i dont believe it!

[memories of px]

seen at the airfield today, on concrete, some guy hand swinging a Stampe, nobody in the cockpit, no chocks, aiming at a line of parked aircraft, how good are those parking brakes?? better than a C152 i hope.

[Small Rodent Driver]

seen at the airfield today, on concrete, some guy hand swinging a Stampe, nobody in the cockpit, no chocks, how good are those parking brakes?? better than a C152 i hope.

I don't believe the Stampe is fitted with a parking brake.

Was the start successful or even a runaway success perhaps?

[Crash one]

Why do I get the feeling that that this "guy" is being regarded as a fool of some kind.
If he was swinging the prop in this fashion, then the chances are he has done it before and might just know what he is doing.
Was it successful?
Did it run away?
Did it run over him?
Did you wait to see if it turned to worms?

[memories of px]

it was a success, it didnt run away, he climbed back in and taxiied off,in my aircraft were two atpl holders, 30,000 hours plus between us, both senior instructors, one a caa panel examiner, both shaking our heads,, its all about risk management, just because you get away with a particular technique doesnt make it the right one.
I once saw a successful swing start on a tiger moth , where the throttles were accidentally left fully open, flipped over and was destroyed.

[Procrastinus]

Did he have a rope attached to a ground stake around the tail wheel, with a slip knot, that could be released once he was in the cockpit?

[SlipSlider]

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/stampe-sv4c-modified-g-bepc-5-april-2009

I was a close witness to the above, which reduced a pristine biplane to a wreck. Scary as hell as it rotated it's way across the airfield on full power, and a sickening feeling when it took off. Fortunately it didn't get far in the air.

.

[Sam Rutherford]

Two sides to every argument:

1. He's done it a million times like that, it's always been fine.
2. It only needs to go wrong once and...

Unless there is some major advantage to doing option 1, putting at least some sort of risk mitigation in place seems more sensible. There's enough risk in aviation without ignoring simple solutions to reduce it (and I should know). We're doing 'very risky' things all the time - but we attempt to reduce that risk as much as practically possible (whilst still doing it!).

[Cloudee]

I hope he was wearing safety glasses, hi vis vest, hard hat and gloves. Can't be too careful with these things you know.

[Crash one]

it was a success, it didnt run away, he climbed back in and taxiied off,in my aircraft were two atpl holders, 30,000 hours plus between us, both senior instructors, one a caa panel examiner, both shaking our heads,, its all about risk management, just because you get away with a particular technique doesnt make it the right one.
I once saw a successful swing start on a tiger moth , where the throttles were accidentally left fully open, flipped over and was destroyed.

If it's all about risk management and this guy managed the risk, then where is the problem?
I think this is more to do with risk perception by the observer, which is far more variable.
A swing start that flipped over with throttles fully open would not be considered a success, nor was the risk managed in my view.

[Crash one]

I took off yesterday, with about ten knots of crosswind straight across the runway from the right.
The farmer was seeding the grass to the left close to the runway.
He stopped to watch me pass.
The tail came up and I swung severely to the left, for a few seconds I was "concerned" to say the least.
With a boot full of right rudder and some right aileron I dragged the left wheel off first and cleared the tractor by forty feet.
We waved.
I do not think I managed the risk very well and I will not repeat that scenario again.

[effortless]

It was the most common practice I remember from my youth. Pretty certain I sat in the Auster at the age of seven while Macey swung it. I think he used to pull the chocks as he climbed in.

[Maoraigh1]

"in my aircraft were two atpl holders, 30,000 hours plus between us, both senior instructors, one a caa panel examiner, both shaking our heads,"

How many of the 30,000 hours were in aircraft which are handswung?

[S-Works]

What's a senior instructor?

[patowalker]

One who has reached old age?

[Chris Martyr]

People who fly Stampes/Moths etc tend to be fairly knowledgeable and experienced pilots.
Had either of our two 30,000hr chaps been that concerned , then surely the best way of dealing with this would've been to walk over and enquire if the pilot in question was aware of what he was doing.
He may well have been a lesser experienced guy who could have benefitted from the OP's superior knowledge .
Or he may have been flying Moths/Stampes for as many years as his observers have been flying.
But they can't answer that ; because instead of making a positive input , one of them decided to put it onto a forum instead !

[2hotwot]

Stampes have brakes

[Crash one]

I find it hard to believe that two ATPL "senior" instructors with 30000 hrs between them have got that far down their careers without noticing that swinging a prop on this type of aircraft is quite normal and does not warrant shaking of heads in disbelief.
It begs the question, what exactly do they think of the general competency of pilots who are not known to be quite so God like as they obviously are?
If I were the Stampe pilot and read this thread I think words would be exchanged.

