Is it possible to fly to Holland from the UK without a transponder?

[Dodgy Oscar]

Hi Guys

I'm planning to fly to Teuge (EHTE) in Holland from the UK but my transponder has stopped working and I might not be able to get it fixed in time for the trip. Will it still be possible for me to fly there and if so, how do I go about it? e.g. do I avoid Class D etc. My original route was to be DVR KONAN KOK COA.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Jonathan

[Jan Olieslagers]

In BE no problem, but indeed stay out of controlled airspace, which already precludes KOK-COA at any altitude.

In NL remain below 1200' AMSL - sounds unattractive but in such flat country it is not impossible. I don't really know about your chances of being allowed in Controlled Airspace in NL with no transponder, but I feel they are slim at best.

Also don't forget you'll need to pass immigration (aka "customs") , I do not think this is available at Teuge so you'd need to land on the way. Options include LFAC Calais, EBKT Kortrijk, EHMZ Midden-Zeeland.

[Sam Rutherford]

You could claim (when asked "is your transponder working because we can't see it?") that it failed in flight. That makes everything possible, but it does also make everything possible! :-)

This is not official advice!

[Jan Olieslagers]

Or could claim you are enroute to EHMZ to have the excellent avionics shop look into it. Perhaps even consider actually doing so, too.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Really?

The emoticon perhaps needs to be more prominent.

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but suspect there's a difference - care to send the link/details and I'll see if I can clarify?

Cheers, Sam.

[BackPacker]

In the Netherlands, without a serviceable Mode S transponder, you are limited to altitudes below 1200' (which is not an issue - there is very little high ground in the Netherlands and only a few obstacles that high) and you need to remain outside controlled airspace.

If you only have a Mode A or Mode A/C transponder, that counts as an U/S Mode S transponder and officially needs to be switched OFF altogether. And yes, I agree that that is stupid, as it also prevents TCAS/PCAS from working.

As far as customs is concerned, your best bet would be EHMZ, or possibly EHSE. From there it's no problem to fly to EHTE outside controlled airspace and below 1200'. You'll probably follow any of the big rivers until clear of the EHDL airspace, and then head North for the entry point Sierra. Do watch the glider area Terlet that is located inside the EHDL airspace: Loads of gliders active east of that airspace.

And if you've never been to EHTE: Note that you can't see the runway yet at the point where you're supposed to join downwind. Maintain good navigation (look at the bends in the canal, and the orange circuit markers) to know where you need to turn. Also mind the noise sensitive areas.

[alex90]

Hi Jonathan,

A lot of things are possible without a transponder, even in Belgium. If you contact Oostende-Brugge's ATC unit prior to submitting a flight plan (stating clearly in the notes that transponder is U/S), and ask them if they would be able to accept your transit for you without transponder.

I have flown without transponder through several class D zones over the last year or so, its never been an issue. Their radar also has primary radar (showing you as a dot without any further information), they occasionally ask you to turn to a particular direction for identification, but they essentially DO see you. You may however, be asked several times what altitude you are at for separation purposes.

Hope this helps!
Alex

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Alex90: you have been luckier than me - only a few weeks ago I was positively refused access to EBOS, precisely on the pretense (sp?) of the lack of an active transponder.

[Dodgy Oscar]

Thanks everybody for your replies. They have been extremely useful!!!

I think I'll plan to coast in somewhere near Calais and then wiggle my way up through Belgium and into the Netherlands. I see that Lille TMA is Class E and extends from 1500' to FL65 in the vicinity of Calais. Am I right to assume that I will be able to fly through the Class E part without a transponder providing I'm in radio contact with Lille?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Jonathan

[Mixed Up]

Am I right to assume that I will be able to fly through the Class E part without a transponder providing I'm in radio contact with Lille?

Despite Lille's initial reluctance ... yes. (My experience ~4 years ago.)

[alex90]

@Jan Olieslagers - I found that calling them on the phone prior to submitting the flight plan helped a great deal. I was only refused once, due to military activity (which I understand is quite common).

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland, if you don't have 8.33khz compatible radio, you may need to ensure that your routing does not require any usage of these frequencies.

