Derry/Londonderry 2

[scodaman]

City of Derry in news again.

https://www.derrynow.com/news/money-intended-city-derry-airport-handed-back/186001

[conorc123]

Anyways... Ryanair grounds Belfast flights for four months - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41416893) Good reason for BMI to start a third rotation?

I flew BMI on friday to STN. Great flight, only one cabin attendant but very friendly, and free drink. Counted 40 of the 49 seats full. Feel if BMI can sort out the price of the seats booked within 2 weeks of departure and weekend prices they could see 90+% load factors

[canberra97]

STN rather than STD.

[conorc123]

Why Thank you :ok:

[scodaman]

I reckon that if Flybmi leased a 737 and got the pricing right they would fill the 2 flights a day on the Derry - STN route.

[canberra97]

Which they won't do especially considering it's a PSO route.

[scodaman]

Does anyone know if the particulars of the PSO contract limit the size of aircraft that can be used?

[speedbirdATC]

There is no aircraft size limit, as bmi themselves have used larger aircraft on the route at times when the E145 is not available.

[owenc]

What aircraft would that be?

[southside bobby]

ERJ170-100..

[richardnei]

I've heard that BMI Regional have been looking to up size in the regional aircraft market. E170/175, E190/195, SSJ have all been looked as possible additions to the fleet.

We're only talking a few aircraft and nothing bigger. BMI Regional operate in very niche markets. I'd say E170/175 are more likely as would be more compatible with the existing fleet.

[conorc123]

Delay in £7m funding for City of Derry airport - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-41318155) Anyone any idea how this 2.5 mil for route development would be spent? Would it be similar to the PSO where a carrier gets thrown wonga to operate a route for 2 years then pull out?

[scodaman]

Any word on how the one-off Seville Trip in March 2018 is selling?

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/business/new-derry-to-seville-chartered-service-launched-1-8226220

[mart901]

https://nitravelnews.com/news/super-break-launches-new-packages-direct-from-northern-ireland/

[speedbirdATC]

Looks like FR have increased the LDY- LPL service to 3 x weekly across the summer schedule. Still a dismal frequency for this flight which should be daily, if not double daily on some days.

[Fly757X]

Really Dismal, was spotting at LDY yesterday and if it wasn't for a LJ35 my time wouldn't have been worthwhile. A good direction would maybe be Flybe through their franchise with Stobart, maybe a based E195 to operate BHX/MAN etc. Just my opinion.

[A320.b744]

I don't think that Ryanair is suited to operate domestic services from LDY. Clearly the demand isn't there for substantial B738 operations, but I do think that Flybe could make some routes work. Daily Q400 services to BHX, GLA, LCY, LPL, MAN would be beneficial to the business community, though Flybe wouldn't want to dilute their passenger numbers from BHD. I can't see the E195 being used - it's simply too big for the market - and given Flybe's financial situation, a base at LDY would be very unlikely.

[BHD2BFS]

If my memory is correct Aer Arran tried to launch 2 or 3 routes maybe 5 years ago from Derry and the routes where scrapped before they even took off so they must have seen there wasn’t demand for a regional airline operating regularly all day. Flybe also tried MAN and that didn’t last either.
What LDY needs is local tour operators pushing for more charter flights in the summer and winter where the loads are guaranteed

[Fly757X]

Load factors tend to be very good actually. Frequencies have increased again to LPL for the summer and even after they scraped the STN and FAO route they said they were still here for the long run. Another thing is that the FAO flights are not bookable from BFS this year. No announcement but interesting.

[cuthere]

Loads have always been good to LPL and GLA. Yield is another thing, but with some of the prices I’ve seen as well as short sectors, I’m sure FR are doing alright out of the pair.

FAO always did well too, and I was surprised when they binned it.

[Fly757X]

That's why the Franchise operation would work. No real financial bearing on Flybe, just the name on the plane and the routes on their website with a financial kick-back. A setup like what Stobart are going for in Southend and potentially Carlisle. Maybe a E195 was a bit too much considering their situation. BHX was talked about a while ago (2 or so years ago) but it was never heard of again from Flybe. I personally think Ryanair should promote LDY widely across NI. If Ryanair were to pull GLA and LPL and move them to BFS then they will be in for a culture shock with competition from Easyjet. The Domestic UK services that Ryanair operate are much better suited to LDY as realistically they can still pull loads from Antrim for the lower fares and also the Northwest of island thus keeping the local customer in the Londonderry area from going to Easyjet. That's my view anyway. Keep in mind the Franchise agreement explanation was very vague but the essential idea of how it can be integrated into the NW through a base like Stobart have in the Isle of Mann could be used.

[A320.b744]

Load factors may be good, but realistically for domestic services you need at least daily flights, preferably x2 daily or more. Ryanair would never be able to sustain daily B738 operations to GLA or LPL. Ryanair may be in LDY for the long run, but a lot of people would prefer to have the ability to return home on the same day, or to at least be able to choose to fly any day.

That's why the Franchise operation would work. No real financial bearing on Flybe, just the name on the plane and the routes on their website with a financial kick-back. A setup like what Stobart are going for in Southend and potentially Carlisle. Maybe a E195 was a bit too much considering their situation.

Perhaps Stobart's ATR 42s would be a good fit. That would allow for double daily flights, without flooding the market.


The Domestic UK services that Ryanair operate are much better suited to LDY as realistically they can still pull loads from Antrim for the lower fares and also the Northwest of island thus keeping the local customer in the Londonderry area from going to Easyjet.

I find it highly unlikely that FR are attracting passengers for their LDY services from the likes of Antrim. Lower fares than from BFS or BHD won't attract them because a) LDY is a pain to get to, and b) most people want multiple flights a day. Only people who live close to the airport will forgo choice of when to travel.

[Amelia Earhart]

Well the Seville charter in March must be doing OK as "Super Break" have announced two further charter destinations from CODA.

https://nitravelnews.com/news/super-break-launches-new-packages-direct-from-northern-ireland/

Montenegro and Croatia in October

Iceland in January 2019. (Not Reykjavik but the north of Iceland).

[cuthere]

Akuyeri is a fantastic spot and not far from Husavik, where guaranteed whale-watching can be had. Also, northern lights are much, much more likely in the north. Fantastic country.

[A320.b744]

For those interested, final year passenger numbers for LDY routes are as follows;

Glasgow - 84,968 (+5.3%)
Stansted - 54,736 (-53.1%)
Liverpool - 52,326 (-35.7%)
Palma de Mallorca - 2,250 (NEW)

The total passenger number for 2017 was 194,280 (-33.2%), which is the airport's lowest annual figure since 2001. The airport also exhibited the largest annual percentage fall in passenger numbers across all UK airports in 2017.

2018 scheduled seats for sale by route are as follows;

GLA: 97,524
LPL: 66,528
STN: 66,248
PMI: 2,646

This gives a total of 232,946 seats for sale in 2018, meaning the airport should handle just over 200,000 passengers this year.

Clearly LDY management need to attract more routes and airlines as soon as possible, as these dire figures beg the question whether it is sustainable to run an airport that handles so few passengers.

[conorc123]

I think it's the airports management that should be question. Gauging from recent social media posts there is clearly a large demand for new services from CODA. I always wonder is it the presence of Ryanair that scare the smaller regional carries into coming in. Is it a case that CODA need to sever ties with ryanair to let a knew carrier pick and choose what routes they want to operate?

[Amelia Earhart]

A post on this thread on 29th January (which has since disappeared) mentioned a Facebook page about "Irelair Ltd" who are supposed interested in CODA.

https://www.facebook.com/IrelAir/

I have no further details other than what the Facebook page states but there is a company registration of the same name.

https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/11146070-irelair-ltd

[A320.b744]

I think it's the airports management that should be question. Gauging from recent social media posts there is clearly a large demand for new services from CODA. I always wonder is it the presence of Ryanair that scare the smaller regional carries into coming in. Is it a case that CODA need to sever ties with ryanair to let a knew carrier pick and choose what routes they want to operate?

As I've said continuously on this thread, Ryanair are quite simply ill-suited for LDY domestic operations. In order to make LDY a sustainable operation, there needs to be frequent links to major UK cities. x3 weekly on a domestic route is simply not good enough for business travellers, and they will opt instead for BFS or BHD. Ryanair axing STN has allowed for a much more convenient and business-friendly operation to commence, and I think the same would happen if Ryanair axed GLA and LPL. If Ryanair want to remain at LDY, they should look instead at the leisure market, where their business model is better suited.


A post on this thread on 29th January (which has since disappeared) mentioned a Facebook page about "Irelair Ltd" who are supposed interested in CODA.

I have no further details other than what the Facebook page states but there is a company registration of the same name.



I severely doubt anything will come of this The lack of any information about this project from the airport management puts the authenticity of this in doubt, as well as the completely unprofessional way in which it seems to be run. Also, the name 'Irelair' is simply awful.

[conorc123]

I had been keeping an eye on their posts throughout the week. From what I've read they are planning on dry leasing their aircraft and are currently in correspondence with 2 leasing companies. However from what I've ascertained they are a husband and wife team with no experience in running an airline. I suspect they are possibly the same guys who are behind the 'save city of derry airport' page and now that interest has started to die out they are using this as a new way of generating publicity. Although I'm in no doubt IrelAir will not take off (pardon the pun) it only goes to show the level of interest in the airport and the desire from the public for new routes with one of their posts alone being shared 1.5 thousand times and nearly 3 thousand comments.

Has anyone heard any word on BMI picking up a route between their morning and afternoon London departures. I remember there was chat around June last year regarding this. It seems like an awful waste having an airplane sitting idle for so long throughout the day. I understand their fares would most likely be extortionate but with the loads they obtain on many of their other routes being so low surely they could fill 25 seats on a UK route and still make a profit?

[conorc123]

A320.b744

Any idea what the load factors were on each of these routes?

[A320.b744]

GLA - 85.1%
LPL - 86.1%
STN - 91.0% (January-March), 73.3% (May-December)
PMI - 85.0%

To compare, Ryanair's average load factor in 2017 was 94%, and bmi Regional's was approx 55%. PMI is operated on behalf of TUI, whose average load factor in 2017 was 95%.

[Fly757X]

I'm not believing the IrelAir stuff either but they're not the folks from the Save City of Derry Airport Facebook page. They are based in LPL but they are Derry/Londonderry natives. I throw figures and stats through to the Save City of Derry Airport campaign and we were talking about the Irelair stuff but they are staying muted on it because as much as we want it... we won't get it. BMI are wasting the aircraft, LDY-BHX would be ideal as they have a base at BHX and that would aid aircraft swaps etc... I can't remember the load factors on the LDY-BHX route when Ryanair operated it but from memory it ran 4 times a week and got 85ish%+. Keep in mind that was 4 years ago now so I could be wrong.

[OltonPete]

Fly757X

Source: CAA

2014 42230 passengers, flights 335 - 126 pax average 67%

2013 52270 passengers, flights 424 - 123 pax average 65%

2012 55096 passengers, flights 418 - 132 pax - average 70%

I would say high summer 80% and winter 50-60% load factors.

Rumour has it Flybe, VLM, Stobart and BMI Regional have all looked at this in the past after Ryanair ceased and originally 3 have walked away for one reason or another.

This is a route that has potential but only with the right amount of support and hence the reluctance I believe although not totally ruled out as far as I am aware and without getting 2+2 to = 5, I suggest BMIR are more likely than Stobart and I assume Flybe would want a wad a cash from the LDY end

[Fly757X]

Cheers mate, never realised they were so low. Many thanks :D

[Husky One]

The trouble with CODA is that it requires outside-the-box strategy to survive. Instead it is run like a Council project. Councils and airports are uneasy bedfellows. I'd bet my shirt that all the appropriate players have looked at routes from LDY. I'd say the real killer is yield rather than just numbers. The NI market is particularly fickle on that front.

[01475]

I think part of the problem is that the people with the capacity to market such a route aren't the same people as the ones with planes the right size to operate it :-(

[Fly757X]

Loads have always been good to LPL and GLA. Yield is another thing, but with some of the prices I’ve seen as well as short sectors, I’m sure FR are doing alright out of the pair.

FAO always did well too, and I was surprised when they binned it.

FAO was probably due to the new base in BFS and Ryanair wanting to centralise their operation around it. As the FAO-BFS-FAO sectors are operated by FAO based crew it would leave little room to fit in a LDY sector.

[owenc]

I would use the airport, but i'm not fussed on the size of the planes, the cabin is small. The prices also leave a lot to be desired.