[S-Works]

I am still trying to work out what a senior instructor is.

[Sam Rutherford]

Free bus travel to-from the airfield.

Come on, obvious! :-)

[alex90]

Haha! Nice one Sam!

[funfly]

Interesting how the 'old school' close ranks when one of their numbers is criticised. However familiarity does breed contempt.

[S-Works]

Interesting how the 'old school' close ranks when one of their numbers is criticised. However familiarity does breed contempt.

I can't quite work out which side is closing ranks?

Speaking as an Instructor and FRE/FE/CRE/TRE as wondering what I needed to become a "senior" Instructor......

[Mariner9]

Sam suggested a free bus pass Bose, which would seem to fit the bill.

You need to add an FBP rating to your FRE/FE/CRE/TRE

[MrAverage]

It is actually a thing bose-x, we have one at our airfield. I think the title is bestowed upon them in some way. I haven't quite yet plucked up the courage to ask him how he got it!

[PDR1]

I can't quite work out which side is closing ranks?

Speaking as an Instructor and FRE/FE/CRE/TRE as wondering what I needed to become a "senior" Instructor......

Is a "Senior instructor" an instructor who only instructs senior citizens?

On the actual incident - according to David Ogilvy (http://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/storage/gamag/jun11/p26-28.pdf) the STampe does indeed have brakes which are too powerful/vicious to be used while taxying and "are intended for parking only".

As I see it the primary concern would be that the throttle might open under vibration, but for all we know this particular aeroplane may have had a throttle lock of some kind (a pin in the throttle quadrant, a physical blanking plate like a U/C ground lock or even just a strap around the throttle from the back). Any of these would adequately mitigate the risk of the throttl;e openning after the start.

The overall risk is still higher than it could be, but whether it is low enough to be tolerable is an individual judgement. It's probably a lower overall risk than commenting on your wife's weight, after all...

:E

PDR

[jonkster]

There is a delightful story about an Auster in the 1950s at Sydney's Bankstown Airport that was handswung with the throttle incorrectly set and no chocks and took off, all by itself, on its first ever solo.

It buzzed the field (narrowly missing the tower at one point) for a while, flying wider and wider circles and slowly gaining altitude.

Bankstown is very near Kingsford Smith, Sydney's international airport so this was quite alarming, the RAAF were called in and dispatched a Wirraway that intercepted it when it started heading out over the sea.

They returned unsuccessfully claiming the machine gun had frozen and couldn't fire. The story I was told was that was the reason given by the crew to waiting journalists on their return to the Richmond RAAF base, but as they were telling this to a reporters, a whole belt load's worth of empty cartridge cases dropped onto the apron while a ground handler was putting it to bed...

Auster 1, RAAF 0

Anyway the Navy then dispatched 2 brand new, state of the art (well to the RAN anyway) Meteors. They had terrible trouble trying to get their speed down to take a decent shot at the little Auster puttering along minding its own business, their stall speed exceeded the Auster's Vne! Anyway by the time they managed to get into a position to try shooting it - their guns had frozen too (apparently) so returned without result.

Auster 1, RAN 0

Finally the Navy dispatched an aging Sea Fury (they were coming to the end of their service but still in use) that successfully shot the poor old thing down over the sea :(

Auster 0, RAN 1 in the final.

Again the story I heard was the Sea Fury pilot subsequently painted a small Auster symbol next to the cockpit as a 'kill'.

True story (cannot vouch for the RAAF actually firing after they claimed not to but even if that bit isn't true, it should be :))

[mary meagher]

At Jack Brown's Seaplane base in Winter Haven Florida your instructor will pull the prop through from the rear while standing ON THE FLOAT.

If you were standing in front of the Cub you would be waist deep in the lake.
(which is frequented by alligators and very nasty snakes).

[shorehamite]

the term senior is relative, how old are people in senior school? why should senior instructor imply senior citizen?
anyway the thread seems to be about risk management, surely chocks as belt and braces should have been considered, perhaps the pilot was having a senior citizen moment!

[S-Works]

It is actually a thing bose-x, we have one at our airfield. I think the title is bestowed upon them in some way. I haven't quite yet plucked up the courage to ask him how he got it!


Rubbish. I am Head of Training for two ATO and have never heard of such a qualification. A self appointed title maybe.

In fact I am a President Instructor. :p

[Sam Rutherford]

And you fly Bose Force One...

[Crash one]

Perhaps the clue is in the thread title. Victor Meldrew and all that?
Although anyone who uses lower case "i" for the first person can't be that old.

[treadigraph]

Saw a runaway Beagle Pup about thirty years ago - started in the proper manner by the key, two people in the cockpit.

