Lap top and tablet ban

[Farrell]

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/03/20/royal-jordanian-electronic-device-ban/

[DespairingTraveller]

Looks like it's rather more than Jordan affected. This is up on The Guardian tonight:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/20/us-forbids-devices-larger-cell-phones-flights-13-countries

[DaveReidUK]

The Grauniad manges to contradict itself by saying that devices are unconditionally banned on flights, and then that they are only banned in hand baggage.

[DespairingTraveller]

It is the Grauniad. Quite a lot of form in that respect...

[ExDubai]

Any idea who else is on the list???

[racedo]

Are the finally starting to look at the "real" sources of terrorism and terrorism funding............wow .

[Carjockey]

If laptops etc are only allowed as checked baggage, then what about the lithium batteries which they contain and which are not allowed in checked baggage?

[Eddie Dean]

I would suggest that an existing rule isn't gazzumped by this new rule.
You should be able to figure out what has to happen to the batteries.

[Carjockey]

Well no, please enlighten us.

[Carjockey]

@Eddie Dean
Why don't you just explain your statement? Then there will be no misunderstanding.

[Capn Bloggs]

then what about the lithium batteries which they contain and which are not allowed in checked baggage?
I thought you weren't allowed to carry spare batteries in your checked luggage. I battery nicely tucked away in it's designed-for housing in a piece of equipment will hardly be a threat, even if it is in your suitcase. How many laptops are blowing up in the cabin now?

[Carjockey]

For checked baggage purposes, I'm not sure if a distinction is made between spare batteries and batteries installed in their designated piece of equipment.

I thought all lithium batteries were disallowed in checked baggage, regardless of whether they are spares or otherwise?

Please enlighten us Eddie Dean.

[Capn Bloggs]

Do a quick airline search!

For example:

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/baggage-essentials/liquids-and-restrictions

[flyhardmo]

The baggage handlers will have a field day accepting your laptops and IPads as free gifts.

How many laptops are blowing up in the cabin now?

Not many but then again most people don't throw their bags full of expensive devices. Luggage isn't exactly treated with care in between an aircraft and the terminal.

[Airbubba]

An AQAP airplane bombing attempt several years ago where we were tipped by Saudi intelligence:

On October 29, 2010, two packages, each containing a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11–14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism, were found on separate cargo planes. The bombs were discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia's security chief. They were bound from Yemen to the United States, and were discovered at en route stop-overs, one at East Midlands Airport in the UK and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

One week later, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) took responsibility for the plot, and for the crash of UPS Airlines Flight 6. U.S. and British authorities believed Anwar al-Awlaki of AQAP was behind the bombing attempts, and that the bombs were most likely constructed by AQAP's main explosives expert, Ibrahim Hassan al-Asiri. The bombs were probably designed to detonate mid-air, with the intention of destroying both planes over Chicago or another city in the U.S. Each bomb had already been transported on passenger and cargo planes at the time of discovery.

...The UPS plane landed at East Midlands Airport at 2:13 AM local time on October 29. British military and police explosives experts had been alerted to the existence of the bomb, and conducted an initial search of the plane's cargo in the airport's UPS parcels distribution depot. Officers from the Scotland Yard Counter Terrorism Command joined them.

U.S. authorities provided the precise tracking number of the package, and the printer was scanned with explosives detection equipment, x-rayed, subjected to chemical swabs, and sniffed by sniffer dogs. No explosives were detected. Removing the suspect package for further examination, the authorities allowed the UPS plane to proceed to Philadelphia at 4:20 AM local time. At 10 am the British gave the all-clear, and removed safety cordons from the airport.

Later forensic examination indicated that the bomb was inadvertently disarmed by Scotland Yard explosive officers, who took the printer cartridge out of the printer during their examination that morning, around three hours before the bomb was due to explode at 10:30 AM (5:30 AM Eastern time). The officers were unaware when they took the device apart that it was a bomb. [:eek:]

British officials continued to believe that there were not any explosives in the package, but U.S. authorities insisted that the package be inspected again. British authorities then consulted with officials in Dubai, who had discovered a similar bomb in a computer printer cartridge, and MI6 spoke with the Saudi tipster. Scotland Yard explosives officers flew the printer and the cartridge in a police helicopter to the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Fort Halstead near London, and discovered the bomb at around 2 PM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_planes_bomb_plot

[underfire]

Scotland Yard explosives officers flew the printer and the cartridge in a police helicopter to the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Fort Halstead near London, and discovered the bomb at around 2 PM.

So happy that they flew the device by Police Helo BEFORE they figured out it was a bomb....

[Eddie Dean]

The baggage handlers will have a field day accepting your laptops and IPads as free gifts.



Not many but then again most people don't throw their bags full of expensive devices. Luggage isn't exactly treated with care in between an aircraft and the terminal.Oh My Goodness me, you are a disrespectful individual are you not???

[dr dre]

Is this just a covert attempt to dissuade people flying on the ME3, plus a few others, after vigorous lobbying by the US airline industry and getting away with it using the "security" excuse so the ME3 can't complain about a violation of open skies treaties?
My understanding is that security in places like Dubai and Qatar is world class, we aren't talking about some third rate corrupt nation with lax security so why now suddenly are they lumped in with all these other airports?
Not one US carrier is affected by the ban, funny that?

[megan]

you are a disrespectful individual are you notYou better take your rose tinted glasses off Eddie.

mU6F12S6q48

[crewmeal]

This is Trump's administration way of getting back at the Middle East carriers who are doing so well on North American routes. The ban seems to be aimed at all ME carriers. I bet he doesn't ban iPads on Russian carriers.

Trump Bans Laptops And IPads From Dubai Flights To USA - Emirates, Flights, Use, UAE Ban Around Town - ShortList Dubai (http://www.shortlistdubai.com/around-town/article/12768-trump-bans-laptops-and-ipads-from-dubai-flights-to-usa)

I'm surprised he hasn't done anything with PIA yet.

[Andrewgr2]

The BBC report seems to suggest that only 9 as yet unnamed airlines flying from a specified list of 10 airports will be affected?

US to ban laptops and tablets on flights from eight countries - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39333424)

I don't understand the logic. An electronic device going bang in the hold is going to be just as damaging as if it goes off in the cabin.

[keitaidenwa]

Suddenly there is a yuge market for ipad-sized phones in middle east.

[rkenyon]

I'm surprised he hasn't done anything with PIA yet.

It's already implemented on PIA. They have to stop off in Europe for re-screening on the way to the US.

[ExXB]

So terrorists don't fly US airlines, or on connecting flights.

Is this a reasonable security measure or a poorly disguised economic restriction?

[Hogger60]

It will be interesting to see if this is this is airline or country specific. It is a farce either way, and just another example of security theater. As ExXB stated, what is stopping would be terrorists from connecting through Europe or Asia?

[2Planks]

BBC now listing the airports and airlines here:
Electronics banned on some US flights from Middle East - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39333424)


So my question is: Is there separate screening for American airline flights from these airports or do the respective airport authorities/contractors do it for all flights?


If all bags are subject to the same screening then the conspiracy theories regarding anti-competitive practices will snowball.

[Dubaian]

And my question is: Is the screening of hold baggage at these airports as least as good (or even better than) screening of hand baggage?

If not this is pointless.

Surely a bad guy trying to get a disguised bomb on board is more likely to be a bit twitchy if the device is still with him at screening. Putting it in a checked bag may give him an easier ride through security and less chance of being detected.

[GearDown&Locked]

And don't forget that's possible to link devices between the little pax cellphone and the laptop at the cargo hold. Again, throwing sand in everyone's eyes.

[ExXB]

Apparently it also applies to pax transiting these airports to the US.

But the document detailing the enhanced security refers to "last point of departure airports" - so if you change planes at one of the affected airports for the last leg of your trip, the rules still apply.

Although with this language it wouldn't apply to 5th freedom flights that transit Europe. So flights DXB-MIL-JFK, etc, aren't caught.

IMHO a poorly disguised economic restriction against 10 airlines. Nothing else makes sense. Perhaps the 10 airports will implement a blanket restriction on all direct (and indirect) flights to the US. That would be reasonable.

[ZFT]

We have a company ban on any laptops travelling in checked baggage for (perceived) security issues. I suspect we are not alone so this must have an economic impact on the effected carriers.

[Matvey]

It's already implemented on PIA. They have to stop off in Europe for re-screening on the way to the US.
Same with Kuwait, though (stops in Shannon), but KWI was still put on the airport ban list.