[conorc123]

I'd agree on the Stansted flights that the plain is small but for me its handy and I much rather support my local airport than drive to Belfast. I just booked Derry to Glasgow for next week as I'm heading to Edinburgh for £26 return. An hour and a half journey on the other side but I'd be doing at least that trying to get to Belfast mid day with our God awful road network.

[Fly757X]

LPL-LDY-LPL for winter 2018/2019 has retained it's current schedule.

[BFS BHD]

At Derry:
– 2 routes: Glasgow (5 wkly), Liverpool (4 wkly)
– 145,000 customers p.a.
– 110* on-site jobs

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-launches-northern-ireland-winter-18-schedule/

[buzz_hornet]

Loganair last night and eastern tonight on teatime service. Why can XE do morning run but not evening?

[TartinTon]

Why can XE do morning run but not evening?

Sounds like crewing issues....quite a few cancellations around the network for bmi....short of crew or crew playing silly buggers?

[buzz_hornet]

Crew is based in ldy so perhaps the 2nd option

[Fly757X]

BMR1501/1502 cancelled tomorrow morning

[fjencl]

you would think with this amount of notice then they would be able to get in an aircraft from Eastern Airways, Loganair or any other operator !

[Fly757X]

Yes it is interesting considering they has the Loganair and Eastern SAABs in during the week.

[AirportPlanner1]

Might be a blessing in disguise - if the weather does what they say it’s going to anyone planning to use these services won’t be able to get back again

[Fly757X]

Very true, isn't supposed to hit LDY untill late Tuesday maybe Wednesday. STN is a different story with snow streamers setting up.

[scodaman]

Tonight's inbound Flybmi STN flight has just landed at LDY so the tech must be ok.

Regardless, it's a poor show from BMI and will do nothing for the image and reputation.

[BFS BHD]

Looks like Ryanair is moving its Glasgow service to Edinburgh for W18/19.

[conorc123]

https://news.sky.com/story/ryanair-to-slash-scottish-routes-11269451 .. It will be interesting to see if the Derry flight is transferred over or if the route will be scrapped. Apparently 3 routes are being retained and 11 new routes at Edinburgh, there are currently 23 routes of out Glasgow. I can't see Derry being too high on their priority list.

[EI-A330-300]

FR confirm EDI.

[billyg]

We'll see how long that lasts , Glasgow and Derry have an "affinity" , moving this route to EDI is a joke !

[EI-A330-300]

Im sure most would prefer EDI to PIK again!

[conorc123]

Ahh yes so I see, good news. With Edinburgh airports close proximity to Glasgow I would have said this airport was the best choice of the two to serve both cities, as long as there is a direct link bus service.

[A350Saltire]

There is a direct bus route from EDI to Glasgow City Centre so it should be fine.

[mwm991]

Not sure how the move to EDI will do. Interesting to see how the weekend flights do without the convenience of being close to the Old Firm stadiums.

[01475]

It's not just about links to Glasgow itself; it's also about getting people to Lanarkshire and Ayrshire. This doesn't seem like a good move...

... though I expect they'll be back at Glasgow soon enough, if they can screw a better deal out them.

[mwm991]

Loganair will step in I'd imagine if the above fails. I'd be surprised if as much as 5x weekly though.

[Amelia Earhart]

LDY has had a Glasgow flight since 1979. It was the original route from the airport and for a long time the only route. It seems inconceivable that it would no longer serve Glasgow.

Could Loganair be tempted back? Could BMI Regional operate it with their aircraft based at LDY which sits idle most of the day? Will the promise of a route development fund, now delayed due to the Stormont collapse, discourage rather than encourage operators if they sit back and wait until the route development fund goes ahead.

In the past LDY has served MAN (40K pax p.a.), BRS (35K), EMA (60K), BHX (60K), DUB (20K), LPL (50K), STN (with Ryanair 150K) and now GLA (70K). Is there not enough meat there to attract a suitable operator? The other two airports go from strength to strength.

[conorc123]

From the Ryanair website it seems they've changed the schedule so no operations on Monday and Wednesday. However the fares seem to be a lot more expensive than with the two options being £53 and £36 each way.

[EI-A330-300]

Could Loganair be tempted back?

They are resuming CFN-GLA after EI announced they would end the route before Christmas.

[Fly757X]

I would imagine GLA-LDY would still be viable as they have served both routes at the same time in the past.

[GLAEDI]

Seemly FR asked if passengers would mind flying into EDI and they said yes but I wonder if they asked if you minded going to EDI at a higher cost! Anyway the LDY flight as my experience is always full at the weekend moving Rangers & Celtic fans around. Most stadiums are in the West, fans busses obviously leave Glasgow to the other games. Fans also want to be in Glasgow City Centre before and after the game. This will really affect these customers. The Old Firm fans will be the reason why the route works as i’m sure FR don’t sell £9.99 fares that weekend.
Also majority of people in Donegal with connections to Scotland are Glasgow & the West. This will make this route an expensive proposition in that you either get the bus to Buchanan Str and from there to your final destination at an added cost or relatives have to travel to EDI at a higher cost rather than GLA. I really don’t know who would come in as SAAB 340 or 2000 will be rather small, but maybe Loganair or it’s sister BMI may give it a go or Aer Lingus/Stobart Air?

[Fly757X]

SAAB 2000s are very nice aircraft from my own experience, just as good as the E145s. I think that the geographical location change will hurt the route but it's still going to a large Scottish city. All we need is the locals to start supporting Hearts and Hibs and we will be grand. One thing to take out of this is it wasn't one of the ones that were scrapped.

[Amelia Earhart]

It demonstrates how badly this airport is faring when a route that had operated for 40 years is "transferred" to another airport rather than simply being axed and it seems like a good news story!

[GAZMO]

Could be good news if another operator steps in and covers GLA. Certainly a demand from LDY. Maybe BMIR?

[Skipness One Echo]

Seems bonkers not to use PIK before EDI if GLA was an issue.

[buzz_hornet]

Seems the Glasgow based pilots rejected the pay deal so may have played a part in their decision making

[mart901]

Seems bonkers not to use PIK before EDI if GLA was an issue.

And then when the route fails guess which NI airport it will be transferred to..... thus giving FR coverage for London, the North West and Scotland, and beyond which I can't see a lot of other options for domestic.

[sealink]

How about Flybe operating GLA LDY with a GLA based a/c ?

[Fly757X]

"1810 - BMA051P - G-CIEC - SB20 - inbound from Humberside."

Eastern are operating for BMI Regional this week.

[buzz_hornet]

"1810 - BMA051P - G-CIEC - SB20 - inbound from Humberside."

Eastern are operating for BMI Regional this week.

XE need repaired?

Prop doing rightly so far with minimal time issues

[Amelia Earhart]

I did wonder whether Ryanair moving to EDI could be a blessing in disguise.....

https://www.derrynow.com/news/breaking-scottish-airline-loganair-steps-secure-glasgow-derry-flight-ryanair-withdraws-route-new-service-begins-october/210646://

[TRY2FLY]

I did wonder whether Ryanair moving to EDI could be a blessing in disguise.....

https://www.derrynow.com/news/breaking-scottish-airline-loganair-steps-secure-glasgow-derry-flight-ryanair-withdraws-route-new-service-begins-october/210646://

Also in the Scottish media https://stv.tv/news/west-central/1409672-loganair-to-replace-ryanair-s-glasgow-to-derry-service/

[A320.b744]

This announcement is excellent news for business travellers. Loganair's service, though only x5 weekly, allows business travellers to depart on Monday and return on Friday evening, something that Ryanair's schedule did not enable. I would be surprised if the route did not increase to x7 or x9 weekly in the near future as there is ample demand.

The announcement is also good news for the airport, and places it in a much stronger position. Just 12 months ago, Ryanair was the sole scheduled operator. From October the airport will be served by three airlines (for the first time since 2008), operating four domestic routes (for the first time since 2014).

The airport no longer has to rely exclusively on Ryanair, giving management more flexibility in charging fees etc. Also, the fact that both Airline Investments Limited (AIL) airlines will be serving the airport gives airport management the unique opportunity to expand the number of destinations served from the airport. bmi Regional's STN route is performing extremely well, with a load factor 20% higher than the airline's average. There is real potential for LDY management to secure new domestic routes and even a link to DUB. Only time will tell if LDY management seize this opportunity, or if they continue on their current trajectory of being lazy. Crunch time is coming, and unless LDY management can attract more routes and more passengers, inevitably the airport will be closed.

[Amelia Earhart]

A news article from 2015 about the formation of Airline Investments Limited (AIL):

New regional airline group created - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-33766635)

[Amelia Earhart]

Loganair has previously operated LDY to MAN and separately DUB under a PSO in addition to the long runnning GLA route.

[AirportPlanner1]

Genuine question. Do you guys in Derry think a twice daily Saab to GLA along with your twice daily ERJ to STN would be a better outcome for the area than the existing handful of flights with FR? Substituting pax numbers for improved connectivity and business appeal?

[Amelia Earhart]

Loganair have a fleet of 30 aircraft serving 28 destinations and carried 765K pax last year with a load factor of 62.8%. They will be offering about 17K seats p.a. on GLA-LDY-GLA.

BMI Regional have a fleet of 20 aircraft serving 27 destinations and carried 415K in 2016 with a load factor of 54.1%. They offer 60K seats p.a. on LDY-STN-LDY.

[GLAEDI]

For Derry/Londonderry the Loganair flight goes to the correct airport with Glasgow and the West’s links to Donegal, Fermanagh & Derry counties.

[SWBKCB]

bmi Regional's STN route is performing extremely well, with a load factor 20% higher than the airline's average.

... and is a PSO route, operating with a Government subsidy.

[A320.b744]

... and is a PSO route, operating with a Government subsidy.

Despite receiving a Government subsidy to operate the route, bmi Regional's fares on LDY-STN are in line with what they charge on their non PSO routes. That means that the subsidy isn't creating extra demand through lower prices. With or without the subsidy, LDY-STN is still a money-spinner for bmi Regional.

With regards to expansion from LDY, here's an article from December stating that bmi Regional want to expand from LDY in the future. It seems like the lack of spare aircraft to operate these new routes is what's hindering LDY expansion.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/276111/bmi-regional-keeps-it-niche-and-to-the-point/

"Schnadt (bmi Regional CCO) is keen to serve the Northern Irish city from elsewhere and expand frequency to Derry from Stansted"

[Amelia Earhart]

Genuine question. Do you guys in Derry think a twice daily Saab to GLA along with your twice daily ERJ to STN would be a better outcome for the area than the existing handful of flights with FR? Substituting pax numbers for improved connectivity and business appeal?

This is a good question. Ryanair has been a bit of a conundrum for the airport. They attract large numbers of passengers, 80K on each of the Glasgow and Liverpool routes, but are rumoured to have a deal paying as little as £100 for each turn around. So each passenger is contributing less than 50p to airport fees.

The threat to the airport is not low passenger numbers nor lack of flights but the annual subvention of £2 million that the local council have to make towards running costs (capital costs being a further £1.5 million). At its peak passenger numbers were over 400,000 so to break even each passenger needs to contribute £5 not 50p.

Other carriers may not have the clout that Ryanair has and so may pay higher fees per passenger but with Loganair only carrying 12K pax p.a. on the GLA route the higher fees may not outweigh the lower passenger numbers.

The question is whether the additional passengers contribute sufficiently indirectly through parking charges etc to offset lower landing fees.

Certainly higher passenger numbers protect the airport's future even if it is loss making as it seems more important to the economy than if the airport had lower numbers so Ryanair is a benefit in that regard.

1 million passengers is often quoted as the break even point for the airport but that is a lot of routes carrying 12K pax per annum! The biggest help would be a reduction in APD for airports with less than 1 million passengers. The loss to the Exchequer would be minimal and there would be no need for any PSO routes.

[owenc]

What about asking passengers for £5 for the convenience of flying through Derry?

I would pay it.

[Amelia Earhart]

What about asking passengers for £5 for the convenience of flying through Derry?

I would pay it.

Ryanair axed Newquay when they did the same.

Ryanair axes flights from Newquay Airport in Cornwall - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12214475)

[rhutch28]

Ryanair axes flights from Newquay Airport in Cornwall - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12214475)

That BBC new link is 7 years old!!!!:ugh:

[A320.b744]

That BBC new link is 7 years old!!!!:ugh:

The news article is making a point - when NQY introduced a £5 surcharge, Ryanair axed all services from the airport. If a similar charge was introduced from LDY, as owenc suggested should happen, it is highly likely that LDY would lose Ryanair and potentially other airlines as well. Ryanair complain that APD is hampering their expansion from UK airports. Adding an additional charge is just making LDY an even less attractive airport from which to operate.

