Is UK ATC Creaking at the seams?

[Bally Heck]

I saw this report on ITN news tonight. I fear it is not journalistic licence (in general), as the CAA admit the existence of the reports.---------------

A worrying report suggests Britain's air traffic controllers have such an excessive workload that safety is being badly affected.

The reports have surfaced as millions prepare to take off on their summer holidays. The reports come from the National Air Traffic Control Centre at Swanwick in Hampshire which controls one of the busiest air-spaces in the world . Leaked internal documents contain evidence of increased delays and suspicion of near misses.

David Luxton of the air traffic controllers union told ITV News that on this evidence passengers are facing a bleak summer: "During the summer period I fear that delays are likely to get worse because of the shortage of air traffic controllers and the pressure on the system at the present time."

The air safety documents have been leaked to the magazine Computer Weekly. They show that the number of staff warning of potentially dangerous work overload in the first half of this year reached 44.

The internal reports show that in the last week of June flight delays totalled around 170,000 minutes. That is the equivalent of sixteen days.

The documents also reveal concern over near misses. In just one week of June four were suspected. It's thought two British Airways jets were brought close to collision carrying 350 passengers.

It is believed to have happened after the failure of a piece of safety equipment at Swanwick.

National Air Traffic Services said the use of that equipment had now been suspended.

Passenger groups are concerned. Bob Tolliday of the Consumers' Association told ITV news: "Already we've seen a number of strikes on the Continent. There's concern about the safety aspects of air traffic control around Europe and the figures that have been produced now seem to indicate that the trend is upwards".

Officials in charge of air traffic control have denied that safety has been compromised and said that the latest reports have yet to be fully investigated. --------------------

Well, The last paragraph strikes fear into me. Given the events of the last week in Switzerland. I have great respect for the ATC people in the UK. We all know that personal overload is a real and dangerous thing.

Who is going to be the first to die if this is not sorted out?

[theblipdriver]

Officials in charge of air traffic control have denied that safety has been compromised and said that the latest reports have yet to be fully investigated. --------------------

Well, The last paragraph strikes fear into me. Given the events of the last week in Switzerland. I have great respect for the ATC people in the UK. We all know that personal overload is a real and dangerous thing.

agree partially - if you are understaffed, you have to close sectors and reduce the rate. so, you "just" have more delays, but no safety issues. it gets dangerous if you are pushing up the rates to AVOID excessive delays. you have to stand the pressure from the airlines.
what happened in LSAZ was a whole chain of thing's which shouldn't have happened. as the controller had only 5 acft on freq, I think it would be wrong to blame staff shortage of this midair. in my opinion, it was a whole load of relatively small "bad lucks" and a pilot not following a RA, the latter one beeing the biggest link in the chain. i'm just wondering when and where the next midair will happen. and please note - i'm asking "when and where", and not "if"! :-(

cheers,

[M.Mouse]

Always impressed by the quality and standards of UK ATC having personally experienced ATC all over the world. Although I have recently been wondering whether by running 2.5 NM spacing at LHR and handling as much traffic as is physically possible they have made a rod for their own backs.

A little less willingness to be so accommodating might just have made somebody face the issues which are causing the problems - too many aeroplanes and too little airspace capacity.

Just a thought.

[skid]

dont know about overwork, but they seem to have some sort of ongoing comms problems, just come back from LGZA this pm and crossing london there were probs with 2 frequencies which needed the controller to call for radio checks and a change of frequency. Also I've noticed that we've been asked for radio checks a lot more than normal around the Salco are. Maybe just some teething probs with the new kit?

[charterguy]

Perhaps APD should be raised to GBP 75.00. That would soon put the brakes on the low cost sector and free up some capacity in the system. If the LCAs up their fleets by another 200 aircraft (as they keep telling us) in the near future, how is ATC supposed to cope ? :confused:

[Wedge]

The situation over Britain's crowded skies is worrying indeed. There have been several cases the past few years when only the last chink in the armoury saved us from a mid-air collision (for example the fact that it was VMC when one 757 was directed to descend into another over Biggin a couple of years ago).

For some time I have seen it as not a case of if but when there is a serious mid-air in UK airspace, and I sincerely hope I am wrong about that.

The problems at Swanwick are not helping, but the problems would probably have been worse if West Drayton was still in use.

