Stobart Air-2 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

rowly6339

6th Jul 2017, 20:26

Makes some interesting reading. Didn't know that there was bad blood over the Cityjet deal going south.

New Stobart Group boss has ambitious plans to see London's Southend airport flying high - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/new-stobart-group-boss-has-ambitious-plans-to-see-londons-southend-airport-flying-high-35899803.html)

rowly6339

7th Jul 2017, 17:38

With the money they made from the listing of the Eddie Stobart business, Stobart Group could easily afford to buy Flybe but does anyone actually see it happening?

airbourne

7th Jul 2017, 22:54

I always thought the buy out of STX by WX was a bit pie in the sky. Bit like when FR wanted to buy EI. Sure offer the share price, gain an airline and its huge cash pile.

Cityjet is a ball of ****e held together with duct tape. Who else in Europe is flying those gas guzzling RJ's and as for the Russian birds, well that was a disaster!

mik3bravo

8th Jul 2017, 08:22

I detect hostility towards Cityjet. Describe why you feel the new airframes are a disaster? I'm intrigued.

airbourne

8th Jul 2017, 16:18

Detect? Was I not hostile enough? I really need to up my game so!:mad:

Its not just the new airframes that I consider to be a disaster it the whole thing.

How this airline has stayed in business is anyone's guess.

Who really wants to pay for a TR on (a) an aircraft that nobody is really flying anymore, are falling apart and (b) an unproven aircraft that nobody in Western Europe is using.

Maybe you can describe why you think the Sukhoi's are great? I am also intrigued.

Harry Wayfarers

8th Jul 2017, 16:31

Perhaps the two of you may take it to the Cityjet thread!

southside bobby

8th Jul 2017, 16:36

Aw shucks.....go easy on him,just another SEN fan with those rose tints on....

airbourne

8th Jul 2017, 17:20

Perhaps the two of you may take it to the Cityjet thread!

Sorry to have offended your deep sense of commitment to staying on topic!

Did you sense the hostility there Mik3? :{

mik3bravo

8th Jul 2017, 18:45

Hmmm. Falling apart, eh? Indeed. Keep taking those stress pills:ok:

sarnold

30th Aug 2017, 16:18

Hi All,

I've heard that Stobart will be operating the 195 with their own crew from Jan 2018. Can anyone confirm if their crew will operate the Flybe aircraft or are Stobart due to take delivery of their own 195's?

Thanks in advance.

Rivet Joint

21st Sep 2017, 21:06

Looks like EI-FMJ is being painted into the BE livery. This is one that is currently in the shamrock scheme. Anyone know why they are not painting one of the two white ones? One of them has been operating from SEN already so would seem to make sense. I really do not understand the logic of some airlines.

JobsaGoodun

21st Sep 2017, 21:38

Surely, whether it's logical or not depends on a number of things, not solely what the existing paint scheme is.

If the current white tails are due off lease anytime soon, or if Stobart have another intended use for them then it makes no sense to paint them.

Equally, if EI have reduced their requirement from Stobart then there are likely restrictions on Stobart operating an EI liveried aircraft on a non EI flight. There may be a grace period but I doubt it's very long. You can only imagine the effect on the EI brand in the event of an incident involving an EI liveried aircraft when it wasn't even operating an EI flight.

brian_dromey

22nd Sep 2017, 09:32

Rivet Joint

22nd Sep 2017, 12:03

JobsaGoodun

I agree there must be a reason but one of the white ones has operated out of SEN for well over a year so you would have thought it would have made sense to paint that one. I guess this means the white one will move onto the aer lingus network which again seems daft.

Expressflight

22nd Sep 2017, 12:53

Two ATRs are needed for the SEN winter programme so the Flybe liveried aircraft will join the existing white painted aircraft.

Rivet Joint

22nd Sep 2017, 18:28

Ok so there is some logic involved then. I do wonder why so many airlines persist with operating aircraft not in their livery. I know it might aid flexibility for charters but surely it's one of the best forms of advertisement.

Chidken Sangwich

22nd Sep 2017, 19:10

If the Aircraft is leased and not owned the return from lease conditions usually state that the Aircraft must be returned to lessor ALL white. So paint it into whatever livery (circa £20k for an ATR plus 3 days out of service plus a two ferries to/from paint shop) then paint it back to white at the end of lease (another £20k plus the 3 days and a couple of ferries again) and your looking at £45k plus a couple days out of action. Money that doesn't necessarily need spending in some Airlines eyes.

Rivet Joint

23rd Sep 2017, 19:55

Very true. The two White ATRs both have been with Stobart for sometime and appear to be owned/long term leased. BMI also have 4 embrears in mainly all white which have long been with them.

01475

23rd Sep 2017, 21:25

As a beancounter I of course want to agree; even if you have the aircraft for a pretty decentish length of time this can still very easily be £1 from the fare of every passenger that steps on the plane.

Why then ofc people go and change liveries on an entire fleet for no good reason other than the new marketing guy made a nice PowerPoint hell knows :-(

(Edit: I'm being flippant obviously. I know the value of branding and customer impression, and given how much the BMI passenger has paid, probably they should do it)

Skipness One Echo

19th Oct 2017, 07:56

Hi, can one of you very knowledgable people help with a question?

What was the date that the ICAO code changed from REA to STK?
Was it also the same date that Aer Arann became Stobart Air?

jethro15

19th Oct 2017, 08:25

Stobart Air
Effective 05 Jun 14. Formerly Aer Arann
ICAO code effective 03 Aug 14

BAladdy

23rd Oct 2017, 14:23

Does anyone know the registrations of the 3 BE E195’s that are to transfer to Stobart Air?

BOHEuropean

23rd Oct 2017, 15:18

G-FBEL, G-FBEM and G-FBEN which are owned by 'Propius Leasing' - the leasing arm of Stobart Group. When the press-release came out that they'd been purchased from GOAL, it said:

"The aircraft are currently on a lease agreement with European regional airline Flybe PLC, running to the second half of 2018."

All the other Flybe E195s are owned by Falko Regional Aircraft Leasing which they acquired from Avolon. No end-date to those leases were published in the press.

Expressflight

26th Oct 2017, 13:17

The Irish Independent carries a story that Stobart Air may be hived off in order that it can secure outside investment to pursue "consolidation opportunities". Presumably this means acquiring other operators that might be ripe for a take-over. This tallies with hints in recent Stobart Stock Exchange statements on similar lines.

Likely take-over candidates could be .........?

flight_mode

26th Oct 2017, 13:30

.....Flybe?

davidjohnson6

26th Oct 2017, 14:25

An airline with 17 props, operating mainly on a ACMI basis for another carrier and very little on its own commercial responsibility is unlikely to be buying other major airlines. Not only do they not have the management experience to take on another carrier but it is unlikely they will be able to raise funds on commercially useful terms from outside investors. Assuming the story in the Irish Independent is true (and I have no idea as to the veracity of the story) this is just spin for saying that Stobart Air is up for sale. It seems nobody is interested in purchasing Stobart Air through a private sale, so the airline has been told to stand on its own merits and no longer have recourse to the Stobart Group balance sheet

Expressflight

26th Oct 2017, 14:47

Tagron

26th Oct 2017, 15:17

The only ACMI work carried out by Stobart Air is the operation of two ATR72s for Flybe on the Isle of Man routes.

davidjohnson6

26th Oct 2017, 15:18

OK - I accept I could well be wrong about the commercial responsibility of the Aer Lingus routes, but would repectfully point out that Stobart is not in the same position as Loganair were regarding the relationship against the larger franchising carrier. I still just don't see Stobart Air being able to take over (and make more profitable by virtue of consolidation) anything but very minor players

flight_mode

26th Oct 2017, 16:23

I would contend that from a financial point of view they could embark on a buying spree. They could buy Flybe tomorrow without much difficultly. The recent sale and leaseback has freed up a lot of cash already, credit is cheap and easy to obtain, Stobart have a venture capital arm and lots of good quality links to the City.

Whether they have management experience is another question but, any acquisition may come with that experience already onboard.

Consolidation has been the way the industry has been moving for years. These small carriers need to consolidate to survive.

southside bobby

26th Oct 2017, 17:32

....& Flybe could sell tomorrow without much difficulty if anyone was mis-guided enough to offer..

Jamie2k9

26th Oct 2017, 18:35

I for one don't agree with that interpretation of the matter. Still time will perhaps tell what the reality is.

I also don't think it's correct to say that Stobart Air are "operating mainly on an ACMI basis for another carrier" because my understanding is that STK carry the commercial risk on the routes they operate as Aer Lingus franchisee.

Correct, EI take a fee per passenger the rest is down to Stobart who discuss possible opportunities with EI.

EI offer exclusivity on certain routes to them.

Harry Wayfarers

27th Oct 2017, 11:17

Whether they have management experience is another question

But they have Warwick Brady ..... Hang on, I'll get my coat :)

rowly6339

11th Jan 2018, 18:18

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/stobart-air-planning-to-spread-wings-over-europe-36472736.html

Who else could they strike up a franchise deal with?

mikkie4

11th Jan 2018, 21:30

Good luck to them....lets hope that southend gets something out of it

BHD2BFS

11th Jan 2018, 22:49

With flybe shares at a near record low, I think stobart could be eyeing up Flybe. They could offer shareholders an offer they can't refuse and aquire a large airline for a good price.
They are slowly buying E195 up at a far cheaper price as to what flybe originally leased them at and with an again fleet of Dash8 could slowly replace them with the ATR, it's clearly served them well and with short routes the ATR and Dash flight time comparison is only marginal... Passengers would not notice any increase in flight time.