[Amelia Earhart]

Thanks, I had posted that link but then got waylaid from making the point which you just made.

[snn20]

NOC has a €10(£8.90) "development fee", yet Ryanair are increasing services from the airport.

[A320.b744]

NOC has a €10(£8.90) "development fee", yet Ryanair are increasing services from the airport.

NOC doesn't have APD. £8.90<£18 (£13+£5), meaning LDY is at a disadvantage compared to NOC, even without an additional development fee.

[01475]

Ryanair chop and change, and throw temper tantrums. But unlike other airlines that chop routes because of poor sales, they never seem to cut a route because of anything that might ever be their fault.
I wouldn't say you can read anything into them or the drivel they come up with.

Separately...

It is starting to seem a shame that BMI got the route :-( Not only does it appear that with the right operator it could have been perfectly commercially viable, but it appears that their unreliability may in time make the route unviable :-(

[Amelia Earhart]

Can anyone remember why Aer Arann pulled their Manchester and Birmingham routes in 2006 or so?

Also they launched LDY-EDI in 2011 but cancelled before it began after poor sales.

[buzz_hornet]

Ryanair chop and change, and throw temper tantrums. But unlike other airlines that chop routes because of poor sales, they never seem to cut a route because of anything that might ever be their fault.
I wouldn't say you can read anything into them or the drivel they come up with.

Separately...

It is starting to seem a shame that BMI got the route :-( Not only does it appear that with the right operator it could have been perfectly commercially viable, but it appears that their unreliability may in time make the route unviable :-(

The other option was stobart but then scored close to 50% on the tender.

XE back in service today

[buzz_hornet]

Can anyone remember why Aer Arann pulled their Manchester and Birmingham routes in 2006 or so?

Also they launched LDY-EDI in 2011 but cancelled before it began after poor sales.

Where they not PSO services from memory

[AirportPlanner1]

The other option was stobart but then scored close to 50% on the tender.

XE back in service today

I thought Stobart was the better option. For Derry pax heading to London I’d say SEN is a superior and quicker option, Stratford offers far more and better connections than Tottenham Hale and both STN and SEN trains end up at Liverpool St. SEN is only slightly worse than STN for reaching the rest of the south-east of England.

Using SEN-DUB/GLA/MAN as a guide, the aircraft size and fares would have nicely fitted between FR and BM. Returns from £40-50 to bring in a bit of volume.

[AirportPlanner1]

The other option was stobart but then scored close to 50% on the tender.

XE back in service today

I thought Stobart was the better option. For Derry pax heading to London I’d say SEN is a superior and quicker option, Stratford offers far more and better connections than Tottenham Hale and both STN and SEN trains end up at Liverpool St. SEN is only slightly worse than STN for reaching the rest of the south-east of England.

Using SEN-DUB/GLA/MAN as a guide, the aircraft size and fares would have nicely fitted between FR and BM. Advance returns from £40-50 to bring in a bit more volume than BM, while offering the double daily needed for business that FR didn’t offer.

[OneBellEnd]

I think there was perhaps a theory that LDY - MAN / BHX could benefit imaginatively from a historic route support scheme which was operated briefly in NI?

PSO is an entirely different issue. LDY - DUB had a PSO designation for a while, under a raft of such routes supported under Irish Government policy. The route to London has been similarly designated and supported as a monopoly by the U.K. Government, connecting the ‘remote’ community in the north west into the U.K. capital for key economic reasons. Having decided on that PSO it would make a return to a similar designation on LDY - DUB much less logical under the broad idea of EU PSO rules.

The idea of having PSO status applied to other less well connected cities in GB from LDY - like MAN and BHX - would simply not follow the same economic logic as supporting and preserving the ‘lifeline’ connection into London.

[shamrock7seal]

Don’t forget UK has APD but Republic of Ireland doesn’t so Ryanair would be lessbothered about Irish airports doing the development fee

[buzz_hornet]

D-agra proair crj200 now on deck

[BAladdy]

D-agra proair crj200 now on deck
D-AGRA arrived using the the flight number BM9366. Tomorrow’s STN flights had for the last week been showing as been operated by a S2000 until early this morning. Now showing as operating ER4. I am guessing that we will see tomorrow’s flights operated by this aircraft. If that’s the case then how long is this aircraft staying for??

[buzz_hornet]

D-AGRA arrived using the the flight number BM9366. Tomorrow’s STN flights had for the last week been showing as been operated by a S2000 until early this morning. Now showing as operating ER4. I am guessing that we will see tomorrow’s flights operated by this aircraft. If that’s the case then how long is this aircraft staying for??


Prob til next sat

[BAladdy]

D-AGRA is registered to ProAir Aviation. This aircraft operated for BM back in September for a couple days ex BRS. Does anyone know for sure what is the problem with this route... guessing it’s crewing shortage.. If it is surely it makes sense to lease a aircraft for a longer period until they sort it out. Rather than having a different aircraft every couple of days?.

[BFS BHD]

Many seats left on the Superbreaks charter to Sevilla tomorrow?

[speedbirdATC]

Many seats left on the Superbreaks charter to Sevilla tomorrow?

54 pax outbound this morning

[GAZMO]

Sounds rather on the low side. What size of aircraft?

[A320.b744]

Sounds rather on the low side. What size of aircraft?

Enter Air B738 with 189 seats - 54 pax gives a load factor of 29%.

[Amelia Earhart]

The airport won't work until the economy works and the economy won't work until Stormont stops discriminating against the 2nd city and supports a proper university with 1/3rd of the Northern Ireland students (15-18000 students), decentralises thousands of civil services jobs outside Belfast and sets ring fenced funding and targets for Invest "Belfast". Anything else is a waste of time and the A5 and A6 roads only facilitate further centralisation as opposed to leading to increased investment in the city and West of the Bann.

[Fly757X]

The airport won't work until the economy works and the economy won't work until Stormont stops discriminating against the 2nd city and supports a proper university with 1/3rd of the Northern Ireland students (15-18000 students), decentralises thousands of civil services jobs outside Belfast and sets ring fenced funding and targets for Invest "Belfast". Anything else is a waste of time and the A5 and A6 roads only facilitate further centralisation as opposed to leading to increased investment in the city and West of the Bann.

Someone speaking sense :ok:

[owenc]

I disagree Amelia. I want the A5 and A6 roads, (and also A26), we need more Dual Carriageways. There are plenty of places on those roads that are not in Belfast.

[buzz_hornet]

Enter Air punctuality worked well yesterday. Any claims will offset the cost of the trip

[A320.b744]

January 2018;

LDY handled 14,595 pax in January, which represents a 26% decrease since last year.

All three routes experienced a fall in passenger numbers;

GLA (-3%), LPL (-24%), STN (-50%)

LPL had the highest load factor (74%) followed by GLA (70%) and STN (67%).

February 2018;

LDY handled 14,977 pax in February, which represents a decrease of 29% since last year.

There was a sharp decline in passenger numbers on all routes;

GLA (-11%), LPL (-22%), STN (-52%)

LPL had the highest load factor (78%) followed by GLA and STN (both 72%).


I posted the total number of scheduled seats for sale in 2018 from LDY back in January, but a lot has changed since then, so here are the updated annual seats for sale;

GLA: 83,956 (80,514 + 3,442)
LPL: 66,528
STN: 66,248
EDI: 17,010
PMI: 2,646

There are 236,388 scheduled seats for sale in 2018.

LDY has handled 29,572 passengers on its scheduled services in 2018 so far. With 41,040 seats available over the period, the average load factor is 72%.

Given the airport's performance so far, it seems highly likely that passenger numbers will fall below the 2017 figure of 193,981. I estimate a figure of between 180,000-190,000 pax in 2018, though 2019 should see the airport just about surpass 200,000 pax again, based on current route frequencies.

[Keyvon]

New for S19 is a charter flight to Bourgas (Bulgaria) with BH Air on Mondays during school holidays (Jun, 17 to Jul, 22).

[Alteagod]

Fantastic news from CODA.

[Fly757X]

January 2018;

LDY handled 14,595 pax in January, which represents a 26% decrease since last year.

All three routes experienced a fall in passenger numbers;

GLA (-3%), LPL (-24%), STN (-50%)

LPL had the highest load factor (74%) followed by GLA (70%) and STN (67%).

February 2018;

LDY handled 14,977 pax in February, which represents a decrease of 29% since last year.

There was a sharp decline in passenger numbers on all routes;

GLA (-11%), LPL (-22%), STN (-52%)

LPL had the highest load factor (78%) followed by GLA and STN (both 72%).


I posted the total number of scheduled seats for sale in 2018 from LDY back in January, but a lot has changed since then, so here are the updated annual seats for sale;

GLA: 83,956 (80,514 + 3,442)
LPL: 66,528
STN: 66,248
EDI: 17,010
PMI: 2,646

There are 236,388 scheduled seats for sale in 2018.

LDY has handled 29,572 passengers on its scheduled services in 2018 so far. With 41,040 seats available over the period, the average load factor is 72%.

Given the airport's performance so far, it seems highly likely that passenger numbers will fall below the 2017 figure of 193,981. I estimate a figure of between 180,000-190,000 pax in 2018, though 2019 should see the airport just about surpass 200,000 pax again, based on current route frequencies.

How do the load factors compare to this time last year? Many thanks :D

[A320.b744]

How do the load factors compare to this time last year? Many thanks :D

Load factors are down on both GLA and LPL, despite a reduction in flights. This doesn't bode well for the future of LDY-LPL, and if LDY-EDI performs worse than LDY-GLA, I can see Ryanair axing that route too. Ryanair really need to have an excellent summer at LDY, or their threats to move all operations to BFS could indeed become a reality.

Load factors for STN are the same with bmi Regional this year as they were with Ryanair last year which is a positive note, even though gross passenger numbers on the route have halved.

Glasgow;

Jan 17: 6,010 73%
Jan 18: 5,848 70%

Feb 17: 6,669 82%
Feb 18: 5,967 72%

Liverpool;

Jan 17: 6,623 76%
Jan 18: 5,065 74%

Feb 17: 6,822 82%
Feb 18: 5,334 78%

Stansted;

Jan 17: 7,485 66%
Jan 18: 3,650 67%

Feb 17: 7,606 72%
Feb 18: 3,654 72%

[Fly757X]

Load factors are down on both GLA and LPL, despite a reduction in flights. This doesn't bode well for the future of LDY-LPL, and if LDY-EDI performs worse than LDY-GLA, I can see Ryanair axing that route too. Ryanair really need to have an excellent summer at LDY, or their threats to move all operations to BFS could indeed become a reality.

Load factors for STN are the same with bmi Regional this year as they were with Ryanair last year which is a positive note, even though gross passenger numbers on the route have halved.

Glasgow;

Jan 17: 6,010 73%
Jan 18: 5,848 70%

Feb 17: 6,669 82%
Feb 18: 5,967 72%

Liverpool;

Jan 17: 6,623 76%
Jan 18: 5,065 74%

Feb 17: 6,822 82%
Feb 18: 5,334 78%

Stansted;

Jan 17: 7,485 66%
Jan 18: 3,650 67%

Feb 17: 7,606 72%
Feb 18: 3,654 72%

Will be an important few months ahead. Many thanks.

[cuthere]

There were several cancellations, especially at Glasgow, in February. Hardly surprising numbers are down.

[Fly757X]

There were several cancellations, especially at Glasgow, in February. Hardly surprising numbers are down.

Unfortunately the load factors are alarming.

[A320.b744]

There were several cancellations, especially at Glasgow, in February. Hardly surprising numbers are down.

For the load factor to be the same as last year, it would have required a quarter of flights to GLA to have been cancelled in February. That could have been the case - I don't have the cancelation figures - but even so, Ryanair's loads weren't great last year either, so it wouldn't be much of an achievement to exceed them. Hopefully Loganair achieve better results when they take over the route in October.

[Fly757X]

For the load factor to be the same as last year, it would have required a quarter of flights to GLA to have been cancelled in February. That could have been the case - I don't have the cancelation figures - but even so, Ryanair's loads weren't great last year either, so it wouldn't be much of an achievement to exceed them. Hopefully Loganair achieve better results when they take over the route in October.

From memory there was around 5 cancelled. Summer is always really strong. It will just need to be a really really strong summer. I wonder what is next for the airport after Loganair have settled back in. Increasing the frequencies on that route or keep targeting Manchester and Dublin?