[Fluke]

Wonder how it will affect crew. My airlines one of the mentioned, has nice shiny new iPads for crew and I know many cabin crew use them in their duties. At the moment crew get no exemptions from other TSA restrictions so should be a bonus for Jepp and Liddo chart printers. 😉

[SeenItAll]

See this Washington Post article for a clear view about how this action may be retaliation against the ME3. Banning tablets and laptops from the cabin will essentially kill off all of their business class traffic. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/03/21/trump-wont-allow-you-to-use-ipads-or-laptops-on-certain-airlines-heres-the-underlying-story/?utm_term=.18f5beeb6f68

[ExDubai]

We have a company ban on any laptops travelling in checked baggage for (perceived) security issues. I suspect we are not alone so this must have an economic impact on the effected carriers.
For sure, the premium traffic will really suffer

[Sailvi767]

I thought you weren't allowed to carry spare batteries in your checked luggage. I battery nicely tucked away in it's designed-for housing in a piece of equipment will hardly be a threat, even if it is in your suitcase. How many laptops are blowing up in the cabin now?

Delta had one happen in 2016. Caught fire in a business class overhead bin. Crew was able to use the new containment bag to put it out.

[Sam Asama]

This action creates a significant safety issue. No, a huge safety issue. Fires originating from lithium batteries in aircraft cabins lead to cabin crew using effective methods (applied quickly) to extinguish them. The fact that these types of fires are A. so dangerous, and B. still occurring, is the reason ICAO and EASA moved to restrict / ban such electronics in cargo -- those types of fires in cargo holds CANNOT be efficiently attacked in flight.

With this insane order I can no longer fly to / from any of those airports on any of those carriers. Why? Because I need my laptop for the work I do in those places (the UAE for example, where I work regularly) and I WILL NOT fly on an aircraft that has a hold full of identified fire hazards waiting to spontaneously combust in a location where the fire cannot be suppressed. And daily there are many thousands of people in the same situation as me. Absolute insanity.

I am hopeful that immediate backlash from ICAO, EASA, IATA, etc. will lead to a retraction of this deranged order.

[peekay4]

Emirates says U.S. electronics restrictions to last months

REUTERS -- New restrictions on passengers carrying electronics on U.S. flights will be in place for nearly seven months, an Emirates spokeswoman said on Tuesday.
...
The directive comes into effect on 25 March 2017 and is valid until 14 October 2017," the Emirates spokeswoman said in an emailed statement. "It is applicable to all U.S.-bound passengers from Dubai International Airport, whether originating or transiting through."

Full article: Emirates says U.S. electronics restrictions to last months | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-airlines-electronics-emirates-idUSKBN16S0KG)

[Mike Flynn]

It apears the ban is much wider.

Passengers flying to the UK from certain countries will be banned from carrying most electronic devices, Sky sources say.

Electronic devices ban on some UK-bound flights (http://news.sky.com/story/electronic-devices-ban-on-some-uk-bound-flights-10809743)

How will this affect transit airlines from the Far East such as Emirates?

[ExDubai]

Business and first will suffer.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Well, it would appear there's more to it than meets the eye, and not Trump/racism/protectionism that those afflicted with leftism were claiming. There must be something in it.

A bomb in the device WILL go off. A LiOn battery MAY go off. It's all about risk assessments I suppose. And we all know people ignore advice and stick laptops and the like in suitcases. Passengers have paid very little attention to anything safety related.

It makes me wonder who was the target flight(s).

[DaveReidUK]

Whether the UK applies it as well or not doesn't make it any less inconsistent.

To try to differentiate between the threat posed by incendiary/explosive devices in the cabin and the same threat in the hold is ridiculous.

[ExXB]

It makes me wonder who was the target ...

EK/EY/QR/TK

[HeartyMeatballs]

I'd take a liOn fire in the hold vs a charge of high explosive. Look to Metrojet to see what a charge the size of a drinks can can do to A321 and there's not a thing that can be done once it goes pop. It's not an incendiary device that's the worry. A few pounds of huge explosive and it's game over for everyone onboard.

[Cows getting bigger]

To try to differentiate between the threat posed by incendiary/explosive devices in the cabin and the same threat in the hold is ridiculous.

Err no. it depends how the device is activated.

[HeartyMeatballs]

I wonder if we will go back to proving a device is workable. I recall even flying to the Scottish isles having to prove that my phone could switch on and wasn't just a dummy. I've not seen that done for 20 year.

Is there something different about these airlines and their procedures? I believe they use the same terminals and secure zone as US/EU airlines. I'd have thought US/EU airlines would be a much worthwhile target assuming the risk is from ISIS, their subsidiaries, franchises or affiliates.

[dsc810]

I've seen that done at one of either Innsbruck or Saltzberg only a couple of years ago
If if would not switch/the battery was flat it was confiscated and would be returned to you later presumably with a bill to pay prior.
The checking was random rather than 100%.

[HeartyMeatballs]

I was only a young un' at the time but this was at the time of the troubles. Still they were doing it to everyone. I suppose my brick phone could have done some damage given the size of it. I do recall some anxiety as to what happened if it didn't switch on.

I'm not sure how the public will react. I reminded myself the other day why I hate flying as a passenger and it's the cretins you must share the metal tube with. It must be a decade since the liquid bomb plot. The rules have been in place for a decade, yet still people argue about having a little bottle of bubble bath taken off them.

[PPRuNe Towers]

For those reading this as underlying commercial antagonism we now have a UK broadsheet and a tabloid suggesting it is coming soon to the UK.

Security based and been under discussion for a couple of weeks now. The ME3 may not be popular west side of the pond but it's beginning to look like the posited attack on them might in fact just be collateral damage.

If these reports are true they will add greatly to the economic effects facing many airlines.

Rob

[Globally Challenged]

I wonder if we will go back to proving a device is workable. I recall even flying to the Scottish isles having to prove that my phone could switch on and wasn't just a dummy. I've not seen that done for 20 year.

Is there something different about these airlines and their procedures? I believe they use the same terminals and secure zone as US/EU airlines. I'd have thought US/EU airlines would be a much worthwhile target assuming the risk is from ISIS, their subsidiaries, franchises or affiliates.

Proving a laptop is function is something they have been doing on departure (at least on BA flights to LHR) from Dubai for a few years at least (this check is done at the boarding gate)

[tlott]

Well, it would appear there's more to it than meets the eye, and not Trump/racism/protectionism that those afflicted with leftism were claiming. There must be something in it.

A bomb in the device WILL go off. A LiOn battery MAY go off. It's all about risk assessments I suppose. And we all know people ignore advice and stick laptops and the like in suitcases. Passengers have paid very little attention to anything safety related.

It makes me wonder who was the target flight(s).

Even if there is something more to it, would they not just work around this?

Surely someone that is able to board a US bound flight from DOH or DXB, who has a US visa, can obtain a Schengen visa and do the same from Madrid or Frankfurt, or connect via any number of other airports? How could a plot like this be solely limited to particular origin airports?

[PAXboy]

UK flight ban on electronic devices announced - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39343971)

The UK has announced a cabin baggage ban on laptops on passenger flights from six Middle East and North African countries.
The restrictions, which also apply to tablets, DVD players and phones over certain size, come after a similar US Department of Homeland Security ban (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39333424).
Downing Street said they followed talks on air security and were "necessary, effective and proportionate".
Eight UK airlines and six foreign airlines are affected.


My how No.10 loves Trumpo.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Yes, it's all part of the Trumpster's plan to take over Britain. It's just to protect BA & the US3 from these pesky Middle East airlines providing a better service at a lower cost.

We all know it's silly because Muslim countries are as safe as houses. It's the nasty right wingers and their iPad Pros we need to worry about the next MetroJet or Daalo Airlines incident.

tlott - Sharm, its failure to maintain standards and being in a very unsafe part of the world conspired to end in disaster helped along by local supporters. Perhaps these places have more sympathisers to the cause?

We digress. According to SKY, English airlines are to implement similar controls but no specifics were mentioned when the news broke. I suppose we will have to wait for Trump to tell us what to do?

[vctenderness]

Britain will follow the US and bar passengers from taking laptops and tablets on UK-bound flights from six Middle Eastern countries.
Theresa May, the Prime Minister, announced that passengers will be barred from taking laptops into flights from Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Turkey.
The move will affect in-bound passengers from those countries on flights by UK carriers including British Airways, Easyjet, Jet 2, Monarch, Thomas Cook and Thomson flights.
It will also affect those flying with foreign carriers including Turkish Airlines, Pegasus, Atlas Global, Egypt Air, Tunisair, Royal Jordanian and Saudia. Airlines which fail to meet the requirements will be barred from flying to the UK, including Kindle and other e-readers.
Passengers will be barred from taking on board devices that are "larger than a normal sized mobile or smart phone", equivalent to 16cm long, 9.3cm wide and 1.5cm deep. These devices will have to be placed in the hold.
Airlines will be given a "few days" to adjust to the new regulations, and Downing Street acknowledged that the measure would cause disruption for passengers.
However the Prime Minister's Official Spokesman said: “The additional security measures may cause some disruption for passengers and flights, and we understand the frustration that will cause, but our top priority will always be to maintain the safety of British nationals."

[Guest 112233]

Is this just a covert attempt to dissuade people flying on the ME3, plus a few others, after vigorous lobbying by the US airline industry and getting away with it using the "security" excuse so the ME3 can't complain about a violation of open skies treaties?
My understanding is that security in places like Dubai and Qatar is world class, we aren't talking about some third rate corrupt nation with lax security so why now suddenly are they lumped in with all these other airports?
Not one US carrier is affected by the ban, funny that?

