Stobart Air-2

[mik3bravo]

Here we go again.

Pushed back on time. Value opening to ignition start faulting. Pulled back onto stand reconnected to ground aux power.

Looks like these E195s have seen their days.

[EI-BUD]

Bssed on everthing I'm reading re schedules, the Embraers, and the route withdrawals, my assessment is Stobart will go ACMI for another airline with the existing Flybe-Stobart aircraft. They've got FR to assist easyJet in driving the business at Southend.

Given the level of consolidation in the market and challenging environment around cost (fuel as main item), the case for a big tie up of regionals is greater than ever. Will Flybe get into the Cityjet/Nostrum deal? Otherwise, they'll likely face a big competitive challenge in maintaining the EI contract in a free years when that expires. Equally, is the Flybe takeover question?

Then consider the remaining regionals... the case for many of them standing alone is challenging without specific niche business.

[tophat27dt]

Here we go again.

Pushed back on time. Value opening to ignition start faulting. Pulled back onto stand reconnected to ground aux power.

Looks like these E195s have seen their days.
My goodness. You do hate this operation. Go for a fresh air morning stroll then come back and enjoy some porridge with blueberries.

[mik3bravo]

My goodness. You do hate this operation. Go for a fresh air morning stroll then come back and enjoy some porridge with blueberries.

Correct. They are pathetic.

[tophat27dt]

Correct. They are pathetic.
I, too, posted about the delays but I don't believe anybody in Stobart or FlyBe reads this site, so I felt my frustrations should be directed elsewhere. Six months from now, things will have changed. We don't know the full details yet, but it will be different. Hopefully SEN can then recapture it's reputation as a great little alternative London airport to fly from.

[compton3bravo]

Pray where are they going to get ACMI work for E195s (size) and with the 'reputation' they seem to getting!

[PDXCWL45]

Pray where are they going to get ACMI work for E195s (size) and with the 'reputation' they seem to getting!
Doesn't have to be ACMI could just dry lease them.

[Expressflight]

I see tonight BE6258 was due to arrive from DUB to SEN at 22:00 but it's enroute and not due to arrive until 23:32.
What the hell was the reason this time for a 1 hr 30 min late arrival at SEN.

Quite easy to check the reason actually if you look at FR24. The aircraft spent 140 minutes on the ground at SEN during a turnround during the day, thus the delay to the last DUB of the day. Presumably a tech problem or could be crewing of course, it being difficult to find out which.

[Stevek]

Rated and Non Rated EJet Captain-Dublin base | Stobart Air (http://www.stobartair.com/jobs/rated-and-non-rated-ejet-captain-dublin-base/)

[mik3bravo]

Quite easy to check the reason actually if you look at FR24. The aircraft spent 140 minutes on the ground at SEN during a turnround during the day, thus the delay to the last DUB of the day. Presumably a tech problem or could be crewing of course, it being difficult to find out which.
Yes, you can see they had some type of issue earlier yesterday afternoon at SEN, who knows what the cause may have been but based on their history on these aircraft, there's a high probability it was another tech issue yet again.

[mikkie4]

could Stobart take over the LCY ANTWEP service using VLM planes out of SEN?

[tophat27dt]

could Stobart take over the LCY ANTWEP service using VLM planes out of SEN?
They could......

[Planespeaking]

They could......
But why would they? Wouldn't that mean adding another type..an F50.. to their AOC? Or have I missed something?

[tophat27dt]

But why would they? Wouldn't that mean adding another type..an F50.. to their AOC? Or have I missed something?
........but they won't. Whilst the old FK50s seem more reliable than some E195s, they are still old.

[3legs]

They could always utilise the ATRs they are capable of LCY steep approaches ...

[mik3bravo]

E195s G-FBEF, EH performed ok yesterday. Golf Charlie on the other hand had gremlins. Interested to see today's tech scorecard. Would be nice to see just one day where all three aircraft get through the days routes without a tech issue at all. Let's see how today unfolds.

As a side note, it must be completely frustrating as the P1/2 having to put up with the high frequency of tech issues on these aircraft. There's only so much cabin announced explanations you can prrovide to your pax in the rear and no doubt a few of them may be regulars on some of those routes. Interested to understand the load detetioration rates on routes where these three particular aircraft are being used. Surely there has got to be a harmful financial impact to Stobart and Flybe, if nothing else, both brands are being damaged.

I was at c2c station last week and overheard a small group of woman talking about Flybe services from SEN. In a nutshell, the general comments were along the lines of "yes, we've heard they are not reliable, been delays, so would use Easyjet or Ryanair instead". Whilst it's only one overheard conversation, I can imagine people know the Stobart / Flybe flights are famously jinxed with unusually high levels of aircraft technical faults causing delays and last minute cancelled flights.

Real shame they're associated with that bad rep now. Ultimately, it results in lost business to other airports as SEN work to expand. Yet the SEN management seem complacent enough to just muddle on through a year of this crazy brand damaging situation. Seems all very odd to me, a very Eurpean attitude of relaxed attitude - we're better than this!

[SWBKCB]

I can imagine people know the Stobart / Flybe flights are famously jinxed with unusually high levels of aircraft technical faults causing delays and last minute cancelled flights.

Real shame they're associated with that bad rep now. Ultimately, it results in lost business to other airports as SEN work to expand.

This is a common theme on these threads - think Jet2's 'old' 737's, TCX's leased Airbusses, the Primera 757, RYR Stansted meltdowns. Any evidence that these bouts of technical difficulties do actually have any long term effect?

[mik3bravo]

This is a common theme on these threads - think Jet2's 'old' 737's, TCX's leased Airbusses, the Primera 757, RYR Stansted meltdowns. Any evidence that these bouts of technical difficulties do actually have any long term effect?
i wouldn't say it's a perception they are having an impact, I'd say they are actually having a tangible impact. Talking from our experience, it's convenient for my business to shuttle our guys in and out of flights from SEN. However, we've dropped SEN and have our guys use City or Gatwick instead. As a business we've stopped accepting any travel requests where our staff want to fly Flybe as an example. We simply refuse to buy their services now on any route at all, that's how fed up we've become with them. We definitely don't let our staff use Stansted for reasons you've alluded too cause they've been caught up in that crap before.
We spend quite a lot on staff flight needs each month. We use BA, Cityjet, Easyjet, Swiss and Aer Lingus to help us get our staff to where we got business and meetings. We've experienced terrible reliability from the Stobart / Flybe tie-up using those E195s and we've missed meetings cause of their issues. So yes, to answer your question, it translates to brand damage. Flybe won't get a single red cent from our place on any flights on their network that's for sure, same goes to Stobart, such has been their poor performance. Plenty of good service providers out there, well capable of understanding what a reliable and trusting service actually means. Enough said, we all know how utterly sh!t that JV tie up has become. Sadly, it's got to be indirectly impacting the SEN / Stobart brand visibility in some shape, form or fashion.

[tophat27dt]

EF flew to Cologne on time today, but then took off one hour late on the return leg .Needed kick starting?

[irishlad06]

EF flew to Cologne on time today, but then took off one hour late on the return leg .Needed kick starting?

this doesn’t mean it was tech.

Could be any number of things that have delayed it. The biggest and most common reason being ATC slots.

[mik3bravo]

EI-GGC APU value issues yesterday, main ignition sequence could not be performed.

Kick start you say, wonder was it a similar tech vault to Golf Charlie yesterday.

[tophat27dt]

this doesn’t mean it was tech.

Could be any number of things that have delayed it. The biggest and most common reason being ATC slots.
I am aware of that, but when I left work three hours ago there were no ATC flow control delays through Brussels or London TMAs.

[mik3bravo]

Ladies & Gentlemen, seems FlyBE / Stobart going to hit all the numbers this year, as in the number of times those E195s have gone tech.

Echo Foxtrot was due from SEN to DUB however, unsurprisingly it's busted, knackered, again. So the DUB to SEN was due to depart at 20:40, it's delayed until 21:55 departure. Now, of course that assumes the piece of junk makes it out of DUB. FlyBE / Stobart have form cancelling this specific graveyard DUB to SEN Sunday night flight as the crew kick back in a local hotel whilst pax try to organise rebooking on any other airlines into London for tomorrow morning's first flights out in order to make work commitments.

But hey, that's all part of the course if you fly FlyBE/ Stobart - 'we'll get you from A to B at some point if our planes don't breakdown.

Looking forward to their AGM's, there'll be twist at the next ones!

[GiveMeABreak]

You was too quick to put the boot in again. Aircraft arrived back at SEN just over an hour late. It's done better than the EZY BCN. Suggest you get a life!

[mik3bravo]

Seems some folk here are uber sensitive snowflakes when it comes to pointing out bad services. Play the ball, not the man.

Late, is late.

[compton3bravo]

I say steady on chaps.

[Expressflight]

Seems some folk here are uber sensitive snowflakes when it comes to pointing out bad services. Play the ball, not the man.
Late, is late.
With respect your obsession is starting to show and it seems a little odd that you call someone "uber sensitive" when you highlight every delay in such a sensational manner. The fact is that G-FBEF was late leaving CGN on its return to SEN on the first rotation of the day for reasons that are unknown to me and I suspect to you also.. This resulted in knock-on delays for the rest of the day's flying which is no surprise. The upshot was that the last sector of the day, DUB to SEN, arrived just under a hour late. Yes, "Late is late" but this was nothing sensational.

I've been delayed and annoyed by Flybe delays at SEN this year so I contacted the appropriate Ops Director about it and pulled no punches with my views on the subject. The reply I received must remain confidential I feel. Perhaps you might find it more satisfying to do the same yourself. The delays on the E195 routes have been totally unacceptable this summer and the service has been far from what the fare paying passenger is entitled to expect from any airline.

[compton3bravo]

Well said this Expressflight. Mik could please use the Queen's English not some German word for 'over'. Some might be led to believe it is a new taxi service!

[Scottie Dog]

Apparently the SEN-MAN service will only last until the end of the first week of the New Year. A shame to see it go, but at least they have tried (or been trying).

[DC3 Dave]

Apparently the SEN-MAN service will only last until the end of the first week of the New Year. A shame to see it go, but at least they have tried (or been trying).

