boarded for the second time and the pilot announced that the plane was still heavy so he left all of the hold bags behind. As you can imagine everyone was unhappy.

On arrival at Bristol completed lost baggage forms (they were not lost, more like deliberately left behind) and the bags arrived the following Friday, 6.5 days later. I suggest you pack some essential items as hand baggage just in case the same happens to you. I noticed the outgoing flight last Saturday was cancelled, I think the crew were out of hours. It appears the same crew operates the three flights so if there is a big delay they will cancel the last flight.

On the positive side, Florence is beautiful. Have a great time and good luck with the flights.

Update:- Today’s flight from Bristol to Florence has been cancelled for the 2nd consecutive week.

[hi_fly]

Thanks for the response and sorry to hear about your experience - not good!

And yes...saw that it was cancelled in the end today presumably due to crew being out of hours. It’s a poor performance for a flight that only operates once a week.

[Welshtraveller]

Thanks for the response and sorry to hear about your experience - not good!

And yes...saw that it was cancelled in the end today presumably due to crew being out of hours. It’s a poor performance for a flight that only operates once a week.

Hope the flight works out well next week. Please share your experience when you return. Enjoy Florence.

[MerchantVenturer]

Last week the BRS-FLR sector was cancelled because, it was presumed, crewing hours were an issue after the FLR-BRS sector landed at the latter nearly three and a half hours late. Today the FLR-BRS sector landed at BRS either 76 minutes late or 78 minutes late, depending on whether FR24 or the BRS website is the more accurate.

As has been said, the BRS-FLR sector was then cancelled. Do airlines now operate to such tight crewing schedules that a delay of just over an hour will put crews 'out of hours'?

[WHBM]

I saw this go, on time, from LCY, at 0700 this morning. It overnights there and seems to start on time, then sits in Florence for hours for some reason.

Today’s flight from Bristol to Florence has been cancelled for the 2nd consecutive week.Seems third consecutive week - not just 4 Aug and 28 Jul, but 21 Jul as well, when the inbound had arrived at Bristol just 50 minutes late. Only a three sector day, not four, so not quite apparent how the crew can be out of hours. It then overnights at Florence and does a return Stansted on Sunday morning, and then back to LCY.

Being off from LCY to Skiathos JSI in a couple of weeks, a significantly longer sector, beyond Athens, we hope for the best ...

[Logohu]

Yesterday they hired a Carpatair F100 to do the IBZ-MAN flight. Perhaps Cityflyer has been overly optimistic with their scheduling of the Embraers, or there is a broken one somewhere

[FL370 Officeboy]

Last week the BRS-FLR sector was cancelled because, it was presumed, crewing hours were an issue after the FLR-BRS sector landed at the latter nearly three and a half hours late. Today the FLR-BRS sector landed at BRS either 76 minutes late or 78 minutes late, depending on whether FR24 or the BRS website is the more accurate.

As has been said, the BRS-FLR sector was then cancelled. Do airlines now operate to such tight crewing schedules that a delay of just over an hour will put crews 'out of hours'?

Yes they do. They then assume the already knackered crew will just carry on deep into discretion to bail out their flawed planning.

[Welshtraveller]

Yes they do. They then assume the already knackered crew will just carry on deep into discretion to bail out their flawed planning.


That’s awful. BA was one of my favourite airlines but not anymore. I notice the cancelled flight to Florence stayed in BRS overnight and travelled to STN this morning. I can’t understand why yesterdays Bristol to Florence flight was cancelled as the incoming flight only arrived 1hr 15min late. My incoming flight arrived 2hrs late last month and the flight still departed. Perhaps there was another reason for the cancellation.

[frontcheck]

And equally knackered ground staff dealing with delayed , cancelled and flights arriving with NO baggage.
Why schedule an aircraft on a route if its not within its capabilities.

[WHBM]

But Bristol to Florence is quite within its capabilities. Its not like there's a short departure runway as there is at LCY earlier in its day's rotation.

Back in the supposedly "bad old days" of IT flights at least the various flights were carried out, maybe late if the inbound was so. If there happened to be insufficient performance on the day (like One-Elevens operating to Tenerife) then a fuel stop was arranged. But this is only 725nm, less than half the E-170s typical max payload range.

[hi_fly]

So I made it across to FLR today on BA7017 from BRS but landed 2 hours late.

The morning LCY departure left 90 mins late due to a a cabin crew member calling in sick. A further 30 minute delay at BRS was due to an 5 unaccounted for bags being loaded which needed sorting.

I spoke to the cabin crew who were excellent. When I queried when they’d go out of hours they said they had already as they had come in on an early flight from Milan and volunteered for the FLR/BRS legs. This meant the LCY-FLR-BRS-FLR flights could operate but they’d end up working close to 13 hours!

Given this flight has been cancelled a few weeks in row I was happy to make it over...all down to a dedicated crew who volunteered at LCY. This route is certainly not without its challenges!

[easyflyer83]

Crew sometimes over egg their willingness. Unless it goes into a day off..., crew are asked for their views but it’s ultimately the Captain who, under the peril of what he’s being told by the FO and cabin crew, decides whether to work into discretion or not.

it sounds like the crew here do a UK-FLR-UK-FLR-UK .... it doesn’t take long to go out of hours after that.

[Welshtraveller]

Hi Fly,

Glad the flight wasn’t cancelled and you arrived safely despite the delay. The route definitely has it’s challenges, I don’t think the crew are over egging their willingness. Sounds like they have gone above and beyond to make the flight happen. Very poor scheduling on BAs part with poor customer service with the strong chance of delays and cancellation. Please let us know what happens with the return flight. Enjoy Florence.

[WHBM]

The morning LCY departure left 90 mins late due to a a cabin crew member calling in sick .... I spoke to the cabin crew who were excellent. When I queried when they’d go out of hours they said they had already as they had come in on an early flight from Milan and volunteered for the FLR/BRS legs.
This doesn't quite seem to add up. The morning LCY-Florence is due to depart 30 minutes before the Milan gets in, in fact it departs shortly after LCY opens, so the crew must have overnighted at LCY.And if "a" crew member then called in sick, why was the whole crew replaced by one which had come in overnight from Milan. Did the whole crew call in sick ?

I have heard this one before, that someone has "called in sick", when in fact it's nothing of the sort, but a mess-up by crewing.

Do Cityflyer have some Italian-based crew ? Not an idle question; a few years ago I was surprised to find that Cityjet at LCY on the 146 also had so (after a very fluent bilingual PA announcement on one of their flights to Italy), and some of their rosters through LCY were crewed from that end. LCY is a difficult place to retain staff, as we know much of Cityflyer's hub there is actually crewed from Scotland.

It's very good that tghe crew support last-minute mess-abouts like this. One hopes that crewing and management have a similar positive attitude back to them.

[Welshtraveller]

This doesn't quite seem to add up. The morning LCY-Florence is due to depart 30 minutes before the Milan gets in, in fact it departs shortly after LCY opens, so the crew must have overnighted at LCY..

But the 7.15am flight from LCY to Florence didn't depart on time, yesterday the flight left 1hr 35min late. Sounds like they were waiting for the crew from the Milan flight so no overnight at LCY.

[WHBM]

But the 7.15am flight from LCY to Florence didn't depart on time, yesterday the flight left 1hr 35min late. Sounds like they were waiting for the crew from the Milan flight so no overnight at LCY.
Indeed. But it doesn't just tie with one crew member reporting sick that morning, if they were waiting for a whole crew.