Presumably the throttle was fairly wide open and the brakes were off; it shot forward, wingtip clipped a petrol pump (or something similar) on the corner of a hangar which spun it round the pump and into the side of the hangar. It was very briefly heading my way and about thirty feet way... ulp!

Right wing clearly wrinkled, not sure about the prop and engine. I believe it was a couple of mechanics who were intending to just taxy it elsewhere on the airfield.

[shorehamite]

heres a good link to threat and error management - https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Threat_Management_Training_(OGHFA_BN)
as a previous member pointed out risk is perceived differently by different people, if you were watching from the cafe, it looks low risk, but if you owned one of the parked aircraft it was pointing at it would be high risk!
as the previous posts have shown, ground accidents happen and will continue to do so, but we have to reduce risk otherwise insurance costs will continue to rise for us all.

[PDR1]

In fact I am a President Instructor. :p

Well that explains the fake news...

:E:E:E

PDR

[piperboy84]

George Carlin on adding extra words and titles, Captain v Pilot


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46fOtLfYC4Q

[Parson]

Bose - actually "senior" instructors. Even more bizarre.

[funfly]

One sign of a 'senior' instructor is that they wear white 'pilot's' shirts with black trousers and always have four stripes. I do remember one or two.

I personally haven't flown for a number of years now so am becoming very knowledgable about all matters aviation. I therefore can often be found offering my vaste knowledge of aviation relation matters. I maybe not the only pprune poster in this position :rolleyes:

[PDR1]

Ah - you mean like the way I am required to give long and aggressive lectures to people on the absolute eviles of smoking, having myself given up WELL over a year ago...

:hmm::hmm:

PDR

[Forfoxake]

Obviously I do not know the circumstances in this particular case, but I always remember the gist of what Bob Grimstead said many years ago about prop-swinging on you own. His wise words go something like:
1) Tie the stick back and apply handbrake if there is one.
2) Set and lock the throttle at the appropriate setting.
3) Chock the wheels.
4) Tie the tail to something solid with a method of releasing it when in the cockpit after start.
5) Switch the fuel OFF. (The engine will normally run more than long enough for you to get round and switch the fuel on again after a successful start. Try it. You will be surprised how long your engine will run particularly at low revs with the fuel switched off!)

Only then swing the prop using the other normal precautions. You cannot be too careful imho.

PS In single seaters like the Turbulent, D5, Colibri etc, stand behind the prop, in front of the wing with one hand on the switches or throttle.

PPS Obviously, point the plane away from other people, aircraft or solid obstructions!

[Jim59]

I am still trying to work out what a senior instructor is.

Isn't it an FI(S) under EASA rules?

[S-Works]

Isn't it an FI(S) under EASA rules?

Ha!! Brilliant!

[MrAverage]

One of these should be able to define the breed:
SeniorInstructorsForum2017.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2108&stc=1&d=1492766800)

[memories of px]

I was fortunate enough, when he was a alive, to do a few instructor renewals with the late great Ron Campbell, i would class him as Senior, nothing to do with his age.
And one of those senior instructors in the pic was indeed in the my aircraft shaking their head!

[Crash one]

And one of those senior instructors in the pic was indeed in the my aircraft shaking their head!


If you feel strongly about the incident, why don't you have a word with the pilot in question?
He may even be more senior than you think.

[memories of px]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeTM-paAXCo

i think youre getting the word senior confused with the word stupid.

He may even be more stupid than you think.

[Forfoxake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeTM-paAXCo

Funny at first then terrifying.

As I wrote before, you cannot be too careful when prop-swinging on your own (or with someone inexperienced in the aeroplane).

[Crash one]

Funny at first then terrifying.

As I wrote before, you cannot be too careful when prop-swinging on your own (or with someone inexperienced in the aeroplane).

I think if you read the beginning of the thread you may note that this hand start was perfectly successful, the pilot taxied away perfectly safely afterward.

[Crash one]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeTM-paAXCo

i think youre getting the word senior confused with the word stupid.

He may even be more stupid than you think.

I actually doubt it. But the fact that you, as a "senior" instructor, did not consider it worthwhile finding out before condemning him on a public forum seems more in line with stupidity.

[Above The Clouds]

Probably from British Airways, have you ever noticed during the Captains blurb to the pax he is nearly always accompanied by Senior First Officer blogs, WTF is a senior F/O.

[shorehamite]

I agree with memories of PX, I think that procedure constitutes filing an MOR, under the heading of Reportable Occurrence. and ATC, i think you'll find BA is an equal opportunities employer, not all captains are he!

[Crash one]

What happened to the expression in aviation,
"Never assume, always check".
Perhaps the perpetrator of this apparently heinous crime had already done that.
Why did the critical observers not do the same?

[Mechta]

In Ann Welch's book, 'Accidents Happen', she described an incident in which a glider tug took off, with a glider on the back, neither of which had anyone aboard.

