Lookout during cruise in upper airspace

[fireflybob]

Notwithstanding the legal requirement for the commander to ensure that a lookout is maintained at all times I am looking for reasons for a lookout to be maintained in the cruise in upper airspace assuming aircraft are equipped with TCAS. (I do appreciate that the "see and be seen" concept cannot be guaranteed when flying at high levels at typical cruise speeds).

As a retired experienced airline pilot who teaches flying locally I was asked this question by a PPL holder and I was scraping round for an an answer other than the possibility of TCAS failure or an aircraft flying non transponder.

[chevvron]

Bob, as an experienced pilot (which I'm not) you probably know the eye can deceive you up there.
I was on a controller familiarisation flight returning to Heathrow from Istanbul occupying the jumpseat of a '737 somewhere over what used to be Yugoslavia. We heard an opposite direction '747 check in on frequency at FL330; we were at FL350. Shortly after, we sighted it, but it appeared to the naked eye to be above us, not below us. Anyway we kept watching and its aspect slowly changed as it got closer until it passed underneath us, (the F/O naturally flashed our landing lights and he flashed back) helpfully tripping the radalt which was crabbed at 5,000ft; the 'low altitude' warning went off too!
You've probably experienced this yourself, but it does illustrate the usefulness of keeping a lookout at high level. This was also in the days before TCAS was invented.

[megan]

The 737 and Embraer head on didn't work out too well for the 737. Fate is the hunter?

[Rwy in Sight]

Not a pilot here but I was impressed by a thread on adopting solidly good habits and finesse. So looking out it might be one of those habits

Thread here: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/593609-no-automation-zero-zero-landing-finesse.html

[RAT 5]

You are all suggesting that 'lookout' is only a safety issue. If you don't look out where do you look? Surely one of the reasons of being a pilot is to have the best view in the office and you're supposed to enjoy it. I always wonder why so many people walk along the street looking at their feet as the world passes them by; even on the golf course. Astonishing. :)

[B2N2]

It's not only traffic you're looking for.
Also weather phenomena.
Thunderstorms, rotor clouds or anything embedded that only reveals itself by the top sticking out of an overcast.
One day I spotted a Walmart Happy birthday balloon that made it to 41,000.
It will give you quite a scare if you're zipping along at 500mph and you miss it by 10 feet.

[chevvron]

I always wonder why so many people walk along the street looking at their feet as the world passes them by;They're actually looking at their mobile 'phones not their feet!

[tubby linton]

In these days of phones with very good cameras, the lookout seems to be for photo opportunities!

[parabellum]

Unless your eyes are naturally focused on something outside the flight deck then they naturally focus about nine inches on the other side of the glass, particularly relevant at night.

[noflynomore]

Er...what rules apply flying airways?
IFR
The clue is in the name. Instrument.
There is no requirement to keep a lookout in IMC, indeed in many cases it cannot be done - of in instrument conditions.
Not saying it shouldn't be done if it can be, just that there is no need or requirement to.

[oggers]

Er, no. Flying IFR does not relieve the crew of the responsibility to maintain a lookout. IFR and IMC are two different things. The vast majority of IFR is done in VMC. When flying IFR it is required to maintain a lookout anytime you are VMC, which is most of the time in the cruise. It is common to make a visual approach under IFR, maybe you wouldn't lookout but professionals know they are required to.

[RAT 5]

under IFR, maybe you wouldn't lookout but professionals know they are required to.

Indeed: there was occasion for a CP to issue a 'notice to crews' that placing enroute charts in the front windows to shade the piercing sun during crz was not allowable. The SOP was no curtains.

[galaxy flyer]

You might ask the DL crew, charts for shades, about lookout over the ocean. Late 80s they passed within 200' of a Continental 747; having combined shades with a GNE.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

The guys at Air India were caught out doing the newspapers for sunblinds trick about 6 years ago.........

deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2 (http://gizmodo.com/5805760/air-india-pilots-caught-flying-with-newspaper-covered-windows)

[megan]

A QF 744 and a C-5 missed by 15 meters over Thailand years ago. In cloud at the time, but it would be nice to see it coming if you could.

[noflynomore]

under IFR, maybe you wouldn't lookout but professionals know they are required to.
Concorde pilots were clearly not Professionals then...or were they somehow exempt?

[aterpster]

It was part of the design and certification of an unusual airplane.

[galaxy flyer]

I doubt Concorde pilots had a lot of traffic to look out for.

[aterpster]

I suspect that point wasn't lost on the certifying authorities.

[megan]

I doubt Concorde pilots had a lot of traffic to look out forStill things to hit GF. SR-71 crew in the cruise reported just missing a weather balloon.

[noflynomore]

It was part of the design and certification of an unusual airplane.
A type-specific suspension of one of the Rules of the Air wasn't part of the certification process.
IMC = collision avoidance is the responsibioity of the controller, not the pilot. Ergo the pilot is not "required" to maintain a lookout, indeed as he is assumed to be IMC at all times by IFR rules he clearly cannot do so. Its nice if he can, and obviously a good idea to do so when possible, but it ain't a requirement because it can't be.
If it were so then Concorde could not have been certificated to fly with the heatshield up.

[aterpster]

I certainly do not agree that because an aircraft is on an IFR flight plan, that it is assumed to be IMC at all times.

Even in Class A airspace in VMC conditions pilots have a responsibility to maintain a traffic watch. In Class E airspace, there could be VFR aircraft not even in communications with ATC.