Also if they are looking to buy up Airlines could Blue Island be an option? Small airline and by combining operational resources could make the airline a good buy? Still operate current routes but move the small head office to Southend head quarters. A good buy when even looking at freight options

DC3 Dave

12th Jan 2018, 06:12

I'm told that a Aer Lingus Regional ATR72 operated the late SEN-DUB yesterday for Flybe.

If that was at short notice Stobart would have had to pay Stobart big bucks for that.

Harry Wayfarers

12th Jan 2018, 08:17

How do Stobart pay Stobart ... By bank transfer or credit card?

Expressflight

12th Jan 2018, 08:37

fjencl

12th Jan 2018, 08:45

Do we know yet if it will be stobart air operating the Carlisle airport flights.....or will it have another airline on there behalf.

DC3 Dave

12th Jan 2018, 10:57

DC-3 Dave

I assume you meant to say it would have cost Flybe "big bucks". It certainly would have cost something but seeing as it was a Stobart Air ATR72 that was already sitting idle at SEN not a great deal.

I suppose Flybe could be a theoretical target for Stobart but I would suggest such a move would be 'courageous' in Sir Humphrey's parlance.

No, I meant Stobart! I'm interested in whether the Aer Lingus Regional franchise is managed as a separate business from the Flybe franchise, in which case the cost of the former providing an aircraft to the latter would have to be met. Or is Stobart Air simply one operation, with aircraft and crew available wherever needed subject only to logistical consideration.

Expressflight

12th Jan 2018, 11:33

If Stobart Air operate SEN-DUB themselves with their own E195s and a SEN-based Stobart Air ATR72 is substituted to operate in its place I cannot see why any cross charge would be made to anyone. I don't see where Aer Lingus Regional comes into the equation.

If Flybe still operate SEN-DUB using an E195 leased from Propius/Stobart Air, as was suggested in post #23, then maybe Flybe would carry the cost of the substituted ATR72. Perhaps someone can clarify if that is still the case. The route is stated as operated by Stobart Air in the booking process.

AirportPlanner1

12th Jan 2018, 12:18

I think someone has been looking at Flightradar and jumped to conclusions. It often shows flights operated on one aircraft to be EIR rather than BE when that is clearly not the case.

The E195 was delayed. Not significantly so - maybe an hour - but a delay nonetheless. Certainly nothing that would necessitate anything being chartered in or money changing hands. Loads did not require an E195, the ATR was sufficient and an aircraft and crew were available. A simple swap. Nothing more to see.

SWBKCB

12th Jan 2018, 14:37

Do we know yet if it will be stobart air operating the Carlisle airport flights.....or will it have another airline on there behalf.

No - by the end of the month was the suggestion

Stobart Air, which operates the Aer Lingus Regional service, is to continue expanding its fleet as it eyes more franchise flying opportunities around Europe, said newly-appointed non-executive chairman Conor McCarthy.

Hmm - regional flying in Europe doesn't seem to be a gold mine

brian_dromey

12th Jan 2018, 15:06

All the more reason why Stobart might want to expand on a “franchise” rather than “at-risk” basis. My understanding of the EI franchise is that it is a mix of both, as is the BE work. I think all the SEN stuff is at Stobart’s own risk though.

cityJet seem to have done relatively well with wet-leases for AF, KL and SK.

BAladdy

25th Jan 2018, 19:08

brian_dromey

25th Jan 2018, 20:46

Will this be all-white, or in EI colours? Im glad to see RE are turning over the -42 fleet with -600s. I assume the plan is that it will be an all -600 operation, as aircraft become available?

EI-CBK has been in service with RE for 17 years. Given all the upheaval in the aviation industry, much less regional aviation, its a remarkable feat.

I've just seen that EI-GEV is brand new! Wasn't expecting a new ATR42!

fjencl

25th Jan 2018, 21:31

It would be nice to have a brand new atr42-600 operating from CAX. We are still waiting for the press announcement to tell us who will be operating the flights and on what type of aircraft and indeed if it will be a new airline base with based flight deck and cabin crew there in CAX.

cumbrianboy

25th Jan 2018, 21:43

The new ATR42-600 is to replace the old girls on the PSO routes in Ireland.

bigjim99

26th Jan 2018, 06:57

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/63701-irelands-stobart-air-to-add-maiden-atr42-600-in-mid-1q18
Found this article online, however can only see its title and not the rest of the info. Does anyone know more?. Is the aircraft going to be replacing one of the ATR42’s already in service or could this be the aircraft that is going to used to operate from CAX?. Also are Stobart planning on adding anymore new aircraft to the fleet this year?.

I believe both 300s are being replaced with 600s now that PSOs have been confirmed until 2022. Not sure if any additional frames are arriving on top of that or what that means for CAX.

Would be nice to see some down at ORK to make journeys a tad quicker, to make thinner routes a tad more viable and to take advantage of the higher x-wind limit. Maybe then we can see some new routes such as ORK-SEN,BHD,BRU.....and dare I say it, DUB!

harriewillem

27th Jan 2018, 08:30

23JAN2018
Stobart Air (RE, Dublin Int'l) has confirmed it will shortly add a maiden ATR42-600s to its fleet. In a statement to ch-aviation, a Stobart Air spokeswoman said msn 1213, formerly OY-YCC on the Danish register for Nordic Aviation Capital, would likely arrive at some point in February. The twinprop was recently ferried to Shannon for painting and pre-delivery maintenance ahead of its formal hand over to Stobart Air as EI-GEV.

The Irish capacity provider and white-label specialist currently operates an all-Avions de Transport Régional fleet of two ATR42-300s, two ATR72-500s, and thirteen ATR72-600s. One of the ATR42-300s will be replaced by an ATR72-600 at some point, the spokeswoman added.

Of Stobart Air's fleet, the two ATR72-500s are in service for flybe. (BE, Exeter) on a wet-lease basis while the remainder operate for Aer Lingus (EI, Dublin Int'l) under the Aer Lingus Regional brand as well as under a flybe. franchise contract.

fjencl

27th Jan 2018, 09:40

So it's just another 2 weeks until we find out who will be operating what out of CAX.

rowly6339

5th Feb 2018, 17:33

For anyone who is interested,

2 X ATR42-600 Aircraft to arrive in the next few days

Stansted baggage ops to start 1st March

CAX runway to open 4th June.

The96er

5th Feb 2018, 21:58

Stansted baggage ops to start 1st March

Does this mean they're starting 3rd party handling ?

Barling Magna

5th Feb 2018, 22:30

Stobart Aviation Services is a newly formed subsidiary offering airport ground handling services, which has indeed just secured its first external contract with EasyJet at Stansted airport, no doubt on Southside Bobby's recommendation.

There is apparently "a plan to increase the business organically or through acquisition to support a range of airports and airlines in the UK."

DC3 Dave

6th Feb 2018, 06:50

Who would have believed that in the early days of the 21st century, that minds immeasurably superior to ours would be making their plans to invade the great centres of aviation in our fair island.

SS insisted, "The chances of Stobart taking over my airport are a million to one" he said.

But still they come.

Flightrider

6th Feb 2018, 07:34

DC3 Dave, I haven't a clue what you are talking about. Any chance of translating your cryptic musings into something which makes sense to the average reader, please?

Red Four

6th Feb 2018, 07:36

Think 'War of the Worlds'...but probably nothing to do with Stobart Air the airline.

southside bobby

6th Feb 2018, 07:52

I believe the Martians in this analogy were vanquished ultimately by their own inadequacy surely..

Still happy days...onward & upward.

DC3 Dave

6th Feb 2018, 08:46

DC3 Dave, I haven't a clue what you are talking about. Any chance of translating your cryptic musings into something which makes sense to the average reader, please?

I do apologise. I've been on the red weed again.

I'm just wondering whether Stobart are seeking a small slice from many aviation pies, or do they have the ambition to be a big player in one or more aviation fields in 5/10 years time.

tophat27dt

6th Feb 2018, 09:54

None of us would know the answer to that, only Stobart.
I am sure the managing director at SEN has lots of experienced input into all this.

southside bobby

6th Feb 2018, 10:54

I think it is recognised there is little money making potential in pax ground handling.

It is probably a case of Stobart using leverage & contacts from the SEN operation with
very probably a "plan" to utilize staff between the two Essex bases & try to effect a business margin that way.

Most operators would seek handling charge reductions with a change of contract I would guess.

Outsourcing in this sector only works for the airline accountants primacy.
It has been described as a race to the bottom & provides nothing for the airlines image when problems arrive as they surely do.

Jet2 have the right methodology & are bringing it in house.

Plane.Silly

6th Feb 2018, 12:57

southside bobby

6th Feb 2018, 13:28

Plane.Silly...

Can you please clarify your comment(s) as I am struggling with your meaning/point.

Ta.

Expressflight

6th Feb 2018, 14:17

Is STN a seven aircraft base for easyJet this year? Presumably that would generate around 40 daily movements for the new Stobart Aviation unit to handle.