Something's going on. You launch a 3 X daily service to attract business users knowing full well it will take a significant amount of time to make a success of the route. You have demonstrated your stickability with RNS and GRQ now well established. Then you pack it in just as there are signs that maybe you were right and SEN - MAN is a viable route.

So what is going on? Does ending the Flybe franchise next year mean that Stobart are free to use their aircraft to target routes they have prevented from until now? Destinations they believe have more potential than Manchester, perhaps EDI and BHD?

​​​​​​Or have Sobart decided they have enough confidence in the future of SEN that they no longer need to support the airport's growth with their own aircraft, and will return to serving a small number of routes they have confidence in.

[SWBKCB]

Has it been confirmed that the Flybe franchise is ending?

[DC3 Dave]

Has it been confirmed that the Flybe franchise is ending?

Mmm!
​​​I may have jumped the gun. But if their agreement with Flybe is to be extended I cannot see why the axe has fallen across so many routes.

[PDXCWL45]

Has it been confirmed that the Flybe franchise is ending?
On Facebook I've seen a reply by the Flybe social media team saying that the Stobart routes are being finalised and will be onsale in a few weeks time.

[AirportPlanner1]

On Facebook I've seen a reply by the Flybe social media team saying that the Stobart routes are being finalised and will be onsale in a few weeks time.

The Southend Airport media team said Budapest would continue alongside EZY, look what happened there.

[PDXCWL45]

The Southend Airport media team said Budapest would continue alongside EZY, look what happened there.
I'm only repeating what I saw. Personally I think Flybe should drop franchises like Stobart and Eastern and concentrate on their own network rather than being criticised for other airlines delays. Might as well get criticised for just theirs!

[stewyb]

I'm only repeating what I saw. Personally I think Flybe should drop franchises like Stobart and Eastern and concentrate on their own network rather than being criticised for other airlines delays. Might as well get criticised for just theirs!

BE's franchise agreements have largely been a disaster and agree that they really need to get their own house in order first. Long standing issues that are well documented on this forum concerning Stobart Air must have caused a huge distraction to their core business and at a time when they need as much good publicity as they can. Retrenchment is the name of the game for BE at present and to operate profitable high frequency routes whilst reducing their fleet size to fit capacity. Clearly I am an outsider looking on in but I would guess that BE/Stobart are very ready to walk away from this arrangement, shake hands and move on!

[AirportPlanner1]

BE's franchise agreements have largely been a disaster

Maybe so but the problem with Stobart has solely been BE’s own aircraft!

[STENDEC North]

Willard Out!

[mik3bravo]

Well said this Expressflight. Mik could please use the Queen's English not some German word for 'over'. Some might be led to believe it is a new taxi service!
:):ok:
Your comment gave me a chuckle. In a nutshell I take the points made, and trust me, we've had it out with Stobart Air and been less than satisfied with their attitude, and similarly that discussion shall remain confidential. Yes, I do monitor their punctuality scorecard and yes, I find it astonishing they have not grabbed these persistent tech issues by the scruff of the neck. You know, if the aircraft they operate have this very high frequency of tech issues, it does not take much to hop, skip, jump to thinking are their aircraft safe in flight? Thankfully, there have been no incidents, but their persistent aircraft issues and faults undermine confidence.
I'll park it there and close the issue.

[asdf1234]

:):ok:
Your comment gave me a chuckle. In a nutshell I take the points made, and trust me, we've had it out with Stobart Air and been less than satisfied with their attitude, and similarly that discussion shall remain confidential. Yes, I do monitor their punctuality scorecard and yes, I find it astonishing they have not grabbed these persistent tech issues by the scruff of the neck. You know, if the aircraft they operate have this very high frequency of tech issues, it does not take much to hop, skip, jump to thinking are their aircraft safe in flight? Thankfully, there have been no incidents, but their persistent aircraft issues and faults undermine confidence.
I'll park it there and close the issue.

I'm pretty sure that if you look back at one particular airframe it has a history of glitches, one leading to smoke in the cabin and an evacuation which was not entirely successful. These 195's do seem to be "Friday afternoon" models.

[Avnu]

Antwerp to Southend going daily except Saturdays as of September 25th with new flights on Tuesday and Thursday leaving Antwerp at 18h00 (14h00 on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 15h30 on Sunday).

[claron]

Delayed Flight Compensation.

Would anyone have a good telephone number to contact Stobart Air on, so as to speak to a human being?
I have tried all the number they list, but no luck. I would like to discuss a delayed flight, but several emails have yet to be even acknowledged.

Or is another sign of there poor customer service???

PM me if you do not want to go public.

[lfc84]

if it was a flybe marketed flight operated by stobart - contact flybe

[virginblue]

Delayed Flight Compensation.
Would anyone have a good telephone number to contact Stobart Air on, so as to speak to a human being?
I have tried all the number they list, but no luck. I would like to discuss a delayed flight, but several emails have yet to be even acknowledged.
Or is another sign of there poor customer service???

Welcome to the realities of delayed flight compensation. Airlines are not interested to discuss your problem, let alone pay out. Therefore, they make it as difficult and painful for you to claim compensation. I remember the case of an airline that tried to force customers to print out a 12 page form with lots of black and grey (in order to penalize the disobedient customer by ruining his printer cartridge) to make a claim until it was sued by a consumer organization.

For the benefit of your life expectancy, you should submit your case to one of the specialized flight rights service providers. They will work on a no win no fee basis, but take a percentage of the payout in exchange for protecting your sanity.

[SWBKCB]

Well, you will have been a customer of either flybe or Aer Lingus - not Stobart, who don't operate flights in their own name. So poor customer service in not pointing you in the right direction! :ok:

[claron]

Flybe have already disowned the problem. they say any claim should be directed to Stobart Air, as the operator.

[SWBKCB]

The airline you paid your money to and who issued the ticket are responsible.

[Expressflight]

Yes, without question if Flybe issued the ticket it's their responsibility for any flight delay compensation payment, regardless of the 'operated by' statement.

[claron]

Claim from the airlineContact the airline – this needs to be the airline operating the flight, even if you booked it through another airline.

Not according to citizens advise. Extract from there website.

[asdf1234]

Claim from the airlineContact the airline – this needs to be the airline operating the flight, even if you booked it through another airline.

Not according to citizens advise. Extract from there website.

The CAA is your friend here. Write to them with evidence of the emails that you sent to Stobart Air, and which they refused to answer. They will then kick them where it hurts and your claim will be resolved pdq.

[lfc84]

Here's a facual post. Not conjecture or thoughts gleaned from other websites.

I have done a successful EU261/2004 claim. I claimed on the Flybe website. They paid me.

The flight in question was operated by Stobart. Flybe send the claim to Stobart who verify it and inform Flybe of the outcome.

[Mr A Tis]

Interesting. My Flybe operated by Stobart cancelled flight claim was rejected by Flybe and told nothing to do with Flybe contact Stobart.
So far zero reply from Stobart.
I have asked the CAA to clarify who is responsible - to which there has also been no reply.

[stewyb]

I see that BE have re-introduced their timetable to the website today and all franchise flights with Stobart are no longer available from end of March. Is this just a coincidence that their 5 year agreement also ends at this point or will we see an updated timetable added in the coming weeks!?:suspect:

[Cazza_fly]

Interesting. My Flybe operated by Stobart cancelled flight claim was rejected by Flybe and told nothing to do with Flybe contact Stobart.
So far zero reply from Stobart.
I have asked the CAA to clarify who is responsible - to which there has also been no reply.

Stobart Air are responsible as these will have been the operating airline.

[virginblue]

Stobart Air are responsible as these will have been the operating airline.

In this case - yes. But "operating" depends on who is calling the shots if and how a flight is operated. The ECJ recently ruled German airline TUIfly had to pay compensation for a flight it had outsourced to Thomsonfly, .i.e. a flight operated with Thomsonfly metal. So in a wet-lease scenario the operating carrier is different from the operating carrier in a franchise scenario.

[JobsaGoodun]

Flybe (as an operator), have no responsibility for operational or commercial performance for the Flybe branded, Stobart Air operated services at SEN. The responsibility for EU261 lies with the operator of the flight, not the company under which the flight is branded.

When you purchase a flight operated as a codeshare, you may have booked through one airline but be travelling with another. It can't be the responsibility of the airline that you purchased the flight from to pay compensation if they have no influence or part to play in delivery of the service by the partner airline. That said, you'd hope that there would be strong internal comms between the two companies that would result in the customer not having to do the leg work. This would surely be a better solution.

[stewyb]

Flybe (as an operator), have no responsibility for operational or commercial performance for the Flybe branded, Stobart Air operated services at SEN. The responsibility for EU261 lies with the operator of the flight, not the company under which the flight is branded.

When you purchase a flight operated as a codeshare, you may have booked through one airline but be travelling with another. It can't be the responsibility of the airline that you purchased the flight from to pay compensation if they have no influence or part to play in delivery of the service by the partner airline. That said, you'd hope that there would be strong internal comms between the two companies that would result in the customer not having to do the leg work. This would surely be a better solution.

ln which case you have to question how damaging this franchise has been to the Flybe brand and whether the relationship has any future!

[tophat27dt]

ln which case you have to question how damaging this franchise has been to the Flybe brand and whether the relationship has any future!

Assuming that the franchise agreement is coming to an end next March, what options are there for Stobart Air to continue flights to Rennes, Caen, Groningen, etc with ATR72s. Or is there not a problem?

[Expressflight]

Assuming that the franchise agreement is coming to an end next March, what options are there for Stobart Air to continue flights to Rennes, Caen, Groningen, etc with ATR72s. Or is there not a problem?
The 5 year franchise agreement actually runs until 31 May 2019 but I haven't been able to glean any information as to whether or not it will be renewed or whether there are other options in the frame. I did speak with the MD of one of the airports on the ATR network yesterday and for what it's worth they are confident that their SEN service will operate next summer.

[DC3 Dave]

I'd be amazed if Stobart aren't close to finalising their plans for 2019. It seems almost inconceivable that they will cease to operate from SEN at the end of the winter.