I didn't mean to imply that the Concorde's suspension of operating rules was part of the type certificate per-se. I suspect there was some altitude, below which, the Concorde crew had to be able to maintain a traffic watch in VMC conditions. Otherwise, it was a form of Russian Roulette.

[noflynomore]

I certainly do not agree that because an aircraft is on an IFR flight plan, that it is assumed to be IMC at all times.

In Controlled airspace (ie airways) it must be. The controller has no way of knowing your flight conditions so must assume you are always IMC. because you can be IMC the whole time they must assume you are. You cannot therefore be expected to achieve any lookout at all, let alone required to. Surely that is self-evident?
Weather radar and serviceable de-ice equipment is mandatory in airways - why? because you are assumed to be in permanent IMC - light icing is assumed to always exist in airways, is it not? You can't launch without either of these on the basis that it is a nice blue sky day - the are required equipment.
How can you possibly be required to conduct a lookout if you are in permanent IMC? This is very basic indeed...
The Concorde case proves this. There was no altitude "below which". Is there some altitude "below which" the clouds are required to clear for Concorde tp permit a lookout? Why? Wasn't Concorde capable of IFR flight or sumpn'? Why are other aircraft types exempt from this extraordinary scenario? What then happened to Concorde when cloud extended to minimas?

You cannot be serious - surely? Utter hokum. Sorry.

[megan]

If it were so then Concorde could not have been certificated to fly with the heatshield upVision was not impeded unduly with the nose raised on Concorde. It's not a heatshield, but for aerodynamic streamlining primarily, though it did protect the windshield from high temperatures that airflow stagnation would have caused otherwise. With the nose down the turbulence was such that the noise generated makes speech difficult to hear.

f9yAROE3s1M

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1971/1971%20-%201503.html

Suggested FAA cockpit vision standards.The manufacturing industry, represented by the Transport Airworthiness Requirements Committee of the Aerospace Industries Association, maintained that the proposed size of the clear vision field was in excess of that required to meet the most important objective of the proposed standards. That objective was to provide optimum vision for avoidance of midair collisions in "see and be seen" conditions of flight.https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_25_773-1.pdf

More importantly FAR 91.113 (b), which says: “When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.”

[aterpster]

More importantly FAR 91.113 (b), which says: “When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.”

Thanks for the regulatory cite. We also looked out for TRW avoidance when those conditions existed. As one of my pilot friends used to say, "One peek is worth a thousand sweeps." :O

[blind pew]

I joined SR in 1979 and was shocked to find that in CH and D VFR traffic would fly in IFR airspace whilst the ZRH controllers didn't bother to use primary.
That night I phoned a mate ex BEA and said that he had to tell someone as we never bothered to look out.
BEA had dirty,scratched screens which we used to protect our trousers from dirty meal trays.
SR issued us with Raybans...foc.

This was still going on in the 90s as I had two airmisses in quick succession, one of which was leaving the holding pattern which was so close I could see the look on the kraut's face and a cigar in his mouth.

WRT Concorde...when it went subsonic it couldn't maintain its previous cruising level and several times both over the Adriatic and Atlantic we had warnings from ATC that she was descending through our airspace.
Adriatic was noise heading over the Alps...Atlantic was technical.

Remember the Zagreb report...if the Trident crew had been looking out they might have avoided the collision.

[Denti]

I believe many european ATC units do not have access to primary anymore, certainly the case in germany as far as i know.

Anyway, yes, it is a very good idea to keep some lookout, especially in airspace that might have mixed use, mostly below FL100 in europe. And even during cruise, but mainly for weather avoidance. For traffic avoidance it is bloody useless, as most human beings cannot judge relative altitude worth a dime up there. Not to mention that transponders are a requirement, otherwise you won't be up there. And that TCAS is as well, well, for airline flying anyway. Yes, TCAS may be inop up to three days, but in my experience it is a very reliable piece of equipment, in 17 or so years of airline flying i had one failed TCAS, and it was repaired during the next nightstop.

Just checked our OM/A, no requirement for lookout during cruise, but a requirement to check weather via WX-radar and reports via ACARS.

[blind pew]

Would disagree Denti as Could have saved the Zagreb accident as they were on converging tracks in the proximity of a beacon.
Had a bit of a close shave in a stack at FFT with a 74 who probably started his descent early before leaving the fix...in between layers..

[galaxy flyer]

Flynomore,

You are the one who cannot be serious, Sir. Regardless of the type of flight plan or being IFR, if flying in VMC conditions, a lookout must be maintained and that must be true in the U.K. or EASA airspace.

[megan]

At 3:50. In sight for some time (con trail) before anyone takes corrective action. Wonder if the commercial saw anything?

P7DygPsJ_sA

[galaxy flyer]

Oh, that was exciting!

[noflynomore]

Flynomore,

You are the one who cannot be serious, Sir. Regardless of the type of flight plan or being IFR, if flying in VMC conditions, a lookout must be maintained and that must be true in the U.K. or EASA airspace.

An awful lot of "musts" in your post. You seem very sure of yourself.

Please post references to back this up for UK rules. (We've seen the FAA reference) It's just that I've never come across this as a mandatory requirement in some 30 years of airways flying and neither has any instructor I know, so one of us must be wrong...

ps. good practice is not the same as a mandatory requirement as i've said ad nauseam- but you insist this is mandated in the ANO. Please quote the reference or retract the statement.