OK I stand to be corrected, but in the absence of a clear and present threat, I concur with your comments. If the existence of a perceived threat becomes public; then the proposed actions will be accepted otherwise the proposed actions will be perceived as neither "Justified or Proportionate".

[ExXB]

UK follows suit, but countries don't match.

UK: Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia.

What happened to Kuwait and the UAE?

[ExXB]

Does anyone have an idea, or a good guess, how they are going to deal with connecting passengers? Seems counterproductive to have them put their forbidden fruit in their bags, when they have been checked through. OTOH, it doesn't seem intuitive to put all the confiscated li-io all together in a single container.

[ExDubai]

O.K, just a plot to bring down TK ;)
UAE and Kuwait might be some political reasons. Who knows....

[coolbeans202]

A couple of quick comments:

Bloomberg has a quote from the top Democrat on the House Intelligence committee who says he has seen the intel and thinks the ban is both “both necessary and proportional.” https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-03-21/mideast-airlines-say-new-u-s-restrictions-will-force-changes

Britain is following suit (partially). Curious the omissions of UAE and Qatar...hmmm...maybe someone thought they could sneak a little retaliation in the US ban?

AUH is especially curious to me given that US-bound passengers go through pre-clearance before boarding.

No US airlines are targeted because no US airlines fly to the affected countries. United and Delta used to fly to the Middle East and Dubai, respectively, but those services have ended. As have Istanbul flights.

[LadyL2013]

I imagine if the UK is following suit, this is likely based on intelligence.

However, if one were a terrorist and really wanted to get an explosive device disguised as a laptop or tablet on an aircraft, would one not simply use an airline or destination that wasn't on the banned list now?

I remain skeptical about why this isn't more of a blanket ban but obviously Joe Public are not privvy to all the info so there may well be a good reason.

[MG23]

However, if one were a terrorist and really wanted to get an explosive device disguised as a laptop or tablet on an aircraft, would one not simply use an airline or destination that wasn't on the banned list now?

Because they're more likely to spot it before it gets on the plane?

[DaveReidUK]

UK follows suit, but countries don't match

Nor, it would seem, is the UK ban specific to particular airlines.

[erratic]

I don't believe this is about security in the slightest.
Catching a bomb in a device jammed in the middle of a persons luggage is going to be less accurate than the current system of x-raying carry-on tablets and laptops in a tray all by themselves.
If it were really about security, that's the bit that would be beefed up.

[Livesinafield]

Well if its not about security then what is it about? Us "joe Public" don't have a scooby whats going on deep down in intelligence agency's



I suspect the countries listed in the ban are listed because they sponsor terrorism and its rife over there, getting the bits you need where you want is a lot easier

[2Planks]

Dave


Nothing on specific airlines on the DfT website (but it details countries and sizes of device), but the BBC list specific airlines here:
UK flight ban on electronic devices announced - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39343971)
Perhaps a journo has used a scraper site?

[crewmeal]

Am I correct in saying it's only for flights FROM these countries and not to them?

The latest gov.uk travel advice:

Latest update: Summary – there’s a heightened risk of terrorist attack against aviation; the UK government has decided to implement additional security measures for flights departing to the UK from a number of countries including Egypt in the coming days but no later than 25 March; you should co-operate fully with security officials; if you need more information about how this may affect your flight, contact your airline or travel company

[Thaihawk]

If this really was a security related issue, the ban would surely be blanket across the industry with ICAO being urged to make any such ban universal?.

After all what's to stop some ISIS (or similar) supporter in Britain or Germany (to name two countries) from boarding an unrestricted airline to the US, or a restricted airline to a non-US/UK destination with a laptop bomb and bringing down that flight?.

Are the lives of those flying say DXB/JFK worth more than those flying (say) DXB/BKK or KUL?.

If you're banned from taking a container over 100ml of any LAG on an airplane on the grounds of security, surely the same should apply to a laptop?.

It would seem the real target is to hit the revenues of the Gulf 3 and Turkish Airlines in the guise of "security".

The British May government is a subservient lapdog to the US administration-much like Blair was, no doubt also keen to hit the revenues of the above named airlines to the advantage of British Airways.

Again if this was really about security, where's the ban from other governments in the west and elsewhere on such flights?.

[Chris2303]

in the absence of a clear and present threat,

Perhaps there is something specific that has just come to light?

In the meantime it won't be the terrorists that bring down a flight it will be a tablet/laptop on fire in the hold.

[TURIN]

Same with Kuwait, though (stops in Shannon), but KWI was still put on the airport ban list.

This has answered one conundrum.

Kuwait Airlines applied for a tech/security stop at Manchester (UK) starting on 26th March. Abandoning Shannon. No one could work out why. Now we know. Kuwait is not on the UK ban but it is on the US ban. The plot thickens.

[ExXB]

It would seem the real target is to hit the revenues of the Gulf 3 and Turkish Airlines in the guise of "security".

The British May government is a subservient lapdog to the US administration-much like Blair was, no doubt also keen to hit the revenues of the above named airlines to the advantage of British Airways.

However the UK ban will not affect QR/EK/EY. It will affect TK, that is until Erdoğan threatens to close a few military bases to their NATO allies.

[axefurabz]

According to SKY, English airlines are to implement similar controls ...

Whew! Well at least those of us who use Loganair will be ok! :}

[LadyL2013]

Because they're more likely to spot it before it gets on the plane?

Sorry, I'm confused, what do you mean?

[uffington sb]

coolbeans202.
It's not unknown for 'intel' to be sexed up like the infamous 'dodgy dossier', WMD etc.

[HeartyMeatballs]

As far as I'm aware the only British airlines named have been English axefurabz.

[MG23]

Sorry, I'm confused, what do you mean?

The main argument against this ban is 'But if they can't get a bomb on board in Egypt, they'll just get it on board in Heathrow, so what's the point?'.

Sane people know that they're far less likely to get a bomb on board in Heathrow than in Egypt.

[4listair]

This was published 10 months ago but is worth a read, wrt Daallo Airlines Flight 159, etc:

The Evolving Challenges for Explosive Detection in the Aviation Sector and Beyond
https://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/the-evolving-challenges-for-explosive-detection-in-the-aviation-sector-and-beyond

Published by Combating Terrorism Center, West Point, NY
May 19, 2016
Author(s): Robert Liscouski, William McGann

[HeartyMeatballs]

To all of the muppets claiming it's a big conspiracy to protect the US3 and BA, could you explain why it's all of the airlines from these countries and not a select few?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/additional-hand-luggage-restrictions-on-some-flights-to-the-uk

The countries:
Turkey
Lebanon
Jordan
Egypt
Tunisia
Saudi Arabia

None of the ME3 countries basically. TK isn't a real competitor following last years issues. I can't imagine many transit with SV. Egypt shouldn't be served by any UK airline.

It's fairly clear Egyptair 804 was an act of sabotage. Daalo Airlines nearly ended in catastrophe with a laptop bomb. It is claimed a drinks can bomb brought down MetroJet out of SSH.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Looks like security theater to me. So far, the Powers-That-Be in the West seem more interested in appearing to deal with the jihadi threat than in actually doing something about it. Probably because that would require admitting that some religious sects are genuinely dangerous, and suppressing them either by direct force or through client states.

If the Raj had had our modern mindset, Thuggees would still strangle, and Hindu widows would still burn.

[CCGE29]

Well if they just banned electronics from Qatar and the UAE then it would be even more obvious. They have to add other countries to make this 'security' precaution look valid.

It is just an excuse to get at the MEB3 and TK. What a joke.

[locustflyer]

Does the Uk ban affect private flights too? It just says all flights from these countries? Can't see it being too popular with the board of directors on their business trip home?

[TURIN]

As far as I'm aware the only British airlines named have been English axefurabz.

British Airways hasn't been English for years. Owned by IAG which is an internatonal company 20% owned by Qatar.

Monarch is owned by Greybull Capital, which is essentially French.

[logansi]

I have information that Australia will also be implementing some sort of ban however none of the countries the UK has banned are serviced to Australia.

[HeartyMeatballs]

British Airways is registered in England, as is Monarch. But the usual rules applies then. Anything English = British and generic, or foreign. God forbid anything be described as English, only the Welsh and Scots are able to refer to anything from their respective countries as their own.

[DaveReidUK]

To all of the muppets claiming it's a big conspiracy to protect the US3 and BA, could you explain why it's all of the airlines from these countries and not a select few?

In respect of the US ban, the muppets would be perfectly justified in concluding exactly that.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

British Airways is registered in England, as is Monarch. But the usual rules applies then. Anything English = British and generic, or foreign. God forbid anything be described as English, only the Welsh and Scots are able to refer to anything from their respective countries as their own.