STN406

6th Feb 2018, 17:43

Believe Stansted should have around 7-8 aircraft based. But would also have aircraft flying into Stansted from domestic routes.
So if I understand Menzies have lost the Easyjet contract ?

southside bobby

7th Feb 2018, 04:53

Most overlook the fact that EZY domestics BFS/GLA/EDI mainly serviced by away based a/c.

Expressflight

7th Feb 2018, 07:43

Thanks for the corrections so maybe as many as 60 daily movements for the Stobart Aviation unit to handle. I would guess that gives a reasonable starting point for their STN operation which they obviously hope to develop further.

fjencl

7th Feb 2018, 16:03

Wonder if its this week or next week they announce who will be operating the Carlisle Airport flights to Southend, Belfast & Dublin.

SARF

7th Feb 2018, 19:41

Maybe ezy are so pleased with the Southend operation. And so bored of stansteds tedious delays in getting bags off a plane, that they have both decided to take a mutual punt

daz211

7th Feb 2018, 21:36

Don’t be so childish
This delay in baggage you talk about at Stansted can happen at SEN I can vouch for that trust me and it’s more frustrating for the passengers when you can see your aircraft and your bags sitting in the rain.

I used SEN once and once only
Flew SEN ACE SEN on our return we landed the same time as if I recall a AGP flight it was November and tipping down we waited an hour for our bags that we were told would arrive and the first reclaim and the AGP passengers stood at the other and the only info above the reclaim was train info not flight info anyway to get to the point waited in a cramped area with inadequate toilets for for 2 Easyjet Aircraft worth of passengers total wait for bags one hour for bags to arrive on wrong belts totally drenched and forgot to mention no staff other than customs officers who didn’t want to help even if they could.

Anyway it’s not like me to write posts like this but just to let you know it happens at all airports but you would think it wouldn’t at SEN when only 2 flights land and you have to get the bags a few meters.

Give me Stansted any day of the week.

Plane.Silly

8th Feb 2018, 09:21

It would make sense for Jet2, especially at the bases they've introduced it, wiht at least 7 based units. Stobart wouldn't have as many based units, so surely they'd just be sat around for 1/2 the day, making it very unefficient

Can you please clarify your comment(s) as I am struggling with your meaning/point.

My suggestion was that bringing these services in house isn't the cheapest thing to do. Jet2 seem to have hit a sweet spot with their largest bases where they operate this. The more planes you have based at a particular base, the more cost effective it's percieved to be. The smallest base that Jet2 have this at is EMA, which has 7 based units, (3 x 733, 4 x 738)

I was then drawing comparison to the notion that Stobart air would have less aircraft operating to/from SEN for it to be cost effectve.
Less a/c = less efficient.
On the basis of using only based a/c, when all planes have left, the ground crew have a bit of a wait on their hands, probably to take breaks, fill paperwork etc... before the planes all come back. If somewhere down the line they include inbound a/c as well, i suppose it would make more sense, so i could still be corrected

Hopefully that makes a bit more sense :)

Expressflight

8th Feb 2018, 09:32

I was then drawing comparison to the notion that Stobart air would have less aircraft operating to/from SEN for it to be cost effectve.
Less a/c = less efficient.
Hopefully that makes a bit more sense :)

Seeing as we're talking about Stobart Aviation handling easyJet at STN, not Stobart Air at SEN, it might make more sense if you had written:

"I was then drawing comparison to the notion that easyJet would have fewer aircraft operating to/from STN for it to be cost effective for Stobart Aviation."

Plane.Silly

8th Feb 2018, 09:34

and there we go, i've been corrected. Standing down...

Harry Wayfarers

8th Feb 2018, 12:51

Plane.Silly

Can you say again all after "My suggestion was" because it's lost on me!

Plane.Silly

8th Feb 2018, 14:24

Thought i was fairly clear on that. Apparently not.

To avoid too much repetition, If you bring ground handling in-house, it makes sense to have a decent amount of flights to operate on. In Jet2's case for LBA/MAN/STN for example, where they have umpteen based a/c, it's a no brainer, they can make that work. Then i noted that Jet2 also make it work at EMA, which is a smaller base, so even with just 7 based a/c, self handling can work.

With me so far?

Then i drew comparison to Stobarts planned operation from SEN which is only scheduled to have 4 based a/c, since 4<7, i drew the conclusion that Stobart might not be able to make it work.

If they started outsourcing their ground team to other operators (maybe to Easyjet as Expressflight suggested) as well as their own, then it might make more financial sense to do it.

Hopefully that explains it, don't think i have it in me to go another round...

Expressflight

8th Feb 2018, 14:44

Plane.Silly

You seem to be under a misapprehension.

This handling discussion started because Stobart Aviation Services (a newly launched venture seeking third party handling contracts at UK airports) announced that they have been awarded the easyJet ground handling contract at STN commencing next month, yet you seem to be talking about handling at SEN.

Perhaps you don't know that Stobart have carried out all ground operations, handling and facilities management at SEN for about eight years. In a nutshell they keep everything in-house. They currently provide handling for the 7 SEN-based aircraft, which will become 9 this summer, plus all visiting aircraft. Many of their handling staff carry out other tasks apart from ground handling. Quite why you are referring to "Stobart's planned operation from SEN ........" I have no idea as it is very well established.

Barling Magna

8th Feb 2018, 15:31

I think he's just got the wrong end of the stick. Easily done. Happens to me all the time.

It'll be interesting to see whether Stobart Aviation Services (SAS?) can expand beyond EZY at STN.

GAZMO

8th Feb 2018, 15:38

Plane Silly
I believe the smallest Jet2 base is BFS with four planes and outsourced to swissport

southside bobby

8th Feb 2018, 15:43

Credit the MAN thread...

It appears the incumbent agent for EZY at both LGW & LTN has lost the contract...

New handling agent not mentioned...

SARF

8th Feb 2018, 21:02

Luggage reclaim at stansted takes ages when it’s working well .

Plane.Silly

9th Feb 2018, 06:41

Ok Guys, lets wrap this one up and move on

@Expressflight. After digesting all recent posts, i believe you are correct. I apologise for the slight deviation
@Barlinga Magna. Spot on, thanks for the back up
@GAZMO. I was referring to the smallest base that has in-house handling, hence why i didn't mention BFS

chuboy

11th Feb 2018, 22:33

I see ATR 42-600 EI-GEV entered service yesterday DUB-NQY.

fjencl

22nd Feb 2018, 14:39

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-stobart-flybe-deal/stobart-in-talks-about-potential-deal-with-airline-flybe-source-idUSKCN1G61W1

fjencl

22nd Feb 2018, 14:42

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-stobart-flybe-deal/stobart-in-talks-about-potential-deal-with-airline-flybe-source-idUSKCN1G61W1

Barling Magna

22nd Feb 2018, 14:45

See the SEN thread. Assuming that this is a takeover of flyBE by Stobart Air, and that it happens, it explains why Stobart have been so certain that pax numbers at SEN will double this year.

SWBKCB

22nd Feb 2018, 15:14

How would this work? Surely to move that amount of capacity to SEN would mean disruption to the rest of the network? Maybe over time they could re-focus, but this year?

southside bobby

22nd Feb 2018, 15:22

All seems a strange way to effect a buyout or takeover..

What happened to "dawn raids"?...the costing has already soared by 30% in the last couple of hours..

Stobart have had under takeover rules to confirm previous press speculation that there has been an interest & have until 5pm to proceed or withdraw..

The deadline can be extended with agreement from the takeover panel & the two parties.

Expressflight

22nd Feb 2018, 15:25

Stobart have until 5pm on 22nd March (not 22nd February) to proceed with the acquisition or to withdraw.

southside bobby

22nd Feb 2018, 15:38

"Flybe confirms that it has not received any approach from the Stobart Group regarding a possible offer by Stobart Group for Flybe.
Flybe shareholders are strongly advised to take no action at this stage.
There can be no certainty that any firm offer will be made nor as to the terms on which any firm offer might be made".

The above is a statement enforced upon Flybe under the take over rules & regulations.

southside bobby

22nd Feb 2018, 15:46

Apologies...Yes of course 22 MARCH!....(age thing)

ExXB

22nd Feb 2018, 16:23

Please don’t post a link. Some explanation would be appreciated. Thank you m

Barling Magna

22nd Feb 2018, 16:24

And this is Stobart's Stock Exchange declaration:

"As previously disclosed in October 2017, we have been reviewing alternative structures for our airline and leasing business that can play an important part in the consolidation of the regional airline sector.

A number of potential structures have been considered including taking a non-controlling interest in a vehicle to acquire 100% of Flybe likely to be in cash. It is not possible to say, at this stage, whether a transaction will take place, whether a firm proposal will be made or, if it is, the form a transaction to combine the airlines might take.

A further announcement will be made in due course."

Richard Taylor

22nd Feb 2018, 16:31

Stobart considering a bid for Flybe.

Alteagod

22nd Feb 2018, 17:37

So its Stobe or will it be Flybart?

PDXCWL45

22nd Feb 2018, 18:37

I'd imagine they'd keep the Flybe brand as its much more well known as an airline. People see Stobart and think big green lorries.