Good luck Jonathan, and have an incredible flight - I'd recommend going to Kinderdijk (South East of Rotterdam's airspace) and do a low pass to checkout these stunning windmills.

ps: Lille is fine without transponder, but they may complain a little... They will accept you for a Basic Service.

[BackPacker]

You also may want to check ELT requirements when you come to the Netherlands.

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland, if you don't have 8.33khz compatible radio, you may need to ensure that your routing does not require any usage of these frequencies.

At the moment 8.33 is only used inside controlled airspace (military and civil). In uncontrolled airspace you can still talk to Amsterdam Info and Dutch Mil info on the old 25 kHz frequencies. Also all uncontrolled fields, including EHTE, are still on 25 kHz, for now... So coincidentally your U/S transponder will mean that you will not have to use any 8.33 kHz frequency.

ps: Lille is fine without transponder, but they may complain a little... They will accept you for a Basic Service.

A "Basic Service" is a UK exception to ICAO standard practice. The rest of the world talks about a Flight Information Service. So that's what you should be asking Lille for. (And yes, there is a difference otherwise the UK CAA/NATS would not have made the change a few years ago. Although as far as BS/FIS is concerned, I've never been too worried about those differences.)

But I guess Lille is so fed up with correcting UK pilots that they'll pretend to give you a BS, while actually giving you a FIS.

[Sam Rutherford]

ditto to your comment on the Lille and 'BS' request! :-)

[alex90]

Haha! Well when I am out of the UK I don't request services, they give me what they give me and I take it. I meant that they'll provide you with some service! ;-) very good point though!

[Jan Olieslagers]

I found that calling them on the phone prior to submitting the flight plan helped a great deal.Which is exactly what I did - you are not the first to recommend this, actually it is in the AIP - and got a blank refusal. And yes, military activity is quite common on weekdays but very rare in the weekend; yet my refusal was on Saturday April 22nd.

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland Not really, AFAIK. They do announce frequencies, or rather "channels", that require an 8,33 radio to tune into correctly; however they are not yet using the nearby 8,33-only frequencies so one can tune the corresponding 25 kHz channel and get useable communication. Mind you, I am not recommending to depend on this, ramp checks at Dutch aerodromes have a reputation for rigidity. Planes have been impounded for not carrying an ELT, for example.

@T/S: you still seem to have no intention to clear immigration - up to you, but don't come crying if things go wrong.

[patowalker]

Jan,

It was probably the traffic situation, added to the lack of transponder, which led to the refusal to allow you in.

ULM flights will only be accepted within Oostende CTR if traffic situation permits.
Take-off and landing is only allowed for ULM aircraft complying with the following:


three-axis ULM;
Equipped with transponder;
Equipped with radio able to communicate on VHF;
Able to maintain an airspeed of 80 KIAS MNM.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Yes yes, I know, dear @patowalker, no need to point me to the AIP. Allow me to not further elaborate on what actually happened, I have a feeling there was some friction between various people/services at EBOS on my particular request - well-prepared as it had been.

[patowalker]

Ah, probably someone who doesn't like small aeroplanes then, whether they have a transponder or not. :-)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Perhaps, yes. Or perhaps somebody was overmuch welcoming me for someone else's preferences. It certainly was very disappointing, EBOS had been on my wish list for a very long while because I knew well they'd make an exception - but it isn't anymore now.

[POBJOY]

I would recommend a visit to Midden Zeeland EHMZ as the radio shop and Peter are very helpful.
A call to Vliegwerk Holland is well advised. They also do in house repairs on starters alternators and Mags (whilst you wait if arranged) The euro/£ is not fantastic I know but the quality and speed of work worth it.
PP

[Dodgy Oscar]

Thanks again everybody. :-)

I'll let you know how the trip goes.

Jonathan

[ChickenHouse]

AFAIK there is no way to fly within Amsterdam FIR without Mode-S Transponder since last year. There was some change due to the North Sea heli traffic, I think starting April last year.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Oh yes, there is. Remain below 1200' AMSL and keep clear of the special areas. Unfortunately those last are rather numerous...