[stewyb]

I'd be amazed if Stobart aren't close to finalising their plans for 2019. It seems almost inconceivable that they will cease to operate from SEN at the end of the winter.

BE/Stobart will not renew franchise and Stobart Air will run their own operation for the ATR routes + Dublin E95 is my guess

[virginblue]

Flybe (as an operator), have no responsibility for operational or commercial performance for the Flybe branded, Stobart Air operated services at SEN. The responsibility for EU261 lies with the operator of the flight, not the company under which the flight is branded. When you purchase a flight operated as a codeshare, you may have booked through one airline but be travelling with another. It can't be the responsibility of the airline that you purchased the flight from to pay compensation if they have no influence or part to play in delivery of the service by the partner airline.

Well, if you do not believe me that the state of the law is different, let#s hear from the horse's mouth, the ECJ:

CURIA - Documents (http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=203541&pageIndex=0&doclang=en&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=713827)

Particularly paras 20-21:It follows that an air carrier which, in the course of its air passenger carriage activities, decides to perform a particular flight, including fixing its itinerary, and, by so doing, offers to conclude a contract of air carriage with members of the public must be regarded as the operating air carrier. The adoption of such a decision means that that air carrier bears the responsibility for performing the flight in question, including, inter alia, any cancellation or significantly delayed time of arrival.In the present case, it is common ground that Thomson Airways merely leased the aircraft and the crew which performed the flight at issue in the main proceedings, but that the fixing of the itinerary and the performance of the flight were determined by TUIFly.

[JobsaGoodun]

I don't disagree with any of that, but the key difference is that Stobart Air are not leasing aircraft to Flybe in order for Flybe to operate services ex SEN. Stobart Air are operating these services themselves, with their own fleet but using the brand of Flybe. A franchise is not a wet-lease so in my mind there is a subtle difference compared to TUI.

[virginblue]

I don't disagree with any of that, but the key difference is that Stobart Air are not leasing aircraft to Flybe in order for Flybe to operate services ex SEN. Stobart Air are operating these services themselves, with their own fleet but using the brand of Flybe. A franchise is not a wet-lease so in my mind there is a subtle difference compared to TUI.

For the European Court of Justice, it is all about customer perspective. You look up all the details on the Flybe website, make your booking there, enter a contract with Flybe, get all the paperwork from Flybe etc. What from all of that could not create the impression that you raise a problem with Flybe, but with a company that is mentioned just once in the small print? Hence, Flybe is the port of call. It is up to Flybe to sort out the mess with Stobart Air. And I think this is justified. Nobody forces an airline to offer franchise contracts to other carriers and/or use third-party aircraft. And of course, Flybe will collect any compensation it has to pay out for Stobart flights from Stobart afterwards anyway.

To give two examples how difficult it could be for customers if it were differen, if you buy an Eurowings ticket, you can end up on an Eurowings, Germanwings, Eurowings Europe, LGW or TUIfly aircraft - why should it be up to the passenger to sort that mess out? Or if you buy an easyjet ticket for their new Berlin operation, it is a lottery which airline will actually operate the flight as easyjet has contracted aircraft from all corners of Europe to be able to start up at short notice.

[SWBKCB]

Can't see how this is different from any other commercial transaction - your contract is with flybe.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

[OpsSix]

There was a similar conversation/debate in the Flybe thread back in June.

I also contacted Flybe regarding a delay and was palmed off onto Stobart. Stobart then paid out fairly quickly but I did have to contact them again as nothing was heard initially.
The address I was given was [email protected]

[JobsaGoodun]

I'm not defending the current position and agree that it shouldn't be the responsibility of the customer to do the chasing and said as much in an earlier response, but the legislation needs to be amended to get the required outcome you're seeking.

The legislation does not take into account franchise operations (of which there were probably none when the legislation was initially devised) and I guess, until it does, there is no obligation other than one of moral conscience for airlines to act differently.

[virginblue]

I'm not defending the current position and agree that it shouldn't be the responsibility of the customer to do the chasing and said as much in an earlier response, but the legislation needs to be amended to get the required outcome you're seeking. The legislation does not take into account franchise operations (of which there were probably none when the legislation was initially devised) and I guess, until it does, there is no obligation other than one of moral conscience for airlines to act differently.

One example that has long existed is British Airways. Nowadays it is down to Sun Air, but in the past way before 2004 Loganair, BMed, GB Airways were also franchise partners.

The same problem arises, btw, with airlines that have regional subsidiaries like KLM (cityhopper), Lufthansa (Cityline), British Airways (Cityflyer) or Air France (Hop!) which are not a straightforward franchise, but simply use of the brand. In those cases, mainline could also argue that it is a different airline. To the best of my knowledge, they do not use the same defence in such cases.

[Trav a la]

For clarity (ha ha) this is what the 261 reg says-

In order to ensure the effective application of this Regulation, the obligations that it creates should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.

This was confirmed in a recent EUCJ case, Wirth v Thomson, which said-

In today’s judgment, the Court holds that an air company which decides to perform a particular flight, including fixing its itinerary, and, by so doing, offers to conclude a contract of air carriage with members of the public must be regarded as the operating air carrier. The adoption of such a decision means that that air company bears the responsibility for performing the flight, including, inter alia, any cancellation or significantly delayed time of arrival.

Accordingly, an air company, such as, in this case, Thomson Airways, which leases an aircraft, including its crew, under a wet lease to another air company, but does not bear the operational responsibility for the flight, cannot be regarded as the operating air carrier for the purposes of that regulation. It is irrelevant in that regard that the booking confirmation of the flight issued to passengers states that the flight is operated by the former air company.

https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2018-07/cp180100en.pdf

One area that does require amendment is where passengers book return flights to (say) USA via the BA website or App, get a long delay or cancellation on the return, which it turns out is on AA hardware, only to then find out they are not covered by the regs.

Sorry for thread drift but thought it may help.

[DC3 Dave]

You can see at a glance at the Flybe timetable that MAN and GLA are dead unless Stobart intend to announce that A N other, or Stobart themselves intend to sell the routes (can't really see that - can you?).

Other Stobart routes such as BUD and PRG and probably DUB will die only to be reborn with the leading LCC's from SEN. (This is something that Stobart deserve much praise for in my opinion.)

GRQ RNS CFR ANR. Seriously are these to end?

[EI-BUD]

Right since Stobart went onto a Stobart Air (albeit Aer Lingus Regional branded) route, Dublin-Cardiff, and a significant route for Stobart, I could never understand how the relationship could be in tact. Stobart Air came about as a consequence of needing to drive business into Southend. That job is now done.

If any of these routes are to continue, there has to be a Loganair/bmiregional implication, again in my opinion. Loganair-flybmi grouping is a serious regional airline, who has a relationship with Stobart (/Carlisle) and also walked away from Flybe franchise. There is a linkage and of course the ending of IOM routes on Flybe behalf is in the mix. I have a sense that there is a Loganair/flybmi implication in all of this????

[shamrock7seal]

That would be a very sensible and logical consolidation

[SWBKCB]

Loganair-flybmi grouping is a serious regional airline, who has a relationship with Stobart (/Carlisle)

Anybody know how strong this link is?

CAX flights cancelled at short notice and not yet on sale again. If you were Loganair, what would be your confidence level in Stobart Group?

[shamrock7seal]

Money talks at the end of the day. If the deal is sweet Loganair will want to take it.

[SWBKCB]

And if the deal is right for Stobart and Flybe, it'll continue.

[Expressflight]

You can see at a glance at the Flybe timetable that MAN and GLA are dead unless Stobart intend to announce that A N other, or Stobart themselves intend to sell the routes (can't really see that - can you?).
Other Stobart routes such as BUD and PRG and probably DUB will die only to be reborn with the leading LCC's from SEN. (This is something that Stobart deserve much praise for in my opinion.)
GRQ RNS CFR ANR. Seriously are these to end?
Someone who recently enquired of Flybe as to when the SEN Summer 2019 timetable would be released was told:

"Flights (from SEN for Summer 2019) will be introduced in phases and the complete schedule of services being flown from the airport will be released by the end of November 2018".

That statement was presumably drafted by Stobart Air for Flybe to pass on. Could "introduced in phases" mean that more than one branding of the routes may be the result? If the routes were all remaining as being Flybe branded why not release them all at once, but if another brand was going to be used for some of the routes then a phased release might make sense. I may be reading too much into this of course and only time will tell.

[SWBKCB]

But surely flyBe are only interested in their own flights - why would they make a statement referencing a phased release of flights, if these operations from SEN are going to be by other brands?

[Expressflight]

Because at present they sell the Stobart Air flights so any enquiries regarding next year will be directed to them and they have an obligation to reply whether or not they will be Flybe-branded next year.

[EI-BUD]

Here is my prediction;

1. Stobart will exit Flybe ties
2. 2x Embraers will enter into an ACMI with a network carrier
3. I think something will happen re serious commercial tie up with another regional carrier.

EI-BUD

[toledoashley]

Here is my prediction;

1. Stobart will exit Flybe ties
2. 2x Embraers will enter into an ACMI with a network carrier
3. I think something will happen re serious commercial tie up with another regional carrier.

EI-BUD

Have to agree with you, especially on point 1 and 2. On 3 I wouldnt be surprised if it would be Loganair and/or bmi.

[tophat27dt]

Here is my prediction;

1. Stobart will exit Flybe ties
2. 2x Embraers will enter into an ACMI with a network carrier
3. I think something will happen re serious commercial tie up with another regional carrier.

EI-BUD
I am pretty sure Loganair will be involved because they will operate the Carlisle operation

[caaardiff]

Here is my prediction;

1. Stobart will exit Flybe ties
2. 2x Embraers will enter into an ACMI with a network carrier
3. I think something will happen re serious commercial tie up with another regional carrier.

EI-BUD

Are the E195's bought outright or have they just taken over the lease that Flybe previously had? BE's issue with the E195's was the high lease cost of them. Was this a result of poor negotiations during the lease agreement stage or are E195's just generally high on leasing costs as standard? If Stobart own them outright or have agreed much lower leasing costs with the leasing company, given that many more newer similar sized aircraft are now available. Could flybe lease them once again from Stobart, but at a more economical price? I'm sure Flybe could make a couple of E195's work at certain airports.