SWBKCB

22nd Feb 2018, 18:41

Get rid of that horrible purple colour and I'll chuck in a few quid meself! :ok:

01475

22nd Feb 2018, 18:45

Non-controlling interest?

I wonder who the partner would be? Not CityJet, I assume :-D

toledoashley

22nd Feb 2018, 18:51

Not sure if the flyBe brand is now tainted or not... might be better with a fresh slate with something new.

01475

22nd Feb 2018, 18:54

Why would the brand be tainted?

It's well advertised and I'd say a very valuable brand.

SWBKCB

22nd Feb 2018, 19:35

Well, the Stobart brand wouldn't be bad place to start :ok:

Mooncrest

23rd Feb 2018, 15:30

Stobart, like British Regional/BACX years ago, don't have an airline identity of their own. Their aircraft operate in either FlyBe or Aer Lingus colours or all white - the latter is no identity at all, save for a small Stobart logo. If the company was to acquire FlyBe, I would wager that would be the public face of Stobart's airline activities.

SWBKCB

23rd Feb 2018, 15:43

The Stobart brand in general (not the airline) has far greater recognition amongst the general public than flyBe so why not use it?

Such a rebranding should attract huge publicity.

Mooncrest

23rd Feb 2018, 16:16

True, but most folk would associate Stobart with lorries whereas FlyBe is an established airline name with a history reaching at least as far back as Intra Airways.

caaardiff

23rd Feb 2018, 16:32

Eddie Stobart would probably have more recognition than just Stobart alone, and even then it would be associated to Lorries, not flights.
Flybe is a much more recognised Airline brand.

rowly6339

23rd Feb 2018, 17:45

Eddie Stobart is a separate company altogether from Stobart Group so Eddie Stobart couldn't be used.

I would think that Stobart Group would keep the Flybe name but all flights "operated by Stobart Air"

mik3bravo

23rd Feb 2018, 23:21

One of the main priorities to address in order to secure a reasonable chance of success outcome of a Flybe play, is STOB (or the SPV) ability to issue debt aka get a bond put away to refinance in Sterling the USD loans Flybe got hanging round their necks. Without that priority tucked away early on, and new lease agreement's out of Dublin, then it's a uphill battle and a drag on growth potential.

HZ123

24th Feb 2018, 07:05

Mik3; I think it is worst than that, it takes someone special (CEO / Branding / Takeover) to resurrect a failing outfit like BE. STOB have displayed a mixed corporate business plan and at times the lack of airline / aviation experience is clear to all, should they take BE on I cannot see them having those skilll's to manage a root and branch operation at BE. It has been a failing airline for many years now! Furthermore, cutting a/c and staff would have to be the first actions and that is not conducive to improvement or expansion.

Harry Wayfarers

24th Feb 2018, 08:31

But Stobart have Warwick Brady in situ, ever such a nice chap!

Seriously though, is flybe's true name still actually 'British European'? ... They have their own CEO and management in place, the failing CEO got sent walkabout something like a couple of years ago, I guess the new CEO has at least had some success at turning things around, as I have been reading I understand that Stobart would be buying the company and not neccessarily firing the directors and management to replace them with a bunch of newbies.

tophat27dt

24th Feb 2018, 08:52

Expressflight

24th Feb 2018, 11:14

I cannot imagine why they would want to ditch the Flybe brand and I shouldn't think they have any intention of doing so. Let's move on.

tophat27dt

24th Feb 2018, 11:52

Stobarts I am sure do realise Flybe is a good brand name and will keep it. Early days.

Andy_S

24th Feb 2018, 14:56

You do all realise there hasn't actually been an offer for FlyBe yet?

tophat27dt

24th Feb 2018, 15:06

These boys all love to dream and speculate!

Barling Magna

24th Feb 2018, 15:14

You do all realise there hasn't actually been an offer for FlyBe yet?

...... and there may well not be if Stobart do their due diligence. Plenty of other struggling European airlines out there ripe for a takeover..... or are there?

brian_dromey

24th Feb 2018, 20:01

I don’t see why Stobart would rename the airline, other than corporate vanity.

As I’ve said upthread, I’m not sure there’s much to gain by merging RE and BE, indeed any merged entity would be insane to relinquish an EU or U.K. AOC right now.

Both RE and BE could grow their white-label flying without the other, other than 5 aircraft at SEN the airlines have very little in common and few effeciences to gain.

Harry Wayfarers

24th Feb 2018, 20:06

Wow, now it's being suggested to merge two airlines, where has that been reported in the press, can't one parent company operate two or more brands as IAG do?

brian_dromey

24th Feb 2018, 21:36

The suggestion on the thread was that BE could be rebranded as Stobart or Eddie Stobart. If one company owns two airlines, it would seem sensible for them to work closely together, I don’t think that would require a rebranding of either airline or a formal merger, necessarily.
The question I haven’t seen answered is where effecienes and benefits of scale would come from, where the return on investment would come from? RE has a fresh fleet of ATRs, but BE needs to make decisions about its future fleet - rolling over the Q400s may make sense, of transitioning to the ATR. Arguably, more urgent is the question of the jets. What, if anything, should they be replaced with? E-2s? C-Series? Does flying subsidised jets from DSA and CWL even make sense, long term?
The more interesting question is weither flyBe could serve the 100-150 seat market easyJet and Ryanair are increasingly abandoning with their new aircraft seating ~200 passengers, or more on the A321s. Could flyBe make money with depreciated A319s or new C-Series? Or is that complexity unecessary and a fleet of ATR/Q400s on domestic U.K. and near EU routes the best way forward?

shamrock7seal

25th Feb 2018, 00:19

Isn’t this a potential brexit move?

RE is Irish registered

BE is British registered

Harry Wayfarers

25th Feb 2018, 02:40

I can envisage a maintenance facility at CAX!

PDXCWL45

25th Feb 2018, 07:04

The suggestion on the thread was that BE could be rebranded as Stobart or Eddie Stobart.What, if anything, should they be replaced with? E-2s? C-Series? Does flying subsidised jets from DSA and CWL even make sense, long term?

I'd be shocked if they got rid of the Flybe brand it's just to well known.
As for CWL and DSA surely subsidised flying is a better way to guarentee the jets made money why else are they moving E175s to these bases? The E175 and E190 e2 would be a good replacement and Stobart already have the E jet in their fleet.

onion

25th Feb 2018, 09:14

Who is to say that they are going to purchase Flybe out right?
What if Stobart and Flybe set up an overall holding company and then Flybe and Stobart Air operate as two separate companies under the holding company.
That way the identities stay but the fleets and back offices can be streamlined and harmonised.

davidjohnson6

25th Feb 2018, 09:59

I'd be inclined to wait until Stobart give a formal statement of their intentions to all investors (not a 'we are exploring options' bit of waffle) that meets Takeover Panel requirements before trying to think what they will do afterwards

SWBKCB

25th Feb 2018, 10:20

And for the rest of us, it's still a rumour network... :ok:

Harry Wayfarers

25th Feb 2018, 10:24

The whole world is a rumour network, I'd rather go down the pub and jest with my buddies than waste my life gossiping about Airfix kits!

tophat27dt

25th Feb 2018, 11:21

Airfix kits! Wow. DC3s or ATR72s?

Harry Wayfarers

25th Feb 2018, 11:30

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/hZ0AAOSwVctY5Gy9/s-l500.jpg

Martin the Martian

25th Feb 2018, 16:19

That's not an Airfix kit.

And what's wrong with gossiping about them?

benchmark

26th Feb 2018, 08:18

The actual wording from the Stobart Group is...“taking a non-controlling interest in a vehicle to acquire 100% of Flybe”

So, a consortium in which Stobart would have a non-controlling interest, is considering acquiring 100% of Flybe. Therefore the consortium would very much have control.

Who/what would make up the rest of the consortium?

lfc84

26th Feb 2018, 08:35

private equity ?

willy wombat

26th Feb 2018, 09:14

There have been a number of comments on this and the Flybe thread about replacing Q400s with ATRs but, except on very short sectors, you cannot just drop an ATR into a Q400 schedule as the ATR is significantly slower.

flight_mode

26th Feb 2018, 14:33

I don’t know where to post, SEN, FlyBe or Stobart Air! :ugh:

As much as they’d love to buy Flybe outright they haven’t made an offer because they cannot afford to. They would need to raise cash and suspend or reduce the divided, thus relegating shares into a risk category that would force a few institutional investors to sell.

They’re looking for joint venture partners to bring the cash. Perhaps a Chinese company like HNA Group would love such a business? Or perhaps Easyjet, they’ve been looking longingly at the thinner, shorter routes for years, but their A319 are too big. (A long shot because they wouldn’t need anything Stobart could bring to the table). I guess one thing can be assumed, it won't be AF/KLM, IAG, Lufthansa Group or the unmentionable.

They would be a junior partner in such an arrangement so there’s no need to get carried away with sending MX to CAX and pulling out of LCY. It won’t happen.

An airport, an airline and an aircraft leasing company could all tie together into a wonderful package.

SWBKCB

26th Feb 2018, 14:51

Makes you wonder why nobody else has done it?

I can envisage a maintenance facility at CAX!

And before it becomes established as an urban myth, I's sure H W was joking. Surprised the News and Star hasn't picked it up.