As I recall, the glider was hooked onto the tug, which then had starting problems. The tug pilot went to the hangar for tools, and was away some time. The glider pilot became bored waiting and got out. The tug pilot came back, tinkered with the engine and hand swung the prop. Needless to setting the throttle setting was high, so the tug pilot leapt out of the way as the tug burst into life, and then watched the pair disappear off down the field and briefly into the air.

Multiple lumps of Swiss cheese all in a row...

[wiggy]

have you ever noticed during the Captains blurb to the pax he is nearly always accompanied by Senior First Officer blogs, WTF is a senior F/O.

BA ( and many other airlines) have "Senior First Officer" as a specific "rank"/job title/job description. FWIW pilots start off (in BA at least) as a "two ringer", i.e. a "First officer" and then at some point get promoted up to a three ringer and become "Senior First Officers"...

Anyhow, no idea about "senior instructor".......I was an A2 at CFS but didn't hang around long enough to get senior.......

[NudgingSteel]

Probably from British Airways, have you ever noticed during the Captains blurb to the pax he is nearly always accompanied by Senior First Officer blogs, WTF is a senior F/O.

Many years ago, whilst on a fam flight [not BA] with a F/O friend of mine, the captain's PA included the "senior first officer" bit. I asked my friend what was the difference between a first officer and a senior first officer.

His reply? "Passenger reassurance!"

Still not sure if he was kidding me or not...

[tmmorris]

SFO is a BA 'rank', promotion after X years at the company. Pretty much all longhaul FOs are SFOs, shorthaul are FOs. Three stripes instead of two.

[eckhard]

When you join BA you are a 'First Officer' with two stripes.
After four years you are promoted to 'Senior First Officer' and get three stripes.
That's it until you make Captain with four stripes.

There is no difference between SH and LH. Plenty of LH two-stripers and plenty of SH three-stripers.

You could go straight from two to four stripes if you bid successfully for an unpopular command during your first four years.

There is also a 'seven year interview' where they need to see that you've actually got an unfrozen ATPL so that you can go to pay point eight. Until you achieve it, you're stuck on pay point seven. This only applies (obviously) to Senior First Officers.

There used to be some sort of 'cap' on LH SFOs' pay (16 years?) if they hadn't bid for a SH command by that point but that may have gone now.

The whole structure is rooted in history and assumes a bright-eyed 20-year-old joining straight out of Hamble. It's a bit archaic when you're dealing with DEPs who may have been training captains in a previous life. (Who, moi?)

BTW, the BMI merger (take-over?) saw many of their FOs keep their three stripes. Good for them!

[Chris Martyr]

Is there such a rank as a Junior/Senior Thread Drifter....?

[jonkster]

Is there such a rank as a Junior/Senior Thread Drifter....?

A junior first officer is allowed to hand swing a Stampe, whilst under the supervision of a senior FO or higher who has been trained in chocking.

A senior FO who has been trained and endorsed in chocking is allowed to hand swing a Stampe, unsupervised.

An instructor is capable of training and endorsing pilots to chock a Stampe.

A senior Instructor is capable of telling everyone how Stampes were so much harder to swing in their day when they hadn't invented chocks yet.

A Stampe is an aircraft with two wings.

A senior Stampe is also known as a triplane.

A Captain wears 4 stripes and pronounces chocks as chockies and thinks chockies these days are not as tasty as when they were an FO.

[memories of px]

further to my last, i have discovered that its the airfield that will not allow the group to keep a set of chocks down at the pumps, its a HEALTH and SAFETY issue!!, they are a trip hazard!, on the balance of probability, i would have thought it less hazardous for someone to trip over a chock than get mown down by a runaway aircraft, but what do i know!

[alex90]

further to my last, i have discovered that its the airfield that will not allow the group to keep a set of chocks down at the pumps, its a HEALTH and SAFETY issue!!, they are a trip hazard!, on the balance of probability, i would have thought it less hazardous for someone to trip over a chock than get mown down by a runaway aircraft, but what do i know!

Wait..... seriously?!?? That is a joke isn't it?

Even if you're not allowed to keep a set of "chockies" at the pump, SURELY one can plan ahead and bring their own set with them when going to the pump?

[9 lives]

its a HEALTH and SAFETY issue!!, they are a trip hazard!

Hmmm, What about shoelaces, are they allowed? They could be untied, and a trip hazard. Is there a specified knot to be used, if shoelaces are permitted?

I guess that everyone is wearing fireproof high vis vest now, so the next "risk" must be addressed.

[mikehallam]

It's all darned obvious common sense really.........



[i.e. Keep the chocks, but ban running all a/c engines......anywhere !!]

miketongueincheekyhallam