I agree on a tie up with someone else. bmiRegional would be a good tie up. They can utilise the ATR fleet on shorter routes, reduce or phase out the E135/145 ageing fleet in favour of ATR's/Embraers. Potentially introduce E170/175 in order to upgauge some current BM routes that need more capacity. Run E195's alongside ATR's on the busier EI routes (If the Franchise continues)

[Expressflight]

Here is my prediction;
1. Stobart will exit Flybe ties
2. 2x Embraers will enter into an ACMI with a network carrier
3. I think something will happen re serious commercial tie up with another regional carrier.
EI-BUD
I would pretty much go along with your view. There is a very vague rumour which suggests that the 3rd E195 will remain at SEN and do something "interesting", whatever that may turn out to be.
The three E195s (G-FBEL, 'M & 'N) were bought outright by Propius, the Stobart owned leasing company, around July 2017 and leased to Flybe until Q3 2018 in a deal expected to net Stobart $9.2m over its term.

[PDXCWL45]

Would a tie in with Easyjet be a possibility? An Easyjet franchise maybe?

[TartinTon]

Are the E195's bought outright or have they just taken over the lease that Flybe previously had? BE's issue with the E195's was the high lease cost of them. Was this a result of poor negotiations during the lease agreement stage or are E195's just generally high on leasing costs as standard? If Stobart own them outright or have agreed much lower leasing costs with the leasing company, given that many more newer similar sized aircraft are now available. Could flybe lease them once again from Stobart, but at a more economical price? I'm sure Flybe could make a couple of E195's work at certain airports.

I agree on a tie up with someone else. bmiRegional would be a good tie up. They can utilise the ATR fleet on shorter routes, reduce or phase out the E135/145 ageing fleet in favour of ATR's/Embraers. Potentially introduce E170/175 in order to upgauge some current BM routes that need more capacity. Run E195's alongside ATR's on the busier EI routes (If the Franchise continues)

Actually it was the E175s that Flybe had the issue with regarding cost of ownership. The problem with the E195s was the cost of operation which was why they were happy to have them parked up for a while down in NQY before finding some under-written work for them.

[BOHEuropean]

Actually it was the E175s that Flybe had the issue with regarding cost of ownership. The problem with the E195s was the cost of operation which was why they were happy to have them parked up for a while down in NQY before finding some under-written work for them.

That's not true, the lease-terms ("cost of ownership") on the E195 is so high that it's not producing a profit to fly them even when full. The E175s ownership costs are fine but it does cost more to operate vs the Q400.

[brian_dromey]

I believe that a Stobart vehicle has bought the 3 E195s from their previous lessor, essentially they are stuck with them.

I have suggested elsewhere that Stobart might put their planned flights for sale via the Ryanair website but not a true franchise as with Aer Lingus or flyBe. Im sure there are a lot of reasons that Stobart may not wish to do this, but the exposure it would give STK flights would be useful and it would further Ryanair's aim of becoming the Amazon of travel.

Im not saying this is something that Stobart should do, but it would allow them to avoid having to launch an entire customer facing brand/wbesite/booking engine should the flyBe arrangement end.

[mikkie4]

that sounds like a very good idea to me

[DC3 Dave]

That's not true, the lease-terms ("cost of ownership") on the E195 is so high that it's not producing a profit to fly them even when full. The E175s ownership costs are fine but it does cost more to operate vs the Q400.

But anyone with a calculator could have worked that out before signing off the deal. So why would Stobart do such a crazy thing as enter into a deal for 3 aircraft that they cannot turn a profit on?

[virginblue]

But anyone with a calculator could have worked that out before signing off the deal. So why would Stobart do such a crazy thing as enter into a deal for 3 aircraft that they cannot turn a profit on?

Given that 150+ Embraer 195 are in service worldwide, it appears that it is possible to make a profit with the aircraft in principle. If flybe cannot, it does not necessarily mean that Stobart cannot as well (altough probably not with the type of operation they are currently used for).

[Expressflight]

But anyone with a calculator could have worked that out before signing off the deal. So why would Stobart do such a crazy thing as enter into a deal for 3 aircraft that they cannot turn a profit on?
It was the cost of leasing the aircraft from their owner that virtually precluded Flybe operating them at a profit, not it's operating cost if you are operating them as their owner as is now effectively the case.

[TartinTon]

That's not true, the lease-terms ("cost of ownership") on the E195 is so high that it's not producing a profit to fly them even when full. The E175s ownership costs are fine but it does cost more to operate vs the Q400.

Err yes it is....knowing the facts mean that it's true. The E175's were purchased when Jim French got a bit carried away and he paid through the nose for them...the 195s were purchased at reasonable rates at the time but the cost of operating them was disproportionate and hence they were parked and NOT the 175s until someone saw the "opportunity" to underwrite them.

[limited_sight]

Looks like that Stobart is pulling the plug earlier on some of the SEN routes. According to Flybe timetable Glasgow and Vienna end at the end of October.

Most other E95 routes (but DUB, CGN and LYS) are terminated in early January when the lease deal with Flybe ends. Looks like there will be only one E95 left at SEN from January plus possibly some wet leases for Lyon and Cologne. I had a quick look and Cologne seems to be operated by an ATR in February.

To me it looks that Stobart has generally revised their approach for own flying at SEN and this is not just about possibly moving their operations to another sales platform / franchise. The Flybe franchise may even continue.

[AirportPlanner1]

There have indeed been further changes. The revised timetable requires 2xE195s (although one doesn’t operate until 13:15) but just one ATR from January when MAN ends.

Both Cologne and Lyon are showing as E195, not ATR. Rennes moves to the evening, upgraded to an E195 every day.

Antwerp drops back to 4x weekly with Caen operating the other three days.

The previous press story stated two E195s to be moved, perhaps the plan is for the retained E195 to carry on CGN/LYS/RNS next summer until the end of the BE franchise as I’m certain DUB will cease.

I still find it odd that MAN continues until January, and hope that and possibly other domestic/regional routes continue after that date with different branding or operator.

[compton3bravo]

Not particularly good news I am afraid. Waiting what crap Messrs Brady and Jones will try to spin this time.

[DC3 Dave]

In fairness nearly all the routes announced late 2016 have survived and even better most will be operated by others in 2018. The "domestics" that followed have had mixed results but Dublin has attracted solid numbers despite operating problems. Could even surpass AMS at No 1. before that long. If Manchester does survive, then for me the gamble Stobart took will have been fully justified. The airport's future looks so much better than it did less than 2 years ago.

[ironspan]

From all the posts on this topic, it is not clear for me if Flybe (Stobart) will continue routes to smaller airports (e.g. Groningen, Caen, Antwerp, Rennes, ...) which are or will not be served by U2 or FR from SEN. I was told that load factors on these destinations are quite good with a reasonable yield. Obviously Flybe wants to avoid a fare war with the LCCs at SEN, hence they close some of the routes, as mentioned in posts earlier (the sale of their EMB195s may be the result of this route cancellation). But the ATR-routes are sustainable (under Flybe or Stobart or any other franchise set-up), unless it is too costly to keep operating a small ATR-fleet independently.
Anybody has more insight?

[Tagron]

Unfortunately there is too much speculation taking place on the basis of too little certain information. Flybe have already indicated that the final SEN schedule will not appear until late November but there seem to be knee-jerk responses to every change as it appears in the timetable.

For the record, Stobart are not selling E195s. They bought three (from Flybe's lessor), which they leased back to Flybe prior to taking them into their own fleet. So far only one has been delivered to Stobart and is in service. The second is at Exeter presumably awaiting delivery and now reportedly in an all white paint scheme. The third is due to be delivered in November . Stobart also have two other E195s which they have dry leased from Flybe. That lease is nominally due to expire next year but has early termination options. It has been expected those aircraft would be returned to Flybe as Stobart' s new E195s arrive.

[SWBKCB]

What influence do flyBe have over the franchise services STK operate from SEN?

[tophat27dt]

Unfortunately there is too much speculation taking place on the basis of too little certain information. Flybe have already indicated that the final SEN schedule will not appear until late November but there seem to be knee-jerk responses to every change as it appears in the timetable.

For the record, Stobart are not selling E195s. They bought three (from Flybe's lessor), which they leased back to Flybe prior to taking them into their own fleet. So far only one has been delivered to Stobart and is in service. The second is at Exeter presumably awaiting delivery and now reportedly in an all white paint scheme. The third is due to be delivered in November . Stobart also have two other E195s which they have dry leased from Flybe. That lease is nominally due to expire next year but has early termination options. It has been expected those aircraft would be returned to Flybe as Stobart' s new E195s arrive.
I must agree with the above and lots of people trying to read into a cloudy crystal ball holding the business secrets not available to the public domain just yet. Less speculation please, and provide only confirmed information as it is released. Thanks.

[tophat27dt]

What influence do flyBe have over the franchise services STK operate from SEN?
I have always wondered too, but only the top brass know the answer.

[TartinTon]

What influence do flyBe have over the franchise services STK operate from SEN?

Absolutely none. All the commercial risk is taken by Stobarts and therefore all route decisions are taken by them.

[bigjim99]

The E-jets will be in shamrocks for EIR soon enough I'd say.

With FR picking up at SEN, what better time to reduce the BE services. I very much doubt they'd have been profitable but did provide the cover of a 'growing' airport.

​​​​

[AirportPlanner1]

Less speculation please, and provide only confirmed information as it is released. Thanks.

In fairness the changes will draw speculation because of the scale of them and because they are inconsistent.

They’ve gone from the summer timetable almost replicated into winter, to some midweek flights dropping out (not necessarily abnormal), to whole routes dropping out. Then the date of routes ending shifting forward, end-dates that don’t really make sense, and constant re-jigging of some of the remaining schedule.

[virginblue]

Realistically, the whole purpose of Stobart Air SEN operation was to put the airport on the radar of the airline industry and to use it as a guinea pig. That apparently has been successful. In general, if it would be such a great idea that airports have their own airline, it would happen every where. In reality, it is not done. Admittedly, Stobart Air (now) has a much larger footprint outside SEN nowadays thanks to the Aer Arann takeover, but in the beginning it was a SEN-airline..