Do we really have to wait for the 'nightmare scenario' that we saw in Germany last week before people sit up and take notice?

"Officials in charge of air traffic control have denied that safety has been compromised ". Safety is compromised every time there is a loss of separation let alone a serious airprox incident.

We are asking too much of our controllers, they do a brilliant job, but every day that job becomes more and more difficult.

On the other hand, the stats show a 'record' low in airprox incidents last year, but does this include all incidents including low risk?

[Vlad the Impaler]

WEDGE,
West Drayton is still very much in use. Only our en-route friends are at the fareham sanitorium whilst the spectacularly Understaffed and overworked Terminal Control remains in sunny WD. The delays publicised in recent days are no doubt real and don't expect things to improve in the near future. Despite the chronic staff shortages TC continues to shift the metal at the fastest and SAFEST rate we can manage. Yes, sometimes it gets too busy and using the "staff shortage" message for flow control restrictions does get the attention of those upstairs but the problem has been brewing for years and as you can imagine, Valid controllers do not grow on trees. The safety record of UK ATC is a testament to the professionalism of our ATCO's who continue to do a world class job in a complex environment where at times the airspace and controller's are pushed to the limits of their capacity. The last thing any of us want to see is a disaster in the UK but things must change with regard to staffing levels or one day, one of us will come unstuck. :mad:

[Wedge]

Thanks for putting me right on West Drayton Vlad. Worrying tough it is that a UK controller concurs that the present situation is an accident waiting to happen.

[BEXIL160]

and there you have it folks....

It takes between 2.5 and 3 years to train someone to be a valid in the LTCC (West Drayton) or LACC (Swanwick) environments.

At present retirements FAR outstrip new validations, and this situation will not change for some YEARS. The pressure on the OPERATIONAL staff is immense, whilst the management just deny there is a problem or at best are economical with truth as regards to actual controller numbers. (they like to count non valid, non operational people in to get the numbers up)

Don't believe me? Check the Eurocontrol daily AFTM news. Staff shortages feature virtually EVERY day on EGTT delays.

Guess what? Controller morale is at rock bottom. Most popular shareware amongst us is a little program that calculates your actual working days until retirement. Me, I used to contribute a lot, both here and at NATS.... like many, I can't be bothered anymore. I still do the best job I can when at the radar, but as for anything over and above that, forget it, I'd rather go fishing. NATS management DO NOT CARE, so why should I?

Sad, isn't it, after 20 odd years but believe me, fishing is less stressful, and you don't have to listen to some management pillock lying to all and sundry and living off your efforts.

Gone fishin'

BEX

[Captain Slack-Bladder]

Is UK ATC Creaking at the seams?

All of us who have used it for years have to say yes to this one. Just listen to the guys issuing a constant stream of instructions with no pause in-between to reflect on what they’ve just said and pick up the mistakes when they didn’t quite say what they intended. In the last five years I’ve personally suffered twice from this and thankfully luck was with us – no rending of metal and bodies.

I would say we have some of the best, if not the best controllers in the world. They are able, intelligent and motivated. What I fear for is the future, when a privatised ATC drives down wages and days off so that they can only recruit second or third rate controllers. If our new ATC is going to be run with the flare and ability that characterises modern administration in Britain, anyone living under controlled airspace is going to need more than a tin hat.

[foo fighting]

Firstly many thanks for all the generous comments about our work in the uk.

Yes, UK ATC is creaking at the seams.

Reason, nowhere near enough controllers to bolster the shrinking, disillusioned and undervalued numbers that currently sit in some of the hottest atc seats on the planet.

All the 'current' problems have been long predicted by many but there has been little if any effort made by those with the power to stave off the issues which are now putting atc and NATS in the news every other day.

I've been a controller in the Lon.TMA for about 5 years now and fings ain't wot dey used to be. Goodwill from the controllers (which has carried through massive sector increases and changes for free) has run out.

Despite what many outside atc and many above the likes of me may think, if the controllers are not on board then the ship will start to drift and sink. It is plainly obvious that process is well under way.

I think that the day to day job of controlling will still be done in the professional and efficient manner that we have all trained and qualified to operate in but - there just isn't enough of us and those remaining are losing interest through an ever increasing and more complex workload with nothing appealing on the horizon.