[rog747]

But the 7.15am flight from LCY to Florence didn't depart on time, yesterday the flight left 1hr 35min late. Sounds like they were waiting for the crew from the Milan flight so no overnight at LCY.

sounds like it and possibly faster than calling in from standby (IF they even had someone on SBY - Do BACF have airport stand by crew like at BA at LHR and LGW?)

The Florence crew were possibly then used on a later flight with a standby that was called in to make up the numbers

Crewing is a nightmare (i used to do it) and although if you only have 50 pax you can go with just 1 CC member, but if you have a Club Europe load to look after as well then you def need more than 1 CC.

[rog747]

to add
to have airport standby crew is not ness the best option as the longer they sit around waiting then the less duty hours they can be used for - whereas calling from home mean max duty hours apply (but dependant on time of day etc and whether they have a day off booked next day and more)
but it was not common to roster SBY to day off

[willy wombat]

rog747 - in my day, cabin crew minimum numbers was dictated by number of seats fitted - minimum one CC per 50 seats regardless of number of pax so on a 50 (or less) seat aircraft one CC OK but a 51 seat aircraft minimum two CC. Have the rules changed? PS we could config our a/c down to 100 seats (changing 6 abreast to 5 abreast) and in extremis go with two CC and minimal service.

[WHBM]

possibly faster than calling in from standby ... The Florence crew were possibly then used on a later flight with a standby .. .
This one at least seems to have worked. The three previous weeks the first flight got away on time, but it fell apart downroute.

it sounds like the crew here do a UK-FLR-UK-FLR-UK .... it doesn’t take long to go out of hours after that. Actually not, there is no final sector back to the UK on Saturday, it's a 3 sector day, overnights in Florence, does a return trip to Stansted and back on Sunday morning, then the return to LCY once it opens on Sunday afternoon, doubtless with the same crew, another 3 sector day. It's an unusual arrangement for a holiday flight, but that's how it is.

[rog747]

rog747 - in my day, cabin crew minimum numbers was dictated by number of seats fitted - minimum one CC per 50 seats regardless of number of pax so on a 50 (or less) seat aircraft one CC OK but a 51 seat aircraft minimum two CC. Have the rules changed? PS we could config our a/c down to 100 seats (changing 6 abreast to 5 abreast) and in extremis go with two CC and minimal service.

yes that's what I said - to be clear you can go with 1 CC with up to 50 pax (regardless of seats fitted) but if a CE load was on needing a full meal and drinks service then 1 CC cannot do this and look after Y as well unless you dump the service which is not good PR

and you can go with 100 pax with 2 CC and so on . (for WB twin aisle a/c i think some different rules may apply)

[rog747]

This one at least seems to have worked. The three previous weeks the first flight got away on time, but it fell apart downroute.

Actually not, there is no final sector back to the UK on Saturday, it's a 3 sector day, overnights in Florence, does a return trip to Stansted and back on Sunday morning, then the return to LCY once it opens on Sunday afternoon, doubtless with the same crew, another 3 sector day. It's an unusual arrangement for a holiday flight, but that's how it is.

yes many pals on BA S/Haul would do say LHR-MUC-LHR then night stop JER (3 sectors)
next day may just be JER-LHR and go home or do say a FRA and back

at BMA we did roster upto 6 sector days to JER at weekends doing W's all day or say MME-LHR 3 round trips for both FD and CC

[Downwind_Left]

yes that's what I said - to be clear you can go with 1 CC with up to 50 pax (regardless of seats fitted) but if a CE load was on needing a full meal and drinks service then 1 CC cannot do this and look after Y as well unless you dump the service which is not good PR

and you can go with 100 pax with 2 CC and so on . (for WB twin aisle a/c i think some different rules may apply)

Sorry but that's incorrect. Minimum crew required is determined by seats fitted and not passengers carried. So a 76 seat E170 or 98 seat E190 both require a legal minimum of 2 cabin crew, regardless of number of passengers carried. So a single passenger carried, you'd still need 2 cabin crew on both types. Some aircraft with low density configurations will have further restrictions applied, based on door coverage etc

[willy wombat]

Thanks. I thought either the rules had changed or I was becoming senile.

[rog747]

Sorry but that's incorrect. Minimum crew required is determined by seats fitted and not passengers carried. So a 76 seat E170 or 98 seat E190 both require a legal minimum of 2 cabin crew, regardless of number of passengers carried. So a single passenger carried, you'd still need 2 cabin crew on both types. Some aircraft with low density configurations will have further restrictions applied, based on door coverage etc

ah then the rules have changed since my day - thanks for the clarification - I assume this applies to UK

if we had a 73 seat Viscount we could take 50 pax with one CC for instance

[inOban]

Incidentally the same rules apply to passenger ships. A cross-channel ferry may be licensed for 2000 passengers, and must be crewed for that even if it's carrying 200.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

My BA8729 GLA-LCY was delayed 4 hours today, G-LCYV sat unattended on 24 all that time, crewing issue? Edited : yes it was, no contingency.....

[virginblue]

LCY is a difficult place to retain staff, as we know much of Cityflyer's hub there is actually crewed from Scotland.

My excuses for the stupid question, but how does it work? Does Cityflyer shuttle them down to LCY and put them up in hotels around LCY at the airline's expense for the days they are away from Scotland?

[WHBM]

We are soon off LCY to Skiathos
Notes from beside The Aegean :

The Bank Holiday Monday Skiathos was very pleasantly organised, despite the large number of Mediterranean and other departures delayed until LCY's holiday restriction to an 0900 opening, the airport ran so well with zero holdups at the desks or security. About an 80% load. Delayed departure due to ATC near the destination restricting due to bad weather, but when we approached there was a thunderstorm right over the airfield. held offshore in a weather hole for about 30 minutes with lightning bolts visible in the distance, then a real rock-and-roll run in, perfectly on the numbers (the road in front is a sight closer than LCY's Connaught Bridge) and we were there, only aircraft on the airfield (despite which we were put on the furthest-most stand from the terminal, no kidding). Nice one, guys.

Taxi driver said that a Blue Panorama 737 inbound from Italy had diverted to Athens, which I saw later was so, losing half a day's holiday. Airport cab drivers always know the gen on this sort of scuttlebutt. I wonder if they didn't load extra fuel for extended holding.

[BAladdy]

Just read on the Eastern Airways thread that they will no longer be operating IOM-LCY route for BACF from the end of the month. Another carrier taking over operating the route for BACF with IOM crew being TUPEd to operator. Anyone know if this is true and if so who is the new operator and will flights continue to be operated by a S2000?.

[BA318]

Could it be VLM? They wanted to get into white label flying. There aren’t that many operators with 50-70 seat equipment around. Otherwise Loganair? Or perhaps Jota?

[BAladdy]

Could it be VLM? They wanted to get into white label flying. There aren’t that many operators with 50-70 seat equipment around. Otherwise Loganair? Or perhaps Jota?


The smallest aircraft in Jota’s fleet carries 95 passengers.i think that the aircraft might be to big for the route. I thought maybe Sun-Air could replace T3 they have just taken delivery of another D328 and they are already a BA franchise partner, however not sure if 32 seat D328 would be to small a aircraft for the route.

Hopefully whoever takes over the route will be more reliable than T3 have been of late

[shamrock7seal]

What has happened to domestic UK aviation?