[SWBKCB]

Admittedly, Stobart Air (now) has a much larger footprint outside SEN nowadays thanks to the Aer Arann takeover, but in the beginning it was a SEN-airline..

No - the Aer Lingus flying pre-dates the SEN ops by a good few years.

[virginblue]

You are right. Although Stobart Air announced its operation from SEN in early 2014 and at that point owned only 45 per cent of Everdeal, the parent company of Aer Arann, they already had a platform to operate SEN services back then (IIRC correctly, they became majority/sole owner soon afterwards) I meant to say that they built an "airline within the airline" with a separate franchise deal, newly acquired aircraft etc.

[Expressflight]

Absolutely none. All the commercial risk is taken by Stobarts and therefore all route decisions are taken by them.
While all commercial risk is taken by Stobart for the routes it chooses to launch under the Flybe franchise it would be normal for there to be a clause in the franchise agreement allowing Flybe to veto any route for commercial reasons. Rather than launching a SEN-GLA route surely EDI and BHD would have been more logical choices to Stobart, yet Flybe operate from LCY to both and I suggest they objected to the competition that Flybe branded services from SEN to those destinations would present.

[DC3 Dave]

https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london/stobart-STOB/share-news/Stobart-Group-Limited-Pre-Close-Trading-Statement/78294445

Note the comment regarding the franchise operation.

[DC3 Dave]

Well I never!

Stobart Air to Operate Routes From London City Under BA CityFlyer Brand (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/stobart-air-to-operate-routes-from-london-city-under-ba-cityflyer-brand/)

[Porky Speedpig]

Well I never!

Stobart Air to Operate Routes From London City Under BA CityFlyer Brand (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/stobart-air-to-operate-routes-from-london-city-under-ba-cityflyer-brand/)

Interesting, I wonder if this is part of the 4 aircraft expansion announced by BACF or in addition?

[cornishsimon]

Note that these are E90s to allow LCY operations so that will bring the STK fleet to 5.

3x95
2x90


cs

[Alteagod]

Well that's a kick in the nuts to BE.

[BAladdy]

Note that these are E90s to allow LCY operations so that will bring the STK fleet to 5.

3x95
2x90


cs

The ACMI agreement is for a initial 3 year period. It looks like it will be two of the 3 EI registered aircraft in there fleet as Stobart are returning G-FBEF and G-FBEH to BE in March.

The 3 E-Jets operated by Stobart are currently with 118 seats. I am guessing that they will be reconfigured to the standard 98 seat BACF configuration.

[southside bobby]

Did Stobart bid for EZY handling at MAN & BRS as it has been awarded to DHL as LGW previously.

STN appears to be the only base (apart from SEN) that utilises Stobart Handling.

[tophat27dt]

The ACMI agreement is for a initial 3 year period. It looks like it will be two of the 3 EI registered aircraft in there fleet as Stobart are returning G-FBEF and G-FBEH to BE in March.

The 3 E-Jets operated by Stobart are currently with 118 seats. I am guessing that they will be reconfigured to the standard 98 seat BACF configuration.
Their 3 E195s are not involved. The two ex Virgin Australia E190s recently leased will be used by BACF with 98 seats.

[Expressflight]

The 3 E-Jets operated by Stobart are currently with 118 seats. I am guessing that they will be reconfigured to the standard 98 seat BACF configuration.
It wouldn't matter how they were configured as the E195 cannot be certificated for LCY ops.

[brian_dromey]

Looks like Stobart are putting their E-Jet capabilities to good use and this deal will probably improve the economics of the 3 195's a bit too. They still have 3 195s to find profitable work for, however. This is either a great move, or adding fuel to an Embraer powered fire. I don't want to see this playing out like flyBe...the 195s have damn near killed them off. The legacy still might.

[fjencl]

When does the BAcityflier contract start as the link is broken.

[Tagron]

The potential benefits to Stobart from the BACF deal seem clear enough, but what is in it for BACF? They already have a large and expanding fleet of E190s (20+) so one might think it would be easy enough for them to lease extra E190s themselves from Nordic Aviation Capital and just operate them as part of the existing fleet. What can Stobart do better or cheaper than BACF itself ? One answer presumably is crew costs. Thin end of a wedge ?

[Red Four]

The latest Stobart RNS says contract starting 16th November - that's not far off now.

[southside bobby]

Perhaps nothing extra loaded on the BACF balance sheet.

[Expressflight]

The potential benefits to Stobart from the BACF deal seem clear enough, but what is in it for BACF? They already have a large and expanding fleet of E190s (20+) so one might think it would be easy enough for them to lease extra E190s themselves from Nordic Aviation Capital and just operate them as part of the existing fleet. What can Stobart do better or cheaper than BACF itself ? One answer presumably is crew costs. Thin end of a wedge ?
Yes it does all seem rather odd. The advantages to BACF of doing it this way seem very small and they lose direct control over day to day operational matters which could affect on-time performance etc.. From the Stobart point of view it's a normal commercial arrangement through which they will, hopefully, generate a profit but to achieve that they have to lease in a couple of aircraft specifically for it. One would think that they may have less immediate need to recruit additional flight deck crew as they have just reduced their E195 flying programme at SEN with no obvious placements elsewhere for the aircraft. Let's hope it works out well for both parties.

[southside bobby]

Every report SO FAR quotes a STK statement that they are hiring 10 flight deck & 30 cabin crew for this venture.

This is in addition to the 60 crew quoted as already hired & retained for the 3 other ERJ190`s.

[cumbrianboy]

it gives BACF flexibility, and its not unprecedented. BACF have used ACMI capacity for years on their network, with Saab 2000's and E170s from other airlines covering work. It makes sense as they can move capacity around and grow without loading the cost base and balance sheet as has been mentioned.

[AirportPlanner1]

Every report SO FAR quotes a STK statement that they are hiring 10 flight deck & 30 cabin crew for this venture.

This is in addition to the 60 crew quoted as already hired & retained for the 3 other ERJ190`s.

Even though Stobart have existing crew at SEN both they and the new aircraft will need to be certified for LCY operations. They can’t just shuttle them down the A13 on a whim.

[Expressflight]

Even though Stobart have existing crew at SEN both they and the new aircraft will need to be certified for LCY operations. They can’t just shuttle them down the A13 on a whim.
Exactly, which makes a start date of 16th November rather surprising.

[Tagron]

This may offer a clue. As of 1 January 2019 the rules are changing in relation to the off balance sheet treatment of aircraft on operating leases of greater than 12 months.

https://www.twobirds.com/en/news/articles/2016/global/an-end-to-off-balance-sheet-aircraft-operating-leases

And I believe that Eastern are no longer operating their E170 and S2000 for BACF ?

[Cyrano]

The potential benefits to Stobart from the BACF deal seem clear enough, but what is in it for BACF? They already have a large and expanding fleet of E190s (20+) so one might think it would be easy enough for them to lease extra E190s themselves from Nordic Aviation Capital and just operate them as part of the existing fleet. What can Stobart do better or cheaper than BACF itself ? One answer presumably is crew costs. Thin end of a wedge ?

A few weeks ago (and as recently as last week (https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401492308/stobart-air-e190-fo-rated-and-non-rated-dublin-/)), Stobart were recruiting E190 pilots to be based in Dublin. Right now, BACF has to overnight crew in Dublin to operate the early DUB-LCY (and has only one DUB->LCY departure before 0800, compared to two by CityJet/Aer Lingus). It could be that BACF wants to compete more effectively but doesn't want to base its own crew in Dublin?

[Sharklet_321]

Given Stobart are an Irish registered airline, doesn't this mean they need a British AOC with British registered aircraft from March 2019? Do they have this in hand yet?

[22/04]

Given Stobart are an Irish registered airline, doesn't this mean they need a British AOC with British registered aircraft from March 2019? Do they have this in hand yet?

We don't know yet- depends on the Brexit deal - only yes for sure in the "no deal" scenario

[BAladdy]

I have heard that the first E90 is planned to begin operating for BACF In a couple of weeks time. Does anyone know when the second aircraft is planned to enter service with BACF?.

[Expressflight]

I did hear that the second aircraft will be delivered in February 2019 but cannot confirm that as being correct..

[EI-BUD]

Excellent news for Stobart, I.e. the BACF ACMI deal. Best of luck to one and all...!

[BAladdy]

First E90 will be registered EI-GHJ. Aircraft is ex Virgin Australia aircraft VH-ZPI.

The aircraft will begin operating for BACF on 16th November, which is two days earlier than previously announced. During the first week of operation the aircraft is due to operate

MON - BA7301/BA7302/BA4455/BA4456/BA7305/BA7306 (LCY-LIN-LCY-RTM-LCY-LIN-LCY)
TUE - BA8761/BA8762/BA8453/BA8454/BA8738/BA8737 (LCY-FRA-LCY-AMS-LCY-FRA-LCY)
WED - BA8761/BA8762/BA8453/BA8454/BA8738/BA8737 (LCY-FRA-LCY-AMS-LCY-FRA-LCY)
THU - BA8761/BA8762/BA8453/BA8454/BA8738/BA8737 (LCY-FRA-LCY-AMS-LCY-FRA-LCY)
FRI - BA7301/BA7302/BA4455/BA4456/BA7305/BA7306 (LCY-LIN-LCY-RTM-LCY-LIN-LCY)
SAT - BA8491/BA8492/BA4464 (LCY-TXL-LCY-DUB)
SUN - BA4467/BA7305/BA7306 (DUB-LCY-LIN-LCY

The 2nd aircraft is showing as operating from 31st January. The 2nd aircraft will operate mostly to GVA and FCO. The S19 schedule has yet to be updated to show which flights Stobart aircraft will be operating

[southside bobby]

First of the acquired ERJ190`s is a 10 year old example.

Another site suggests marks allocated to this frame as EI-GHK.

[Nakata77]

This is a very good move by Stobart and distances themselves somewhat from Flybe who have been the authors of their own demise in many ways.