[jocko0102]

One of the biggest problems as the massive increase in the no frills airlines.The expansion has come mostly at airports that were either quiet or on their knees so they were and are happy to let them add more and more flights.The problem is there is a lack of capacity once they are airborne(be it airspace or controllers)and that is where the strain is.
Serious management of this problem is required now or pay the penalty!

[Bally Heck]

So what can we do to remedy this situation? It is surely only a matter of time before disaster strikes. I think we can rest assured that the situation will consequently improve then.

That however is an unthinkable option. Anyone got any ideas how to kick the arses that matter before someone finds themselves dead.:eek:

Just thought. Does anyone know the email addresses of the people who make these decisions. transport secretaries, NATS executives etc. Perhaps we could organise a mass PPRuNe lobbying from ATC'ers and pilots.

[Whalerider]

What amazes me is, that no journo' has actually asked - not that NATS would give him the correct answer - of just how many ATCOs have deserted since privatisation ?!? The way things are going there will be many more following ! It is the guys and gals at the airports who suffer the brunt of pilot's frustration.

I get the impression Swanwick was opened as a political gesture - as it was obvious there were not enough staff.

To the RJ100 crew who sat for over an hour to go to Newcastle, all I can say is I'm embarassed - though on this occasion his company ops were the main cause of the problem.

Will things get better in the next month or so ? Unfortunately I doubt it !

[The Crimson Fruitbat]

as the controller had only 5 acft on freq, I think it would be wrong to blame staff shortage of this midair. in my opinion, it was a whole load of relatively small "bad lucks" and a pilot not following a RA,

Well there you have it .....:rolleyes:

[zkdli]

Of course it is, nerc, the new all singing, all dancing, wonder drug needs one third more controllers to work than the old centre. Management knew this and tried for god knows how long to get the staff - THEY FAILED, we now have a state of the art centre that has to close profitable sectors at night because of lack of staff, aircraft(ej145's) routing from egcc to eham at fl190 because of staff shortages and i have seen on one night shift an aircraft descend from the statosphere to fl190 to get around flow restrictions through dty airspace then climb again (this one was going to greece!!! )

TC is now v short staffed and getting shorter!, this summer don't expect to get anywhere in a hurry, what extra capacity we had is now being used to take all the a/c that have been level capped.
But the new pay deal will sort out our problems, I can see all of us rushing into work to grab that overtime and sell our leave to help our management out of this black hole:D :D :D

[Lieutenant Dan]

There's no getting around it. This is the way things are, and will be, for a long time to come.

We keep hearing about air traffic doubling by 2020. Hmmm...

Better get those A380's on the EGLL-EGPF route. But, ah, what level do you reckon you can make by Trent?:p

[Standard Noise]

I'll have to add my tuppen'orth here.

I was one of those kicked out of NATS in the mid-nineties because I was "not up to the required standard", one of many on my course. Of those of us with usable ratings (I have 5) who got the boot, the majority are still in this industry due to the fact that non-NATS airfields saw the potential in us. One or two who became ATSA's were sent to airfields at a later date and are now valid ATCO's.

The training system at LATCC was based around the principle of the London buses ie never worry if the student doesn't make it, there'll be another two along in a minute. Now, the "training " management are reaping what they sowed a few years back - a shortage of staff caused by incompetant management and an unforgiving training system.

A few months ago, I was honoured to be present at Sarah & Alan Carey's wedding bash in Salisbury, and spoke to many people from both my own and other courses, all of whom encouraged me to re-apply to NATS. After some lengthy thought, I can honestly say that nothing in the world would be more unappealing than signing myself back into the asylum! If I do move again, it will be to another non-NATS regional like wot I am at now.

To all at Swanick, I know you are all doing a demanding job under difficult circumstances. Remember this, don't let the b***ard management get to you.

Good luck to you all (especially 83 course)!

[twistedenginestarter]

This all goes back half a century to when the UK invented the answer to all these problems and the Americans said we couldn't use it because they wanted to make a load of money off their vastly inferior VOR technology.

That invention was Decca (chorus of Rule Britannia) and if we had area navigation today there would be no air congestion and there wouldn't have been a mid-air over Germany.