LGS6753

26th Feb 2018, 15:51

As much as they’d love to buy Flybe outright they haven’t made an offer because they cannot afford to

...but as a quoted company they could make an all-share offer.

flight_mode

26th Feb 2018, 16:01

Thats true LGS although that also has significant impact on existing shareholders. When saying they can't afford to buy FlyBe, I wasn't thinking exclusively about the purchase price, I was thinking about the massive cashflow impact owning an airline would have.

Makes you wonder why nobody else has done it?
Massive risk exposure?

rowly6339

26th Feb 2018, 18:03

flight_mode

Not sure why you said Stobart couldn't afford Flybe, they have plenty of money in the bank especially after the recent sale of property owned by them and the £100+m They received from the partial sale of the Eddie Stobart business.

kasuga

26th Feb 2018, 20:25

HAN will certai my not be investing if anything they are selling assets

mik3bravo

26th Feb 2018, 22:09

I can see debt for equity swap coming onto the table. Flybe got expensive US$ held debt. Off load it to equity player(s) then use the SPV to reissue the debt in £, the SPV underwrites the risk, legally separate entity to STOB and others who will have controlling rights.

Interesting times. If the consortium craft a business restructuring plan that will yield returns then attracting insituational and PE will happen. Markets got excess capital availability right now.

canberra97

26th Feb 2018, 23:11

HAN will certai my not be investing if anything they are selling assets

It's the HNA Group your referring to.

shamrock7seal

27th Feb 2018, 01:05

Mik3bravo u seem to be clued up on this - can I ask why would stobart want to announce intent to markets before actually following through? It has sent the share price up which surely means they will have to pay more than they would have done if they’d kept quiet?

Doesn’t Brexit mean Stobart Air need a UK AOC which, please correct me if I’m wrong, they dont currently have

SWBKCB

27th Feb 2018, 05:01

It might do, but nobody knows yet - no agreement has been reached.

inOban

27th Feb 2018, 07:31

If two companies'enter into talks which may or may not lead to an offer' they are required to make that public. Otherwise there is a certainty of insider trading.

Expressflight

27th Feb 2018, 08:28

That only applies to publicly listed companies of course and both the entities involved are just that so inOban is correct.

Flocks

27th Feb 2018, 09:23

Yes, but the ATR has a lower leasing and maintenance cost, which is why Flybe are looking into them. The Q400 is only flown about 20 knots faster than an ATR, which is about 5/10 minutes difference, nothing major.

? I don't know the Atr, but I believe they fly 270kt max, so must be operated from 270/250kt

We operate the dash 8 with a range from 360 to 310kt depending of the fuel price, wind and if we are late. A normal cruise speed is 330kt.

More than 20kt extra .

tophat27dt

27th Feb 2018, 10:46

Luxair operate their Dash 8s at 290kts...sometimes only at 240kts...but nobody told me why!

Harry Wayfarers

27th Feb 2018, 11:01

Fuel consumption?

tophat27dt

27th Feb 2018, 11:13

Yes..I am convinced..but as a passenger I like to get home from LCY in 63 minutes, not 80!

Harry Wayfarers

27th Feb 2018, 11:20

17 minutes? ... The Pygmalion Irish Pub in the Grund shall still be there as well as a pork shoulder at the Mousel Cantine :)

DC3 Dave

27th Feb 2018, 12:12

The perfect solution: SEN-LUX. A win-win for all!

Reversethrustset

27th Feb 2018, 13:06

Flocks, you need to get your speeds right, we don't talk TAS or GS. The previous poster was talking about IAS. The ATR is considerably slower than the Q400 in the climb and in the cruise it's slower as well. Flybe fly the Q400 around at a cost index speed, this typically could be between 200kts and 230kts IAS above FL200 which probably isn't that far away from the ATR. It's max speeds are irrelevant because it's not that often you get to fly around at 280kts anyway.

Flocks

27th Feb 2018, 16:13

Euh ... Sorry to say but I have no confusion with TAS or IAS, as Flybe Dash 8 captain, it would be real bad from me to not know.

To compare 2 planes, we can only speak about TAS, the IAS is not really relevant unless same altitude. Just to say, 270kt is the TAS cruise speed for the ATR to compare with 340kt of the dash 8 Q400.

Now say the previous post was about 20kt difference in IAS, if we don't know the altitude does mean nothing. I can be 270kt IAS at 15000ft, I m still slower that 240kt IAS at 25000ft ... So let s speak about TAS.
Other things from my friends operated the atr72. They usually fly much lower than us with the dash 8. Simple reason. Atr is 23tonnes for I think 2600horse power per engine (value from memories, not accurate) and dash 8 is 29 tonnes for 5000horse power per engine ...

Now saying that, I believe the atr is a really good machine, for lot of different point and I believe it could be okay a very small fleet for some shirt flight. Now to do Southampton in a dash 8, not the best but can be done, in a atr ... Oula. Sonkot always good for the Flybe network.

cumbrianboy

27th Feb 2018, 16:28

Flocks is 100% correct here. When comparing speed the ONLY comparable metric is TAS and any aircraft manufacturer will always quote the TAS as it is the true air speed.

As for the ATR vs Q400. From a passenger perspective the ATR is the winner hands down, the cabin is very comfortable, as quiet as a jet (the advantage of less powerful engines and narrow prop blades) and for short sectors upto c.300nm the ATR wins hands down.

Once you go over 300nm then the story starts to change, the Q400 has speed on it's side, and although operators such as FlyBe do, I am told, fly at lower speeds to reduce fuel consumption, the reality is that if you need a Q400 to operate from SOU-PMI it can. The ATR would e a painfully slow experience.

Flocks figures are pretty accurate for the ATR, max weight just shy of 23 tonnes (although the aircraft can be certified for 23 tonnes but most are 22.8) and the RTO power of the engines is 2750shp.

I would be interested to know, and I don't know, what the fuel burns are like for the Q400 when operating at max speed, but also what the fuel burn is when you start to slow down, as it would be interesting to compare like with like on the ATR to see how the economics stack up.

The ATR, as everyone knows, is VERY fuel efficient, but the price you pay for that is, as discussed, performance.

OpsSix

27th Feb 2018, 18:34

Speed aside, the Q400 is such an unreliable aircraft.

I don't know how ATR are in comparison, but the Q400 goes through components like there's no tomorrow and the spares supply from Bombardier is pretty awful.

lfc84

27th Feb 2018, 21:17

From a passenger perspective - and my own view - they're both very uncomfortable and the toilets are dreadfully small

Harry Wayfarers

27th Feb 2018, 23:31

The ATR has a good short field performance, the Q400 can't do my local airport, one operator have re-acquired some Q300's to get in and out and only then on short sectors ... But nothing can get in and out at the moment, a BAe146 went off the end yesterday and I think they're still trying to find out how to pull it out :)

Reversethrustset

28th Feb 2018, 06:46

Flocks

I think you're miss reading what I wrote. Now without starting a "who's got the biggest penis in the world" competition, I too have about 6,000hrs on the Q400 and have been a captain in it for a considerable time. What I was saying was, the previous poster sounded like he was talking IAS, so that was his reference.

Andy_S

28th Feb 2018, 07:33

...but as a quoted company they could make an all-share offer.

This is a possibility. My back-of-a-fag packet calculations suggest Stobart Group would need to expand their issued shares by 4.5 - 5.5 % to fund a complete takeover, which isn't overly dilutive.

Not sure why you said Stobart couldn't afford Flybe, they have plenty of money in the bank especially after the recent sale of property owned by them and the £100+m They received from the partial sale of the Eddie Stobart business.

Yes, but some of that has been used to pay down debt, and some of it has been ring-fenced to support dividend payments for the next few years.

southside bobby

22nd Mar 2018, 07:45

No deal....

ETOPS

22nd Mar 2018, 09:42

Here....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/03/22/stobart-scraps-bid-regional-airline-flybe/

Barling Magna

22nd Mar 2018, 09:58

DC3 Dave

22nd Mar 2018, 11:08

How does this failure leave the Flybe/Stobart Franchise? Current agreements won't be open ended, and any growth with new routes would need Flybe's agreement.

Expressflight

22nd Mar 2018, 11:23

Business is business. I doubt it will make much difference.

Andy_S

22nd Mar 2018, 11:25

Couldn't agree terms. No surprise really, flyBE were overpricing themselves I suspect.

Or the Flybe board felt that Stobarts offer undervalued the company.

tophat27dt

22nd Mar 2018, 11:27

Or the Flybe board felt that Stobarts offer undervalued the company.

It won't make any difference.

harriewillem

22nd Mar 2018, 15:38

Cityjet —> Stobart No deal
Stobart —> Flybe No deal
Stobart —> Cityjet will be next in line...

asdf1234

22nd Mar 2018, 15:43

Couldn't agree terms. No surprise really, flyBE were overpricing themselves I suspect. Their shares have fallen by a quarter as a result, Stobart's down 3%.

I guess Stobart will look elsewhere for airline growth now.

Flybe share price went up 36% on the news of Stobart interest in the takeover 1 month ago. They went down 21% today when the takeover interest was ruled out. So Flybe shareholders happy.

Stobart shares are down 14% since they declared their interest in a takeover 1 month ago. In fact Stobart shares down 22% in the last 6 months.

It's only a guess but with Stobart net worth down and I expect this led to them not being able to make the bid they wanted to.