It would be interesting if Stobart manage to do this with other carriers in the UK; Virgin for example could be good for long-haul feed at Manchester.

Does anyone know what BA Cityflyer will do as they will seemingly have a significant amount of capacity to launch new routes or release aircraft for C-checks.

[PDXCWL45]

This is a very good move by Stobart and distances themselves somewhat from Flybe who have been the authors of their own demise in many ways.

It would be interesting if Stobart manage to do this with other carriers in the UK; Virgin for example could be good for long-haul feed at Manchester.

Does anyone know what BA Cityflyer will do as they will seemingly have a significant amount of capacity to launch new routes or release aircraft for C-checks.

Why would Virgin look to partner with Stobart when they already codeshare with Flybe at Manchester and around the UK? If Virgin wanted a short haul feeder airline they'd just buy Flybe.
What it shows is that as an airline Stoabart only see a future as an ACMI airline.

[SWBKCB]

What it shows is that as an airline Stoabart only see a future as an ACMI airline.

Agreed - an awful lot seems to be being read into this Cityflyer deal.

Is there any evidence that it is anything other than a straight forward ACMI lease?

[Expressflight]

.What it shows is that as an airline Stoabart only see a future as an ACMI airline.
So they don't still operate some 14 ATRs under Aer Lingus Regional branding. I must have missed that. That operation is a franchise deal operated largely at Stobart's financial risk and certainly not as an ACMI provider.
I also heard talk yesterday that they are looking at the Embraer E2 for future fleet replacements.

[PDXCWL45]

So they don't still operate some 14 ATRs under Aer Lingus Regional branding. I must have missed that. That operation is a franchise deal operated largely at Stobart's financial risk and certainly not as an ACMI provider.
I also heard talk yesterday that they are looking at the Embraer E2 for future fleet replacements.
They still operate that yes but how secure will it be in the future with Cityjet now operating for Aer Lingus?

[Expressflight]

True, but the Stobart/Aer Lingus agreement runs until 31st January 2022 and a lot can happen between now and then.

[rowly6339]

FlyBe up for sale/merger with Stobart being touted as possible buyer. Don't see how it would be beneficial as Stobart don't have the time or money to turn the business around, just my opinion of course but would love to hear other opinions on the issue.

[Sharklet_321]

I would agree rowly6339

I'm sure the board of stobart are saying things like 'why bother inheriting a whole load of bulls**t when we could in theory do it from scratch ourselves a whole lot cheaper and with less baggage'.

[compton3bravo]

I think Stobart have more pressing matters at the moment regarding a court case with a certain Mr T than contemplating taking an interest in a failing airline.

[SWBKCB]

And wasn't the original bid for BE one of the reasons for the falling out? I'd have thought that if Stobart were still interested, the deal would have been done before BE went public.

[Expressflight]

I really cannot see Stobart making a renewed bid for Flybe. Things have changed since then.

[Wycombe]

I really cannot see Stobart making a renewed bid for Flybe

Not even if they can pick it up for a song, cherry-pick the good bits and then operate it as a BA franchise (for which there is now a precedent)?

[Sharklet_321]

'cherry pick the good bits'

better to let it go under and then the contracts are null and void.

if you take it over you inherit the good with the bad, you can't cherry pick

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Not even if they can pick it up for a song, cherry-pick the good bits and then operate it as a BA franchise (for which there is now a precedent)?

Willie Walsh ended the dash for franchises at BA, Loganair was not renewed and ended up with flybe. Only two remain, Comair in SA, and Sun Air, quite what the latter brings to the table in terms of the larger BA operation I have never worked out.

[SWBKCB]

Not even if they can pick it up for a song, cherry-pick the good bits and then operate it as a BA franchise (for which there is now a precedent)?

What precedent? Aren't BA moving away from the franchise model, having just a couple of legacy contracts left?

[cornishsimon]

Think that by precedent they were meaning that BA are contracting STK under wet lease for two x E90s at LCY.

Totally different to a huge domestic operation as a franchise.

However bot not without merit.

BE could well turn into a kind of uk one world feeder airline, MAN, DUB etc for QR, AA, CX etc

cs

[Expressflight]

The ACMI contract that Stobart Air have with BACF for the operation of two E190s is one thing, a BA/Stobart Air franchise would be totally different and most unlikely in my opinion.

[Wycombe]

a BA/Stobart Air franchise would be totally different

You're right, I'm forgetting the difference between an ACMI Contract and a franchise.

Having said that, I still think a BA-branded franchise regional operation would go down well at the likes of SOU, BHX, MAN, CWL, EXT, EDI and GLA. Ops would obviously need to be de-conflicted with CFE at LCY.

[Andy_S]

FlyBe up for sale/merger with Stobart being touted as possible buyer. Don't see how it would be beneficial as Stobart don't have the time or money to turn the business around, just my opinion of course but would love to hear other opinions on the issue.

It was a bad idea then and a worse one now. Why weigh yourself down with a failing business when you have issues of your own to sort out?

(You do wonder if Flybe might be regretting rebuffing Stobart's previous overtures?)

[Brigantee]

Cannot see Stobart being daft enough tto buy a lemon like flybe TBH
Flybe missed a-trick earlier this year for sure, Just another example of poor decision making thats plauged them since COW took the helm

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know when Stibart are planning to take delivery of the first E90 to be leased to BACF. I am guessing it is delayed as some of the flights it was meant to operate from later this week are now showing as operated by a BACF E-jer or a RJ85, which I am guessing is being leased from Jota.

[DC3 Dave]

Cannot see Stobart being daft enough tto buy a lemon like flybe TBH
Flybe missed a-trick earlier this year for sure, Just another example of poor decision making thats plauged them since COW took the helm

Stobart has a major problem. If Flybe cease trading, then exactly how will flights on the franchise routes be sold? Even if the administrators allowed trading to continue for a period, the damage to the Flybe brand would in turn damage Stobart with people unwilling to book flights, no matter what reassurance they were offered.

They must have a plan.

[Expressflight]

Does anyone know when Stibart are planning to take delivery of the first E90 to be leased to BACF. I am guessing it is delayed as some of the flights it was meant to operate from later this week are now showing as operated by a BACF E-jer or a RJ85, which I am guessing is being leased from Jota.


It's reported this morning on a f/b forum that EI-GHK is due to arrive at SEN later today.

[shamrock7seal]

DC3 Dave - they would have to either fast track their own Stobart Air site or use that of a partner, Loganair?

As I see it the ONlY advantages Stobart would have in a take over of Flybe would be overall size for improved negotiating power & consolidation of London routes to remove competition but that’s about it.

But like I said on another post Staobart Air have lost £38m in 6 months. They are clearly MORE loss making than Flybe. How would buying Flybe help them? And what exactly would Stobart management do differently to turn fortunes around?

[JobsaGoodun]

I'm not sure you can look at Stobart in this way. Sure they lost a load of money on their flying but to me, there was clearly an ulterior motive.

They own the airport and so launching flights was an investment to prove that a market exists to attract the likes of Ryanair and probably others. This will significantly increase the revenue at the airport (all of which flows to Stobart) and at the same time increases the value of the airport itself. In a few years time the 38m 'investment' could produce them a very healthy return.

[brian_dromey]

Stobart should be making money on the Aer Lingus and BA branded flying. The ATR routes from SEN also thought to be ok. It’s the 195s that are propurted to be the main source of losses. Interesting that many of the routes they currently fly on are being taken over by FR and U2. Makes me wonder if the 195 makes any sense at all as a P2P aircraft.

[mik3bravo]

It was (is) the three 195s they operate out of SEN which cause serious problems and have in part caused reputations damage to Stobart and indeed Flybe. They need to either go altogether or replace with more reliable airframes. A redundant argument now as Flybe edges closer to a point of no return and it's ultimate potential administration and possible asset fire sale. Even if Stobart in their devine wisdom make a rash business decision to acquire Flybe, the fact those three fault ridden 195s remain in the fleet will result in extended negative impacts to Stobart and indirectly SEN too. Best dispose of those leases and the aircraft's in question.

[cornishsimon]

I wasn’t aware that flybe forced the 3 E95 frames on STK

Stobart aren’t blameless over the issues with reliability at SEN, far from it

cs

[Expressflight]

Stobart aren’t blameless over the issues with reliability at SEN, far from it.



Not completely no, but the poor serviceability record of the E195s (one in particular) that Flybe leased to Stobart was the main problem as I know to my cost. The one Stobart E195, EI-GGC, that has operated latterly at SEN has proven much more reliable.

Incidentally the first Stobart E190 is due into SEN this afternoon, its departure from the USA being delayed until this morning.

[brian_dromey]

Duplicate post.

[brian_dromey]

I believe Stobart actually bought the 195s, so the leases shouldn’t be onorous going forward. They are wet-leasing the 195s from flyBe currently. Which is probably pricey and real cash flowing out of the business. I think it took longer than planned to get the 195s operational.

Stobart would likely be interested in the 6 ATRs that flyBe operate for SAS, they could probably buy that without the rest of the airline.

[Cloud1]

I must say the E195s were and are more reliable under Flybe’s full ownership. It only seems to be since they went to SEN. Either sensitive crew new to each warning light (quite common with new aircraft types before anyone jumps out their chair in rage) or simply lacking line engineers to the same standards that Flybe had at their stations? Just a thought

[Brigantee]

“Warning lights” .....😂love it

[brian_dromey]

I must say the E195s were and are more reliable under Flybe’s full ownership. It only seems to be since they went to SEN. Either sensitive crew new to each warning light (quite common with new aircraft types before anyone jumps out their chair in rage) or simply lacking line engineers to the same standards that Flybe had at their stations? Just a thought

Unlikely. As stated upthread, initially 3, but now 2 aircraft are operated by flyBe. They are responsible for line maintenance at SEN for the G- registered aircraft. As you say, line maintenance at SEN may be unfamiliar with the aircraft - they are much less common than 737/320s. As experience improves, so should performance.