Current ATC using airways and cb radio is astonshingly crude. It's only benefit is it would save the world if Aliens ever arrived. They'd take one look and decide we were too primitive to bother invading...:D :cool: :p

[Max Angle]

That invention was Decca (chorus of Rule Britannia) and if we had area navigation today there would be no air congestion and there wouldn't have been a mid-air over Germany.

Well about 90% of us on the airways DO have area nav. is just that the ATC systems in Europe (UK included) and the people who run them are stuck in the dark ages of the point to point airway navigation system that was set up after the war. The recent introduction of RVSM just about says it all. Almost every airliner in the sky can fly a route to within a few metres of the planned track, you could fly down a route three abreast with 2-3 miles separating you in perfect safety so what do the genius planners who run ATC do?. Reduce the vertical separation and run all the aircraft towards each other at a 1000mph with 300 metres between them, bloody fantastic idea guys!.

Just about every airliner can now arrive at point in space at a specific hieght, speed and TIME to a very high degree of precision if it gets airbourne at the right time. So in the 21st century what do we do?. We get airbourne having waited 40 minutes for a slot, fly 20-30 minutes down the road to LHR and then go into the hold for 20 minutes, great system, very well thought out!. Apart from waste of time and fuel it costs about £50 a minute to keep a medium size airliner in the sky and we are paying for this service as well.

We need an intergrated ATC system in Europe that is based not just on modern technology but on modern ideas as well. Come on you ATC chiefs and politcal types, get your act together.

[Ayr-Rage]

As a controller who is often working on one of the most regulated sectors in the UK (Talla,Central Scotland), I agree that we need more airspace.
However, getting the extra will be like getting blood out of a stone whilst Airspace Policy pander to the needs of the military.
Has anyone worked out exactly how much of the UK FIR/UIR is actually available to civil aircraft? I think we would all be shocked as to how little we actually have.
Tony Blair could win a lot of aviation votes if he gave us the airspace we need, and it wouldn't cost him a penny.....

[Ichabod]

I have been a validated controller at 'a busy' airport in London for over 10 years. During that time I have seen morale drop steadily. For several years we have been operating with less staff than the agreed 'Operational Requirement' to the frustration of all concerned (on occasions certain positions cannot be opened due to lack of staff). The rate at which we have been able to validate new controllers has not been able to outpace the loss, and this is reflected across units, especially as we are probably 'top heavy' age wise. As a result more and more often we are working close to our limits mentally.
(To reassure you guys/girls at the sharp end, when we are 'plugged in' we give you 100%, something we give the company less, and less.) :(

[411A]

DECCA...worked good in the 1960's (did a trial in California...circa 1968...not bad at all).

ATC services in the UK today...can be compared to Spain in the 1980's...ie: NOT good, way behind the times.
Sorry to say the "best"...is NOT the best anymore.
Second fiddle comes to mind.

[Iron City]

Regardless of the electronics used (VOR, DECCA, INS, GPS, sun moon and stars) for navigation, computers and sexy radios (got Dolby in that?) the bottom line is the world is using an air traffic control system methodology that has evolved from the Allied WW II methods. With every new multi billions investment in radars and computers we get another 5% or so marginal improvement in capacity and reliability. What will have to happen is a fundamental change in how business is done, a quantum leap in the capacity and capability of humans to hurl aircraft around the sky from point A to point B.


Goodness knows what that quantum leap will be, what the technology will be or how it will be implemented but it will be necessary in a few years unless everybody wants to put a few more billions down the old drain to get another marginal improvement.

Nobody seems to have enough controllers in the high traffic parts ofthe world and all the organizations (government, private and whatever the UK has that combines the worst of public and private) treat staff like animals or worse. Because it takes some degree of vision, knowledge and initiative plus bags of cash to do even new versions of the same old systems properly it is difficult and risky, and nobody likes that. New "management structures", "finance schemes" etc are not going to be the complete solution, though they are part because the management system and people we have can obviously only do so much and we got to have finance, but there needs to be some fundamental change in how air traffic is managed and organized.

(adjusts glasses, clears throat, climbs down from soap box)

[M.Mouse]

In your infinite wisdom 411A who might be the best then?

[411A]

Best, M. Mouse?

IMHO, depends on the geographic area.

Asia.... Japan.
S.America.. no commet, have not flown there much.
Africa... S. Africa (the rest, forget it)
M. East... UAE
N. America.. USA
Europe... Netherlands, Germany.