[jamessh]

Hi all,

Sorry this is my first post but I just had to get involved with this forum. I've been monitoring it for a while and what an interesting discussion it has turned out to be! Surely it would be worth the community creating a startup? You would be surprised how little startup capital is needed to start operations with a single ATR 42. There is the potential to bid for the PSO when that comes round shortly and that's 2-4 million in cash right there in capital if an advance payment deal is reached. I have ran up some figures and it is very possible indeed. Just a thought I had, there must be people on pprune who know a thing or two about aviation management and would love to get on board. You have all the residents of Derry and the save the airport Facebook page especially who would be delighted with a low fare community startup never mind the grants and financial backing the council and council committee would give if needed. CODA would be delighted and the landing fees are dirt cheap as it is. Just a thought however let me know what you think...

James,

[Fly757X]

Hi all,

Sorry this is my first post but I just had to get involved with this forum. I've been monitoring it for a while and what an interesting discussion it has turned out to be! Surely it would be worth the community creating a startup? You would be surprised how little startup capital is needed to start operations with a single ATR 42. There is the potential to bid for the PSO when that comes round shortly and that's 2-4 million in cash right there in capital if an advance payment deal is reached. I have ran up some figures and it is very possible indeed. Just a thought I had, there must be people on pprune who know a thing or two about aviation management and would love to get on board. You have all the residents of Derry and the save the airport Facebook page especially who would be delighted with a low fare community startup never mind the grants and financial backing the council and council committee would give if needed. CODA would be delighted and the landing fees are dirt cheap as it is. Just a thought however let me know what you think...

James,

After the previous event of "Irelair" there would little/no support. What the airport needs is the reduction in APD and regional based carriers like the one you suggested. Making a airline is a lot more than playing AirlinesEmpire. As for the PSO I think BMI will continue with it as there hasn't been too many issues with it bar a few weeks ago but that has all cleared up. I like the ambition but realistically it takes much more than a group from an aviation forum to make something like this come off.

[jamessh]

After the previous event of "Irelair" there would little/no support. What the airport needs is the reduction in APD and regional based carriers like the one you suggested. Making a airline is a lot more than playing AirlinesEmpire. As for the PSO I think BMI will continue with it as there hasn't been too many issues with it bar a few weeks ago but that has all cleared up. I like the ambition but realistically it takes much more than a group from an aviation forum to make something like this come off.

Well said Fly757X, I agree to a majority. Obviously this isn't the first option anyone should take however someone needs to come and pick up a few routes and get some destinations on the board. I think the everyone would be a bit surprised at the load's you could get. Even 20,000 pax on a single route is plenty enough to fill an ATR 42 which is the perfect size for the route. Can't understand why Stobart Air won't touch it with barge pole the capacity seems suited to their operations. Not all of their aircraft can be flying EI Regional can they? Just someone needs to go in and show some commitment and consistency in the routes and daily departures, i's in the airports best interest it's too uneconomical to operate an airport with pax numbers that low isn't it?

[Cyrano]

Hi all,
You would be surprised how little startup capital is needed to start operations with a single ATR 42. There is the potential to bid for the PSO when that comes round shortly and that's 2-4 million in cash right there in capital if an advance payment deal is reached.
James,

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

That explains why there are so many successful regional airline startups these days, right? :rolleyes:

Before you go too far in your cunning plan to demand PSO funding up front to cover startup costs (surely an offer that the PSO granting authority couldn't refuse?:hmm:), please look into the concept of "financial fitness".

Here's an extract from a relevant page (https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Airlines/Licensing/Licence-types/Operating-licences/) of the CAA website (my emphasis):
Applicants for a Type A Operating Licence must demonstrate that they have sufficient funding for the first two years of operations, including that they are able to meet their costs for the first three months of operations without income.

The exact amount of funding is established by the CAA based on a realistic business plan submitted by the applicant.

The idea of starting an airline is very seductive. It is also an exceptionally fast route to financial disaster. I would love to see more regional airlines and my sincere good wishes go to anyone with a well-founded plan for launching a new carrier, but I'm sorry, if you come in to this forum and announce in your very first post to an audience which includes a range of current and past airline professionals who still bear the scars "You would be surprised how little startup capital is needed to start operations with a single ATR 42..." you lose every shred of credibility in my eyes. How many regional airlines have you been involved with?

If you are interested in this area, then I would genuinely encourage you to study it in more detail, whether at college or by working in the industry to gain a basic sense of how precarious the economics are.

[Fly757X]

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

That explains why there are so many successful regional airline startups these days, right? :rolleyes:

Before you go too far in your cunning plan to demand PSO funding up front to cover startup costs (surely an offer that the PSO granting authority couldn't refuse?:hmm:), please look into the concept of "financial fitness".

Here's an extract from a relevant page (https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Airlines/Licensing/Licence-types/Operating-licences/) of the CAA website (my emphasis):
Applicants for a Type A Operating Licence must demonstrate that they have sufficient funding for the first two years of operations, including that they are able to meet their costs for the first three months of operations without income.

The exact amount of funding is established by the CAA based on a realistic business plan submitted by the applicant.

The idea of starting an airline is very seductive. It is also an exceptionally fast route to financial disaster. I would love to see more regional airlines and my sincere good wishes go to anyone with a well-founded plan for launching a new carrier, but I'm sorry, if you come in to this forum and announce in your very first post to an audience which includes a range of current and past airline professionals who still bear the scars "You would be surprised how little startup capital is needed to start operations with a single ATR 42..." you lose every shred of credibility in my eyes. How many regional airlines have you been involved with?

If you are interested in this area, then I would genuinely encourage you to study it in more detail, whether at college or by working in the industry to gain a basic sense of how precarious the economics are.


As stated here it is a high risk start. Starting airlines have a lot of under lying costs. Many of them are fundamental to applying for suitable licences. It just cannot be done with out a huge outreach to investors and having that stability in the back pocket. Have a look at Firnas. They are too ambitious in my eyes but they do have an aircraft in livery. This was achieved through years of support from investors and research from business representatives. Not the type found on this type of forum. With your plan it is af you get awarded this lot of if/buts. For example, iPSO contract (Won't happen when there is long established British/Irish companies competing for it) You will then use the money intended for establishing the base and route to fund the equipment. Completely omitting the fact you need type rated pilots and feet on the ground to ensure a smooth operation. LDY-Greater London is also a very niche market. One can simply not intend to operate a PSO route as their only source of "income."

[buzz_hornet]

Few bangs to the head tonight

[jamessh]

Guys I have three points here,

1: Gentlemen it seems there has been a is-understanding. I myself am no Aviation professional but I believe I know more than the average hobbyist. My intention was not to state that I will start an airline out of thin air. It was more of a call to light why nobody has done it. As for the PSO point, this is a good argument. Of course no one would dream of using all of the PSO to put towards equipment you could maybe go through the 50/50 route and have the other half put into the pot to cover any loss making first few months and any troubling periods. I am no aviation expert and never stated that, my intention was to simply argue the point of if worst came to worst at CODA it would perhaps be a viable option for both the airport and the 'airline' who wished to operate flights. I was simply trying to state it is a potentially viable option if done right. Wideroe in Norway have based an entire business on PSO and this was a part of CityWing's business model.

2: There seems to be a constant negativity surrounding startup airlines in general. It's almost like people want or are expecting them to fail before they get in the air. Air Wales was what I believe to be a fairly successful airline (I put it's demise down to poor financial decisions) that was started on the back of nothing. It is an example of a startup that served a relativity niche market and was a massive boost for EGFF. I just don't understand the constant hate towards startup airlines especially in the UK. I think it would be nice to see more popping up every now and again. I do however agree that Firnas are going nowhere. Not being hypocritical but I believe that they are destined to fail for many reasons maybe that calls for a thread? Please link me if there already is one :)

3: Moving away from airline startup talk, the situation with BMI Regional. I am thrilled that CODA now has regular traffic and things do seem to be in an upward trend. I do however disagree with the pricing on the BMI route. The lowest I have found it is £89 return which is what I think is steep considering how cheap landing fees at CODA and Stansted, the aircraft are owned outright, they are relativity fuel efficient and they have 3.8 million extra in the bank to go alongside. It just seems strange that they are over charging for this. Can someone shed light on this? Additionally while we are on this subject does anyone know why Stobart Air have not looked into Derry? I understand that aerarran tried and failed but I just cannot see why 10 years later they didn't give it ago and run for the PSO or any other routers from the airport.

Sorry again guys if I have caused offense or can across wrong. I was just making a point and I have worded it horribly. Let's start afresh? happy flying!

[chuboy]

Stobart (i.e. Aer lingus regional) have only one AT46 anyway and it is committed to the Donegal PSO. The other two frames in their fleet have been parked up for good after a long time in service.

So they won't be looking at operating out of LDY.

[jamessh]

Stobart (i.e. Aer lingus regional) have only one AT46 anyway and it is committed to the Donegal PSO. The other two frames in their fleet have been parked up for good after a long time in service.

So they won't be looking at operating out of LDY.

Thanks for the information :) I thought a low yield airline like Stobart would put two parked ATR 42's to good use. They are in good shape after all... Anyone know what aircraft are inactive?

[EI-BUD]

Jamessh,
I read your post with interest. Many will be negative about start up airlines and with hid reason. The costs involved are enormous, and few banks will fund such a venture. The cash burn is enormous in set up phase and scale is required to make any airline work. The time it takes to get to a scale that makes sense is costly, and as history had shown few achieve it. The number of airlines had declined enormously to boot.

It isn't easy getting accepted for PSOs and even more difficult having new ones implemented. Furthermore, the authority granting them will prefer well established successful airlines who are financially sound for the investment!!!

Citywing and AirWales are good examples that you mention. Clearly neither are with us and they faced the pressures of cost, competition and indeed the lack of any sustainable competitive advantage.

Bmi regional charge top dollar because they can, they have a very limited supply if seats in the market for a premium offering in terms of timings etc. And sun for those who are most time precious. Makes sounds commercial sense to me. The aircraft they operate is far from fuel efficient, two jet engines on an aircraft that burns significantly more fuel than say a turboprop like a saab 2000, ATR72 or Dash8...

Stobart's former self Aer Arann have looked into LDY, and at a point planned new routes to MAN and BHX, but they were cancelled before go live. I'm sure if you look back far enough on this forum you'll see the details. Today for Stobart, on a commercial basis, the question is not whether a route will work, it is a question of where will placing the aircraft give the greatest return, so given the history of LDY routes etc. They may shy away..

Loganair who have a long history of serving airports in Ulster and at one time they were very big operating from CFN, LDY and BHD, could be a great option, as they have expertise in connecting small communities with appropriately sized aircraft on a sustainable footing. They were once a multiple daily operator on e.g. BHD MAN with 146 jets and that was as recent as the end of the 90's!!!!

[Expressflight]

jamessh

It would be great if what you propose was a realiseable ambition but unfortunately it just isn't. I'm not knocking your obvious enthusiasm but people like Cyrano and EI-BUD really do know what they are talking about. I have been involved with three or four such projects in the past 10 years in the UK and Europe and none have progressed beyond the feasibility study stage. "You would be surprised how little startup capital is needed to start operations with a single ATR 42"?? No, you would be amazed how much funding is needed I'm afraid.

[EGPO]

Wish you a the genuine luck. But these guys know their stuff I fear .
It's a massive undertaking to get started . Just look atvStobarts CAX project.
A company as cash richvas they are still had to take a massive grant .
I'm not an expert , I have flown very all aircraft and even that is a serious undertaking .But I admire your determination and spirit .
Perhaps your missing one avenue and not being an expert I'm not sure this could be done. But if you have the community support.
I naturally gather youd have started everywhere from community to town councils - county council's who set transport policy .
But have you thought about approaching Stobart with a form business case .
After getting online and written votes in shops fuel stations etal in say a 40 mile/80km radius around the Airport to show the pax would turn up.
Why REPEAT THE BMI route they are not going anywhere why would they ?.
You need to start somewhere unserved that your reasonable sure will bring you money.
But with good onward links.
England's south is not the centre of the Universe . But you do have LPL huge with Irish air travellers . MAN for its stupendous offerings and double runway high status profile . You'd need a tie on to offer seamless tickets to onward destinations. EG Kbos NYC AMS LFPG (can't think of the short code ) you'd get free slots around London and Southend I expect but that's your lot .
Internal Irish flights to other airports in the republic might be good but again it's lobbying I think to get them. If your so sure of the support . Might not that be a way to get where your aiming at ? Before you plunge into buying a not small aircraft.
Remember Ryanair started small much smaller an EMB120 then moved to aged bac1/11 the sheer eye watering funds you'd need to fly operate maintain and provide a replacement aircraft to cover tech is not for the feint of heart surely ??.
Airport fees , ABP . Do you sell you seats cheap so you end up overbooking and underserved ? Or price high and getvaclow yeild ?.
I'm not even close to expert and these are questions I can come up with.
I feel putting together solid proof that your routes ( and you need to give more than one imho.) Projected numbers really stack up. Lower your sights , SF340 is about the bar for small aircraft is it not?.
One thing there is not in Eireann is any links between the provinces and republic's regional airports .
Eg Shannon , Cork for example . They could work if only because the drive is immense and trains are dying off.
Indo wish you luck but I fear as many said this is not as plain sailing as you wish .