Flybe is continually loss making
Eastern is cost cutting so much it's now basically not working operationally anymore
Flybmi is limping along but doesn't seem to know what it wants to be or do and there is no expansion on the horizon
BA Cityflyer is London centric and seems to be struggling a little with its (temporary?) UK regional weekend expansion
BA domestic is static or declining
easyJet domestic is limited to big regional airports
Aurigny is loss making
Blue islands is basically Flybe now
Stobart Air is ... well

Loganair seems to be the only airline that believes it has a bright future with some growth potential

No other airlines?

[cornishsimon]

I think skybus are doing ok ��


cs

[Flightrider]

Total thread drift (and apologies) but I don't think all is completely well at Skybus either. If you read the Friends of Isles of Scilly Transport pages, the posting on 8 July sets out some information around the Steamship Company's trading and it is not pretty reading.

Anyway, back to BACF!

[irishlad06]

Just read on the Eastern Airways thread that they will no longer be operating IOM-LCY route for BACF from the end of the month. Another carrier taking over operating the route for BACF with IOM crew being TUPEd to operator. Anyone know if this is true and if so who is the new operator and will flights continue to be operated by a S2000?.


could it be FlyBe? Soon will have an IOM base and aircraft to operate to LCY.

[AirportPlanner1]

Stobart? Currently op for BE but ending soon as BE will be taking it back in-house as mentioned above?

[euromanxdude]

Heard it will be Loganair !

[BAladdy]

Heard it will be Loganair !

Have you heard what date they are taking the route over?. Will the route continue to be operate by a S2000 or will they use a D328?

[virginblue]

Will the route continue to be operate by a S2000 or will they use a D328?


Saab 2000 could only be a step-gap measure as Loganair is keen to dispose of those asap. So after that probably an ATR42-600 that apparently has been earmarked as the type to replace the Saabs - any news on that plan and if so, when the first ATRs can be expected?.

[LGWAlan]

Amadeus shows S2000 ops LM for Cityflyer

[Haven't a clue]

BA.com now shows IOM/LCY aircraft as Saab 2000 operated by Loganair from September

[virginblue]

LCY-DUS has been operated with leased aircraft most of the time since its inauguration (initially T3 S20, now T3 E70). I understand the T3 E70 opf BACF is on its way out - so will the route be operated with BACF's own metal from now on?

[WHBM]

BA Cityflyer have been using 2 x S2000 and 1 x E170 at LCY wet leased from Eastern for quite some time. One Saab in BA colours, the other two all white. It must be a fair bit of Eastern's turnover. I believe more recently they have also been using them at Gatwick as well. The Saab in full BA Cityflyer colours seems to have gone already and one in Eastern livery is currently operating.

[cornishsimon]

The Gatwick usage of eastern was dropped due to poor reliability of the E70 and replaced with a private air 737

cs

[BA318]

BA Cityflyer will add four E190s next year and launch flights to Rome as well as other destinations (not yet announced).

British Airways - MORE ROUTES AND MORE AIRCRAFT FOR LONDON CITY (http://mediacentre.britishairways.com/pressrelease/details/86/News-1/10022)

[WHBM]

We are soon off LCY to Skiathos
Notes from beside The Aegean :

The Bank Holiday Monday Skiathos was very pleasantly organised, despite the large number of Mediterranean and other departures delayed until LCY's holiday restriction to an 0900 opening, the airport ran so well with zero holdups at the desks or security. About an 80% load. Delayed departure due to ATC near the destination restricting due to bad weather, but when we approached there was a thunderstorm right over the airfield. held offshore in a weather hole for about 30 minutes with lightning bolts visible in the distance, then a real rock-and-roll run in, perfectly on the numbers (the road in front is a sight closer than LCY's Connaught Bridge) and we were there, only aircraft on the airfield (despite which we were put on the furthest-most stand from the terminal, no kidding). Nice one, guys.

Taxi driver said that a Blue Panorama 737 inbound from Italy had diverted to Athens, which I saw later was so, losing half a day's holiday. Airport cab drivers always know the gen on this sort of scuttlebutt. I wonder if they didn't load extra fuel for extended holding.

[rog747]

WHBM
Great stuff but it usually the Italians who do 'get in' and go in very low over the road lol
Rog

[virginblue]

As BACF have been using up to three Eastern aircraft, I am not sure the additional 4 E90 will mean a lot of expanson route-wise. Probably T3's S20s will be replaced with two BACF E70 which in turn will be replaced with two of the new, larger E90 on the routes they currently serve. Same could happen to the E70 currently leased from Eastern. Unless the Loganair S20 stays on the IOM route and does not get replaced in 2019, this would mean just one additional airframe which will not have much spare capacity with two daily FCO flights plus an additional ZRH flight already scheduled.

[BA318]

As BACF have been using up to three Eastern aircraft, I am not sure the additional 4 E90 will mean a lot of expanson route-wise. Probably T3's S20s will be replaced with two BACF E70 which in turn will be replaced with two of the new, larger E90 on the routes they currently serve. Same could happen to the E70 currently leased from Eastern. Unless the Loganair S20 stays on the IOM route and does not get replaced in 2019, this would mean just one additional airframe which will not have much spare capacity with two daily FCO flights plus an additional ZRH flight already scheduled.

The Rome flight will be six weekly not twice daily. I imagine the Loganair S20 might stick around.

[virginblue]

OK, thanks. I did not check and assumed that anything less than twice weekdaily would make little sense. Realistically, a twice daily flight with a single aircraft on a route with a block-time north of 2,5hours would not be that helpful either as the first arrival into FCO (or LCY if the aircraft were to be based there) would be around noon-time and unlike Alitalia, BA has nothing to do at FCO before a second daily flight in the afternoon.

[Diverskii]

FWIW, BA (and by extension BACF) were not happy about using Eastern any more on account of the poor performance and the fact that the CAA are keeping a very close eye on Eastern at the minute.

[GLCYZ]

Apparently the four E190 are coming from China. So potentially China Southern or Tianjin?

[WHBM]

Realistically, a twice daily flight with a single aircraft on a route with a block-time north of 2,5hours would not be that helpful either as the first arrival into FCO (or LCY if the aircraft were to be based there) would be around noon-time and unlike Alitalia, BA has nothing to do at FCO before a second daily flight in the afternoon.
This is the case anyway, with a 1 hour clock change even an 0730 departure from any London airport is not going to be in to Rome before 1100 Local. For LCY the business demand is much more in morning, out evening, which is why an outstation base, plus the one hour clock change loss that way, means an 0700 departure (Rome and others having a much more constrained catchment area than South-East England) gives an 0830 arrival at LCY.

The "Alitalia would have something to do" etc argument is often incorrect, as the "something" is not defined and often will not exist. Alitalia will have its own trunk business routes already at Rome which also peak in morning and evening, with a lull in between. The fact is, a twice daily service with nothing in between may be the best financial return. So many of the operating costs, fuel, crew, nav charges, even a significant proportion of the leasing cost, are flying hours/sectors based, all of which rise with marginal time flights which at the fares you can get then are just not worthwhile.