Would be remiss if I did not mention the UK. Considering the rather small geographic area, multitude of military areas, staff shortages, etc...they probably do the best they can, under the circumstances. It takes proper funding to have adequate ATC services, and it would appear that the UK is trying to get blood out of a turnip.

[Goldfinger]

Echoing Standard Noise, i have also been through the ATC training mill and have to agree that managements view was that there was a constant stream of willing candidates who would more than supplement a very top heavy group of employees. Unfortunately, through both Approach and Area there were many trainees who were binned, without much regard as to whether they could be re-trained. Instead of pointing those trainees in the right direction it was felt that they ought to be cut-loose from the company.....the amount of money that has been wasted would surely make even a few Enron managers wince. At the time i did training there was at least a 50% failure rate (1990's). This would be utterly unacceptable in many commercial businesses. As NATS made a great deal of effort in selecting its trainees, it did strike me as somewhat blinkered to not scrutinise why the trainees failed.

For those of us flying in the UK's sardine-can airspace, I can only see delays getting worse and worse. With fewer and fewer controllers coming on-line there will come a point before we see aeronautical gridlock.

To those out there controlling, you do a marvellous job in very strained circumstances. Well done. Wouldn't it be nice to build an extra airport in the South East.....but where will all the extra staff and infrastructure services come from ??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[canberra]

i noticed someone having a go at the military! ever flown at 450 kts and done a turn at that speed, how much airspace do you think youll need to turn in? as for civil atc lacking staff , well why not use the military? and does it really need 2-3 years to train a controller at latcc or swanick? why do the military take a much shorter time? i could go on asking these questions but i wont, i'll finish by saying that in my opinion civil atc have got to stop acting like prima donnas!

[160to4DME]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Not for a long time have I laughed so much..............

What an anachronism........a Pilot calling an ATCO a prima donna!

Keep 'em coming Canberra

160

"Get me a blank blue, and I don't mean that military controller"

[Over+Out]

I once saw a loss of separation near BNN because a Canberra pilot could not maintain his level in a turn!

[Numpo-Nigit]

I'm sure that canberra is delighted to be referred to as a pilot. In truth, I think you'll find he is an unemployed ex-AC2 who was a small cog in the RCC many years ago!!!

[Lieutenant Dan]

No one will put cash into ATC coz there's no direct cash return.

And who's gonna stump up cash for something that'll also benefit your competitors? Nah, squeeze what you can out of the system as it is. Sooner or later someone else'll decide to do something about it.

But it's not gonna be President Blair.

[D.Gardener]

The answer to me is clear, we have to develope and refine TCAS. We have guidance computors capable of intercepting other missiles in flight how difficult can it be to simply get them to give us a thousand feet vertical and 5 miles horizontal using all levels and and parts of levels, with global nav going the shortist distance between to points.

Give the navigation and the seperation responsibility back to the pilots. If we Know where the other traffic is we can see and avoid with alot of help from mode S and enhanced TCAS with on board conflict resolution working on multiple targets at ranges over 200 miles away.

Terminal traffic can be sequenced by transponder interrogation of other traffic and using distances from touchdown to sort out your position in the que, maybe even giving you speed control 300 miles away in order to facillitate your arrival without holding.
Far from controllers flying the aircraft we we should be doing the controlling.

We would still need them for ground control and to tell us if and when the runway is clear.:) :) :)

[jocko0102]

CHUFFING NORA!!!

If you want modern technology to be the future and help move aircraft around the sky then leave it to the computers NOT PILOTS.

In an ideal world you could fly from A to B without being weaved around the sky avoiding other aircraft as you went but until more airspace is given to civilian use and money is invested you are going to suffer indefinately.

Remember most controllers do a fantastic job with the **** they have available to them but until management and governments listen to the people who know i.e controllers,pilots,engineers etc
then continue to enjoy the multiple heading changes,the delays,the capping etc you all know stuff.

Maybe a fund to eliminate all undesireables from aviation is something we should look into.
On the list in no particular order:

1. Bean Counters
2. Management
3. Politicians

[eyeinthesky]

I feel that I must comment upon the couple of posts which have bemoaned the training system at LACC/LTCC. Yes it does take an extraordinary amount of time to get through the training process and the reasons for this are several. To name a few.