They should concentrate now on working out why shareholders are selling up and leaving them and try and create some value in the company. Turning the airport into a profit generating centre will help.

flight_mode

22nd Mar 2018, 16:20

They should concentrate now on working out why shareholders are selling up and leaving them and try and create some value in the company. Turning the airport into a profit generating centre will help. Stobart shares had enjoyed quite a run up until summer 2017. A stable dividend, and continuous flow of good news and jam tomorrow promises for the aviation sector all fuelled the mighty increase but, the emperor has no clothes and the market is beginning to realise, take profits and walk away.

shamrock7seal

23rd Mar 2018, 01:44

Harriewillem

Perhaps. But surely they need a British AOC first before they do anything else. Or they will be grounded in March 2019.

mikkie4

23rd Mar 2018, 02:26

was it just a one of offer or can stobarts up the price? and try again

asdf1234

23rd Mar 2018, 06:27

Under London Stock Exchange rules there are only very limited circumstances under which Stobart could renew their bid - so no, they can't go straight back in with a new offer.

bigjim99

23rd Mar 2018, 07:43

Anyone fancy an outside bet they could make a move for what is left of Eastern?

Nakata77

23rd Mar 2018, 09:59

if they did it would be suicide... why buy something like that when it's probably better to do it yourself.

SWBKCB

23rd Mar 2018, 10:40

if they did it would be suicide... why buy something like that when it's probably better to do it yourself.

To get a UK AOC?

Atlantic Explorer

23rd Mar 2018, 10:45

No chance, Bristow need that AOC to operate their fixed wing Scatsta pax shuttle flights which is a big part of their UK operation.

SWBKCB

26th Mar 2018, 17:10

Isn't it an Irish AOC? Might need a UK one post-Brexit.

DC3 Dave

9th Jun 2018, 07:24

Standard E-edition (http://standardonline.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/iphone/homepage.aspx#_articlebf2896e0-2fd7-4a9a-8d3b-3b86ff09c29d/waarticlebf2896e0-2fd7-4a9a-8d3b-3b86ff09c29d/bf2896e0-2fd7-4a9a-8d3b-3b86ff09c29d/2/true)

Barling Magna

9th Jun 2018, 08:14

Playground stuff at board level, but I wonder what the differences over Stobart's strategy are....?

Andy_S

9th Jun 2018, 14:10

Playground stuff at board level, but I wonder what the differences over Stobart's strategy are....?

Apparently it's to do with the future of Stobart Air. Stobart Group, of course, made a somewhat speculative (and failed) tilt at FlyBe a few months ago. This seems to have aggravated Tinkler, who believed that the agreed strategy was for the group to divest itself of Stobart Air while retaining a minority stake in the airline.

It may be playground stuff, but it's a huge distraction for Stobart Group and is keeping the company in the public eye for all the wrong reasons.

AirportPlanner1

14th Jun 2018, 17:25

Does anyone know when the third E195 is arriving? The Bulgaria Air operating out of SEN seems to have been replaced by an in-house ATR which seems to be consistently delayed on a daily basis I assume because it is slower than what was scheduled.

I ask ask because it seems to be the evening GLA-SEN that bares the brunt of the delays building up through the day and I’m on it next week.

stewyb

14th Jun 2018, 18:04

According to Jethro, one in July, Sept and Nov!

SWBKCB

3rd Jul 2018, 09:44

May be a bit off topic, but couldn't resist this one....

Boyzone's Ronan Keating wades into Stobart Group row (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Boyzones-Ronan-Keating-wades-into-Stobart-Group-row-350d736a-e83a-4ff6-824d-06e5cbd6aa38-ds)

DC3 Dave

3rd Jul 2018, 10:59

Andy_S

3rd Jul 2018, 12:48

Is he saying, "You say it best - when you say nothing at all."

'Flying Without Wings' might be more appropriate.......

Plane.Silly

3rd Jul 2018, 13:56

"No Matter what" also fits

Wasn't Flying without Wings a Westlife song?

Andy_S

3rd Jul 2018, 15:00

Wasn't Flying without Wings a Westlife song?

Ermmm, actually I believe you are correct...... I'm afraid Boy Bands were never my strong point.

LGS6753

10th Jul 2018, 06:10

More shenanigans...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/07/09/stobart-boardroom-saga-think-isnt-now/?WT.mc_id=e_DM798595&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_FAM_New_AEM_Recipient&utm_source=email&utm_medium=Edi_FAM_New_AEM_Recipient_2018_07_10&utm_campaign=DM798595

mik3bravo

8th Aug 2018, 09:35

How many E195s have Stob got available to service that DUB route? Was it 2 or 3 airframes of that type? Out of that number, what's the current number of this type currently in service and available on that route (if they've still got aircraft off line for maintenance then realistically when will Stob have the full compliment of E195s fully serviceable and online and sufficient crews rostered to effectively run a punctual and reliable DUB service from SEN)?

Expressflight

8th Aug 2018, 10:13

It isn't just the DUB route that needs the E195s of course, but to answer your question there are three SEN-based 195s; G-FBEF, G-FBEH (both dry(?) leased from Flybe) and EI-GGC which is the first of the three that Stobart have bought and all are operational. The other two are due later this year and will replace the leased aircraft.

mik3bravo

8th Aug 2018, 16:54

mik3bravo

27th Aug 2018, 08:30

E195 - Tech latest updates?
If possible, can anybody provide the latest up to date status on the G-FBEF, G-FBEH and EI-GGC maintenance and tech issues.

Are all three aircraft currently available and operating services according to the FLYBE operated by Stobart Air published schedules, or do any of these three specific aircraft currently have tech / maintenance on going problems preventing their normal operational availability at this time? If yes, then specifically which reg?

SWBKCB

27th Aug 2018, 09:24

All three operational this morning and running to time.

mik3bravo

27th Aug 2018, 10:01

Thank you, CB.

mik3bravo

27th Aug 2018, 12:24

Interestingly, BE6251 this Sat 06:45 shows as operated by FlyBE and not Stobart Air.

shamrock7seal

28th Aug 2018, 13:23

City jet just secured an Aer Lingus branding agreement to operate into LCY with two aircraft. Beginning of the end of Stobart Air? Obviously this is totally unrelated to the regional contract but a bold and cheeky move to get a foot in the door by City jet.... interesting times.

mik3bravo

28th Aug 2018, 16:53

BA318

28th Aug 2018, 17:04

I read that too on the Cityjet and the Aer Lingus and the City Airport thread. Good news if you ask me. Stobart Air receive 10/10 scorecard for ability to cock-up services. Those E195's are 10 or 11 years old and clearly have reliability problems.

Cityjet's RJ's have an average age of 19 years old and Cityjet also have issues occasionally with cancellations.

virginblue

28th Aug 2018, 18:01

I read that too on the Cityjet and the Aer Lingus and the City Airport thread. Good news if you ask me. Stobart Air receive 10/10 scorecard for ability to cock-up services. Those E195's are 10 or 11 years old and clearly have reliability problems.

Well, Cityjet has 14 Avro RJ85 to choose from for, if I am not mistaken, a route network that requires 4 or 5 at most (are the Avros used on any other routes than DUB-CDG/LCY and LCY-FLR). If you have just three E95 that are all needed to run your daily schedulesm back-up options are slightly more bleak....

mik3bravo

28th Aug 2018, 18:53

Cityjet's RJ's have an average age of 19 years old and Cityjet aluso have issues occasionally with cancellations.

I fly WX about 4 to 6 times per month, and not once over the last year have I experienced any tech issues, not once, nada.

I have flown BEE about 12 times since they announced using those E195s and I can honestly say I've experienced 5 tech issues, 3 resulted in fairly significant delays, the other two they pulled both flights after stringing all the pax along for 3 to 4 hour tech delays. Me and pax left high and dry to try get back home to Essex. Ended up buying Are Lingus ticket to Gatwick and the other was Cityjet into City.

Those Cityjet avro's are dated but plenty of them and they do an excellent job ensuring tech events are limited or rare.

Whereas at Stobart Air, it's been a complete and utter disaster running those three E195s.

EI-BUD

28th Aug 2018, 19:22

Cityjet have more crewing issues than anything else, plenty of Avro's sitting around. They've had to contract Jota across the summer extensively to cover the staffing void. In my experience Cityjet provide an excellent and reliable service.

brian_dromey

28th Aug 2018, 19:23

Whereas at Stobart Air, it's been a complete and utter disaster running those three E195s.

From April you won't have to choose Stobart/FlyBe again. Ryanair do, despite some recent publicity, operate a very reliable and on-time operation. In fairness Stobart do run a pretty reliable operation for Aer Lingus with the ATR's. I think it's mainly the SEN E195s that have been a bother. There have been teething trouble with the E195 operation, but this was never the plan. Originally WX were to operate a number of their SSJ-100s from SEN. The marriage was called off at the last minute the deal fell apart. I hope once RE take over the operation of all 3 aircraft and possibly source a spare things will improve.

Tagron

28th Aug 2018, 22:18

Stobart must be thanking their lucky stars that the Cityjet deal fell through. The E195 serviceability may have given Stobart grief, but that was as nothing to the problems Cityjet faced with the SSJ100 on the Brussels Airlines contract. Plus two years on Cityjet have effectively pulled out of own b rand schedule flying.. What will Cityjet do with those SSJs when they come off the Brussels contract at the end of March ?