[mik3bravo]

Unlikely. As stated upthread, initially 3, but now 2 aircraft are operated by flyBe. They are responsible for line maintenance at SEN for the G- registered aircraft. As you say, line maintenance at SEN may be unfamiliar with the aircraft - they are much less common than 737/320s. As experience improves, so should performance.
These specific aircraft registrations go tech at Dublin and other locations too. They don't just go tech at SEN. So suggesting unfamiliarity of flight crews with type or line engineers is a redundant argument. The simple issue is these three aircraft are plagued with high frequency of phantom tech problems which have resulted in persistent unreliable services on routes ranging from delays to complete cancellation of flights. Anyway, enough said, they need to be removed from the fleet and either replaced with more reliable type or switch them for completely different types. They need to be dumped from the fleet, and of.

Repeat pax business won't happen on these routes which these three specific aircraft operate. It damaged the business of SEN, Stobart Air, and Flybe. Aeroflot will be more reliable at this stage!

[Cloud1]

There we have it folks milk3bravo has spoken.....there is no more discussion, he or her of the trump administration has voiced their view and that’s it. As milk3bravo says “end of”.

Thank god we have someone that works in aviation with sufficient experience in every field to be able to come up with such firm conclusions.

[mik3bravo]

Most welcome. Get back to your basketweaving.:D

[shamrock7seal]

How would this proposed merger between Flybe and BA Cityflyer affect Stobart???

[Expressflight]

How would this proposed merger between Flybe and BA Cityflyer affect Stobart???
As far as I'm aware that has only appeared as a rumour in your own post on the Flybe thread. I've seen nothing elsewhere that suggests that unlikely tie-up is in the offing.

[BA318]

How would this proposed merger between Flybe and BA Cityflyer affect Stobart???

The only source of this rumour is you. It's not been mentioned anywhere else or heard by anyone else - even those working in either organisation so I'm guessing its unlikely at the moment. If it did happen, I doubt it would have much impact as Stobart Air already work with BA Cityflyer and Flybe and Aer Lingus!

[compton3bravo]

The boss of easyJet came out this morning when reporting on their half year results that they were not interested in Flybe but we're always on the lookout for any opportunities that may come along. In other words if Flybe went bust pick up any routes which might be feasible using an A319.

[Gurnard]

The boss of easyJet came out this morning when reporting on their half year results that they were not interested in Flybe but we're always on the lookout for any opportunities that may come along. In other words if Flybe went bust pick up any routes which might be feasible using an A319.
Not sure how this relates to Stobart.:confused:

[shamrock7seal]

One thing that shows the seriousness of the Flybe booking situation right now is their special sale with double loyalty points. Another legacy move. They are nailing their own coffin shut.

This will surely be affecting stobarts sales performance (being their only source of distribution at the moment)

[Expressflight]

Aer Lingus is not a "source of distribution" for Stobart Air?

[shamrock7seal]

Sorry expressflight, referring to their SEN operation only.

[SWBKCB]

One thing that shows the seriousness of the Flybe booking situation right now is their special sale with double loyalty points. Another legacy move. They are nailing their own coffin shut.

This will surely be affecting stobarts sales performance (being their only source of distribution at the moment)

Can you explain - airline runs sale/promotions at the slowest time of the year doesn't seem too alarming a move (if it is, judging by my inbox, BE aren't alone!)

[JobsaGoodun]

Seriously Shamrock.....Did they move Black Friday to suit Flybe's marketing requirements??? I could've sworn that I've seen other companies with sales on at the moment.

[AirportPlanner1]

Looks like Ryanair and Jet2 are about to call in the administrators too, tough times. I’d better not take them up on the bargains they’re offering me.

[Flightrider]

Airportplanner, that has to be one of the most stupid and banale posts ever made on this BB. Congratulations - there has been some stiff competition over the years.

[AirportPlanner1]

Airportplanner, that has to be one of the most stupid and banale posts ever made on this BB. Congratulations - there has been some stiff competition over the years.

???

Perhaps read the original post it’s mocking

[Flightrider]

I did read it. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

[Doc Q]

I did read it. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.


And to complete Oscars famous saying .....but the highest form of intelligence

[shamrock7seal]

SWBKCB i’M of course referring to the loyalty programme SALE not the seat sale. Loyalty programmes are complex to manage, costly to implement (not immediately but later when you need to honour points) costly and manpower heavy.

[PDXCWL45]

SWBKCB i’M of course referring to the loyalty programme SALE not the seat sale. Loyalty programmes are complex to manage, costly to implement (not immediately but later when you need to honour points) costly and manpower heavy.
Yet Easyjet have a loyalty scheme called flight club and in their end of year presentation they want to expand it. Loyalty schemes bring back repeat customers.

[shamrock7seal]

'Loyalty' club only in name.

Pls look in detail at what Flight Club is and you'll get what i'm trying to say here. Flybe's programme is very heavy on cost, complexity and liability.

[Sharklet_321]

I assume that Stobart will reconsider their NQY service in light of the 4-times daily LHR service. In my opinion SEN-NQY doesn’t stand a chance with this additional capacity.

[Expressflight]

I assume that Stobart will reconsider their NQY service in light of the 4-times daily LHR service. In my opinion SEN-NQY doesn’t stand a chance with this additional capacity.
So how much extra capacity does a 4 x Q400 LHR service offer over the current 3 x E195 LGW service? Not a lot.

[AirportPlanner1]

I assume that Stobart will reconsider their NQY service in light of the 4-times daily LHR service. In my opinion SEN-NQY doesn’t stand a chance with this additional capacity.

Why shouldn’t it stand a chance? SEN-NQY will I imagine predominantly be used by locals heading to Cornwall on their holidays as it was last time around and as it was while the service was at STN. It also gives a bit of flexibility for Cornish folk heading more east. LHR won’t make the blindest bit of difference because those people would be unlikely to use it anyway. I think LHR also represents a drop in capacity over previous summers when it was 3xE195 daily.

[tophat27dt]

I assume that Stobart will reconsider their NQY service in light of the 4-times daily LHR service. In my opinion SEN-NQY doesn’t stand a chance with this additional capacity.
What a ridiculous statement! How can LHR flights possibly affect SEN flights on opposite sides of London? They are different types of travellers anyway.

[davidjohnson6]

Once Crossrail opens, Southend will find itself competing with Heathrow. Maybe residents of the far east of Essex will find Southend the obvious compellung choice, but people living in east London or west Essex will find a new credible option available to them

[AirportPlanner1]

Once Crossrail opens, Southend will find itself competing with Heathrow. Maybe residents of the far east of Essex will find Southend the obvious compellung choice, but people living in east London or west Essex will find a new credible option available to them

The benefit of Crossrail to folk in Essex isn’t huge and is overstated. You still need to get to Stratford or Liverpool St and change; you’d be crazy to get on in Shenfield as mainline trains will shoot past while you stop at every station.

Yes if you’re on the mainline and its branches such as Southend Victoria the journey to Heathrow will become quicker, but not so much so that Heathrow becomes any more desirable compared to local options than it is now. If you’re on the west Anglia line the benefit of Crossrail is even less.

[DC3 Dave]

You are absolutely right. According to TFL's website the fastest time from Stratford to LHR is less than an hour. And fastest time Shenfield to Stratford is 19 minutes. The gain is all about convenience and capacity, because it will take 1hr 18mins direct on Crossrail from Shenfield and LHR.

Crossrail will bring many benefits but a Bullet Train it is not.

[TartinTon]

So how much extra capacity does a 4 x Q400 LHR service offer over the current 3 x E195 LGW service? Not a lot.

Err...if my maths is correct then it's less seats.....3 x 118 = 354 vs 4 x 78 = 312....I make that 42 one-way seats less per day than the current LGW option

[cornishsimon]

Your numbers are correct when based on the E95 which is leaving the fleet soon anyway

the E95 has already had some time away from the LGw route where it was replaced by the E75 due to mx elsewhere in the network

the LGW route was always scheduled to move to the E75 during 2019


cs

[Expressflight]

Err...if my maths is correct then it's less seats.....3 x 118 = 354 vs 4 x 78 = 312....I make that 42 one-way seats less per day than the current LGW option
Thanks for pointing that out. I was thinking E175s for NQY-LGW next year but typed E195 so hopefully my original post now makes sense.

[DC3 Dave]

Does this suggest a problem ahead, or just a temporary setback?

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/shock-as-stobart-slashes-dividend-by-two-thirds-a4006726.html

[SWBKCB]

It suggests that the link isn't working any more...

Works for me.

[M-JCS]

I wonder if Flybe would be considered a "value creating opportunity based on sustainable operating cash generation" and, for that matter, an asset for a strong balance sheet? What could Stobart do with Flybe that hasn't been done already, and how much time (and investment) would it take?

[Andy_S]

Does this suggest a problem ahead, or just a temporary setback?

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/shock-as-stobart-slashes-dividend-by-two-thirds-a4006726.html

It suggests (as some of us have been saying for quite a while) that the dividends being paid by Stobart were unaffordable and unsustainable.

[airbourne]

What rotations are STK doing on the DUB-LCY route?

[BAladdy]

STK are only currently operating the BA4464 on a Saturday to DUB and the BA4467 on a Sunday from Dublin. They will begin operating more rotations on the LCY-DUB route once the 2nd E90 enters service

[Sharklet_321]

I'm curious as to why Cityflyer seems to be in this under-capacity situation where they need the help of a competitor?

[tophat27dt]

I'm curious as to why Cityflyer seems to be in this under-capacity situation where they need the help of a competitor?
Stobart Air Leasing is hardly a competitor, except that the parent company operate Southend.

[southside bobby]

…& another part of the empire fund & operate services from Southend of course.

[tophat27dt]

…& another part of the empire fund & operate services from Southend of course.
Yes of course. But the other EMBs will stop operating schedules from SEN in the New Year.

[DC3 Dave]

No sign of olive branches here.


Happy Christmas
to all the honourable People in life. Let’s keep fighting against the Evil that try to destroy the good we have created. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year thanks for your support. 2019 will be a big surprise for wrongful behaviour. Best Wishes Andrew.

Copied from an Andrew Tinkler Christmas day post on Twitter.

[DC3 Dave]

Serious stuff?