1) There is a backlog of trainees.
2) Most trainees are taking upwards of 300 hrs to validate.
3) The maintenance of safety while training is not guaranteed at LACC at present, so no ab-initios are being trained.

The 'chopping' of a trainee is not something we take lightly. Indeed, we will often perservere with someone far longer than an airline or the military might do to see whether they can actually make the step up to the required grade. It is my understanding of military aircrew training, for example, that if you fail to make the grade then you are fairly sharply terminated. Compare that with a recent case at LATCC:

Ab-initio trainee does the usual wings training and then gets almost 400 hours of radar training, eventually having the training stopped as it is considered they will not make the grade at LATCC, but might well at another, not so busy, unit. After a period of deliberation and circular argument during which other units say they cannot accept any new trainees (even those who might validate quicker than a normal ab-initio because they have a lot of radar experience), the trainee is returned to LACC for another go on the same sectors as they recently failed!!!!:eek: This training slot then blocks somebody else who might sail through. This cannot be good for the trainee concerned, and suggests that the judgement of the OJTIs is flawed, since their assessment as to this person's capability (as seen in a VERY long training period) is now ignored. What if they are right, and this trainee does OK on the day and squeaks through a board, only to weld two together soon thereafter because of a basic lack of awareness which had been highlighted during the first training period? Corporate or personal liability issues on this are horrendous!

Anyway, the point is that at LACC we do our very best to get people through as quickly as possible, but the safety must come first. This takes time, and may seem harsh to those who have had the axe fall at LATCC only to make it at another unit, but that's the way it is.

With regard to canberra's post: hardly worth comment, other than to say that it may not take long to train mil controllers, but they still need two of them to handle ONE track crossing the civil airspace where two people handle 35+ tracks an HOUR. The fuss they make about it has to be heard to be believed as well!W:D ;)

[D.Gardener]

Jocko,

I would leave it to the technology not the pilots. Whats the difference between an ATC controller looking at his computor and telling pilots which way to go and a pilot being told by an on board computor and telling him or her there best route through the traffic.
I will tell you, The on board computor only has to look ahead and deal with his own aircraft and those that conflict. An Atc computor has to look at the whole area and work with multiple contacts.

De-restrict us, get rid of airways arrivals and departures, VOR's and flight levels and suddenly the sky's will become alot less crowded. How often do you see other traffic when your flying on a random track? compare that to flogging down an airway.
I think we are only given slots so we can all be in the same place at the same time and there by keep alive the thinking that the sky's are over crowded.

To me Controllers are the management and I agree with you.

Give me the tools and I will do the Job with the help of TECHNOLOGY;) :) :)

[Tapster]

D Gardener

Think about it. Turn round time at airports would be about 3 weeks to get rid of the smell of vomit, jobbies and the like from the SLF behind you.

Taps.:(

[Iron City]

So there it is sports fans. One school of thought says give me the neat tools of TCAS, ADS, FIS, TIS, etc etc etc and get rid of the airways and fixes and stuff and let me take care of it. I think it is called VFR in most places. Though it is appealing in many ways and possibly right, at least somewhat, there are some problems with it:

1. If the goal is to reduce delays you should probably look at where the delays are. In the US they are between the rwy turnoff and the gate and then the gate and the hold short line on the outbound leg. All the sexy avionics in the world do not help if there are 30 a/c trying to use 20 gates and if you are number 7 for t/o .

2. Your faith in technology is touching, and a heartworming testiment to the engineers. Who are run by managers. Who are funded by politicians. And what you are talking about is taking a Swanwick worth of capability and putting in in the airplane's itty bitty (relatively speaking) avionics bays.

3. And who buys all these black boxes and standardizes them so they work together? The airlines that are cutting back to smaller bags of peanuts to save 50p a flight a seat?


Training of ATCOs has always seemed an amazing process to me. After classroom learning they are put onto a real or a canned simulation of a real sector and the complexity gradually ratchetted up in a coherent manner. It amazed me to find out that in the US the big training asset in the ARTCC is the dynamic simulation, which turns out to be a recording run through the real consoles in the back room if there is computer capacity available and any extra functional consoles. This would be like doing airline pilot training by running a classroom segment then climbing into 737s without dual controls but an instructor in the right seat and starting by taxiing faster and faster until you take off then go from there. Not to use the training technologies available today and an organized curriculium is an unforgivable waste of labor and money.