Anyway Hearty, please describe BA accurately. Its London, not English :}

[Melax]

If all checked luggage is put into explosion proof containers, it make some sense if not I'm a little confused as to why allowing a suspected (possible) explosive device in the belly of the plane, not withstanding the risk of LIO fire in an area not accessible to the crew to put it out before all the plane is consumed....

[Carjockey]

U.S., Britain curb electronics on flights from Middle East, North Africa | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-airlines-electronics-idUSKBN16S11Q)

[STN Ramp Rat]

Before I get flamed. I will not reveal anything that a regular business traveller will not know and bad guys can be business travellers too. I also accept this is a fast-moving situation and things may change over the next few hours and days as other countries join in the fun.


Next week I am travelling from the Far East to the UK and have chosen Turkish Airlines for economic reasons, they are cheap and provide star alliance points there is also a fair chance I will have an empty seat next to me as things are not going well for THY.


I will now have to check my laptop even though I am only transiting Istanbul and despite it having been cleared by security in an unaffected country. If I was flying from Istanbul to London on Lufthansa via Munich I would transit Munich non-Schengen to non-Schengen without a security check in Munich and thus would arrive in the UK with my laptop having been cleared only by Turkish security.


So, even though I am not traveling from Turkey I will be inconvenienced whereas a “bad guy” traveling from Istanbul with the intention of harming an aircraft over UK airspace can still do so if they take an indirect flight.


As it stands, at the moment, at best it is an ineffective regulation badly applied, at worst it is deliberately put in place to economically harm certain countries airlines.


If it is the former, then it needs to be sorted out quickly because we are all apparently in danger and there is a huge gap in the regulation rendering it ineffective. If it is the latter, then I am sure there will be retaliation by the affected countries soon, at least I hope there will be.

Whatever the outcome it will stop me flying THY after this trip, fortunately this trip requalifies me Star Alliance Gold so it’s not an issue #firstworldproblem

[T250]

To those questioning the uniformity of rules...

In almost all these countries listed, there is NO liquids ban on the flights FROM these places or their airports.

So just as you say there is gaping holes, so there is right now and has been for years. Only in the US, Europe and Australia is there liquid bans. Everywhere else is a free for all! Go figurr

[suninmyeyes]

Airport security often has the ridiculous policy of treating pilots the same way (or worse) than they treat passengers. So it will be interesting if they stop the pilots of those affected flights taking on board their ipads and tablets used for Jeppesen charts, takeoff performance etc. I doubt there will ever be a return to the paper charts and manuals. So if common sense prevails and they allow pilots to take Ipads and laptops on to the flight deck this might start a precedent and allow us to take other useful items such as screwdriver, leatherman etc on to the flight deck too.

[BeechNut]

Canada too has a liquid ban.

[Airbubba]

So if common sense prevails and they allow pilots to take Ipads and laptops on to the flight deck this might start a precedent and allow us to take other useful items such as screwdriver, leatherman etc on to the flight deck too.

I doubt it in the U.S.

For well over a decade we've been able to, optionally and with proper training, carry a firearm on the flight deck. But, we still have to get wanded down for pocket knives, corkscrews with a blade, screwdrivers and other banned items. :ugh:

[YukonHusky]

Only in the US, Europe and Australia is there liquid bans. Everywhere else is a free for all! Go figurrIf the latter inaccurate portrayal reflected actual fact, then your statement might be correct. However, such a wide ranging broad swoop is plainly wrong. For example, Canada, HK, SG, China, and other countries limit the amount of liquids passengers may legally bring on board commercial flights.

[jugofpropwash]

Given that a bomb in the hold is going to make as large of a hole as one in the pax compartment - and that it would seem easier to check carried-on devices (by turning on, if nothing else) than to check items in the hold.... Assuming that this isn't entirely political, then maybe whatever intelligence they've received isn't explosive related?

My initial thought was a weapon of some sort (gun, knife) hidden inside the laptop - but it seems unlikely that you could get much inside a tablet. That leaves a question of software. Could terrorists/hackers have found a way to use a laptop to interfere with communications or the operation of the aircraft? If possible, it would probably require "hands-on" the device, which would be impossible with it in the hold.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Hmmm Lets see, EK,EY,TK,QR largest carriers of residents of the Sub continent to the Americas. I would say almost 90% load on most flights out especially as the Summer holidays followed by college season starting up shortly. Smacks of an economic embargo thinly disguised as a terrorist thereat with no merit.

[ZFT]

Assuming the latest IS reports are true, then why not a blanket ban? It isn't rocket science for the bad guys to change a flight origin or carrier!

[GrahamO]

Well if they just banned electronics from Qatar and the UAE then it would be even more obvious. They have to add other countries to make this 'security' precaution look valid.

It is just an excuse to get at the MEB3 and TK. What a joke.


Agreed. The UK has to go along with some of the Trump attempt to keep the ME3 out of the USA, but not so far as to create tensions between the UK and Qatar/UAE at a time when Liam Fox is camped in the Gulf telling the big money guys how much we love them.


I am sure there is a kernel of truth at the heart of the US decision but the whole broad brush thing doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.


My own employer isn't going to insist its staff change over to flying on US airlines as that would be a mutiny, and when they arrive in 'murica, they can if they wanted, go out and buy a cheap laptop and use that instead, with all their data stored on company servers - or if their employer has a US base, provide a loan laptop instead. Sure they lose a few hours of working time in the air but that's worth it compared with travelling long haul on US airlines.

[rcsa]

What if it's not a bomb - but something else? Say, Bio or chem weapon concealed in a laptop, that is otherwise fully functional? Or software to hack the aircraft?

There's only a few reasons for stashing suspect devices in the hold, and potential explosive power is not one of them. Either the threat requires the attacker to actually use the device (hacking the a/c), or the device contains something that would be lethal in the cabin, less so in the hold.

The earliest reports said the ban would last 96 hours. That's a very precise time frame.

[crewmeal]

How long will it be before carriers do away with onboard wi-fi as it won't be worth all the cost, as not many will be able to use it?

[sabbasolo]

it would seem easier to check carried-on devices (by turning on, if nothing else) than to check items in the hold.... ....

Could terrorists/hackers have found a way to use a laptop to interfere with communications or the operation of the aircraft? If possible, it would probably require "hands-on" the device, which would be impossible with it in the hold.

How does turning it on solve anything? Remove 1kg 8500mah battery and replace with 150g 800mah, filling remaining space with xxx?

Similarly, what communications exploit can you run on a kindle, or on a laptop, that can't be run on a phone? Phones have all the same radios in them than laptops do, and several more besides, of higher power.

[BRE]

This has answered one conundrum.

Kuwait Airlines applied for a tech/security stop at Manchester (UK) starting on 26th March. Abandoning Shannon. No one could work out why. Now we know. Kuwait is not on the UK ban but it is on the US ban. The plot thickens.

How does it make a difference whether they re-screen in Ireland or the UK? Neither are affected for the first leg, and re-screening will take care of the secoend leg no matter where the stop is.

[jugofpropwash]

What if it's not a bomb - but something else? Say, Bio or chem weapon concealed in a laptop, that is otherwise fully functional? Or software to hack the aircraft?

There's only a few reasons for stashing suspect devices in the hold, and potential explosive power is not one of them. Either the threat requires the attacker to actually use the device (hacking the a/c), or the device contains something that would be lethal in the cabin, less so in the hold.



If it was a software exploit - it might be something that US planes could be "hardened" against, but perhaps the US might not want to give that technology/information to the Middle Eastern countries?

[DaveReidUK]

The earliest reports said the ban would last 96 hours.

The airlines have been given 96 hours to implement the ban.

[KelvinD]

Just heard a couple of aviation "experts" on Radio 4. God save us from experts!
One antipodean lady claimed that "an explosion against the skin of the aircraft in the passenger cabin would cause "massive decompression"; and I thought there was decompression and not-decompression and now we seem to have grades of decompression. Anyway, she then assured us that this "massive decompression" will result in all on board dying. Well, I never!
I wonder how much we have collectively forgotten about security. In the 1990s it was routine at Frankfurt airport to have your lap top tested for chemical residues, vapours etc, followed by an instruction to switch it on to demonstrate to the police officer that it really is a computer.
Similarly, when travelling by ferry or train from UK to France, it was a common occurrence to be pulled over by a police officer (on the UK side). The usual routine was for the officer to put on a pair of nice white cotton gloves and run his hand all over various surfaces of the car, inside and out. The gloves would then go into the office and into a machine for analysis. One doesn't see this sort of thing any more.
Finally, I wonder how the airlines will react when a laptop goes missing? The standard response is that they are not responsible for valuable items stored in hold baggage.

[DaveReidUK]

One antipodean lady claimed that "an explosion against the skin of the aircraft in the passenger cabin would cause "massive decompression"; and I thought there was decompression and not-decompression and now we seem to have grades of decompression. Anyway, she then assured us that this "massive decompression" will result in all on board dying. Well, I never!