[BAladdy]

Apparently the four E190 are coming from China. So potentially China Southern or Tianjin?

it will be interesting to see what registration the aircraft will be given. Maybe they will register them based on there other crew base with regs starting G-EDI

[LAX_LHR]

Or after where the HQ is G-MAN* (just kidding)

[HH6702]

Could always be

G-ALCY
G-BLCY
G-CLCY
G-DLCY

ALSO

[virginblue]

The "Alitalia would have something to do" etc argument is often incorrect, as the "something" is not defined and often will not exist. Alitalia will have its own trunk business routes already at Rome which also peak in morning and evening, with a lull in between. The fact is, a twice daily service with nothing in between may be the best financial return. So many of the operating costs, fuel, crew, nav charges, even a significant proportion of the leasing cost, are flying hours/sectors based, all of which rise with marginal time flights which at the fares you can get then are just not worthwhile.

Alitalia can easily use the E190 for off-peak flights on routes from FCO with multiple daily departures, e.g. to domestic destinations. Alitalia, for example, deploys E-Jets on its shuttle-like FCO-LIN route or on midday flights to PSA, BLQ or NCE. I doubt they would keep an E90 serving LCY in the morning and evening on the ground for the rest of the day.

[brian_dromey]

Could always be

G-ALCY
G-BLCY
G-CLCY
G-DLCY

ALSO

I think most airline systems use the last two or three letters to identify a particular aircraft, which is why they tend to use -LCYx or LCxx, rather than xLCY. G-ALCY and G-BLCY would both appear as "CY" in some systems. It is a hangover from early computer systems used in the industry. I don't think the CAA considers -xLCY a block of registrations either, so it might be more complicated/expensive to do.
I imagine -LCXx or LDNx might be the next series used, they both appear to be unused. Another option might be G-CFEx. G-CFEC would be a good one!

[Flightrider]

Uk registrations cannot be reused so some of the suggestions here would not work as they have already been active on other aircraft. There is only one that has ever been reused before the Caa stopped it in the early to mid 80s.

[toledoashley]

British Airways usually have registrations which have a significance... The new 320neo’s are TTN- (Three Twenty Neo), DOC- (Domestic), EU—(European), YMM—(Millenium).

My guess would be another variation on London.. LON, LDN, CIT

[BAladdy]

As BACF have been using up to three Eastern aircraft, I am not sure the additional 4 E90 will mean a lot of expanson route-wise. Probably T3's S20s will be replaced with two BACF E70 which in turn will be replaced with two of the new, larger E90 on the routes they currently serve. Same could happen to the E70 currently leased from Eastern. Unless the Loganair S20 stays on the IOM route and does not get replaced in 2019, this would mean just one additional airframe which will not have much spare capacity with two daily FCO flights plus an additional ZRH flight already scheduled.
BACF are planning to add a couple of new routes and add additional frequencies on existing routes for S19 from LCY before Christmas. I think routes that are likely to see increased frequencies for S19 will be Rome, Santorini and Skiathos.

When it comes to new routes, I think summer sun destinations such as Corsica (Bastia), Croatia (Bol, Split or Zadar), Sardinia (Alghero or Olbia) would all be very popular. I was also gonna add Maderia to that list but not sure if that would be to far for a E90.

[toledoashley]

BACF are planning to add a couple of new routes and add additional frequencies on existing routes for S19 from LCY before Christmas. I think routes that are likely to see increased frequencies for S19 will be Rome, Santorini and Skiathos.

When it comes to new routes, I think summer sun destinations such as Corsica (Bastia), Croatia (Bol, Split or Zadar), Sardinia (Alghero or Olbia) would all be very popular. I was also gonna add Maderia to that list but not sure if that would be to far for a E90.

Corsica - absolutely, but I think Cagliari and Olbia over Alghero in Sardinia. Catania in Sicily, Naples, Dubrovnik and Pula.

[LAX_LHR]

It will be interesting to see if the regions get more routes for the weekend bases too, as this is potentially 4 more aircraft that they want to see full use over the week.

MAN-FAO stands out as a potential candidate, as well as extra flights to PMI/AGP/ALC. LIN would be a nice route (a la STN) but not holding out hope for that one.

[BAladdy]

BA Cityflyer will add four E190s next year and launch flights to Rome as well as other destinations (not yet announced).

British Airways - MORE ROUTES AND MORE AIRCRAFT FOR LONDON CITY (http://mediacentre.britishairways.com/pressrelease/details/86/News-1/10022)
The article says that the aircraft will be added to the fleet during 2019. Does anyone know when the expect the first aircraft to enter service and how many of them are expected to be in service prior to July next year?.

[virginblue]

BACF are planning to add a couple of new routes and add additional frequencies on existing routes for S19 from LCY before Christmas. I think routes that are likely to see increased frequencies for S19 will be Rome, Santorini and Skiathos.

When it comes to new routes, I think summer sun destinations such as Corsica (Bastia), Croatia (Bol, Split or Zadar), Sardinia (Alghero or Olbia) would all be very popular. I was also gonna add Maderia to that list but not sure if that would be to far for a E90.

BACF will, however, need to find work for the additional aircraft on MTuWeTh before they can think about adding highly seasonal leisure destinations on FrSaSu. So in addition to increasing frequencies to some long-served destinations (and possibly Rome), one or two additional business destinations must be on the cards. In Austria, there is talk about Vienna which is an obvipus gap in LCY's network. Not sure about other destinations, as the more obvious ones have either failed in the past (ARN, CPH, OSL, BCN) or been snapped up by others recently (WAW, BUD). MUC and/or PRG would be a long-shot, assuming that BACF will not be interested in routes with less than 50.000 annual pax like ANR and BRN that are up for grabs.

[BA318]

BACF will, however, need to find work for the additional aircraft on MTuWeTh before they can think about adding highly seasonal leisure destinations on FrSaSu. So in addition to increasing frequencies to some long-served destinations (and possibly Rome), one or two additional business destinations must be on the cards. In Austria, there is talk about Vienna which is an obvipus gap in LCY's network. Not sure about other destinations, as the more obvious ones have either failed in the past (ARN, CPH, OSL, BCN) or been snapped up by others recently (WAW, BUD). MUC and/or PRG would be a long-shot, assuming that BACF will not be interested in routes with less than 50.000 annual pax like ANR and BRN that are up for grabs.

PRG is already being served now 6 weekly I think. VIE was flown by Austrian for a season with a Fokker 70 but didn't last.

[virginblue]

PRG is already being served now 6 weekly I think. VIE was flown by Austrian for a season with a Fokker 70 but didn't last.

You are of course correct regarding Prague.

VIE was in 2011, IIRC. The flight times were, from memory, awful. Arrival into VIE after 11 pm etc. Almost a decade later and with better timings, it might work.

Looks as if BACF really is running out of business destination they could add. They already serve almost all important ones, have tried a few more supposedly important ones that did not work out and do not have the right-sized equipment for some of the smaller markets with potential. Looking at a map of Europe, maybe E70s to BSL, LYS, MUC if we rule out Scandinavia which has not worked again and again in the past.

[BA318]

I still find the ARN route strange. It went up to three daily just before it was dropped and while only an anecdote, it was always full when I used it and prices were never that cheap. With the loss of the 767 on the route from LHR next year, perhaps there's room for the route to return.

[WHBM]

Well done Cityflyer crew

Returned Dublin to City on evening of Wednesday 19th. Very disorganised in Dublin airport following the storm passing through ... but a major airport should do better than this. FIDS not being kept updated so the current departures were not shown although there were plenty of earlier delayed flights up on there, now shown as departed but not cleared off to allow the current ones to scroll up. Go To Gate eventually shown, even though the inbound aircraft, disorganised from earlier Dublin rotations, had not left LCY yet (if I can find that out why can't the information team). Gate we were to "Go To" completely unmanned until one hour after scheduled departure {Dublin Handling, you owe me for being your information officer to everyone else). Had been snapped at by the Club Europe handling agent at check-in. Security quere screen states "QUEUE LESS THAN (big letters)30 minutes (little letters)", trying to minimise a 30 minute wait with two-thirds of the expensive checking stations unstaffed and closed.. Restaurants overwhelmed and a mess.

Anyway, aircraft finally arrives, turned round, big queue at the Hold for departures, finally get off at about 2140, nearly 2 hours late. Flying time 50 minutes on a good day. Now LCY closes on the dot of 2230, due to its planning permission regulation. But the guys up front, doubtless with good help from ATC, get as direct a routing into the 28 Final as I've seen for years, nose towards home, we set down at ... 2226. Phew ! And instead of being sent to Stansted, I'm 5 minutes from home.

Thank you !

[BA318]

BA are launching 3 daily LCY-MUC flights using E190 from Feb 2019

[shamrock7seal]

Some discussion on the SOU thread about potential new flights there by BA CItyFlyer. Any chance?

[SWBKCB]

As far as I am aware there has been no indication that they are planning to change the current business model.

[canberra97]

Some discussion on the SOU thread about potential new flights there by BA CItyFlyer. Any chance?

The discussion on the SOU thread regarding BACF was only about them being a potential addition to the airport in a similar way to how they operate from BHX, BRS, MAN and STN especially now that they have acquired four additional EMB190's.

It wasn't regarding BACF offering a similar network to LCY although in reality that would be fantastic for the airport but I think we're mature enough to understand that it won't happen but a similar exercise to the regional weekend flying I could see being a possibility in the future.

[GayFriendly]

Apparently all routes being dropped next summer along with BRS.

A case of too much being spread too thinly over the summer weekends? Poor loads and yield? A crewing and operational nightmare in terms of crew hours, HOTAC etc?

The FLR in particular seemed to do very well from BHX in terms of plain numbers of bums on seats.

It is very disappointing news for BHX which has been haemorrhaging airlines in the last 12 months. I thought with additional aircraft arriving at BACF there might have even been a small increase in flights at BHX next summer. Of course the MAG group MAN and STN operations survive...

[southside bobby]

MAG group MAN and STN are a considerable market force generally...

[BAladdy]

Apparently all routes being dropped next summer along with BRS.

A case of too much being spread too thinly over the summer weekends? Poor loads and yield? A crewing and operational nightmare in terms of crew hours, HOTAC etc?

The FLR in particular seemed to do very well from BHX in terms of plain numbers of bums on seats.

Load factor this summer on the flights form both BRS and BHX to AGP & PMI was up slightly compared to last year. However yields were very poor. This is why these routes have been pulled.

Flights to FLR from both airports operated with quite high load factors, however not sure what the yields were like.

[RealFish]

Apparently all routes being dropped next summer along with BRS...

...It is very disappointing news for BHX which has been haemorrhaging airlines in the last 12 months. I thought with additional aircraft arriving at BACF there might have even been a small increase in flights at BHX next summer. Of course the MAG group MAN and STN operations survive...

BHX (and passengers) can feel especially peeved, given that BHX > FLR was outperforming MAN both in terms of raw numbers and load factors (94%+ in Jul and Aug - around the same as STN). As the fares were 'reassuringly expensive' there is no reason to suggest that yields were any lower than those surviving routes. This probably points to the logistics of getting aircraft to Brum and perhaps weakness of the other sectors; Malaga and Palma.

There were other routes, though, that BACF could have gone for - uncontested routes that were lost with Monarch; Lisbon (c. 5,000 passengers per month) and Nice (c. 3,000) for example.

Like GF, I had hoped for some expansion at BHX - even perhaps for mainline to step in with a 319 on FLR and perhaps LIS or NCE.

[EDIT: On reflection, while 319's regularly fly into FLR, I'm not sure that BA's subtypes would be able to get in and out]

[virginblue]

So with Stobart operating two Embraer 190 on behalf of BACF soon, does that mean that the expansion announced for 2019 with, IIRC, four additional aircraft will be covered by 2 BACF + 2 Stobart E190s or will it be be 4 BACF an Stobart's 2 E190s are counted as a replacement for the 2 Eastern Airways airframes? (and Loganair on LCY-IOM is just a step gap measure as they will be soon shedding the Saab 2000 anyway)

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know why the E90 Leased from Stobart has not operated for BA since 20th December and it has been operating for BE from SEN since then. I thought the leased aircraft had been schedule to operate for BACF for through the Winter schedule

[cornishsimon]

Have CityFlyer reduced frequencies over the two week Christmas slow down?


cs

[inOban]

Of course. Little business traffic for over two weeks, and BA are in business.

[BAladdy]

BACF have made some changes to there S19 schedule from EDI and LCY over recently. Details shown below:

Edinburgh

Florence - Will increase to 2 x Weekly, with a flights added on a Saturday operate by a E90. Sunday flight will continue to be operated by a E70

Palma - Frequency remains weekly. Flights will move from operating on a Friday to a Saturday

London City

Milan Linate - 23 x Weekly service will be suspended from 27JUL-27OCT due to LIN runway closure
Milan Malpensa - NEW 11 x Weekly service will introduced from 28JUL.

BA7301 LCY 06:50 MXP 09:50 E90 x67
BA7305 LCY 16:15 MXP 19:10 E90 x6

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​BA7302 MXP 11:10 LCY 12:05 E90 x67
​​​​​​​​​​​​​​BA7306 MXP 19:55 LCY 20:50 E90 x6
​​​​​​​
Mykonos - Frequency will increase to up to 6 x Weekly with a additional flights being added on a Thursday. Flights operate:

2 x Weekly (Mon/Fri) - 17MAY to 16JUN & 07SEP to 27SEP
5 x Weekly (Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri/Sun) 17JUN to 23JUN
6 x Weekly (Sun-Fri) 24JUN to 06SEP

Skiathos - Frequency will increase to 4 x weekly with a additional flights added on a Friday. Route operates 24JUN to 06SEP

Split - NEW 3 x Weekly seasonal service will operate 21JUN to 06SEP

BA7337 LCY 14:10 SPU 17:45 E90 5
BA7337 LCY 14:55 SPU 18:30 E90 14

BA7336 SPU 18:30 LCY 20:05 E90 5
BA7336 SPU 19:20 LCY 20:55 E90 14

[pamann]

BAladdy

Do you have the Stansted programme for this summer?

[WHBM]

BACF are certainly proactive in flexing schedules by the day, week, and holiday period to reflect differences in demand, their commercial team seem very good at predicting demand.

I remember the old VLM at London City used to just do the Antwerp flights with one aircraft, departing at 0800, 1100, 1400, 1700 and 2000, on all weekdays. While good for aircraft utilisation and simple to schedule, it in no way reflects demand which rises and falls on quite a different curve, and as a result there were some rotations regularly pretty empty both ways. Note VLM are no longer with us, BACF are.

[virginblue]

BACF are certainly proactive in flexing schedules by the day, week, and holiday period to reflect differences in demand, their commercial team seem very good at predicting demand.

I remember the old VLM at London City used to just do the Antwerp flights with one aircraft, departing at 0800, 1100, 1400, 1700 and 2000, on all weekdays. While good for aircraft utilisation and simple to schedule, it in no way reflects demand which rises and falls on quite a different curve, and as a result there were some rotations regularly pretty empty both ways. Note VLM are no longer with us, BACF are.

I think the comparison is a bit unfair. There is no way VLM could have done with their Fokker 50 what BACF is able to do with the EJets which can go to leisure destinations around the Med. VLM did try stuff that was practical with a Fokker 50, such as noon-time flights to JER and IOM, but realistically options to complement bread and butter business destinations from LCY with a turboprop were (and are) somewhat limited.

[BAladdy]

BAladdy

Do you have the Stansted programme for this summer?
Destinations with frequency changes shown in RedStansted S19 Flights
Berlin - 1x weekly
Faro - 1 x weekly
Florence - Frequency reduced from 2 to 1 x weekly. Sunday rotation op S18 will not op S19
Ibiza - Frequency reduced to Weekly for S19. Flights op 3 x weekly ex IBZ and 2 x weekly ex STN S18
Malaga - Frequency increased from 1 to 2 x weekly. Additional rotation shown below in Blue

BA2293 STN 05:55 AGP 10:00 E90 7
BA2293 STN 16:25 AGP 20:25 E90 6

BA2336 AGP 14:25 STN 16:20 E90 6
BA2292 AGP 21:10 STN 23:05 E90 6

Nice - 1 x Weekly

[pamann]

Destinations with frequency changes shown in RedStansted S19 Flights
Berlin - 1x weekly
Faro - 1 x weekly
Florence - Frequency reduced from 2 to 1 x weekly. Sunday rotation op S18 will not op S19
Ibiza - Frequency reduced to Weekly for S19. Flights op 3 x weekly ex IBZ and 2 x weekly ex STN S18
Malaga - Frequency increased from 1 to 2 x weekly. Additional rotation shown below in Blue

BA2293 STN 05:55 AGP 10:00 E90 7
BA2293 STN 16:25 AGP 20:25 E90 6

BA2336 AGP 14:25 STN 16:20 E90 6
BA2292 AGP 21:10 STN 23:05 E90 6

Nice - 1 x Weekly



Thanks for the update.

[BA318]

BA Cityflyer are dropping LCY-Paris Orly from the end of May. LCY now doesn't have a Paris service.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/bu...qPBUDe7ejcLvi4 (https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/02/22/british-airways-to-suspend-london-city-paris-orly-route/?fbclid=IwAR1XLP3io0Xh3n5-NckBlgOo_na-ArrA6K_PYjFbTrTNkqPBUDe7ejcLvi4)

[BAladdy]

BACF are planning to use a RJ85 leased from Jota to operate flights from 1st April through to mid July. The aircraft will operate for BACF Monday to Thursday.

A second aircraft is to be leased from WDL for the month of May. The BAe146-200 will be mostly used on the ORY service.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/283108/ba-cityflyer-outlines-leased-bae146avro-rj-operations-in-2q19/

[BAladdy]

Destinations with frequency changes shown in RedStansted S19 Flights
Berlin - 1x weekly
Faro - 1 x weekly
Florence - Frequency reduced from 2 to 1 x weekly. Sunday rotation op S18 will not op S19
Ibiza - Frequency reduced to Weekly for S19. Flights op 3 x weekly ex IBZ and 2 x weekly ex STN S18
Malaga - Frequency increased from 1 to 2 x weekly. Additional rotation shown below in Blue

BA2293 STN 05:55 AGP 10:00 E90 7
BA2293 STN 16:25 AGP 20:25 E90 6

BA2336 AGP 14:25 STN 16:20 E90 6
BA2292 AGP 21:10 STN 23:05 E90 6

Nice - 1 x Weekly

Faro - 1 x weekly service will not operate for a 4 week period from 23JUN to 14JUL inclusive.
Mykonos - Weekly service added for S19.
Nice - Weekly service planned for S19 will no longer operate
Palma - 1 x weekly service will not operate 22JUN to 13JUL inclusive

[BAladdy]

According to the website Jethro’s fleet listing, BACF have acquired 2 secondhand E190’s from China Southern. The aircraft are approx 7 years old and will be registered G-LCAA and G-LCAB.

BA Cityflyer Fleet List (http://www.jethros.org.uk/fleets/fleet_listings/ba_cityflyer.htm)

Does anyone have any info if they are being leased by BACF or have the been bought?. When are the aircraft expected to enter service with BACF?.

[Alteagod]

That will be for the BHD flights

[Fly757X]

That will be for the BHD flights

BACF at BHD? Haven't heard anything about that...

[PDXCWL45]

BACF at BHD? Haven't heard anything about that...
Probably only happen if Flybe pulled their LCY route.

[SealinkBF]

Probably only happen if Flybe pulled their LCY route.

BA might be smelling blood. Hopefully BHD LCY is profitable but I doubt if it's a core route for Flybe's new owners.

[PDXCWL45]

BA might be smelling blood. Hopefully BHD LCY is profitable but I doubt if it's a core route for Flybe's new owners.
Their whole LCY network might be chopped imo. They are going to have to find room for flights to CWL and DSA and Virgin might want more of focus on LHR so it will be interesting to see if they continue to fly into LCY in the future.

[Wycombe]

Probably only happen if Flybe pulled their LCY route

BHD-LCY is a high-frequency route (6 rotations tomorrow, for example) so could be room for 2 operators if BE have to reduce.

[PDXCWL45]

BHD-LCY is a high-frequency route (6 rotations tomorrow, for example) so could be room for 2 operators if BE have to reduce.

I am surprised that BA don't already operate it from LCY considering they operate most of the main domestic routes already from there.

[virginblue]

Never quite understood Flybe's network at LCY. While EDI is somewhat plausible, given Scot/Cityjet's long-time presence on the route in competition with BACF, AMS and DUS are less so. Although AMS is the busiest route from LCY, BE is competing with two incumbent flag carriers and most probably will have to undercut them to attract business. DUS is a somewhat odd destination given that it used to be one of BACF's thinner routes, served for quite some time with a Saab 2000 and then with an E70. Not sure what BE saw in that route.

[Wycombe]

DUS is a somewhat odd destination
Not sure what BE saw in that route.

Isn't there a Flybe crew base there?

[virginblue]

Yes, there is (and BE serves BHX, MAN, LBA, SOU and CWL from there). But DUS-LCY has never been a particularly busy route and there are some busier monoply routes from LCY such as GLA, RTM or LUX that are turboprop suitable.

[ATNotts]

Yes, there is (and BE serves BHX, MAN, LBA, SOU and CWL from there). But DUS-LCY has never been a particularly busy route and there are some busier monoply routes from LCY such as GLA, RTM or LUX that are turboprop suitable.

I suppose that's because DUS serves an area in Germany where "real work" is done (the productive stuff that manufactures things) rather than playing with (usually other people's) money - the normal preserve of passengers travelling from LCY, destined for FRA or Luxembourg! :=

[BA318]

BA/IAG are said to be deciding between the Airbus A220 and Embraer E2 to replace BA Cityflyer's fleet.