Eiwings1

28th Aug 2018, 22:50

ive heard a lot of stobart first officers make the leap to aer lingus, is this true and does it happen often?

southside bobby

29th Aug 2018, 05:55

As posted on the Southend thread & from the Irish Independent...

Stobart Air pulling 2 EMB 190`s from SEN...services to Malpensa,Venice,Budapest & Prague to cease.

3rd `190 to continue SEN/DUB.

SWBKCB

29th Aug 2018, 06:30

Link to the Irish Independent story

Stobart to pull two Flybe jets (https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/stobart-to-pull-two-flybe-jets-37262067.html)

mik3bravo

29th Aug 2018, 06:31

As posted on the Southend thread & from the Irish Independent...

Stobart Air pulling 2 EMB 190`s from SEN...services to Malpensa,Venice,Budapest & Prague to cease.

3rd `190 to continue SEN/DUB.
Ah yes, but which of the three will remain to service the SEN - DUB goldmine route? One of the two G reg'd or the one EI reg'd aircraft. They need to select the aircraft with the best maintenance performance. Judging Stobart Air's fleet management performance to date, I remain doubtful they have the potential to deliver a reliable, punctual and consistent service on that route. I could be wrong, but experience to date speaks volumes.

PDXCWL45

29th Aug 2018, 06:51

Ah yes, but which of the three will remain to service the SEN - DUB goldmine route? One of the two G reg'd or the one EI reg'd aircraft. They need to select the aircraft with the best maintenance performance. Judging Stobart Air's fleet management performance to date, I remain doubtful they have the potential to deliver a reliable, punctual and consistent service on that route. I could be wrong, but experience to date speaks volumes.
I'd say the Irish registered one and then lease the UK ones out. I wonder if Flybe would be interested in them or maybe Loganair?

Expressflight

29th Aug 2018, 07:38

There won't be any UK registered 195s with Stobart by that time. G-FBEF & 'H will return to Flybe once EI-GGA & 'B have been delivered over the next couple of months.

EI-BUD

29th Aug 2018, 07:41

I am assuming SEN-DUB will continue until the end of the Winter season only. Surely continuing alongside Ryanair would amount to commercial suicide?

DC3 Dave

29th Aug 2018, 07:47

So just to to clear this up. Stobart will remain the ''proud' owners / custodians of three 195's, but only one of these is currently in operation with them?

Expressflight

29th Aug 2018, 08:18

So just to to clear this up. Stobart will remain the ''proud' owners / custodians of three 195's, but only one of these is currently in operation with them?
The other two are not in service as they are still undergoing pre-delivery maintenance with Flybe so, yes, only one of the purchased three is in service with them currently. When delivered the other two will replace those currently leased from Flybe.

Cazza_fly

29th Aug 2018, 08:27

So just to to clear this up. Stobart will remain the ''proud' owners / custodians of three 195's, but only one of these is currently in operation with them?

That's correct. The other two, still ex-Flybe, are due shortly and they then too will become EI- registered. The current two G- registered (EF/EH) are currently leased from Flybe and may return to them. I say may, as obviously Flybe are also disposing of this fleet as soon as the leases are over and are all expected to have left Flybe by January 2020 - (Thankfully!)

With no extension on the Flybe / Stobart Air franchise partnership looking likely, it's going to be interesting to see how that fleet gets used. Short term ACMI and Ad-Hoc charter work may well better suit these E195s better than a "heavy" scheduled timetable.

AirportPlanner1

29th Aug 2018, 08:32

I would suggest the DUB route will cease and the single retained E195 would then be enough to cover the remaining routes to Cologne, Lyon and Rennes. Zadar would still be possible as well.

Its the future of the ATRs I’m interested in.

Expressflight

29th Aug 2018, 08:40

Its the future of the ATRs I’m interested in.

I would suggest there are three possibilities:

1) The Flybe/Stobart Air franchise is extended and the SEN ATR routes will continue to be operated as now.
2) The SEN ATR routes could operate under a different franchise banner. Possibly Aer Lingus Regional (maybe not very likely) or another UK carrier.
3) The SEN ATR routes may not operate at all after next Spring.

brian_dromey

29th Aug 2018, 09:16

I would suggest there are three possibilities:

1) The Flybe/Stobart Air franchise is extended and the SEN ATR routes will continue to be operated as now.
2) The SEN ATR routes could operate under a different franchise banner. Possibly Aer Lingus Regional (maybe not very likely) or another UK carrier.
3) The SEN ATR routes may not operate at all after next Spring.

I think flyBe is the only game in town from a franchise point of view, but given the cancellation of the IOM contract and the changes at SEN I don't think the relationship is that great. I don't think Aer Lingus Regional makes much sense on rotes from SEN to Manchester, Glasgow and even less to France. I can't see it being used on routes to Europe from SEN.
Im surprised that Stobart have decided to continue on the DUB-SEN route with the E195. Its going to be tough to compete with Ryanair on that one. It seems like Stobart find themselves in a similar position to CityJet - decent routes but the wrong brand/infrastructure to operate them with.

Expressflight

29th Aug 2018, 10:04

I think the statement that one 195 will be retained at SEN to operate the DUB service relates only until the end of March 2019 when Ryanair commence operations at SEN. Part of the deal may be that Stobart will continue SEN-DUB until Ryanair take over, simply to maintain continuity of the route. I cannot see Stobart continuing to operate SEN-DUB after that time.

SWBKCB

29th Aug 2018, 10:19

SEN-DUB is one route that might make sense as an Aer Lingus Regional route - plenty of UK regional routes to Dublin where RYR and EI/EIR compete

lfc84

29th Aug 2018, 10:30

BA Citiflyer have announced 4 E190's joining them. Are some coming from Stobart ?

Jersey32D

29th Aug 2018, 10:36

BA Citiflyer have announced 4 E190's joining them. Are some coming from Stobart ?

Unlikely. The the Stobart frames are 195's. Only the 190 can operate into LCY.

DC3 Dave

29th Aug 2018, 10:48

SEN-DUB is one route that might make sense as an Aer Lingus Regional route - plenty of UK regional routes to Dublin where RYR and EI/EIR compete

Remember FR are only offering an early morning and late afternoon weekday flight to DUB to start. So there's scope for Stobart to keep going on the route if only a midmorning service. I don't believe FR will try to wipe out Stobart on price - why should they? I'm sure Stobart will politely stand aside if FR want to increase rotations.

toledoashley

29th Aug 2018, 13:20

Would there be any value in Stobart working with Loganair? They have lofty ambitions in Scotland with talk of expansion and European routes. It was Loganair who were due to operate the Carlisle service, and that Saab 2000 is coming to the end of its life... Maybe some ATR's with a bit of help from Stobart might fill that gap? (Loganair also wouldn't be a terrible brand to operate from Southend anyway, especially to Scotland).

koninckske

29th Aug 2018, 14:52

_aax1

29th Aug 2018, 15:01

koninckske

29th Aug 2018, 15:10

I think you're correct with 3 of the E195's going to DUB. Call me crazy but I have a feeling that Stobart will sell tickets through Ryanair for the ATR routes, similar to Air Malta and Air Europa.
Forgot about this Ryanair option. Doesn't sound that crazy to me. This might already be included in the deal they made with them. 5 year Flybe deal ending in March 19 and 5 year Ryanair deal starting in April 19.

01475

29th Aug 2018, 15:45

Cazza_fly

29th Aug 2018, 15:49

With Brexit in mind I expect to see those 3 E195 in Aer Lingus colours and all being based in Dublin with one being used for SEN. They can operate some smaller European routes with it.

And for the ATRs they need a British airline that uses them as a wetlease from SEN. No more Flybe it seems, so why not as Easyjet... not likely to happen, but would be a better channel to sell tickets on European routes than Flybe which is hardly known on the continent.

Really not sure what you mean by "with Brexit in mind" and what that has to do with anything, in particularly with having the E195s in Aer Lingus livery based at DUB ?

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but as for the ATRs we are only talking 4 ATR72 aircraft that are currently operating under the Flybe franchise partnership - and that's including 2 at the Isle of Man base ? If anything, these ATRs would most likely be best integrated into the Aer Lingus Regional network if there was any potential for expansion there. Otherwise with no extension of the Flybe franchise in its current form looking likely and i'm presuming there being no chance of Stobart Air operating scheduled services under there own brand(?), the majority of the SEN fleet, including the E-jets will most likely become available for Ad-Hoc / Short-term ACMI business model.

Personally i could have still seen potential under the Flybe franchise partnership at SEN and even expanding opportunities elsewhere. Although with the increased competition at SEN with Ryanair arriving plus the partnership with Loganair at CAX, it's been looking all the more likely that Stobart's intentions weren't in it for the long term for some time. I'm sure all will become clearer soon anyway.

tophat27dt

29th Aug 2018, 16:27

So how could all this in the end affect the expected increase in passenger figures if Stobart Air themselves do stop regular scheduled flights from SEN.?