Presumably Sally Leivesley, last heard telling us that MH370 had been the victim of a cyber-hijack. :ugh:

[lederhosen]

Surely the bad guys would be much more likely to target airlines from north america and Europe. A complete ban as appears likely in the UK seems to make more sense if there is information that there is a real risk.

Banning laptops I can understand from pictures I have seen in annual recurrent training, but ipads and kindles seems to indicate a new development in terror technology and could be a real problem if it applies to cockpit crews.

[the_stranger]

Just heard a couple of aviation "experts" on Radio 4. God save us from experts!
One antipodean lady claimed that "an explosion against the skin of the aircraft in the passenger cabin would cause "massive decompression"; and I thought there was decompression and not-decompression and now we seem to have grades of decompression.In my opinion, there are more than one sort of decompression when looking at the immediate effects and results. I'd rather have a slow leak then a ecplosive decompression.

I wonder how much we have collectively forgotten about security. In the 1990s it was routine at Frankfurt airport to have your lap top tested for chemical residues, vapours etc, followed by an instruction to switch it on to demonstrate to the police officer that it really is a computer.
Similarly, when travelling by ferry or train from UK to France, it was a common occurrence to be pulled over by a police officer (on the UK side). The usual routine was for the officer to put on a pair of nice white cotton gloves and run his hand all over various surfaces of the car, inside and out. The gloves would then go into the office and into a machine for analysis. One doesn't see this sort of thing any more.
Finally, I wonder how the airlines will react when a laptop goes missing? The standard response is that they are not responsible for valuable items stored in hold baggage.
In the '90's there were far fewer passengers, let alone passengers with laptops, ipads, ebookreaders, etc. I wonder if with todays numbers it would be feasible to physically check each and every item on each and every passenger and still have a functional airport.
As crew I get "swabbed" routinely at my home airport instead of having to go through the x ray with my stuff, but the process (machine) is soooo slow. Besides that, allthough they won't gie exact details, the (automatic) screening of the hold bagage is so accurate it can detect traces of "bad" stuff a lot quicker and more reliable then a person behind a screen at a security checkpoint.

[BRE]

How does turning it on solve anything? Remove 1kg 8500mah battery and replace with 150g 800mah, filling remaining space with xxx?

Similarly, what communications exploit can you run on a kindle, or on a laptop, that can't be run on a phone? Phones have all the same radios in them than laptops do, and several more besides, of higher power.

The kindle, even the most recent version, is so woefully underpowered that surfing the web to a text only site is painful. I doubt you can use it to hack anything.

[FrontRunner]

Everybody here is IMHO wrongly focusing on the devices, but the fact that specific airports are targeted suggests to me that there are serious doubts about the integrity of the security screening personnel at these specific airports.

The fact that specific airports are mentioned versus a worldwide ban, means that the authorities believe that any potential terrorist with a weaponized laptop or tablet will be stopped when trying to board a flight from the EU to the US or vice versa from the US to the Middle East.

[AN2 Driver]

IMHO placing the devices in the hold replaces one risk with a much higher one, as it will mean to put batteries into a non accessible area. I understood so far that batteries like that are not to be carried in hold baggage, so now this new regulation forces the airlines to do exactly that? How does that correspond?

Also, the ruling apparently does not only target laptops and tabletts, but ANY device bigger than a smartphone, which means also cameras e.t.c.

I think the fallout from this will be beyond massive. Nobody I know who travels for business (and quite a few for pleasure too) will give their laptops out of their hands, let alone expensive camera equipment e.t.c. Quite a few people are dreading flying without tabletts, particularly if they were used as pacifiers for children, not being able to read e-books anymore and what else?

People will simply stop travelling, unless they have become such brainless sheep by now that they will endure this as well. I certainly won't.

[T250]

Everybody here is IMHO wrongly focusing on the devices, but the fact that specific airports are targeted suggests to me that there are serious doubts about the integrity of the security screening personnel at these specific airports.

The fact that specific airports are mentioned versus a worldwide ban, means that the authorities believe that any potential terrorist with a weaponized laptop or tablet will be stopped when trying to board a flight from the EU to the US or vice versa from the US to the Middle East.

The liquids ban was NOT a uniform worldwide ban. Outside of the US, Europe and certain other countries like Australia, Hong Kong etc, no one implemented a liquids ban. It is also telling that especially in the Middle East, there was NO liquids ban, but there is now this electronics ban specifically targeting them.
Bit like the inadequacies uncovered in Egypt at Sharm el Sheik airport, that place was avoided entirely by all UK airlines following the Russian aircraft incident. Interestingly enough that airport did not follow a liquids ban either, and ironically enough the investigation pointed the figure at an explosive in a drinks can!

So the fact this new ban isn't uniform or worldwide is nothing new. At. All.

[Airbanda]

Similarly, when travelling by ferry or train from UK to France, it was a common occurrence to be pulled over by a police officer (on the UK side). The usual routine was for the officer to put on a pair of nice white cotton gloves and run his hand all over various surfaces of the car, inside and out. The gloves would then go into the office and into a machine for analysis. One doesn't see this sort of thing any more.

Carried out by civvies rather than plod but it's been routine last few times I've used Chunnel or ferry.

[Livesinafield]

People will stop travelling? Please come on....no they won't

As someone has stated the airports mentioned are clearly regarded as security threats, and are located in countries where it is easier to get hold of the required equipment and the right people can be "persuaded" to turn a blind eye

[T250]

People will do what they are told! What's the alternative.

Surely you realise how much you've been robbed and manipulated by 'security' with the liquids ban since 2006?

Wonder why that's still in force, despite technology readily available that can distinguish the contents of liquids being carried in any quantities. And of course the delivery man brings it all airside in the first place, so just shows the whole thing is a joke

This is just another profit making 'security' enhancement

[phead]

I'm surprised there is no computer vision solution being applied to this. An xray of an ipad looks like every other ipad, trusting a human to study the image seems silly when a computer could compare with a master image much better. A solution could be applied to every other device, the manufacturer submits the approved master image, the computer compares to this.

[1965 BEA]

Cabin and flight crew on many airlines affected by this ban use iPad's on board so will these also be banned?

[Dryce]

People will stop travelling? Please come on....no they won't


They have before. During Gulf War 1 passenger numbers dropped.

The impact would vary by route and availability of alternatives.

So I think you'd find that if the UK extended the ban to DBX and EK then a proportion of passengers will reroute - enough to hurt the airline on UK routes.

[Less Hair]

I think it is quite possible that big companies switch to more video conferences and such as no big company wants their employee's computers out of sight and control at funny places these days. Not so much a decision of the individuel traveller but of the top guys.

[eal401]

Nobody I know who travels for business (and quite a few for pleasure too) will give their laptops out of their hands, let alone expensive camera equipment e.t.c.

As inferred elsewhere, it is not always a case of choice, I am not allowed by my company to check a company laptop into hold baggage. If I did and was found out to have done, I'd be subject to disciplinary action.

Am currently awaiting what decision our security team makes on this highly dubious ruling.

[CanadaKid]

https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Documents/lithium-battery-guidance-document-2017-en.pdf

IATA Lithium Battery Guidance document

https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Documents/lithium-battery-guidance-document-2017-en.pdf

Hopefully the decision to load potential 'unextiguishable' burning devices in the holds override the potential for acts of terrorism.

[Aluminium shuffler]

What if it's not a bomb - but something else? Say, Bio or chem weapon concealed in a laptop, that is otherwise fully functional? Or software to hack the aircraft?


The earliest reports said the ban would last 96 hours. That's a very precise time frame.
There are far easier containers to use.

As for the ban duration, the liquids ban was meant to be for about six months, back in 2010. Of course, airports have been making fortunes selling overpriced drinks airside since then, so it'll never be dropped.

[aox]

So I plan a trip of 3 or 4 days, and can fit all my clothing and other stuff into an old laptop bag, goes between my calves and my seat while everyone else is wielding possibly heavy mid-size cases into the overhead lockers. No laptop in it though, just a 7 or 8 inch tablet. The tablet has to come out and go in the hold. On its own in a tiny cardboard box it would be vulnerable to damage or theft, so does it need a suitcase mostly full of packing? Surely it is more convenient for everyone to inspect it on check-in, which was already happening, I assumed, and then stay with the hand luggage. Even in the hold it should still be checked, so no saving of work, just a pointless and inefficient (for me and the airport and the airline) increase in baggage volume.

[Aluminium shuffler]

This is not a genuine security issue; it's an economic war by the US on companies with which it can't compete because it's services is so woeful. Rather than up their game, they again unlevel the playing field. Chapter 11, fifth freedoms and now this. Trump is as bent as a three dollar note and he has cowed to the US3 without upsetting Boeing. Otherwise, why would all US operators flying from those nations on the list be exempt from the rule?

[JammedStab]

It amuses me with all the conspiracy theorists and anti-Trumpers that are willing to sacrifice thousands of lives for their beliefs(actually, they disgust me).