Before one gets too down on politicians (he grits his teeth) remember that if you get the public money it must come through the people the public has elected (God help them) to allocate it.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Today on BBC Radio4's "You and Yours" there was a discussion of this topic with ATCOs, NATS management and Flight's very own DL. If you're quick, you can listen to it on the web at You and Yours (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/rams/youandyours.ram) (it will change at 12:00 on 19th July to a later edition) - the slot starts at about 24m30s into the programme.

Gist of it was that there is a problem, safety is never compromised but throughput occasionally is. Some support for more euro centralisation.

It sounded fairly sensible to me, but I'm only SLF. No credit given to PPRUNE!

Pax Vobiscum

[DistantRumble]

We can see hard data from

http://www.eurocontrol.be/dgs/activities/coda/en/menu.html?s2

Sorry that links terrible..


Go to

http://www.eurocontrol.be click on what's new
and look at the June stats report

its a 515K PDF download
exactly the UK contributions Europe-wide.....


Judge for yourself.

[MacDoris]

Just a thought what happens when the all singing and dancing kit in the aircraft packs up when there is some kind of problem, you need a priority approach and ATC have no idea what anyone is doing any more?

[twistedenginestarter]

Just a thought what happens when the all singing and dancing kit in the aircraft packs up when there is some kind of problem, you need a priority approach and ATC have no idea what anyone is doing any more?

You clearly need ATC in control (and in control of whatever computers are managing flight paths) but not wrestling with the unneccessary task of maintaining separation. Nor playing an artificial game of not touching the sides of airways. Nor trying to pass information intended for computers (FMCs and autopilots) in the bizarre format of human speech.

Automation of the en-route phase should not be bundled with the problems of terminal area control, which is much more subtle as there are real capacity constraints rather than the artificial ones imposed by controlled airspace limits.

[NERC Dweller]

I would like to add a word of caution here.

No matter what we do to test and build ATC systems they will fail. This is a fact of life. To prove it here are 4 failures in the last 4 months in Europe alone

1) Failure of LACC to get out of Night Time Configuration

2) Failure of Maastricht Flight Data System

3) Total Power Outage at ScACC

4) Total Radar Failure at Maastricht

On the aircraft side its just as bad, radios fail, transponders give out bad mode C returns.

By all means let the computers do the work, but always,always be in a position where the controllers and the pilots can keep everyone safe if something breaks.

[Bally Heck]

Today they have announced the intention to build three or four new runways, and project that passenger figures will more than double over the next twenty years.

So given that UK ATC can't cope with the traffic they currently have, how are they going to do that?

[reynoldsno1]

Add a few d ozen A380s, and the crew will get their slot clearances with their wake-up call.

[Mowgli]

An interesting thread in which I have a vested interest. Houston, we have a problem.

Some suggested solutions are far reaching and would involve a long lead time to develop technology and implement. It seems to me that we should look at tackling those areas which can be improved in the short-term. Some of the controllers who have posted talk about low morale and poor management, and the effects of this on goodwill, cancelling leave etc.

The jewel(s) in the crown of NATS are undoubtedly the controllers who push the tin. No doubt their management would not welcome the sort of high media profile and political interest that might raise the stakes and ensure that they get the resources they need to fix the problem.

In the recent media, we hear about the need to increase runway capacity in the SE. We hear about holiday flights being delayed. We hear about the problems at Swanwick. We don't hear that we need to manage our controllers better and raise their morale and put more resources into training and recruiting more of them.

I have flown in many parts of the world and so I could comment on who I think is the best as some posters have here on this thread, but this is not a competition, and I think we should concentrate on a discussion which will be useful in suggesting ways of preventing a horrific accident which would then no doubt bring about changes to stop it ever happening again.

Let's shut the stable door before the horse has bolted.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Bally Heck -

UK atc would be able to deal with significantly more traffic if the watches were staffed to somewhere near the levels required by working practices agreement. If we always had the bodies to split sectors then most of the delays attributed to staff shortages, sickness etc would be eradicated. Until that happy day we just have to keep on doing our best with extremely limited resources and very talented controllers . Keep it all crossed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: