737 VAPP?

[TotalBeginner]

Afternoon,

Have just seen THIS (https://youtu.be/BvJ0jIE0vO8?t=318) video of a 737 on final approach...

At 5:29 the speed briefly tops out at 183KIAS and the flap load relief activates. Are there any technical inspections required after such an event?

[Centaurus]

For all the frantic control wheel waggling by the pilot the artificial horizon didn't seem to move. Microsoft flight simulator view, maybe?

[back to Boeing]

Seems to be happening more and more on 737 drivers. And his/her thumb isn't on the trim switches. Just seems like radical over controlling to me.

[737aviator]

The flap limit is 175 for Flap 30, the kind of speed a lot of the approach seemed to be flown at, rather than a speed between Vref and the bugged Vfly, and yes tech log entry required for busting the flap limit speed.

[ImbracableCrunk]

His power was parked at 68% during the overspeed. Seems self-induced.

[galdian]

Surprised no one's commented on the "50" call coming way before threshold crossing, seems low assuming a standard 3.0 degree path and 1000 ft aiming point were the references.

[172_driver]

Really odd.. hovering at the flap limit speed for much of the approach, with a couple of flap overspeed.

[B737SFP]

Not to mention moving the autobrake switch during the landing roll...

Need more braking? Take over and brake yourself.

Geeeez, that was weird.

[TotalBeginner]

Looking at the airspeed bug on the PFD they already appear to have applied a wind additive (VREF 141, MCP SPD 155). Why would you add another 15 to that and fly the majority of the approach at 30, sometimes 40 KIAS above Vref?

[BleedingAir]

Boeing is pretty clear on this, at least in our manuals. Vapp should be set up to but not exceeding Vref+20, dependant on conditions. For a flap 30 approach this may well bring you within 10 knots of the flap limit speed during fluctuations, but you shouldn't be living there.

[oceancrosser]

And the wind all of 22 gusting 33 kts. What would this guy be doing in 50 kts?
Looks like frantic overcontolling.

[B737900er]

He busted the limit speed twice. Whats also interesting is that the Flap relief didn't work the second time? I bet the fleet manager is wondering whats going on there.

[bucks_raj]

In my company... A Flap Load Relief any where below 1000FT AGL Baro is an stabilized criterion "." I have had it and I have done a GA...

[Skyjob]

Seeing this video frightens me to see what other airline operators can be like.

For one I do not think the approach should've been continued considering the guy is flying completely out of his comfort zone, flying WELL ABOVE Vref+20, the maximum stipulated by Boeing throughout the flight.
The high N1% certainly is partly to blame, let alone his yoke handling being way excessive...

Glad to see the aircraft is not a major low cost operator employing many (lower) experienced captains in the EU industry...

[Atlas Shrugged]

That was less than ordinary technique

[framer]

That video is nothing short of disturbing.

[Bobermo]

Completely insane to continue an approach like this..

[Capt Fathom]

All I can suggest is stay out of other people's flightdecks. How would you like someone criticising your approach.
We don't have the full picture as to what is going on!
For example, the previous landing aircraft may have reported a large undershoot shear!
Who knows. I'm just uncomfortable with the finger pointing without knowing the facts and actually being there.

[B737900er]

I agree Capt Fathom to a degree. Can you justify flying a non stable approach in an non emergency situation to a judge?

[back to Boeing]

To be fair the person who's ego felt the need to make the video available online invited us in to the flight deck to be judged and or criticised. If he didn't want criticism of his flight he should have kept the video private.

[Skyjob]

Agreed, and in doing so shown those aviators operating the aircraft and knowing its limitations the various issues arisen during the approach, who then openly criticise the pilot in question.

Maybe the pilot in question was comfortable filming and publishing his achievement, where others would take a different view on his "achievement" that day.

Regardless of reason for posting, a challenging day it may have been, the pilot's limitations may have been exceeded, tunnel vision may have occurred and as such he may not have realised what was going on during the approach.

Let's not judge him, but learn from the video.
Let's teach our fellow aviators it is OK to abandon the approach when seeing one like this in future, when a flap relief activates at low level, or tell the handling pilot his thrust setting is too high, his approach speed is excessive, and so forth...

[Starfox64]

At least in my airline, this approach would the kind considered as a case study of poor handling skills and lack of assertiveness from the pilot not flying.

It may be the case that the airline involved have more relaxed procedures regarding stabilised approach criteria and flap blowback.