[BackPacker]

ChickenHouse, you may be confusing the Amsterdam FIR with the North Sea Area Amsterdam (NSAA) - see AIP ENR 2.2 para 3. The NSAA starts a few miles offshore, and in certain places actually a few dozen miles offshore.

Indeed, the rules for the NSAA are stricter than for the rest of the uncontrolled FIR. One of the rules is that it is a TMZ - Transponder Mandatory Zone all the way down to sea level.

However, outside the NSAA, outside the other TMZs, outside controlled airspace and below 1200', it is still legal to fly a motorized aircraft without a serviceable mode S transponder. (See AIP GEN 1.5 para 4)

[Jan Olieslagers]

That NSAA was unknown to me, BackPacker, thanks for info. Not that I am very likely to ever fly there...

[BackPacker]

I've just been looking at the map. If you assume an U/S transponder, and if you're not going to ask (beg) the BE ATC authorities to transit either the Koksijde CTR or the Oostende CTR, your options are going to be a bit limited.

1. You could go the Southern route, via France. Eg. DVR - Calais at FL60 or so, descend to < 1500' over land, cross into Belgium, avoid all the airspace associated with Koksijde, then proceed via Brugge to COA and enter Dutch airspace <1200'. The part of the Lille TMA around Calais is class E so there appears to be no transponder requirement there (ref Fra AIP ENR 1.6 para 3.1.3).

2. Route to KONAN and from there through the Koksijde CTR, but outside CTR opening hours (mo-fr 9-17, changeable by NOTAM). You'll have to fly < 1500' as the Oostende TMA is class C so requires a Mode S transponder (ref BeLux AIP ENR 1.6 para 1.1). From Koksijde stay low-level and east of the Oostende CTR to COA, to enter Dutch airspace < 1200'.

3. Fly to KONAN as intended, but from there fly to a point just North of the Ostende CTR but South of the Dutch FIR (which is where the NSAA starts at that point). Again, this needs to be done < 1500' due to the transponder requirements in the Oostende TMA. Then DCT COA, descend to 1200' or below, then enter Dutch airspace.

Because of the NSAA you cannot simply route direct from UK into Dutch airspace anywhere, not even at low level. You'll have to go via Belgium, where virtually the whole North Sea coast is controlled airspace down to sea level (except the bit just north of the Oostende CTR), or via France.

Best advice: Get that transponder fixed ASAP. It'll make flight such as this so much easier.

[Privatecaptain]

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland, if you don't have 8.33khz compatible radio, you may need to ensure that your routing does not require any usage of these frequencies.


8.33kHz has only been implemented at the Controlled and Military airfields. Uncontrolled airfields have not yet been converted (at date of this writing).


I'd recommend going to Kinderdijk (South East of Rotterdam's airspace) and do a low pass to checkout these stunning windmills.


However, also in The Netherlands, minimum flight altitude is 500ft. And the Kinderdijk area is a Natural Reserve and Bird Sanctuary (not to mention Natura2000 area), so I would reconsider this low-pass here.

[Privatecaptain]

Best advice: Get that transponder fixed ASAP. It'll make flight such as this so much easier.

And safer.

[alex90]

8.33kHz has only been implemented at the Controlled and Military airfields. Uncontrolled airfields have not yet been converted (at date of this writing).
Hence why I state: routing - not destination! Please do read carefully if you're going to knit-pick.


However, also in The Netherlands, minimum flight altitude is 500ft. And the Kinderdijk area is a Natural Reserve and Bird Sanctuary (not to mention Natura2000 area), so I would reconsider this low-pass here.
By low pass, I meant fly at 500ft which is plenty low enough to enjoy the sights, not be stupid and fly at 30ft, disregarding the law! You'll find that the bird sanctuary is some distance to the south west of the location of the windmills at Kinderdijk and it is actually just south of the simulated forced landing area for Rotterdam (with clearance allowing you down to 100ft agl). Of course, be respectful and don't keep flying over for an hour!! (That's just inconsiderate for the locals!)