It is obvious that the much-maligned raid that happened in Yemen(authorized by that terrible person) actually did reveal some hugely important information which will save a lot of lives, possibly including yours. There is a plot to attack multiple airliners in one day and kill thousands. There is precedent for a plot like this in the past if you Google search and there is a deep desire to pull it off.

The weaponry has been created as seen by the Daallo airlines attack in which a computer made it through security.

The several countries, all in one easy to guess region, have had infiltrators slowly make their way into becoming security scanners and are ready to let the bombs go through despite being detected in a coordinated manner on the same day.

Obviously, the names of the compromised screeners are unknown but their locations are known, so only a blanket ban can be made. The detection systems that are used for baggage and the manner in which they are used are considered to be more reliable than the individual security persons who have now been sidelined in terms of this particular plot which has been years in the making.

But don't worry, an individual airliner will be brought down as a back-up plan at some point by one of those insiders, just like the Russian airliner in Egypt. Although that was a maintenance guy as the insider.

I guess these airlines are victims of their own people. Kind of like we are becoming.

It is called putting 1+1+1 together.

[Sober Lark]

surely it is more convenient for everyone to inspect it on check-in

Checked baggage screening is still a costly and difficult issue, but apparently this is now the preferred process for objects they have identified as high risk.

[RustyTD]

and making it add up to two...

[RustyTD]

No high risk, just high worth. If there was an actual problem, you'd invite people to clear "extreme vetting", "high security" and welcome them on board, again.

[JammedStab]

and making it add up to two...

Many appear to only be able to add that high in terms of realistic outlook and acceptance of what the threats are today, who is creating almost all the threat, and how our policies are making them worse.

[aox]

Checked baggage screening is still a costly and difficult issue, but apparently this is now the preferred process for objects they have identified as high risk.

Sure, but in my example the tablet will presumably be screened whichever piece of luggage it ends up in. If someone who hoped to travel with just a single smaller than average piece of hand luggage ends up having to take an extra item just to put a tablet in on its own that isn't really helping anyone, including the security staff.

[eal401]

so only a blanket ban can be made.

Except a blanket ban hasn't been made. If it had, we'd be banned from taking any electronic equipment on board any aircraft.

[DaveReidUK]

Presumably Sally Leivesley, last heard telling us that MH370 had been the victim of a cyber-hijack. :ugh:

It was indeed, she's just popped up on the BBC lunchtime news to tell us that

"In a cabin, a relative small device can make a hole in the side of the plane and crash the plane; in the hold it's much less likely and the pilot has a good chance of getting the plane down on the ground".

Doh ...

[nolimitholdem]

This is not a genuine security issue; it's an economic war by the US on companies with which it can't compete because it's services is so woeful. Rather than up their game, they again unlevel the playing field. Chapter 11, fifth freedoms and now this. Trump is as bent as a three dollar note and he has cowed to the US3 without upsetting Boeing. Otherwise, why would all US operators flying from those nations on the list be exempt from the rule?

US operators are not exempt. There are simply no US airlines operating direct flights to the US from the listed countries.

Your shrill little anti-American anti-Trump rant is embarrassing.

[oldoberon]

For the conspiracy theorists, why part you and your laptop, forget bombs.

if your laptop is in baggage, it gives the "right"ppl a couple of hours to access and scrutinise your laptop and copy data, don't rely on the case being locked argument, and of course if it is interesting it may end up being "stolen".

[The late XV105]

We have a company ban on any laptops travelling in checked baggage for (perceived) security issues. I suspect we are not alone so this must have an economic impact on the effected carriers.

Not to mention the consequent lost productivity on a long haul flight, too.

It looks like SriLankan (a direct flight) will be getting all my regular LHR-CMB business rather than SriLankan or Qatar based on my mental "reasonable price & reasonable timing" algorithm as historically.

[GrahamO]

US operators are not exempt. There are simply no US airlines operating direct flights to the US from the listed countries.

Your shrill little anti-American anti-Trump rant is embarrassing.

US operators are only 'exempt' as they don't fly to those locations as they are rubbish and nobody will use them. they pulled out because they were soundly beaten and are :mad: bricks that the ME3 will show them up on their home turf for what they are.

Of course its an economic attack - the USG is simply protecting its home market and avoiding even more US citizens seeing how good the ME3 are, how bad the US carriers are and by how much the US guys are ripping them off. Trump has learned from his crude attempt on immigration to come up with a plausible excuse first, and then prevent the competition from entering the USA.

The whole argument about hold vs cabin is fatuous. If someone is going to mount an attack, they will simply come from another location which is not on the list.

[Airbubba]

It looks like SriLankan (a direct flight) will be getting all my regular LHR-CMB business rather than SriLankan or Qatar

Yep, that makes sense... :D

[MG23]

If someone is going to mount an attack, they will simply come from another location which is not on the list.

Which part of 'duh, they're going to use airports where they have agents working in security' is proving hard to understand?

[EEngr]

airports where they have agents working in security

This is the most likely scenario. They might be trying the Daallo Flight 159 type attack again. But here's the problem with a laptop ban: If the bad guys have penetrated security to that extent, they can pretty easily plant anything they want onboard an aircraft or hand it to a co-conspirator passenger. Why bother with a laptop when they could hand the guy a complete carry-on bag?

If this is indeed the threat, then we need to shut down flights originating from the compromised airports completely. And then work with the local officials to plug security holes.

[casablanca]

Which part of 'duh, they're going to use airports where they have agents working in security' is proving hard to understand?

And you think with all the :mad: going on in France and Europe or anywhere in the world right now, that they aren't just as susceptible as Dubai?
It's pretty naive as there are probably more radical terrorist in Paris or Detroit as in UAE.

[WHBM]

Given that BA have spent the last few years heavily promoting "hand baggage only" fares, it would have been good if, instead of the bland standard sentences they put in their statement of today about this, there was some information about how people who already have such tickets are to handle it. The last thing we want is for commercial departments to make a revenue opportunity out of this.

[ExXB]

IATA-WAS has just circulated the following 'clarification'

Several IATA member airlines have reported being told that the new security directive on large electronic devices also applies to devices (including electronic flight bags) carried by airline flight and cabin crew members. We have been in contact with both the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and Transportation Security Administration headquarters in Washington, DC and have been told specifically that the new directive does not apply to flight and cabin crew devices.

[MG23]

And you think with all the :mad: going on in France and Europe or anywhere in the world right now, that they aren't just as susceptible as Dubai?

If they were, we wouldn't need to have this discussion, because they'd already have smuggled bombs on board.

[ExXB]

From EK: http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11200DN1OXA8

Emirates is racing to implement plans to let passengers use their laptops and other devices until they are ready to board their U.S.-bound flights.

The gadgets would be collected before takeoff and stowed securely in cargo holds before being handed back to passengers once they land, Clark said. Passengers on flights connecting in Dubai wouldn't need to hand them in until boarding the U.S.-bound leg.

That will be interesting. I guess it helps when you have near-slave labour, and no unions.

[Chronus]

I `ll just stick my trusty old PC in my little OAP shopping pull along and see what is said about that. Never managed to get to grips with these eye pads, laps and tablets and things anyway.

[WHBM]

From EK: Emirates Defends Security as Laptop Ban Looms | NewsFactor Network (http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11200DN1OXA8)

That will be interesting. I guess it helps when you have near-slave labour, and no unions.
Not really. I think it shows that ME carriers are more proactive to issues and come up with reasonable approaches. US carriers would take 6 months to think of this, then want to charge a fee for it, doubled if not pre-booked, and the collection staff would doubtless want a tip as well.

[Airclues]

This is going to be very difficult to police. Most airports have a common security check, regardless of the airline or destination. It would be easy for someone with a non UK airline and destination to bring a laptop through and then give it to a UK bound passenger.
The only way to police this is to have an extra security check at the gate, including a scanner. How long will it take to set this up, and how many gates have the space to do this? What do the airline staff do if they find a laptop as the passenger's bag will already be in the hold?

[DaveReidUK]

stowed securely in cargo holds before being handed back to passengers once they land"I'm sorry, sir, your laptop doesn't appear to have travelled on your flight, here's a form you can use to report your loss".

Ebay is going to be busy ...

[oldoberon]

Don't think that scenario is a problem for airline staff, the pax has attempted to bypass the security rules his/her problem bye bye lappy? or miss flight.

[TURIN]

This is going to be very difficult to police. Most airports have a common security check, regardless of the airline or destination. It would be easy for someone with a non UK airline and destination to bring a laptop through and then give it to a UK bound passenger.

Hand baggage check prior to boarding in a secure area. Already happens in Doha and Singapore.

[Airclues]

I don't know about Doha, but Singapore Airport had gate security checks in the original design with scanners being installed during the building. My question is; How long will it take the airlines to establish security screening at gates which may or may not have the space to do so? Can they set up the equipment (scanners?) and recruit the (vetted) security staff in time?

[grizzled]

Regardless of the reasons (real or otherwise) for this action, Saturday will be a gong show at the airports in question.