Anybody thats spent more than a few hours in a 737-700/800 knows that any extended period with average thrust well beyond 60% will be far in excess of what is required. Of course there may be periods where reacting to a shear that thrust may be lower or higher but the thrust barely goes below the datum setting at of around 55-60% whilst staying far above that for almost all of the final approach - even during and approaching blowback.

If we look at the ROD in the final stages its between around 300fpm and then all the way to a sustained 1500fpm!

Like the previous poster says, every now and again you can have a bad day at the office, but to consider this an approach to be proud enough to put on youtube... madness in my opinion!

[frozencoldpilot]

Afternoon,

Have just seen THIS (https://youtu.be/BvJ0jIE0vO8?t=318) video of a 737 on final approach...

At 5:29 the speed briefly tops out at 183KIAS and the flap load relief activates. Are there any technical inspections required after such an event?

No. There was no overspeed otherwise the clacker would go off. The flap load relief worked as advertised and made sure the plane didn't overspeed the flaps.

Plus I don't think most people would notice the flap relief working while on short final fighting a gusty day.

The pilot did the best he/she could and that's just to fly the plane.

[Starfox64]

Frozen... are you a qualified 737 driver?

The flap 30 limit speed for this aircraft is 175kts. The airspeed is above 175 for a period before the blowback activates, thus they had a flap overspeed in my book. Blowback is designed to prevent damage to the flap system yes however it is reactive, not predictive in operation.

In my opinion if that was the best he/she could do at flying that aircraft their licence should be torn up or inspected for its validity.

[sierra5913]

All I can suggest is stay out of other people's flightdecks. How would you like someone criticising your approach.
We don't have the full picture as to what is going on!
For example, the previous landing aircraft may have reported a large undershoot shear!
Who knows. I'm just uncomfortable with the finger pointing without knowing the facts and actually being there.

We don't know who the PF is. There is no personal judgement made.

This video serves as a discussion point. Maybe even a training aide.

Shutting down discussion is the worst outcome. No one learns that way.

[framer]

Even if there was no flap over speed and no excessive ROD it is still scary to watch the over controlling. I have been flying the 737's for ten years and never seen control inputs like that.

[sonicbum]

At around 400 ft RA the IAS jumped to 183 kt which is command speed + 28 knots considering what seems to be a Vref additive of 14 kt from the original Vref of 141 Kt. So it looks to me like an unstable approach be it due to inadequate handling, windshear or a combination of both. In any case it's a go around.

[Fursty Ferret]

. lack of assertiveness from the pilot not flying

Apart from the unstable approach it's a brave copilot that offers feedback on the captain's flying technique.

[737aviator]

I'd be hoping my copilot would be telling me to go around if I was flying an unstable approach like this.

They had 3.7 tonnes of fuel, there's plenty of time to try again or go somewhere else with that amount.

[ImbracableCrunk]

Apart from the unstable approach it's a brave copilot that offers feedback on the captain's flying technique.

Out of curiosity, where do you fly?

[Check Airman]

Apart from the unstable approach it's a brave copilot that offers feedback on the captain's flying technique.

Where do you fly?

[Fursty Ferret]

UK, on the A320. There's a big difference between acting as PM (and I have no qualms about speaking up and potentially annoying someone there, as it's my job), and offering feedback directly on someone's flying technique.

I've only done it once (in fact, after the captain specifically asked for it after a challenging approach), and when it wasn't what he wanted to hear I received a bit of a lecture about how a "bit of experience" didn't make me an expert and the importance of keeping my mouth shut.

So, yeah, I'll continue to use our post-flight reviews to pick holes in my own flying - of which there are many, sadly - but will not offer feedback otherwise.

[delopera]

Why did they activate MCP SPEED mode after disconnecting AP? And vertical speed greater than 1000 fpm for 3.0 G/S at height below 500 is crazy.

[SR-22]

Over controlling with excessive speed and thrust. I can agree that one might not notice a flap load relief activating in tricky conditions but he should notice the excessive speed and do something about it which he did not. I have to wonder why he selected LV CHG at 1200'AAL and after autopilot disconnect

[FullWings]

Having just watched the video, it reminds me of the old blue screen shots when people are pretending to be driving cars: lots of sawing away at the wheel without any corresponding movement from the vehicle. Much of the “turbulence” here appears to be self-induced by flailing away in what are not exactly challenging conditions.

In my outfit, that approach would have been classed as unstable for multiple reasons, with a mandatory GA. Not a great display of airmanship here I’m afraid...

[mvsb1863]

I can describe the whole video using only one word: :UN-BE-LIE-VA-BLE"
During this tragic-comic video I realized so many mistakes from both "pilots" so many times that is hard to believe.