[Fly757X]

Moving on... I heard on the Stephen Nolan show earlier that the airport produced a statement saying that they continue to expect "220,000" passengers to pass through the airport in 2018.

An interesting debate: https://audioboom.com/posts/6777164-is-it-time-to-axe-city-of-derry-airport-one-conservative-councillor-has-described-it-as-a-colossal-waste-of-money-bbcnolan

[A320.b744]

Moving on... I heard on the Stephen Nolan show earlier that the airport produced a statement saying that they continue to expect "220,000" passengers to pass through the airport in 2018.

An interesting debate: https://audioboom.com/posts/6777164-is-it-time-to-axe-city-of-derry-airport-one-conservative-councillor-has-described-it-as-a-colossal-waste-of-money-bbcnolan

LDY management clearly haven't looked at their own figures! Airlines are offering 236,338 seats in 2018. Passenger numbers for January and February 2018 show that 9,416 seats have already not been sold, meaning for LDY to achieve their 'target' of 220,000 pax, there have to be 6,922 or fewer free seats during March-December.

I have looked extensively at the statistics, and unless LDY have a huge announcement up their sleeve, passenger numbers will almost certainly fall again in 2018 to between 180,000-190,000 passengers.

[Fly757X]

LDY management clearly haven't looked at their own figures! Airlines are offering 236,338 seats in 2018. Passenger numbers for January and February 2018 show that 9,416 seats have already not been sold, meaning for LDY to achieve their 'target' of 220,000 pax, there have to be 6,922 or fewer free seats during March-December.

I have looked extensively at the statistics, and unless LDY have a huge announcement up their sleeve, passenger numbers will almost certainly fall again in 2018 to between 180,000-190,000 passengers.

I know, it is completely farcical but it is directed at an audience with little knowledge in this field. Still quite interesting listening nevertheless.

[buzz_hornet]

I know, it is completely farcical but it is directed at an audience with little knowledge in this field. Still quite interesting listening nevertheless.


the councillor didnt know the airport had a stn morning/night flight :ugh::ugh:

[TartinTon]

I also think what is being missed here is what a PSO actually means. There are various flavours that can be used but in this case it's not a case of someone from CODA turning up at the bmi offices each year with a large bag of cash for them to play with. The PSO is an underwrite i.e. the airline is expected to generate certain revenues that COULD get underpinned by the PSO monies up to a certain amount. This dream of a large bag of cash being given to an airline to help with a startup is just ridiculous as that's just not how it works. As for £89 return fares being "steep". You clearly have no notion of airline costs if that's your opinion.

[buzz_hornet]

First choice holidays on sale for 2019

[jamessh]

I think it is something that could be done. Not by me or realistically anyone on this forum but it is an under served market and for all markets under served business opportunities arise. Does anyone know how the holidays are getting on load wise? If they have spare seats why don't they sell tickets for the flight without the holiday package? I just hope someone brings back Faro, it always had good loads.

James,

[chuboy]

Thanks for the information :) I thought a low yield airline like Stobart would put two parked ATR 42's to good use. They are in good shape after all... Anyone know what aircraft are inactive?

EI-CBK and EI-EHH.

I didn't fly them personally but I'm not sure it's fair to say they are in good shape! 30 years of 6-8 sectors a day (if that's not good use I don't know what is), there was never a lot of life left in the old faithfuls. Towards the end they were really showing their age and definitely had their fair share of tech issues.

They're both parked up in Maastricht now.

[A320.b744]

I just hope someone brings back Faro, it always had good loads.


Ryanair operated LDY-FAO with an average load factor of 71% 2010-16, with it ranging from as high as 78% in 2013 to as low as 67% in 2010. Those aren't great loads on a route to one of Europe's most popular holiday destinations, and doesn't bode well for Ryanair making a return. A peak summer charter with TUI could possibly work however.

[BFSGK]

Regarding the proposed closure of the airport, there is one crucial point that hasn't yet been made.

The only people who benefit from LDY without having to pay for the luxury of having a local airport are travellers living in ROI. However, it should be up to the Irish government to provide transport links for their citizens. It should not be the duty of the people of NI as a whole (by paying for the STN PSO through taxes), and in particular the people living in Derry council (who have to pay for the airport itself through their rates).

Here is what users of the airport have to pay;

Living in Derry council: flights, airport, PSO
Living across the rest of NI: flights, PSO
Living in ROI: flights

And here's what people who don't use the airport have to pay

Living in Derry council: airport, PSO
Living across the rest of NI: PSO
Living in ROI: ----


LDY should be good value for money for local people, but that simply isn't the case. Privatising the airport would help reduce the total cost for those living within Derry council, and honestly if the airport can't find an airline willing to operate to London without being handed shed loads of money, it's simply not worth it. Improving the road and rail links between Derry and BFS is the only way that will provide long term economic growth for the region, as well as a proactive approach from the council to promote tourism to the area.

[AerRyan]

You expect to turn around and ask the Irish government for money, and for them to go "ah ya here's a bag of cash for ye to waste"

Perhaps we should start charging the nordies for the use of Dublin Airport? We know some many of ye love using it :)

[jamessh]

BFSGK

I completely agree. I think privatization is the way to go. The airport has been handed buckets of money in the last two years with another 7.8 million still stuck in the works. I think Derry has potential to be a great little regional airport and after a few years of steady expansion even support a few rotations a week of light European routes Amsterdam and Paris etc. The problem is regional airlines are scared of of the two certain profit routes (Liverpool and Glasgow) by Ryanair who pay next to nothing per flight. I think if the airport had a major restructure effort and got rid of Ryanair you would find airlines like Loganair and Eastern or even Flybe move in and start some routes. CODA needs to stop relying on PSO routes and Ryanair's business and start to appeal to airlines who are very specialized in growth of airports like Derry.

The airline and council needs to get a grip and sort out keeping the airport operational and get bloody Ryanair out once and for all ;)

Can anyone add anything?

James,

[owenc]

I was just going to say, why does the ROI government not pay some money towards it considering the number of Donegal people who use it?

Tbh, i'd be willing to close the airport, if we were guaranteed dualing the WHOLE way to Belfast and from Coleraine to Belfast.

We need the railway lines Dualled too.

[owenc]

You expect to turn around and ask the Irish government for money, and for them to go "ah ya here's a bag of cash for ye to waste"

Perhaps we should start charging the nordies for the use of Dublin Airport? We know some many of ye love using it :)
Dublin airport isn't subsidized on a thread.

[AerRyan]

It's not, but the capital for all the projects aren't excusively DAA funded.

In essence, it's a ridiculous proposition.

[Una Due Tfc]

I was just going to say, why does the ROI government not pay some money towards it considering the number of Donegal people who use it?.

I suspect they’d just go CFN-DUB-XXX instead if you tried, and then the airport figures would look even worse.

[A320.b744]

The most cost effective and ultimately the only long term solution for the region would be to invest heavily in the region's rail and road links. If travel times to BFS were reduced, then there would be a lot less need for LDY in the first place.

The main issue is that the money that could fund such investment projects is currently being spent on keeping LDY open. The question is do we close LDY and then invest in the road/rail network using the money made available, or do we wait until alternative funding is found for infrastructure, and only close the airport once the new roads are open?

The first option would be the most efficient and the quickest to implement, but would the local community accept short-term pain for long-term gain?

[owenc]

You will not get journey times down much quicker than 20 minutes.

I take the new dual carriageway through Ballymoney and it still takes 60 minutes.

Speed limits would need be increased to 80mph and roads dualled right the way to Belfast airport.

None of these things will happen in Northern Ireland because the local government is not interested in improving transport.

[Amelia Earhart]

Let's get real, the airport loses £2 million per year, the A6 and A5 need £2 billion of investment, ergo it would be 1000 years before any "savings" from closing LDY could pay for the roads.

[SealinkBF]

Tonight's departure to Stansted is delayed, no hold baggage can be carried so a whole rigmarole underway.
Luggage will be sent over on Wednesday evenings flight.

A shame. PSO Services like this deserve better.

[Fly757X]

Found this when trawling through the webs today: Marcon lands fit-out contract at City of Derry Airport - The Irish News (http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//business/2018/04/17/news/marcon-lands-fit-out-contract-at-city-of-derry-airport-1305930/content.html)

[owenc]

I rarely fly to Stansted from Derry, looks like i’m not missing out on much.

[buzz_hornet]

Tonight's departure to Stansted is delayed, no hold baggage can be carried so a whole rigmarole underway.
Luggage will be sent over on Wednesday evenings flight.

A shame. PSO Services like this deserve better.

Problem with the hold?

[SealinkBF]

Problem with the hold?

The fire extinguisher is not working.

[Fly757X]

CAA stats for April 2018:

LDY movements:

543 (2018)

363 (2017)

Increase of 66%

Passenger numbers:

14,988 (2018) = 42% Increase

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 6,954 = -8%
- LIVERPOOL = 3,916 = +30%
- LONDON (STN) = 4,415

Seems like a good improvement but this was the "Dark Month" when Ryanair pulled STN and BMI were yet to start.

Any news of the Balkan Holidays Charter for next year that was announced in here a while ago. Londonderry was appearing as a departure airport for a while but has since been taken off. Just sheer laziness from the BH team?

[speedbirdATC]

I see LDY - GLA is reduced to 3 x weekly for September and October, with the Tuesday and Sarurday rotations both gone. Is the FR GLA base downsizing early before closing or low demand on these days?
LDY - EDI still showing 5 x weekly from its start date though.

[inOban]

I read on another thread that they are going down to just one based a/c in September and October.

[inOban]

I read on another thread that they are going down to just one based a/c in September and October. Several routes are reduced.

[Callum Paterson]

Indeed. GLA goes down to one aircraft from September. Congratulations to Team GLA, away to Shanghai signing vanity projects with Chinese carriers while they fair to maintain a working relationship with the only airline interested in the GLA-Euro city market. Truly remarkable.

[SealinkBF]

Indeed. GLA goes down to one aircraft from September. Congratulations to Team GLA, away to Shanghai signing vanity projects with Chinese carriers while they fair to maintain a working relationship with the only airline interested in the GLA-Euro city market. Truly remarkable.

I don't believe GLA had any influenece. This is typical Ryanair behaviour. They go where they like.

[Fly757X]

Indeed. GLA goes down to one aircraft from September. Congratulations to Team GLA, away to Shanghai signing vanity projects with Chinese carriers while they fair to maintain a working relationship with the only airline interested in the GLA-Euro city market. Truly remarkable.

Ryanair normally operate 5 per week to LDY with 1 A/C during the winter anyway so probably just a downsizing.

[jamessh]

Hi all,

Rumours flying around at the moment that the airport could be closed by 2019 due to losses of 2.5+ million a year because of a shortfall in funding. They are unable to receive the rest of the grant due to the lack of a governing body (stormont collapse.)

Not good news, would be detrimental for the local economy and area. On a more positive note are the Cello charters using a RJ100 or 737-300?

Thanks,

jamessh - castlederg

[cuthere]

It’s not a rumour. It came straight from the Council. The fact Stormont is a basket case (despite MLAs taking their full pay) means promised monies are nowhere to be seen.

It’s a 737.

[Fly757X]

Hi all,

Rumours flying around at the moment that the airport could be closed by 2019 due to losses of 2.5+ million a year because of a shortfall in funding. They are unable to receive the rest of the grant due to the lack of a governing body (stormont collapse.)

Not good news, would be detrimental for the local economy and area. On a more positive note are the Cello charters using a RJ100 or 737-300?

Thanks,

jamessh - castlederg


^ The first point is one I've kinda missed due to being off the grid for a week whilst camping :) They are using a B733 (G-MISG) that is based in DUB/EIDW during this summer operating for TUI Ireland and TUI UK on the PMI-LDY-PMI Sector.

[BAladdy]

Loganair plan to increase the frequency of there GLA service to 8 x weekly for The start of there S19 schedule on the 01APR19. Flights are showing as being operated on a mix of ER4 and SF3 aircraft.

LM208 LDY 09:20 GLA 10:10 ER4 6
LM208 LDY 11:25 GLA 12:15 ER4 7
LM208 LDY 15:30 GLA 16:20 ER4 135
LM210 LDY 20:20 GLA 21:10 SF3 45
LM210 LDY 20:20 GLA 21:10 ER4 7

LM207 GLA 08:00 LDY 08:50 ER4 6
LM207 GLA 10:00 LDY 10:50 ER4 6
LM207 GLA 14:05 LDY 14:55 ER4 135
LM209 GLA 19:00 LDY 19:50 SF3 45
LM209 GLA 19:00 LDY 19:50 ER4 7

The ER4 aircraft appears to be one of at least 2 ER4’s that are being transferred to LM from BM from the start of S19 schedule.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/loganair-to-launch-new-european-routes-1-4759063

[jamessh]

Good to see that the BMI aircraft are being put to good use. Wouldn’t Bristol and Birmingham or East Midlands be a shout considering BMI operate flights already? Both were successful routes with both carrying over 30,000+ pax.

Just a thought...

thanks,

jamessh

[Fly757X]

Loganair plan to increase the frequency of there GLA service to 8 x weekly for The start of there S19 schedule on the 01APR19. Flights are showing as being operated on a mix of ER4 and SF3 aircraft.

LM208 LDY 09:20 GLA 10:10 ER4 6
LM208 LDY 11:25 GLA 12:15 ER4 7
LM208 LDY 15:30 GLA 16:20 ER4 135
LM210 LDY 20:20 GLA 21:10 SF3 45
LM210 LDY 20:20 GLA 21:10 ER4 7

LM207 GLA 08:00 LDY 08:50 ER4 6
LM207 GLA 10:00 LDY 10:50 ER4 6
LM207 GLA 14:05 LDY 14:55 ER4 135
LM209 GLA 19:00 LDY 19:50 SF3 45
LM209 GLA 19:00 LDY 19:50 ER4 7

The ER4 aircraft appears to be one of at least 2 ER4’s that are being transferred to LM from BM from the start of S19 schedule.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/loganair-to-launch-new-european-routes-1-4759063






Good news for the airport considering the situation in hand. I don't understand why BMI wouldn't want to continue STN anyway as it's load factor from last year was 73.3%, well above their average of 55%. It's beyond me why the council feel they need to support a thriving route. Maybe I've missed something.

[Fly757X]

CAA stats for May 2018:

LDY movements:

618 (2018)

490 (2017)

Increase of 20.7%

Passenger numbers:

15,541 (2018) = 12% Increase

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 7,195 = +4%
- LIVERPOOL = 4,471 = +46%
- LONDON (STN) = 3,898 = +2%

Overall a positive month. The extra capacity on LPL is really showing this year. Thoughts?

[Fly757X]

CAA stats for June 2018:

LDY movements:

694 (2018)

471 (2017)

Increase of 47.3%

Passenger numbers:

15,769 (2018) = 10% Increase

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 7 196 = -1%
- LIVERPOOL = 4 400 = +63%
- LONDON (STN) = Not released yet.
- PALMA DE MALLORCA (PMI) = 424 = +179%

Stats Consistent on last month. Also, very nice to see PMI get a significant increase however this is offset by having an additional flight this year in June.

[Amelia Earhart]

Invest NI have confirmed that the aircraft maintenance facility planned for City of Derry Airport and announced by Martin McGuinness as part of the £7 million support package has been mothballed.

Instead an aircraft maintenance facility will open at Belfast City Airport.

However on this occasion there appears to have been no sleight of hand, rather it appears to be a victim of Brexit apparently.

The facility was planned by a Southern Irish firm but after Brexit the UK will no longer have EU safety certification so the project could not proceed. Even if Brexit is cancelled the project will no doubt have moved on to another airport in the South.

The Belfast operation was planned by a UK company servicing UK planes so is unaffected by Brexit.

This is bad news for Derry, not only for 120 jobs but it was also intended to reduce the losses at CODA and secure the airport's future.

This was covered on the Mark Patterson show on BBC Radio Foyle yesterday.

And what now of the £7 million rescue package in the absence of Stormont?

[Fly757X]

Invest NI have confirmed that the aircraft maintenance facility planned for City of Derry Airport and announced by Martin McGuinness as part of the £7 million support package has been mothballed.

Instead an aircraft maintenance facility will open at Belfast City Airport.

However on this occasion there appears to have been no sleight of hand, rather it appears to be a victim of Brexit apparently.

The facility was planned by a Southern Irish firm but after Brexit the UK will no longer have EU safety certification so the project could not proceed. Even if Brexit is cancelled the project will no doubt have moved on to another airport in the South.

The Belfast operation was planned by a UK company servicing UK planes so is unaffected by Brexit.

This is bad news for Derry, not only for 120 jobs but it was also intended to reduce the losses at CODA and secure the airport's future.

This was covered on the Mark Patterson show on BBC Radio Foyle yesterday.

And what now of the £7 million rescue package in the absence of Stormont?


It's a real pity but not a shocker. I would not have ruled out a British firm taking the funding over, but now that BHD is getting a facility I doubt another firm would open up in this proximity.

The funding needs released without a doubt, I just hope a higher percentage of it goes to route development now (Should it get released).

[Alteagod]

Will they be building hangers etc?

[Startledgrapefruit]

Maybe that's what they were looking at in the staff car park the other day.
The old Shorts sheds were down there.

[speedbirdATC]

The airport was on with Mark Patterson today on Radio Foyle. Lots of upbeat news for a change. Chatted about the new EDI route as if it was breaking news. On the more positive side Loganair are upping GLA to 10 flights per week from next summer, and there also seems to be possibly, maybe just maybe some movement on the funding. Clive Coleman was mentioning that there is interest from both Loganair and bmi to operate more routes too. Things could be turning for the better it seems. Fingers crossed.

[cuthere]

Hi Speedbird,

The increase in Loganair to GLA is also old news. They’ll be operating an Embraer (on loan from BMI) on most of the flights from the start of the summer schedule. The strange thing is, whilst they’ve increased to 10x week each way, there are still days with no flights on the route. All good to see though, and even better that that tw@t Patterson is actually bringing some positive news regarding the airport for once.

For additional routes, one would imagine MAN a no-brainer, with BHX and BRS also sensible and proven to have demand from LDY.

[speedbirdATC]

Hi Speedbird,

The increase in Loganair to GLA is also old news. They’ll be operating an Embraer (on loan from BMI) on most of the flights from the start of the summer schedule. The strange thing is, whilst they’ve increased to 10x week each way, there are still days with no flights on the route. All good to see though, and even better that that tw@t Patterson is actually bringing some positive news regarding the airport for once.

For additional routes, one would imagine MAN a no-brainer, with BHX and BRS also sensible and proven to have demand from LDY.


Hi cuthere

Indeed would love to see MAN, BHX and BRS back. Surely bmi could look at doing at least one more STN rotation during the day as well. Doesn’t make sense to me having it sit there idle for 7 hours each day.
But some good news for a change, and that can only be a good thing in terms of publicity.

[shamrock7seal]

Crew efficiency would be better too if they did 4 sectors back to back instead of just two and the nothing.

[Amelia Earhart]

The Derry Journal covered the aircraft maintenance project today and it looks more sinister than initially appeared.

The project was originally planned for Derry and had a funding package in place. Apparently at the preliminary stage the project failed however it is only being revealed now that the Belfast project is copper fastened. Why was this news delayed?

Since Derry Airport first came up with the idea and had funding in place, when it didn't pass the preliminary stage why was the second company not engaged for Derry, why did it instead end up in Belfast?

At what stage did Invest NI approach the company for the Belfast project? On what basis was it decided which of the two companies should locate at each airport?

Why did Invest NI not propose both companies locate at LDY to create an industry cluster like they like to do in other industries in Belfast? The airport has sufficient land and sufficient landing slots to facilitate two such companies.

It's like the 1000 Stream jobs all over again. Or the film studios for Shackelton barracks. Or a thousand other examples........

I can't remember a single example when a Belfast project fell through but the Derry project completed, certainly not when government or any of its agencies are involved.

[GAZMO]

Ryanair sale
https://nitravelnews.com/news/ryanair-celebrate-new-route-with-seat-sale/

[Fly757X]

CAA stats for July 2018:

LDY movements:

779 (2018)

540 (2017)

Increase of 44.3%

Passenger numbers:

18,288 (2018) = 8% Increase

16,880 (2017)

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 7712 = -2%
- LIVERPOOL = 4488 = +40%
- LONDON (STN) = 4599 = +6%
- PALMA DE MALLORCA (PMI) = 1,453 = +3%
- EDINBURGH = 36 (One off charter for Irish Open carrying the European tour representatives)

Overall again a positive month with increases and a steady loads all in the right places. I'm surprised at the movements being so high. Yes of course the Irish open brought a lot in the first week with Jets and Cameraships but not into the 200's. Will be nice seeing the increase on EDI next year all being well... ;) Thoughts?

[speedbirdATC]

CAA stats for July 2018:

LDY movements:

779 (2018)

540 (2017)

Increase of 44.3%

Passenger numbers:

18,288 (2018) = 8% Increase

16,880 (2017)

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 7712 = -2%
- LIVERPOOL = 4488 = +40%
- LONDON (STN) = 4599 = +6%
- PALMA DE MALLORCA (PMI) = 1,453 = +3%
- EDINBURGH = 36 (One off charter for Irish Open carrying the European tour representatives)

Overall again a positive month with increases and a steady loads all in the right places. I'm surprised at the movements being so high. Yes of course the Irish open brought a lot in the first week with Jets and Cameraships but not into the 200's. Will be nice seeing the increase on EDI next year all being well... ;) Thoughts?

It’ll be interesting to see if the EDI numbers can match or exceed the GLA numbers.
Those STN numbers surely suggest that this continues to be bmi’s best performing route. The argument for further rotations are clearly a no brainer.

[Fly757X]

It’ll be interesting to see if the EDI numbers can match or exceed the GLA numbers.
Those STN numbers surely suggest that this continues to be bmi’s best performing route. The argument for further rotations are clearly a no brainer.


PMI also going very well. on average there was 145.3 people per flight out of a possible 148 (LF of 98%). Hopefully Thomson will potentially look at extending the service from the start of June to the end of August or potentially adding another route to supplement. They had two seasons to prove the viability, now it should be time to look for expansion. Only thing in my eyes that is stopping any expansion is fleet capacity but that's another topic.

Anyone know what happened to the Balkan Holidays rumours here? "Derry" was listed for a while on their site but has since been removed.

Anyway all eyes on Ryanair's S19 releases now. I seen a comment from the airport suggesting they would like to see increase to LPL in the near future. Should it be taken as a hint or a pinch of salt?

[speedbirdATC]

PMI also going very well. on average there was 145.3 people per flight out of a possible 148 (LF of 98%). Hopefully Thomson will potentially look at extending the service from the start of June to the end of August or potentially adding another route to supplement. They had two seasons to prove the viability, now it should be time to look for expansion. Only thing in my eyes that is stopping any expansion is fleet capacity but that's another topic.

Anyone know what happened to the Balkan Holidays rumours here? "Derry" was listed for a while on their site but has since been removed.

Anyway all eyes on Ryanair's S19 releases now. I seen a comment from the airport suggesting they would like to see increase to LPL in the near future. Should it be taken as a hint or a pinch of salt?

LPL really needs to be daily. In fact you could argue for double daily on certain days, especially during football weekends.
It will be interesting to see what happens if/when the funding money arrives and how it gets spent also.

[Fly757X]

LPL really needs to be daily. In fact you could argue for double daily on certain days, especially during football weekends.
It will be interesting to see what happens if/when the funding money arrives and how it gets spent also.


I'd say keep it well away from the LCC's at all cost. Ryanair may have helped the airport strive in the early 2000's but left it as a mess between 2014-2016. I would say earmark some of it for BHX/MAN but also a route to DUB. The international connection will prove vital to the local economy. Especially after the rapid growth Dublin has seen as of late. I would've liked to see Flybe return and operate much to the extent they do at Knock but with their situation with Stobart etc I would say they will look at clearing that up to see the fleet their left with for their own Schedules from their main bases. However at the moment I would hold it back. If (as the airport have said) BMI and Loganair are in negotiations at present. I would push as much out of the airlines before you release the funding.

[Fly757X]

New for S19 is a charter flight to Bourgas (Bulgaria) with BH Air on Mondays during school holidays (Jun, 17 to Jul, 22).

Was reading through and stumbled on this... It was a a departure airport listing on their website for a while. I take it is was quietly axed before it was officially announced?

[scodaman]

Anyone know what the Flybmi STN load factor was for July 2018?

[cuthere]

Scodaman,

try reading the thread. The figures are listed comprehensively above.

[Fly757X]

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/council-demands-urgent-release-of-2-5m-for-coda-london-route-1-8626638

Maybe I'm missing something here but surely it would be in BMR's best interests (considering it's success) to retain this route, even if the PSO is scrapped? Also from the interviews I've read from figures within BMI they're intention is to expand (overtime) in LDY. It seems strange that the council are still plugging for funding to secure what seems to be a very profitable and secure route. Of course the airline will want all the funding it can get but it must be viable without it?

[TartinTon]

What makes you think it's profitable? There's normally a reason why routes are PSO routes. High loads guarantee nothing and despite the garbage in the local press of BMI "fleecing" passengers on fares, a cursory look at their website tells a completely different story apart from the peak Mon/Thu/Sun flights

[cuthere]

What makes you think it's profitable?

Other than Flybmi saying multiple times that it’s profitable, and their best performing route....nothing.

[scodaman]

If reports are correct the the Flybmi Derry pso contract was for 2 years which means it is up March 2019 as per story below. Almost like Brexit lol.

Recently the airport ceo on Radio Foyle said that the route may again go to tender when the 2 years is up for AN Other airline(s) to apply.

However, at the moment it is possible to book Flybmi Derry - STN for well past the end of the PSO window so I wonder does this mean that initial feelers by Derry City Council has revealed that no-one else is interested after the end of PSO date, even if it goes to tender?

“Flights will begin on Sunday 26 March and the government will fund the route over the 2017/18 and 2018/19 financial years.”

Read more at: https://www.derryjournal.com/news/business/bmi-to-take-on-derry-to-london-route-1-7835068

[TartinTon]

Other than Flybmi saying multiple times that it’s profitable, and their best performing route....nothing.
Really? Must have missed that...any sources/articles you can point to?

[Cyrano]

However, at the moment it is possible to book Flybmi Derry - STN for well past the end of the PSO window so I wonder does this mean that initial feelers by Derry City Council has revealed that no-one else is interested after the end of PSO date, even if it goes to tender?

More likely the route is open for bookings in order to allow as much forward-booking activity as possible, and one of three things will happen in due course:

the PSO will continue, bmi will get the new contract, and nothing changes;
the PSO will continue with another airline, but the timings will be similar (since that's part of the PSO) and bookings will be transferred over to the new operator (with customers having the right to cancel, e.g. if the London airport is changed)
the PSO will cease, and passengers who have booked will be refunded. This should be known well in advance of the EU261 compensation window (2 weeks before departure) so no compensation will be due, just a refund.

[Fly757X]

Really? Must have missed that...any sources/articles you can point to?

https://www.derrynow.com/news/first-anniversary-successful-city-derry-airport-london-stansted-route-flybmi/223179

There is also a few more general ones pointing to future expansion from LDY or at least the CCO is "keen". I could only see the CCO saying something along those things if the PSO itself is profitable. There was also a few from when it launched saying it was its fasted selling route. Whilst yes there is no certainty on profits but if the aircraft leaving LDY have a load factor 20% higher than their average I would say they must be spinning a pretty good profit.

[virginblue]

Other than Flybmi saying multiple times that it’s profitable, and their best performing route....nothing.


It could be profitable for flybmi because of the PSO, but not without it?

[Fly757X]

It could be profitable for flybmi because of the PSO, but not without it?

Ultimately that is what a PSO is supposed to do, however this PSO seem to come about in a mad rush to prove the viability of the airport. Locally it was perceived that if there was no London route, it would mean no airport. It seems to me anyway that this was just a way to entice an airline in before the 28th of March (obviously this didn’t come to pass) to ensure the direct continuation of the route. It also raises the question about other routes operated under a very similar schedule in their network however with a lower Load Factor and also without the PSO contract in place. What’s the deal with them? Maybe I’m just massively over thinking things again! However it does leave me curious about what “success” this route does actually have.

[TartinTon]

https://www.derrynow.com/news/first-anniversary-successful-city-derry-airport-london-stansted-route-flybmi/223179

There is also a few more general ones pointing to future expansion from LDY or at least the CCO is "keen". I could only see the CCO saying something along those things if the PSO itself is profitable. There was also a few from when it launched saying it was its fasted selling route. Whilst yes there is no certainty on profits but if the aircraft leaving LDY have a load factor 20% higher than their average I would say they must be spinning a pretty good profit.

Hmm read the article...nowhere does it say that it's profitable or one of their strongest routes as cuthere alluded....sounds like normal "hug the locals" type blurb to me from the CCO.

I suspect the virginblue is spot on...without the PSO it wouldn't be there....but that's one of the reasons for a PSO in the first place, isn't it?

Another reason is that the airport is so convinced that there is a strong business case for a route that they'll offer it as a PSO in the belief that the route results will be so good that the airline never has to make a call on the PSO cash (Flybe NQYLGW as an example)

I don't believe that's the case here as in my experience there is always a price ceiling on the NI market that prevents a lot of routes from being profitable.

[cuthere]

It’s no allusion. The CEO was on the Mark Paterson show a while back (BBC radio Foyle - I’m sure you’re an avid listener). Would you like me to find the exact point, during the exact program, on the exact day of the exact week he said it? Better still. Take my word for it. I have no agenda here which would lead me to lie. In fact I think BMI having the PSO is a shambles, and would prefer an airline who could a) avoid the issues they had with multiple cancellations earlier in the year, and b) not charge sometimes well north of £200 rtn to one of the worst airports in Europe (STN).

[virginblue]

It’s no allusion. The CEO was on the Mark Paterson show a while back (BBC radio Foyle - I’m sure you’re an avid listener). Would you like me to find the exact point, during the exact program, on the exact day of the exact week he said it? Better still. Take my word for it. I have no agenda here which would lead me to lie. In fact I think BMI having the PSO is a shambles, and would prefer an airline who could a) avoid the issues they had with multiple cancellations earlier in the year, and b) not charge sometimes well north of £200 rtn to one of the worst airports in Europe (STN).


The point of that type of PSO is to guarantee that an air service is available, not that people can literally fly for free. We are not exactly looking at a remote island airport where the air service is the only means to reach the outside world.

[cuthere]

Yes. I understand the purpose of a PSO. However, BMI are essentially a business airline (the route was mostly used for leisure travel when 15000/month frequented it - I’m sure you know all about the history of the route). They are an expensive business airline. Thankfully when using them before (primarily BRS to ABZ) it’s been business trips and not coming from my pocket.

As for a “remote island airport” I can be in London more quickly than someone who lives in some parts of England. Although, it’s difficult to decipher your sentence, so you might actually agree with that point.

[Fly757X]

Right fair enough, when the route was announced it would've been believed to have been nonviable but this is almost two years later now. Loads are pretty impressive and the airline is saying its a success. Maybe they haven't said it is a financial success but it doesn't mean it isn't. I'm baffled at how this not viable. When compared to other routes of a similar nature that they (BMR) operate this route should be right up there with their most financially successful at this time (factoring loads for last year anyway). I don't understand where the market between LDY-STN is leaking money and thus making it financially unacceptable to run without support in place. Obviously APD is there but I wouldn't imagine that constrains the route too much. The Market as proven to be relatively strong with fares (at least till recently) being up with their other offerings and load factors exceeding their average by a country mile. I'm not by no means saying that there wasn't a need for the PSO contract in the first place but now after a year of load factors that are above their average. Would they not be inclined to continue the routes under their own funds considering its outselling a range of their current routes? (In the event the PSO funding is cancelled.)


Many thanks.

Jamie

[CaptainDoony]

BMI might have decent enough loads but just a cursory glance at tomorrow’s departures shows fares for just £60 the night before! And plenty other dates in the next couple of weeks show that fares are well below the normal BMI going rate on other routes.

Compare that to a route like ABZ-BRS (about 50-60% average monthly load factor) and you’re looking at over £300 o/w on the same date.

[owenc]

BMI are expensive for NI. Easyjet regularly cost £70 return to Stansted days before

[cuthere]

CaptainDoony. Remarkable. I looked last night and a return leaving today, returning Sunday was £250 rtn on the Flybmi website. Further, I’ve used BRS-ABZ when the plane has had ten pax, at most.

[virginblue]

A PSO on a route like LDY-STN should not be in place to subsidize cheap tickets for leisure flights or VFR-travel, to be honest, as alternatives are available for that type of travel 60 miles away from BFS. The route should be geared towards business and business-related travel that benefits the local economy, allowing day returns etc. Taxpayer's money should not be spent on making travel more comfortable for bargain-hunters.

[Fly757X]

S19 Ryanair LPL-LDY


Schedules stay the same this year with the same times aswell. Saturday's flight is again operated by a PMI based B738.

[Fly757X]

CAA stats for August 2018:

LDY movements:

589 (2018)

510 (2017)

Increase of 15.49%

Passenger numbers:

17,665 (2018) = 9% Increase

16,155 (2017)

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 7673 = -2%
- LIVERPOOL = 4706 = +46%
- LONDON (STN) = 4713 = +8%
- PALMA DE MALLORCA (PMI) = 609 = -12%

The extra LPL rotations are clearly being used.

[Fly757X]

CAA stats for August 2018:

LDY movements:

589 (2018)

510 (2017)

Increase of 15.49%

Passenger numbers:

17,665 (2018) = 9% Increase

16,155 (2017)

Passengers per route:

- GLASGOW = 7673 = -2%
- LIVERPOOL = 4706 = +46%
- LONDON (STN) = 4713 = +8%
- PALMA DE MALLORCA (PMI) = 609 = -12%

The extra LPL rotations are clearly being used.

I also ran the Load Factors,

Glasgow: 92.27%
Liverpool: 95.77%
London: 82.92%
Palma De Mallorca: 82.3% (Assuming no one went on the outbound to PMI on the 20th however it includes the very few that would've went on the 13th.)

[cuthere]

Very strong LFs, especially the London route when prices are considered. It’ll be interesting to see how Loganair get on when they take over GLA and how EDI works out.

[Fly757X]

Very strong LFs, especially the London route when prices are considered. It’ll be interesting to see how Loganair get on when they take over GLA and how EDI works out.

Mallorca is also really impressive considering the outbound on the 13th is empty. When the 13th isn't taken into consideration the LF ends up over 100% so clearly doing well too.

[scodaman]

Very strong LFs, especially the London route when prices are considered. It’ll be interesting to see how Loganair get on when they take over GLA and how EDI works out.


Can't see Loganair GLA doing as well as the Ryanair product. The flight times are a joke. For PR City of Derry Airport regularly posts pics from the airport bar on their Facebook feed of 'Johns Stag Party about to leave on a Friday for a great weekend in Glasgow, best of luck John hope you and the lads have a great time' or 'Sharon's hen Party blah blah for' the same thing.

Kills me to say it but when it kicks in a weekend in Glasgow is a non starter with Loganair from LDY as the Friday flight goes at 8.15pm at night. A day is lost already.

Bizarrely, the return is a great time of 18.55pm on a Sunday.

[sinbad73]

Can't see Loganair GLA doing as well as the Ryanair product. The flight times are a joke. For PR City of Derry Airport regularly posts pics from the airport bar on their Facebook feed of 'Johns Stag Party about to leave on a Friday for a great weekend in Glasgow, best of luck John hope you and the lads have a great time' or 'Sharon's hen Party blah blah for' the same thing.

Kills me to say it but when it kicks in a weekend in Glasgow is a non starter with Loganair from LDY as the Friday flight goes at 8.15pm at night. A day is lost already.

Bizarrely, the return is a great time of 18.55pm on a Sunday.

Maybe Loganair don't want the stag & hen market and have timed their Friday flight accordingly?

[cuthere]

Well, Edinburgh is an hour up the road, and come April there will be two flights to Glasgow on a Friday, with good timings.

[mart901]

Can't see Loganair GLA doing as well as the Ryanair product. The flight times are a joke. For PR City of Derry Airport regularly posts pics from the airport bar on their Facebook feed of 'Johns Stag Party about to leave on a Friday for a great weekend in Glasgow, best of luck John hope you and the lads have a great time' or 'Sharon's hen Party blah blah for' the same thing.

Kills me to say it but when it kicks in a weekend in Glasgow is a non starter with Loganair from LDY as the Friday flight goes at 8.15pm at night. A day is lost already.