[Axerock]

Probably been said before (cant be bothered to read through the last 7 pages) but two things spring to mind.
1. This is an admission that the need to upack your laptop and put it through the xray at security for the last few decades has been a monumental waste of time.
2. All terrorists are running on shoestring budget (or are too stupid) to relocate, assemble and then board a flight from airports not listed.

[Trevorof]

Of interest is that nothing packed in the hold bag is covered by insurance. SQ desk staff at Guangzhou insisted that my 6.9 kg cabin bag that had to reduced to 5 kg despite having done two sectors with SQ at the 7 kg limit. As my hold bag was too far up the check in conveyor the desk agent took my phone, charger and book from me and packed them in. After arriving in Medan on Silkair found phone and charger missing.
The insurance company refused to pay as nothing packed in bag, even by SQ staff against my protest that I am allowed 7 kg, was covered.
Who will cover loses due to theft or damage? Business opportunity for Rent a PC and cloud people must be happy?

The size of the phone is left to airline discretion as per Dept. of Homeland Security: A9: The size and shape of smart phones varies by brand. Smartphones are commonly available around the world and their size is well understood by most passengers who fly internationally. Please check with your airline if you are not sure whether your smartphone is impacted.

I have received an email from one airline that details sizes so my Nokia Lumia 1320 phone is not allowed in cabin. This is 6" screen. Seems like a new phone is required before my flights later this month and in April if it might be removed on some airlines.

I wish the ruling was global and not by airline

[RadarContactLost]

Hand baggage check prior to boarding in a secure area. Already happens in Doha.
Not last time I was there 3 weeks ago...

[Wannabe Flyer]

Of the top 10 nationality arrivals into the US none of them transit thru any of the 10 airports. Arrivals from country 11 are 2.5 million annually of which 1.3 million trabsit thru DXB, AUH, IST & QTR (I suspect this number is almost double as statistics are kept by nationality. A large number of this countries travellers have US or other nationalities but live/visit their country of birth regularly). The country number 11 is not on the banned list & also has direct flights to the USA & via all European Hubs. A 20 year backward look also shows that none & I state zilch have any inflight incident in specific relation to a terrorist type incident that has originated from any lapses of these 4 airports. The issue is not about the laprop ban, but with a warning on potential terror attacks on these flights, it will scare the travellers from country 11 to "fly buy Dubai" & push them back to the European hubs.

[GrahamO]

That will be interesting. I guess it helps when you have near-slave labour, and no unions.

Coming up with the idea in the first place is the kind of thing one would expect here.

Your comment about slaves is patently ridiculous - people can leave Dubai whenever they want, and choose to go there to earn far more than they earn in their home countries.

As to the unions argument - well I'd rather live in a place where unions don't bully intimidate and destroy other peoples livelihood to get an unearned, overpaid job doing very little of value.

Not last time I was there 3 weeks ago...

Its flight specific - almost no flights have baggage checks before boarding.

The OP has extrapolated a single personal experience to be something that happens regularly.

Four years of flying in and out of Doha every week and I've not had it done once.

[crewmeal]

It seems some carriers will ensure that your purchased duty free goods will have to be placed into your luggage. How do you do that when you've already checked it in and passed through security? What happens if you want to buy a tablet at duty free price? Still loads of unanswered questions.

[Walnut]

If Emirates provides high net worth pax with company terminals/laptops on board then provided you have downloaded your files on a memory stick then one can continue to work.
Also airlines like Norwegian who have inflight wifi could pioneer something similar

[TWT]

I don't think many travellers would work on their files using an airline provided device.Security of your data would be compromised.

[ZFT]

Just not practical with modern IT security. Complex enough to log on outside of company networks on one's own computers as it is!!

[keitaidenwa]

It amuses me with all the conspiracy theorists and anti-Trumpers that are willing to sacrifice thousands of lives for their beliefs(actually, they disgust me).

But laptop ban is just whack-a-mole action. There are thousands of other ways to carry an terror attack. Blocking one, movie terror scenario, doesn't do anything to improve real security. But it's great security theater!

And thousands of lifes is quite small in the big picture. More lives would be saved *monthly* by banning texting while driving. But lets rather focus on scary foreigners.

[SunchaserMIA]

Just not practical with modern IT security. Complex enough to log on outside of company networks on one's own computers as it is!!



Agree - I definitely would not and could not work on a computer provided externally. You don't have access to your company network or local files. Plus security is a concern.


For business travelers I see more than one problem.
- Often these business trips are 1-2 day trips with carry-on luggage only. Means, people will now be forced to check in luggage. We all know what this means in terms of spending more time at the airport.


- In addition, be it on a layover just before the flight. I won't have access to my devices at all. You cannot work in the lounge or anywhere else from the point you drop your baggage until you arrive at your final port.


- In addition to bags getting stolen, there is also a risk of baggage misconnection or mishandling. We all know this happens, especially on short connx. If a business traveler arrives without his electronic devices, that can make the whole trip obsolete.

[GearDown&Locked]

Skype and the like are going to see a significant increase in network traffic.
Most meetings and presentations can be done remotely, so companies can spare the plane + hotel + taxi + etc expenses with a good excuse.

[Land Hopper]

Slightly late on joining the thread but just to throw a little light on the screening process in Dubai for ALL US bound aircraft:

All hold baggage, irrespective of airline, has to go through the highest level of screening. This is what is referred to as Level 5 and includes each piece having projected images from multiple angles.

Prior to the airport having this category of screening machine, bags were pushed through the baggage system and screened normally. They were loaded on to trolleys and then transferred to a mobile screening machine where they were screened once again. A very laborious and time consuming process. Also, the TSA visited quite a few times to audit how this process was carried out. Evidently screening for both EK and the US carriers (DL/UA when they operated from DXB) was up to the desired standard.

The screening is also carried out by the Police and no other agency, as is the case in many other airports.

The automated baggage system in DXB is world class in terms of tracking, screen images etc. so this should be the least of the worry.

At the gates, EK security check both passengers and baggage as they arrive too.

This whole thing smacks of a ruse to screw over the ME3 and just to make life difficult and inconvenience the passengers. Very childish indeed.

[powerless]

As s simple SLF for years I have packed my laptop and other electronics in my hold baggage, too lazy to drag it around at the airport.

Last year coming back from a business trip in Kenya I was told I was not allowed to have electronics in my hold luggage! As I was carrying three devices and their combined weight was over 12Kg I had an interesting conversation with security and eventually allowed to leave it in the hold baggage.

Maybe I'm not so important as other people but can manage both short an long haul flights without the need to access my laptop but are some airlines against it and what if you are transiting from one that says no through somewhere it must be in the hold?

[ZFT]

Skype and the like are going to see a significant increase in network traffic.
Most meetings and presentations can be done remotely, so companies can spare the plane + hotel + taxi + etc expenses with a good excuse.

Many companies do not permit Skype and the like again for perceived lack of security so I doubt this.

[Dubaian]

Land Hopper thanks for your info re screening at Dubai. Answers at least partly a question I posed on page 2 of the topic and perhaps explains why UK has NOT restricted electronic devices from Dubai (and Abu Dhabi & Qatar).

[Ian W]

This forum as we are repeatedly told - is for 'professional pilots' apart from Jammed Stab and a very few others it seems that there are some 'professional pilots' that have an extremely limited grasp of the measures that professional security staff and military special forces take to keep you safe in the air. The immediate fall back to it must be something political or commercial; yet someone has lost their life find out information on a terrorist attack in the late stages of organization that would probably have resulted in several of your fellows dying. The countermeasures may be clumsy but they will have disrupted the planning of the 'event'. Instead of thanks the majority here seem to have more belief in shallow conspiracy theories. I can only imagine what would have been said in the March before 9/11 if more detailed searches of pax hand baggage and bans on knives and box cutters had been proposed. The same people would presumably have ranted about Bush deliberately trying to break the airline industry.

Believe it or not there are people trying to save your lives and who sometimes lose theirs in the process. They must occasionally wonder why they bother.

[marie paire]

Pilferage of laptops is a common occurrence. The last time my daughter on way back from school in Europe packed her laptop with checked in luggage id didn't arrive. While working in the airline industry some years ago this was one of the most common occurrences reported to us. Unfortnately, as with most of the things coming out of the USA these days, the directive is half baked. That the UK chooses to copy the US instead of working through EASA is sign of things to come. Not encouranging at all.:rolleyes:

[OldLurker]

Perhaps worth observing that, as in other cases of security theatre, this ban may have little effect on the actual people who impose it, if they themselves travel in government aircraft where the same restrictions aren't applied, or in bizjets where either the restrictions also aren't applied, or if they are, hold baggage handling is such that theft and damage are unlikely.

[GearDown&Locked]

@ZFT

There are secure solutions regarding teleconferencing (less known to the general public) that can be easely implemented for the price of a single business trip.

[Ian W]

Unfortnately, as with most of the things coming out of the USA these days, the directive is half baked. That the UK chooses to copy the US instead of working through EASA is sign of things to come. Not encouranging at all.:rolleyes:

Handling of terrorist threats is not within the EASA remit European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) - SKYbrary Aviation Safety (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/European_Aviation_Safety_Agency_(EASA)) . The handling of responses to terrorist threats is the remit of law enforcement and the intelligence agencies.