According to the article below the decision will be made in the coming months. The order would be for at least 26 aircraft.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/iag-looking-at-embraers-e2-jets-or-airbus-a220-for-ba-cityflyer (https://www.aerotelegraph.com/iag-looking-at-embraers-e2-jets-or-airbus-a220-for-ba-cityflyer)

[WHBM]

Is the E2 the same size as the current E190 ? The latter fits all the current stands and taxyway, whereas the Swiss A220-100 is apparently confined to the four east end stands.

Has the prototype E2 even been to LCY yet and done the steep approach ?

[BA318]

Yes. The E2 has been into LCY. It came in before Farnborough.

https://www.londoncityairport.com/media-centre/london-city-debut-for-embraer-e190-e2

I would imagine the big plus for the A220 is that it can operate JFK non-stop and potentially open additional routes. By the time these are delivered the new stands will also be open which will offer around 12 or more that could take the A220 which should be sufficient.

[WHBM]

Although the JFK nonstop looks an advantage, that would inevitably be a different subfleet with quite a different cabin fit. And of course the JFK flight on the A318 is a BA mainline operation, not Ciytflyer.

[USERNAME_]

Although the JFK nonstop looks an advantage, that would inevitably be a different subfleet with quite a different cabin fit. And of course the JFK flight on the A318 is a BA mainline operation, not Ciytflyer.

Believe that unite are currently fighting a case for the JFK route to be moved to Cityflyer. This case is for the benefit of BACF and Gatwick fleet who have to position to/from LGW before and after every flight.

[WHBM]

There's a very good service reliability reason why the New York flights are crewed from Gatwick and not LCY; it takes a little understanding.

[USERNAME_]

There's a very good service reliability reason why the New York flights are crewed from Gatwick and not LCY; it takes a little understanding.

Not my fight to argue for or against. Imagine it’ll save a couple of quid on coaches at the very least.

[BAladdy]

One of the two E90’s (EI-GHK) leased from Stobart flown from LCY to AMS yesterday evening and this afternoon was was used to operate flights on behalf of of KL.

Does anyone know if the lease has ended on this aircraft?.

[GLCYZ]

One of the two E90’s (EI-GHK) leased from Stobart flown from LCY to AMS yesterday evening and this afternoon was was used to operate flights on behalf of of KL.

Does anyone know if the lease has ended on this aircraft?.

If not ended yet it will be ending very soon, with delivery of G-LCAB imminent.

[Jet Set Willie]

One of the two E90’s (EI-GHK) leased from Stobart flown from LCY to AMS yesterday evening and this afternoon was was used to operate flights on behalf of of KL.

Does anyone know if the lease has ended on this aircraft?.

It has indeed ended, BACF doing more of their own Dublin flights again. Other one to depart in the next few weeks.

[BAladdy]

If not ended yet it will be ending very soon, with delivery of G-LCAB imminent.
It’s gonna be a couple of weeks yet before G-LCAB will enter service. The aircraft was only flown from from CAN, where it has been stored, to WAW to undergo modification on Friday. The cabin will also be refurbished to the same standard as G-LCAA prior to entering service

Does anyone know if they are still planning to add another 2 E90’S to the fleet later this year?.

[GLCYZ]

It’s gonna be a couple of weeks yet before G-LCAB will enter service. The aircraft was only flown from from CAN, where it has been stored, to WAW to undergo modification on Friday. The cabin will also be refurbished to the same standard as G-LCAA prior to entering service

Does anyone know if they are still planning to add another 2 E90’S to the fleet later this year?.

G-LCAB is planned to enter service on 22 July.

[BAladdy]

G-LCAB is planned to enter service on 22 July.
Are BACF still planning on adding 2 more E90’s later this year?. If they are, does anyone know if the aircraft will be ex China Southern?

[GLCYZ]

Changes to Winter 2019 services:

Services will increase on Berlin (up to six additional per week), Glasgow (up to six additional per week), Florence (up to five additional per week), Edinburgh (up to four additional per week), and Dublin (up to six additional each week from 09 September)
The winter seasonal service to Reykjavik (Keflavik) will not be resumed
Geneva will reduce by eleven services down to six weekly, Malaga will reduce by four services to three weekly until January, and to two weekly from January, Rotterdam will reduce by two daily services to retain a five per day (weekdays) schedule and Zurich will reduce by five frequencies per week (from 09 September)

[BA318]

What do you mean? They are all BA Cityflyer flights.

[Fly757X]

They're all BA mainline flights?

From LCY? Somehow I don't think you're right there.

[GLCYZ]

BA CityFlyer cabin crew have rejected the 2019 pay offer 84% versus 16%.

On offer was an increase of 2.6% for main crew and 3% for CSMs (basic pay and allowances), plus 3.5% increase in flight duty pay (amounting to a boost of 10p an hour).

[BA318]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ba-cityflyer-doubles-full-year-profits-460758/

BA CityFlyer made profits of £42million last year.

[virginblue]

Are the six E170s more or less allocated to a few specific destinations or do they freely roam across the network, e.g. by operating off-peak flights on routes otherwise served with the larger E90s and peak-time flights on low-frequency, thinner routes?

[Rutan16]

Virgin blue FR24 is your friend , Enter the six registrations in the search and it will tell you where they have been in the few days even on the free version

Primary routes are
Amsterdam Dublin Zurich Edinburgh Glasgow Frankfurt Prague Düsseldorf Florence Rotterdam

Secondary routes are
Nice Quimper Bergerac

They have also been to Palma

All in the last two months

[GLCYZ]

As IAG group-wide procurement of next generation regional jets is taking longer than expected, in 2020 the E170s are planned to be sold and replaced by leased E190s. A preferred buyer for the 170s has been selected and a preferred lessor for the 190s. No word on whether the 190s will be new or second hand but I’d imagine the latter.

[virginblue]

Will be interesting to see who will take on the E170s - it is not exactly a sought after type. Disregarding Japanese carrier J-Air that has added 3 or 4 new-builts over the last couple of years, the last new built Embraer 170 was delivered in 2013 in 2013 to Airnorth after delivieries had started to trickle after 2009. Quite a few are now stored or have already been scrapped.

What I am, however, more interested in is whether the destinations mainly served with E170 (and not just off-peak) will survive after an upgrade to E190s - I guess DUS will be relatively safe as BACF can now lure ex Flybe customers onboard. Not sure about a place like RTM which is, IIRC, also a " mainly E170 destination".

[GLCYZ]

Will be interesting to see who will take on the E170s - it is not exactly a sought after type. Disregarding Japanese carrier J-Air that has added 3 or 4 new-builts over the last couple of years, the last new built Embraer 170 was delivered in 2013 in 2013 to Airnorth after delivieries had started to trickle after 2009. Quite a few are now stored or have already been scrapped.

What I am, however, more interested in is whether the destinations mainly served with E170 (and not just off-peak) will survive after an upgrade to E190s - I guess DUS will be relatively safe as BACF can now lure ex Flybe customers onboard. Not sure about a place like RTM which is, IIRC, also a " mainly E170 destination".

Actually RTM is mostly 190s. I doubt it’ll have any effect on destinations as most 170s go out pretty much full so a 190 is unlikely to be oversized for the mission.

[brian_dromey]

Actually RTM is mostly 190s. I doubt it’ll have any effect on destinations as most 170s go out pretty much full so a 190 is unlikely to be oversized for the mission.

I imagine the cost difference between the E170 and E190 is fairly marginal. The crew complement is the same for both aircraft, so its fuel and airways costs. I imagine these are very small compared to the additional revenue that could be got from 22 additional seats on each flight.