Bizarrely, the return is a great time of 18.55pm on a Sunday.Well I can just see a stag party in Glasgow wanting to check in for an 11.30am Sunday flight with hangover in EDI. For a lot of people the Friday evening flight is better no need to take a day off work. In the end Ryanair will be mass market and Loganair will take the people who can't or won't travel to EDI. Interesting looking at how flybe have developed NOC up against FR BHX vs EMA as a comparison.

[cuthere]

Are the only people who will be using these flights on stag dos? Is that all Northern Ireland exports?

Your sentence regarding NOC has completely lost me. You might want to look at that again. Cheers!

[mart901]

Are the only people who will be using these flights on stag dos? Is that all Northern Ireland exports?

Your sentence regarding NOC has completely lost me. You might want to look at that again. Cheers!
I wouldn't for one minute assume the only people using it will be on stag do's, I was replying to a post regarding the same. With regards to NOC BE started up from BHX where FR were already established on EMA-NOC, initially they made little impact and now they are more or less double what they were pax wise, certainly during summer-my point being its possible for a small prop operator to compete with FR if the market is right, and I believe GLA is where the greater percentage of people want to fly to LDY from, not EDI. In the same way BHX and EMA are close, Birmingham being a bigger market for NOC than the East Midlands, people will obviously go for the cheaper fares of FR and make the journey but its not necessarily a given.

[scodaman]

[QUOTE=cuthere;10261583]Are the only people who will be using these flights on stag dos? Is that all Northern Ireland exports?

No. Replace stag/hen parties with 'Groups of people who willingly pay Ryanair some £££ for a flight that leaves Derry early on a Friday afternoon for a weekend in Glasgow.'

[Fly757X]

The new GLA times are very well suited for football, and will become even more so in April. Loganair have clearly put so thought it to this as it is also a SAAB 2000 operating the Sunday evening rotation.

[mart901]

[QUOTE=cuthere;10261583]Are the only people who will be using these flights on stag dos? Is that all Northern Ireland exports?

No. Replace stag/hen parties with 'Groups of people who willingly pay Ryanair some £££ for a flight that leaves Derry early on a Friday afternoon for a weekend in Glasgow.'
And then have to cut the weekend short checking in at 09.30am on a Sunday When I think about the people I know who work Mon-Fri non of them can leave early or randomly take a Friday off to catch a flight at 12.30pm.

[cuthere]

Really? People you work with never qualify for annual leave, or time off for hours worked?

[mart901]

Really? People you work with never qualify for annual leave, or time off for hours worked?
Is that really what I said? And you don't think people go away at the weekend without taking annual leave? Does everyone want to use up a days leave to fit around FR for a cheap flight? Or will most people in the area carry on as normal and fly on one of 8 daily EDI flights or 7 daily GLA flights from BFS/BHD. I'd still love an answer to how the 11.30am flight home is great for anyones weekend?
​​

[cuthere]

Anyone’s weekend will be planned well in advance. The disposable income to decide on a Monday to have a bimble to Glasgow or Edinburgh at the weekend just isn’t there for LDY’s catchment. Ergo, people WILL book leave for weekends away etc. And if the 11.30 return flight doesn’t suit (all change come April as 757 says above) then they can fly with EZY to BFS and hope they’re as lucky as you are with on-time flights to that airport, with that airline.

[Amelia Earhart]

Airport remains at significant risk due to ongoing doubts over London route (https://www.derrynow.com/news/derry-airport-remains-significant-risk-due-ongoing-doubts-london-route/250366)

The Derry News (and Derry Journal and Radio Foyle) has been reporting that the council are considering the future of the airport again, this time over the future of the PSO route to London.

Strangely the council are blaming Storming over their failure to pay the promised £7 million development package, £4.5 million of which was for the ill fated aircraft repair centre (although a plan for Belfast City Airport proceeds) and £2.5 million which was for route development.

The route development money was for new routes not for extending the London PSO which was a Treasury project not a Stormont project (that's why it ever happened in the past place) so I don't understand how the council are linking the two.

If Stormont had made the money available as planned it would have been spent by now anyway and we'd hopefully have a couple of extra routes. So yes, the Stormont failure has had a negative impact but not on the London route.

What was Council's original plan for the route after the initial PSO had completed?

My question is, how much has the London PSO actually cost? I know £2.5 million was set aside but this is only called upon if the route is not viable. The route seems well supported so what has been the cost and how much if any is needed going forward. Presumably something since the Council are complaining about it.

And would BMI Regional not continue the route in the absence of a PSO since it is now established?

BHD and BFS don't require PSOs, Ryanair didn't require one for 18 years at LDY.

And as for talk of closing the airport, Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Kerry, Knock and Donegal have airports so why shouldn't Derry?

If the airport doesn't work it is because the economy is not working. To fix the airport you need to fix the economy. That is what the City Deal is about. If you are closing the airport then you are admitting that the City Deal hasn't worked.

"It's the economy stupid" and closing the airport isn't going to improve anything.

[Fly757X]

Airport remains at significant risk due to ongoing doubts over London route (https://www.derrynow.com/news/derry-airport-remains-significant-risk-due-ongoing-doubts-london-route/250366)

What was Council's original plan for the route after the initial PSO had completed?

My question is, how much has the London PSO actually cost? I know £2.5 million was set aside but this is only called upon if the route is not viable. The route seems well supported so what has been the cost and how much if any is needed going forward. Presumably something since the Council are complaining about it.

And would BMI Regional not continue the route in the absence of a PSO since it is now established?

BHD and BFS don't require PSOs, Ryanair didn't require one for 18 years at LDY.

"It's the economy stupid" and closing the airport isn't going to improve anything.

I've brought up the same point previously but I've just been rebuffed, being told that it must not be viable. I would say with Loadfactors of 75+ (%) would say otherwise.

[cuthere]

Let’s look at the facts:

- the load factor on the LDY-STN is the highest across the BM route network (I stand to be corrected on that, but would be astonished)

- fares are often high, sometimes very high, even at decent lead-times.

- BMI are happy to leave the aircraft on the tarmac between ~10am and 5.30pm every day, and indeed from 10.50am Saturday until 13.40 Sunday.

One would imagine if they weren’t onto a nice little earner that they would make use of the EMB during the long periods of downtime rather than have it sitting at LDY.

[SWBKCB]

One would imagine if they weren’t onto a nice little earner that they would make use of the EMB during the long periods of downtime rather than have it sitting at LDY.

bmi aren't leaving the a/c on the ground because they're making so much money they don't need to make any more - it's because there aren't any profitable alternatives and it's the cheapest thing to do

[inOban]

Isn't Loganair associated with BMI? Couldn't the plane operate the GLA service?

[SWBKCB]

Isn't Loganair associated with BMI? Couldn't the plane operate the GLA service?

Would it make money? or lose less than not moving?

[Fly757X]

Isn't Loganair associated with BMI? Couldn't the plane operate the GLA service?

Yes, however with the times that it is on the ground it would be impossible to achieve the times that Loganair will be operating. I could see it operating on select days such as a Tuesday which after the 1st of April will be the only day without a flight to GLA from LDY with Friday and Sunday having two.

[Fly757X]

Would it make money? or lose less then not moving?

Depends of the day of operation. However with the times it would be available for I would see MAN/BHX being a better fit for it.

[cuthere]

Loganair will be using BM EMB front April on LDY-GLA as well as some other routes out of GLA.

[Fly757X]

Loganair will be using BM EMB front April on LDY-GLA as well as some other routes out of GLA.

They (G-RJXJ will become G-SAJB and G-RJXF will become G-SAJC) are being transfered to Loganair so LDY will still have its BMR ERJ aswell during the day.

[chuboy]

One would imagine if they weren’t onto a nice little earner that they would make use of the EMB during the long periods of downtime rather than have it sitting at LDY.
Have you heard of supply and demand?

Increase supply when demand stays the same = prices come down to meet new equilibrium = yields are lower

It's true the aircraft could be used for other routes, but why take the risk? Where do you fly the aircraft and still guarantee you will make more money than you lose by leaving it parked?

[Albert Hall]

If it's anything like other PSOs, the DFT are very restrictive about where a PSO-funded aircraft can be used in addition to its core task. They seem to have a view that it may be state aid and so don't normally permit it.

[Fly757X]

This is an idea completely stolen from another thread (BOU) however it puts everything into perspective. (Thank you adfly)

BMI Regional (ERJ145)

STN - 13 Weekly.

Loganair (SB20/SF34)

GLA - 5 Weekly.

Ryanair (B738)

EDI - 5 Weekly

LPL - 4 Weekly

Superbreak/Enter Air (B738)

AEY - Out on the 25th of January, returning the 28th,


This gives an average of 27 flights per week, An extra five on last year. This is an average of just under 4 per day.

[Amelia Earhart]

54 flights. :)

The planes have to arrive before they depart.

[Amelia Earhart]

BFS has 58,000 aircraft movements per year.

BHD has 36,000 per year.

LDY has 2,000 per year.

The airport is handling half the passengers it did 10 years ago. The problem however is not caused by lack of passengers but by lack of flights. If more flights operated, there would be more passengers.

Ryanair operated successfully at the airport for years. Stansted operated for 18 years, Alicante for 9 years. Ryanair did not lose money otherwise they would have pulled the plug. When they finally did, it was due to relocating to BFS not due to LDY itself.

[Cyrano]

The problem however is not caused by lack of passengers but by lack of flights. If more flights operated, there would be more passengers.

I understand what you're saying, but couldn't that be said about all or most airports? Isn't the key question for an airline with additional spare aircraft capacity (and therefore the opportunity to provide "more flights"): is a route to LDY likely to be more profitable than any of the alternatives?

Ryanair operated successfully at the airport for years. Stansted operated for 18 years, Alicante for 9 years. Ryanair did not lose money otherwise they would have pulled the plug. When they finally did, it was due to relocating to BFS not due to LDY itself.
Again, isn't this a case of "we're not losing money, but we reckon now that we could make more money by relocating our aircraft to another airport"?

This is the conundrum that so many smaller airports face. Whereas once upon a time there would have been a "local" carrier with some local loyalty, or else an airline would have decided "we want to serve Northern Ireland, now let's think about which airport we want to use", these days most of the airlines are (of necessity) more agnostic - they fly wherever they can make the most money (which I suppose is understandable behaviour for private companies) so the competition for a service by Airline X is no longer just the neighbouring airports but also airports on the other side of Europe (so Ryanair might say "with this aircraft in Alicante we can fly to LDY or to (say) Kaunas or to Ancona or to Memmingen - and LDY is not the most profitable, so too bad...").

C.

[speedbirdATC]

FR still haven’t loaded EDI for summer 19 yet. Hopefully it’s not dropped already and they will add it soon.
On another note it seems GLA is doing pretty well with selected dates showing as sold out. Granted these are days using the Saab 340, but still nice to see the service being used well. Do Loganair have any spare Saab 2000 capacity that could be utilised on these days?

[cuthere]

Doesn’t bode well for EDI. Looks like most of the other routes from EDI have been loaded. Still, it’s Ryanair. What do we expect?

[speedbirdATC]

Wouldn’t shock me to see them back on STN if they could get some of the proposed Stormont monies. As you say, it is Ryanair, expect anything.

[cuthere]

Ha! You could just imagine the scene. After years of profitable operation on the STN route they return because of PSO funding.

[Fly757X]

FR still haven’t loaded EDI for summer 19 yet. Hopefully it’s not dropped already and they will add it soon.
On another note it seems GLA is doing pretty well with selected dates showing as sold out. Granted these are days using the Saab 340, but still nice to see the service being used well. Do Loganair have any spare Saab 2000 capacity that could be utilised on these days?

FR seem to be evaluating all the routes that were added to EDI from GLA as atleast a few days ago none of the routes that were moved had been added. Loganair don’t seem to have much spare 2000 capacity, especially now with the CFE IOM agreement. It would be nice to see alongside the Sunday service.

[speedbirdATC]

Ha! You could just imagine the scene. After years of profitable operation on the STN route they return because of PSO funding.
Can you imagine the 90 minutes of fun Mark Patterson would have with that.

[cuthere]

Would that be before or after he films himself walking across the Peace Bridge? Joking aside, whilst BMI have served STN well over the last few years, I wouldn’t be averse to a change of operator on this.

[speedbirdATC]

Would that be before or after he films himself walking across the Peace Bridge? Joking aside, whilst BMI have served STN well over the last few years, I wouldn’t be averse to a change of operator on this.
If memory serves me correctly, I believe the only other interested party at the time of the PSO tender was Stobart. I wonder if they would have done a better job. They could have possibly utilised aircraft downtime better with perhaps a DUB rotation or two.