​​​​​​https://news.sky.com/story/virgin-and-stobart-take-off-with-flybe-in-cut-price-deal-11604069

[EI-BUD]

With some luck the Dublin - Cardiff route will return to Aer Lingus Regional, and maybe bring the SOU route over too, though upon reflection with no early slots from Dublin available, maybe it won't happen..

[mik3bravo]

Serious stuff?

​​​​​​https://news.sky.com/story/virgin-and-stobart-take-off-with-flybe-in-cut-price-deal-11604069

Someone's got to go in and sort it out at FlyBE. Clear out needed, new leadership.

[mik3bravo]

With some luck the Dublin - Cardiff route will return to Aer Lingus Regional, and maybe bring the SOU route over too, though upon reflection with no early slots from Dublin available, maybe it won't happen..

Two things sprung to mind:

1. if FlyBE get those E195's sorted out and address the recurring faults on that Dublin route then they'll be strongly positioned on that route before Ryanair begin running their SEN - DUB service in April

2. Not sure Ryanair will achieve strong loads on that SEN - DUB route, B737 seems a lot of seats to try fill. The FlyBE E195 on that route struggle to fill lately, but probably because people shifted over to alternative options due to the faults and unreliability of the E195s on that route

Either way, it's clear to me that more competition is great for consumers, more options, more price competition AND more importantly, creating local employment in the Southend area.

[PDXCWL45]

With some luck the Dublin - Cardiff route will return to Aer Lingus Regional, and maybe bring the SOU route over too, though upon reflection with no early slots from Dublin available, maybe it won't happen..

I can't see Flybe giving up the Dublin route from Cardiff. It's one of their busiest routes and it's one they have been steadingly increasing as it will be 15 weekly for Summer 2019. I also think there isn't enough connecting traffic to the USA they'd have to rely on point to point and do they want that? Cardiff has KLM which is 3 daily and their USA offerings and also CDG at next year 11 weekly and Heathrow down the road and from my personal experience the transit experience on the way out at Dublin isn't as good as AMS and negates the pre-clearance advantage in my view. On the way back it's fine but on the way out i had to go through 2 security checkpoints which i found to be a hassle.
It

[22/04]

1. if FlyBE get those E195's sorted out and address the recurring faults on that Dublin route then they'll be strongly positioned on that route before Ryanair begin running their SEN - DUB service in April

Ryanair will kill them dead-their fares will be irresistible-anyway that is what they normally do. As for the 737 being too big - RYR don't seem to mind too much if the rest of what they are doing works- the FR341 ex DUB to LTN at 10 p.m. is often less than full. don't know what the timings are at SEN.

[DC3 Dave]

There is absolutely no way Stobart will compete with FR to Dublin. Handing that route over in April after keeping it warm was a major part of the deal.

It's possible Stobart could operate an early pm flight, but again if it proved popular they would stand aside as soon as they were asked to do so.

[SARF]

Sen Dublin on that schedule will be a big seller for Ryan air

[mik3bravo]

Sen Dublin on that schedule will be a big seller for Ryan air

They're LGW, LTN, STN to DUB services are generally choca block stuffed so I think when people from around the general SEN catchment area learn you can hit DUB from SEN, then they'll likely select to fly from SEN over LGW or STN (or remotely, the LTN option too). I think you're right.

Similarly when folks in DUB learn you can land in SEN with none of the fuss you got to deal with at STN or LGW, plus be in Liverpool St in under the hour, I think it will work out fine for FR.

[compton3bravo]

I don't think SEN has too much to worry about the LTN-Dublin route. Most pax are from around Bedfordshire/MK area,; Luton itself has a large Irish community and the North London area around Kilburn has also a large Irish community. Some overlap maybe with Stansted and you also have LCY if you want to pay a little more plus many more rotations.

[DND delivery]

Stobart Air is to operate flights for KLM Cityhopper this coming summer. KLM Cityhopper and Stobart Air have entered into a wetlease agreement, to be carried out with an E195. Stobart will operate 8 flights a day from Dublin.

[brian_dromey]

Stobart Air is to operate flights for KLM Cityhopper this coming summer. KLM Cityhopper and Stobart Air have entered into a wetlease agreement, to be carried out with an E195. Stobart will operate 8 flights a day from Dublin.

Sounds like thats both E-195s accounted for? Or are they operating 4 return flights?

[DND delivery]

I think it's 4 return flights, however I'm not entirely sure about that. Also I wouldn't be surprised if KLM end up using the wetlease on other routes as well, as they did with Carpatair last year.

[fatmed]

Would this be the VS/AF/KLM tie up working with the VS/Stobart tie up bearing some fruit already ?

[brian_dromey]

Would this be the VS/AF/KLM tie up working with the VS/Stobart tie up bearing some fruit already ?
I wouldn’t have thought so. Stobart have been looking to place the 195s for several months. Negotiations would take weeks rather than days, I suspect.

[Robert-Ryan]

It looks nailed on that Durham Tees Valley Airport is to be nationalised on Thursday, with Stobart the strongly rumoured new operator. How close are Stobart Aviation Group with Stobart Air? I would imagine one would bring the other with it?

[fjencl]

You never know, for all we know, Stobart could also end up doing wet lease on the Durham Tees Valley Airport to Amsterdam flights.

[SWBKCB]

It didn't at Carlisle. I suppose it depends on how much money they have to spend.

At Carlisle they've managed to build themselves a new warehouse and office building in green belt land, re-built the runway but treated the resident operators abysmally and haven't actually provided the promised airline services.

At Southend they spent big (very big!) and have attracted some big name operators, but in one of the bigggest, most capacity constrained aviation markets in the world.

Which example will most reflect the MME experience? Be interesting to see if the nature of the deal struck by the mayor is made public.

Given the need to keep SEN expanding, get CAX up and running, deal with the Tinkler case, be involved in the Flybe venture, there's never going to be a dull moment in Stobart Towers! :ok:

[toledoashley]

Teeside does look attractive for at least more feeder flights and it will be interesting what happens there.

[SWBKCB]

Teesside does look attractive for at least more feeder flights

Where do you think could be candidates??

[Expressflight]

Would this be the VS/AF/KLM tie up working with the VS/Stobart tie up bearing some fruit already ?
I don't think so as I first heard about the KLM E195 deal six weeks ago.

[SWBKCB]

Andrew Tinkler sells £5.6m of shares in Stobart Group (https://www.timesandstar.co.uk/news/17375071.andrew-tinkler-sells-56m-of-shares-in-stobart-group/)Andrew Tinkler has sold £5.6 million-worth of shares in Stobart Group. The London Stock Exchange was informed of the disposal, which will see Mr Tinkler’s voting rights fall to 5.91 per cent from 6.93 per cent.

[compton3bravo]

I suppose they could start a three times daily Teesside-Southend money spinning service!

[BAladdy]

The 2nd E190 that is to be used to op for BACF (EI-GHJ) was delivered to Dublin on 02FEB. Anyone know what date it is planned to enter service op for BACF.

[tayair6]

The 2nd E190 that is to be used to op for BACF (EI-GHJ) was delivered to Dublin on 02FEB. Anyone know what date it is planned to enter service op for BACF.
GHJ did the STK service to DUB yesterday from SEN

[southside bobby]

...& has now however completed the very short hop from SEN over to LCY.

[SWBKCB]

Andrew Tinkler was lawfully removed as Stobart Group director, a High Court judge has ruled (https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/17436066.andrew-tinkler-was-lawfully-removed-as-stobart-group-director-a-high-court-judge-has-ruled/)

[DC3 Dave]

Another short piece from the Evening Standard on Tinkler v Stobart.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/stobart-group-claims-victory-in-high-court-battle-with-andrew-tinkler-a4068141.html

[airbourne]

Any word on when the KLM gig is happening and what frequencies?

[EI-BUD]

I've heard that ORK/SOU Aer Lingus Regional is to close...

[bigjim99]

Was always quite surprised how well ork/sou performed - would have thought a drop in frequency would have been more appropriate unless other factors are at play.

Maybe it's just moving over to the Flybe side of things? That could possibly mean that ORK could return to a 2 aircraft operation if they jig the SNN W's with Dublin?

Still, nothing surprises me. The way they managed and subsequently killed off the NCL/ORK route they are first class at shooting themselves in the foot.

[Expressflight]

Any word on when the KLM gig is happening and what frequencies?
I don't what routes will be operated but EI-GGA (ex G-FBEL) departed SEN for AMS this afternoon to commence its lease to KLM in an all white 'colour' scheme.

[Fly757X]

I don't what routes will be operated but EI-GGA (ex G-FBEL) departed SEN for AMS this afternoon to commence its lease to KLM in an all white 'colour' scheme.

Dublin and Geneva is what I’ve heard.

[DC3 Dave]

Can anyone confirm that Stobart are to operate two 195's for start up airline Great Dane from June?

[Jamesair]

I remember reading that in an aviation news item somewhere over the weekend but can't confirm the truth of it.

[BA318]

Can anyone confirm that Stobart are to operate two 195's for start up airline Great Dane from June?

They are leasing them. The first has already been painted. There is a thread on here with pictures.

[runway30]

They are leasing them. The first has already been painted. There is a thread on here with pictures.

https://4c2m3w36brcm8guop3tvkv1t-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/LARA-Great-Dane-E195.jpgPosted on: 14 May 2019 by Glenn Sands (https://www.hmgaerospace.com/about-us/meet-the-team/)



Great Dane Airlines, a regional start-up carrier has unveiled its first aircraft an Embraer 195, newly painted in the operator’s colours.

The aircraft, EI-GGC, a 2008 airframe was previously flown by Flybe. It is owned by the Cayman Islands-based lessor Propius which has connections with the UK’s Stobart Air, the company recently acquired, along with Flybe, by Connect Airways.

The new airline is planning to serve three destinations – Edinburgh, Nice and Dublin from Aalborg.

According the Denmark’s corporate registry, the carrier has undergone a recent major change of ownership. It indicates that the airline has been majority-owned since March by investor SEBC Holding, which also has diverse interests in hotel operations, business software, and a motor-racing circuit.

[fjencl]

Is Stobart Air still operating the 2 jets for BA Cityflier at LCY, or has that stopped now.