[virginblue]

So why did BACF buy a number of E170 in the first place - this at a time when it was already selling poorly and thus probably not a brilliant hardware investment? Or are they leased?

[brian_dromey]

It’s a good question. I don’t think the E190 was certified at the time of the BA order, which was for just 11 aircraft. I think the 190 has proven to be less restricted than the initial figures suggested. I seem to recall MAD being a destination that was thought to be outside the 190s abilities. When they were ordered thoughts of the Greek Islands were fanciful.

[nowhereasfiled]

Looks like AB is diverting to MAN enroute DUB-LCY due to Fire/Smoke incident

[USERNAME_]

CF ending ops for a period of 2 weeks. Back online April 4th.

[nowhereasfiled]

Hardly surprising. But 2 weeks is nothing compared to some of the others.

[JSCL]

Looks like the Loganair operated IOM flights on as normal despite the above?

[nowhereasfiled]

Looks like the Loganair operated IOM flights on as normal despite the above?

Maybe, but looks like they have their own metal (LCYZ) in it at the moment, currently inbound to LCY so don’t know if Loganair have taken their ATR back or what.

[JSCL]

Maybe, but looks like they have their own metal (LCYZ) in it at the moment, currently inbound to LCY so don’t know if Loganair have taken their ATR back or what.
Two earlier City flights were cancelled, so assume there’s a problem somewhere with LM and BA sent their own metal.

[flyerguy]

Two earlier City flights were cancelled, so assume there’s a problem somewhere with LM and BA sent their own metal.

The ATR went tech, yet again.

[BA318]

BACF is proposing to close the EDI crew base with loss of 72 pilots. https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/BA-CityFlyer-redundancies-on-the-day-the-Chancello

[GLCYZ]

Also proposing the loss of 64 cabin crew, changes to scheduling agreements and loss of roster change, disruption and dead head payments.

[jamestkirk]

The new normal. Just as Ts and Cs in airlines were getting somewhere, Covid gives an excuse to put them back to 'if you do not like it f^uck off' days. A quote from a chief pilot of an airline i used to work for.

BACF especially out of LCY is a great product with great crews.

I am only guessing that there is a group of clueless people in BA, wandering the halls, thinking they are the masters of management, saying we can get £x on the bottom line by reducing the terms and conditions for pilots as they have nowhere to go. Good luck with that strategy as they will repay you in kind when the chance arises.

Short term thinking, long term failure.

[JobsaGoodun]

I am only guessing that there is a group of clueless people in BA, wandering the halls, thinking they are the masters of management, saying we can get £x on the bottom line by reducing the terms and conditions for pilots as they have nowhere to go. Good luck with that strategy as they will repay you in kind when the chance arises.

Or alternatively, there are a group of very well informed and skilled airline managers at BA who have successfully built a very profitable business thinking, how on earth can we avoid administration and bankruptcy of our business and the loss of every pilots job in the face of the biggest event to ever affect the industry.

[ATNotts]

Or alternatively, there are a group of very well informed and skilled airline managers at BA who have successfully built a very profitable business thinking, how on earth can we avoid administration and bankruptcy of our business and the loss of every pilots job in the face of the biggest event to ever affect the industry.

That's my bet.

Actually, given the dire state of the travel industry in general, rather than whinging and complaining about changes to conditions people should be happy to have a job, and keep it through the immediate aftermath. Joining the real world, or waking up and smelling the coffee might be better than firing off tirades at management.

[TURIN]

That's my bet.

Actually, given the dire state of the travel industry in general, rather than whinging and complaining about changes to conditions people should be happy to have a job, and keep it through the immediate aftermath. Joining the real world, or waking up and smelling the coffee might be better than firing off tirades at management.

Have you actually met BA management?

[JobsaGoodun]

Don't get me wrong, I have huge sympathy for anyone involved in this industry just now. It's a horrible set of circumstances that could not be envisaged, and for which there is no rule book, but.....let me ask this question.

In the current climate, if an airline management team didn't take every action possible to preserve the business (and the jobs it provides) upon whom would the blame rest for the failure of that business?

[ATNotts]

Have you actually met BA management?

No, but I'm sure they're incompetent, as are most managements in the view of their employees!

One thing is however for certain, as part of a large publicly quoted organisation that will be suffering severe cash flow issues, and a responsibility to their shareholders to maximise profits, or in the current situation, minimise losses they'll be forced to make some very unpalatable decisions to preserve their business in the medium term, to ensure that there will be a business and employment for people in the longer term.

I feel for anyone working in any part of the travel and tourism industry at present, but looking at the situation you've got to say that some job, on a lower salary with possibly worse conditions is, to a point, better than no job at all.

[inOban]

The management who made BA the most profitable part of the IAG group.

I wonder whether the Edinburgh financial institutions, who were presumably the major users of the LCY services, have told BA that have discovered that online meetings worked perfectly well, saved a lot of money, and allowed their staff to work reasonable hours.

[ATNotts]

The management who made BA the most profitable part of the IAG group.

I wonder whether the Edinburgh financial institutions, who were presumably the major users of the LCY services, have told BA that have discovered that online meetings worked perfectly well, saved a lot of money, and allowed their staff to work reasonable hours.

That is going to be one of the biggest challenges for airlines, and hotels that rely upon business customers with big budgets to travel to meetings and to overnight. It is probably a given that on the other side of the Covid-19 crisis there will be fewer face to face business meetings, probably fewer conferences that require overnight stays and cities like London could especially hard hit, as will the airlines, like BA Cityflyer.

For many of the legacy carriers, front end business passengers are crucial to their business model, again especially Cityflyer, who's customers must be predominantly from that sector.

[MARKEYD]

No, but I'm sure they're incompetent, as are most managements in the view of their employees!

One thing is however for certain, as part of a large publicly quoted organisation that will be suffering severe cash flow issues, and a responsibility to their shareholders to maximise profits, or in the current situation, minimise losses they'll be forced to make some very unpalatable decisions to preserve their business in the medium term, to ensure that there will be a business and employment for people in the longer term.

I feel for anyone working in any part of the travel and tourism industry at present, but looking at the situation you've got to say that some job, on a lower salary with possibly worse conditions is, to a point, better than no job at all.
I am a long standing BA employee

So to dismiss 42 , 0000 staff , make redundant 12 , 000 staff and re employ 30 ,000 on the worst terms and conditions possible ( makes Mike Ashley look like a reasonable employer) is better than no job ?
BA are using this situation to their advantage to completely re structure the airline and its subsidiaries to an all time low

There won’t be a BA that you know or recognize I am afraid with most staff on zero hours and just above the minium wage

[Big Tudor]

there will be fewer face to face business meetings, probably fewer conferences that require overnight stays and cities like London could especially hard hit, as will the airlines, like BA Cityflyer.

Not disputing the points raised ATNotts but I recall similar comments being made post 9/11 and post 2008 financial crash. Whilst there will be a realignment for a period I do believe Humans insatiable appetite for success will demand that normality return at some point, and that will include the ubiquitous night-stops and expense account trips. Whether the current incumbent airlines exist to service that need is another question.

[davidjohnson6]

There have been people lamenting BA's decline for decades.... bring back Lord King from the dead... etc...
The competitive environment has changed and BA has had to change as well. Until the virus, BA seemed to be making a healthy profit which says it can't be doing that badly