Expressflight

29th Aug 2018, 16:39

I'm sure all will become clearer soon anyway.
I'm sure that it will but in the meantime we are all simply too much in the dark to make detailed speculation worthwhile. I include myself in that and offer only the three generalised possibilities that I posted earlier today. Beyond those a fertile imagination can come up with an infinite number of scenarios, none of which really seem any more likely than any other. I think I'll just wait to see what facts emerge before posting further.

AirportPlanner1

29th Aug 2018, 16:52

mik3bravo

29th Aug 2018, 16:57

So the inference being Loganair will stiff you?

AirportPlanner1

29th Aug 2018, 18:04

So the inference being Loganair will stiff you?

Well that’s one way of looking at it I guess, it’s more that it’s the sort of route Loganair operate, at the sort of fares they charge, and clearly there is some relationship with Stobart. Testing the outcome of higher fares to demonstrate viability, or just coincidence? One thing is for sure, it can’t be to deter bookings if they’re actually operating the flights.

shamrock7seal

30th Aug 2018, 04:16

Although with the increased competition at SEN with Ryanair arriving plus the partnership with Loganair at CAX, it's been looking all the more likely that Stobart's intentions weren't in it for the long term for some time. I'm sure all will become clearer soon anyway.

Yes Stobart ‘Air’ are not in it for the long-term and even cannibalised some EI services from U.K.-Ireland to support their efforts in SEN.

also...

Isn’t Flybe worried about the continuing public perception of unreliability at SEN? I’m sure the traveling public don’t even know they are not actually traveling with Flybe.

AirportPlanner1

30th Aug 2018, 06:26

Isn’t Flybe worried about the continuing public perception of unreliability at SEN? I’m sure the traveling public don’t even know they are not actually traveling with Flybe.

Maybe so but the problem aircraft are theirs!

AirportPlanner1

30th Aug 2018, 06:33

I know it's almost ridiculous to suggest that any airline could be a reputational risk to Ryanair, but are Stobart not really bad at the one thing Ryanair is not bad at? People have been coming back to the office after holidays and comparing notes, and the "Stobart from SEN are unreliable" penny appears to have dropped even among infrequent users of the airport!

A chap above mentioned the Stobart ATRs on the EIR are reliable, same at SEN. Even where there have been problems it’s often because they’ve been subbing for sick E195s.

virginblue

30th Aug 2018, 08:03

Isn’t Flybe worried about the continuing public perception of unreliability at SEN? I’m sure the traveling public don’t even know they are not actually traveling with Flybe.

Or happy about the fact that Stobart does not dilute Flybe's "Flymaybe" brand thanks to a stellar performance....

virginblue

30th Aug 2018, 09:46

Just noted that Stobart is now operating a single ATR42-600 as the two knackered ATR42-320 are gone. What is the reason behind this oddball subtype? Is there any airport in the network that cannot accommodate an ATR72-600 with 48 pax but an ATR42-600 with the same load? Donegal with its 1.500m runway should be able to take an ATR72 and Sligo and Galway are long gone. And conventional wisdom suggests that the operating costs of an ATR72 are not much higher than those of an ATR42 so that it would make sense to sacrifice operational flexibility.

chuboy

30th Aug 2018, 10:52

limited_sight

30th Aug 2018, 13:53

Loganair keeps entering the discussion. One odd thing that happened with the SEN-MAN route a couple of weeks ago, apart from it going off sale beyond early Jan (which seems a strange time to pull such a route), is that the minimum price suddenly jumped to £90. It’s also not been included in the recent discount promotion.

Its operating now for between £90 and about £160 for the basic non-flexible handluggage only fare. So it’s not just a case of hiking prices to deter forward bookings. What’s interesting is that when Carlisle was on sale, £90 is the minimum fare Loganair were charging.

I did a quick check today on the flybe website. It seems that the majority of SEN routes is no longer available for booking after early January and under a sort of fixed high price regime until then. What is still bookable until late March are at least DUB, Antwerp, Goningen and Rennes and these routes have lower and varying prices.

Expressflight

30th Aug 2018, 14:38

What is actually bookable during March is ANR, CFR, CGN, DUB, GRQ, LYS and RNS all at normally to be expected fare levels.

virginblue

30th Aug 2018, 14:41

I did a quick check today on the flybe website. It seems that the majority of SEN routes is no longer available for booking after early January and under a sort of fixed high price regime until then. What is still bookable until late March are at least DUB, Antwerp, Goningen and Rennes and these routes have lower and varying prices.

Caen, Lyon and Cologne are also available at reasonable fares. Six of those destinations (DUB, ANR, GRQ, RNS, CGN, CFR) are "thin" and "short" routes that are ideally suited to the ATR72 and which should not attract LCC competition with a larger jet aircraft - Dublin being the exception as far as morning/evening flights are concerned. Lyon is an oddball as it requires a faster aircraft, but probably not the capacity the E95 has. Gone without a replacement are apparently MAN, GLA and VIE, whereas PRG and BUD will be served by easyJet and Milan by Ryanair (I would not be surprised if part of a deal regarding a new base is an agreement that the airport-owned airline must not serve routes in competition with based airlines if these do not agree to a complementary service). What I find surprising is that MAN appears to face the axe as it allowed for helpful domestic connections.

All in all, this is far from Stobart axing its SEN base. I also sense more opportunities, e.g. on the ANR route should VLM go under at LCY, or to BRN that is now unserved from London as a result of Skywork's insolvency. However, the ATR network from SEN will always be rather small as there are not a lot of destinations within the type's ideal range that have potential and are not served from STN and/or LCY (stuff like MST, FMO has already been tried unsuccessfully).

DC3 Dave

30th Aug 2018, 16:28

I love your positivity virginblue, but a short while back Stobart were giving it large about delivering domestic flights for both business and leisure users. Ok, it may be the right decision to axe MAN and GLA, but they said they were in it for the long term. Apparently not. And if SEN - MAN or GLA can't be made to work, exactly what chance does SEN - CAX have next year?

AirportPlanner1

30th Aug 2018, 17:02

Agreed, MAN was on an upward trajectory as well. I think the CAX route has some potential, but MAN is an infinitely more useful destination overall. I’ve used it not just for Manchester itself but for other destinations across the north, some served directly from the airport’s railway station.

virginblue

30th Aug 2018, 21:11

Expressflight

31st Aug 2018, 07:36

Of the SEN destinations that were released in the original Flybe winter timetable as operating next March all except MAN and GLA will operate at the original frequencies and schedules. Both MAN and GLA will cease to operate after 6th January 2019 and, as others have said, this seems an odd time to withdraw them rather than run them through to the end of March. The MAN route has certainly produced much more traffic that I had expected it to and I'm surprised they are not persevering with it for longer. I know yield was probably poor but they now seem to be increasing fares in an effort to improving it and yet they cancel the route before the effect of those fare changes can become known.

limited_sight

31st Aug 2018, 09:02

According to website ch-aviation.com, Stobart " has since confirmed to ch-aviation that the two aircraft will indeed be coming off service for flybe. and will be redeployed elsewhere. A formal announcement is expected to be made in the coming weeks."

I am also a bit puzzled. It may only be an indication that there will be more changes to be announced.

Cazza_fly

31st Aug 2018, 09:45

According to website ch-aviation.com, Stobart " has since confirmed to ch-aviation that the two aircraft will indeed be coming off service for flybe. and will be redeployed elsewhere. A formal announcement is expected to be made in the coming weeks."

Yes. The two based on the Isle of Man which has already been confirmed. Flybe will re-establish a crew base of their own in the IOM, basing two Q400's from the end of March 2019.

SWBKCB

31st Aug 2018, 10:00

"has since confirmed to ch-aviation that the two aircraft will indeed be coming off service for flybe. and will be redeployed elsewhere. A formal announcement is expected to be made in the coming weeks."

Does this refer to the IOM ATR's or the SEN EMB-195's as per the Irish Independent article?

Cyrano

31st Aug 2018, 11:47

Does this refer to the IOM ATR's or the SEN EMB-195's as per the Irish Independent article?

The ch-aviation piece says:
Stobart Air (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/REB) (RE, Dublin Int'l (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/2201)) will withdraw two of three EMB-195 (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/aircraft/data/E95)s that it operates for flybe. (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/BE) (BE, Exeter (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/1871)) under an existing franchise agreement, the Irish Independent has said.

[...]

Stobart Air has since confirmed to ch-aviation that the two aircraft will indeed be coming off service for flybe. and will be redeployed elsewhere.

Clearly it is referring to the E195s. But the ch-aviation story is essentially based on the Irish Independent article (https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/stobart-to-pull-two-flybe-jets-37262067.html).

3legs

31st Aug 2018, 22:14

The two ATR72-500s currently based on the IOM are going back to the leasing company at the end of March 2019 when the contract with Flybe ends.

mik3bravo

31st Aug 2018, 22:25

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1057x1538/smartselect_20180831_235433_flightradar24_30183fd234568c1f0e dd1a178c67f18e7f322a43.jpg
FlightRadar24 log

Good old Stobart, consistent as ever.

I see tonight BE6258 was due to arrive from DUB to SEN at 22:00 but it's enroute and not due to arrive until 23:32.

Quite unbelievable how they persistently can't run on time schedules. I've never seen a carrier to habitually cock it up so often.

What the hell was the reason this time for a 1 hr 30 min late arrival at SEN.

Let's see can this aircraft push back on time for tomorrow's rotation back to DUB.