[eal401]

Believe it or not there are people trying to save your lives and who sometimes lose theirs in the process. They must occasionally wonder why they bother.

In which case, there'd be a blanket ban on all routes, for all devices. Not a case where I can fly with a laptop on an indirect flight from a specified destination, but not a direct flight.

[marie paire]

Handling of terrorist threats is not within the EASA remit European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) - SKYbrary Aviation Safety (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/European_Aviation_Safety_Agency_(EASA)) . The handling of responses to terrorist threats is the remit of law enforcement and the intelligence agencies.
You are right. I should have mentioned the European Institutions instead. It was indeed the Commission that issued the rule on transportation of liquids. One way or the other, the spirit of the message remains the same.

[Land Hopper]

Dubaian,

Is there anything that i can at least attempt to provide an answer for in regards to any other questions about DXB?

[TLDNMCL]

@ZFT

There are secure solutions regarding teleconferencing (less known to the general public) that can be easely implemented for the price of a single business trip.

Indeed there are, very realistic ones too, but they don't allow for time zone differences (large ones). Been down that road! :sad:

[Wannabe Flyer]

http://nation.com.pk/national/23-Mar-2017/pia-says-unaffected-by-electronics-ban-on-us-bound-flights

[Heathrow Harry]

and they are rarely reliable unless you use them often - too often someone is cut-out or just can't see the presentations or..................

and you never get the gossip on a teleconference

[GearDown&Locked]

True, thats why I've mentioned most of the meetings / presentations.

Timezones are in fact a real problem when dealing with teleconferencing (got that t-shirt too) :{

[old,not bold]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, but I still am puzzled by the notion that making a bomber check his bomb into the hold instead of carrying it into the cabin is a great advance in security. The examination of these items is more effective, or potentially more effective in a passenger search channel than in a hold baggage search channel. And with the popularity of committing suicide to demonstrate a commitment to Allah, the old hold baggage reconciliation no longer makes a difference.

And I also still don't fully understand why it is suddenly quite safe to have a hold full of lithium batteries, many probably working hard while running computers in stand-by mode rather than off. If the bomb doesn't get you, the hold fire will.

[A Squared]

This is going to be very difficult to police. Most airports have a common security check, regardless of the airline or destination. It would be easy for someone with a non UK airline and destination to bring a laptop through and then give it to a UK bound passenger.
The only way to police this is to have an extra security check at the gate, including a scanner. How long will it take to set this up, and how many gates have the space to do this? What do the airline staff do if they find a laptop as the passenger's bag will already be in the hold?Hand baggage check prior to boarding in a secure area. Already happens in Doha and Singapore.

And Dubai, and Schipol (for US bound flights)

[ZFT]

True, thats why I've mentioned most of the meetings / presentations.

Timezones are in fact a real problem when dealing with teleconferencing (got that t-shirt too) :{

Yes, all of the above too.

[ExXB]

NEW U.S. DOMESTIC BAGGAGE SCREENING PROCEDURE FOR CERTAIN ARRIVING INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS

Today*, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) announced it is implementing a new baggage screening procedure for select flights departing from 10 specific foreign airports and arriving at 14 specific U.S. airports. All checked passenger luggage on these select flights will be screened by the TSA (via machine or canine) before being reunited with the passenger. Passengers with connecting flights will then reclaim their luggage for transfer to their connecting flights. TSA indicates that these bags will need to be screened a second time before the connecting flight. The specific arriving flights selected for screening will vary and not all arriving flights from these foreign airports will be screened.

The new requirement only affects certain flights departing for the United States from the following 10 specific airports:

· Queen Alia International Airport (AMM)
· Cairo International Airport (CAI)
· Ataturk International Airport (IST)
· King Abdul-Aziz International Airport (JED)
· King Khalid International Airport (RUH)
· Kuwait International Airport (KWI)
· Mohammed V Airport (CMN)
· Hamad International Airport (DOH)
· Dubai International Airport (DXB)
· Abu Dhabi International Airport (AUH)

And arriving at the following 14 specific U.S. airports:

· Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL)
· Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD)
· Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW)
· Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport (FLL)
· George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH)
· John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK)
· Logan International Airport (BOS)
· Los Angeles International Airport (LAX)
· Miami International Airport (MIA)
· Orlando International Airport (MCO)
· Philadelphia International Airport (PHL)
· San Francisco International Airport (SFO)
· Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA)
· Washington Dulles International Airport (IAD)

The new screening procedure will be effective 24 March 2017.

*23 March 2017

It looks like the ME3/TK/etc's MCT on both ends of the route are in the toilet.

[jugofpropwash]

If they're screening on both ends, they're looking for something besides a bomb in a laptop....

[Kewbick]

Yes indeed...and I am sure that a poster on this forum is about to let the terrorists know just what that is...

[eal401]

NEW U.S. DOMESTIC BAGGAGE SCREENING PROCEDURE FOR CERTAIN ARRIVING INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS


Well, this undermines this whole farce even more. Utter lunacy.

[crewmeal]

As an Apple user what I can't understand is why iPads are banned and yet the iPhone 6/7 plus is allowed. The difference in screen size is about 2 inches if you have an iPad mini. Looking at my 9.7inch iPad and comparing both, they are sealed units and both are as thin as each other.

Would someone from the State Dept/MI5 please elaborate.

[Longtimer]

Where is that notice to be found? I checked the TSA site and there is no mention of inbound screening.

NEW U.S. DOMESTIC BAGGAGE SCREENING PROCEDURE FOR CERTAIN ARRIVING INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS

Today*, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) announced it is implementing a new baggage screening procedure for select flights departing from 10 specific foreign airports and arriving at 14 specific U.S. airports. All checked passenger luggage on these select flights will be screened by the TSA (via machine or canine) before being reunited with the passenger. Passengers with connecting flights will then reclaim their luggage for transfer to their connecting flights. TSA indicates that these bags will need to be screened a second time before the connecting flight. The specific arriving flights selected for screening will vary and not all arriving flights from these foreign airports will be screened.

The new requirement only affects certain flights departing for the United States from the following 10 specific airports:

· Queen Alia International Airport (AMM)
· Cairo International Airport (CAI)
· Ataturk International Airport (IST)
· King Abdul-Aziz International Airport (JED)
· King Khalid International Airport (RUH)
· Kuwait International Airport (KWI)
· Mohammed V Airport (CMN)
· Hamad International Airport (DOH)
· Dubai International Airport (DXB)
· Abu Dhabi International Airport (AUH)

And arriving at the following 14 specific U.S. airports:

· Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL)
· Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD)
· Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW)
· Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport (FLL)
· George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH)
· John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK)
· Logan International Airport (BOS)
· Los Angeles International Airport (LAX)
· Miami International Airport (MIA)
· Orlando International Airport (MCO)
· Philadelphia International Airport (PHL)
· San Francisco International Airport (SFO)
· Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA)
· Washington Dulles International Airport (IAD)

The new screening procedure will be effective 24 March 2017.

*23 March 2017

It looks like the ME3/TK/etc's MCT on both ends of the route are in the toilet.

[AI23B]

I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but transferring an explosive device from the cabin to the hold will achieve nothing in the event of detonation - obviously.
So what is the real reason for this?
Perhaps this explanation is the most believable - since it involves money.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/03/21/trump-wont-allow-you-to-use-ipads-or-laptops-on-certain-airlines-heres-the-underlying-story/?utm_term=.c6a9f53c8cdd

[Mr Magnetic]

Yes indeed...and I am sure that a poster on this forum is about to let the terrorists know just what that is...

Presumably the terrorists already know?

[Jet II]

If they're screening on both ends, they're looking for something besides a bomb in a laptop....

increased losses for EK and QR?

[jugofpropwash]

As an Apple user what I can't understand is why iPads are banned and yet the iPhone 6/7 plus is allowed. The difference in screen size is about 2 inches if you have an iPad mini. Looking at my 9.7inch iPad and comparing both, they are sealed units and both are as thin as each other.

Would someone from the State Dept/MI5 please elaborate.

What's the difference in actual computing power between a phone and a good tablet these days? I'm assuming that a complex program would require a laptop or at least an iPad/Windows tablet, rather than something running Android?

[ExXB]

Where is that notice to be found? I checked the TSA site and there is no mention of inbound screening.It was circulated by IATAs Washington office. I don't get these notices myself but someone that does forwarded it to me.

I agree the notice hasn't appeared elsewhere. So it may be in error, and if so apologies.

[Comoman]

"TSA will increase explosives detection screening of passenger luggage on select international inbound flights upon domestic arrival. The screening will occur prior to releasing the luggage back to passengers. It is possible that this process may result in delays for connecting luggage."

Source: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/03/21/qa-aviation-security-enhancements-select-last-point-departure-airports-commercial

Seems to validate your info.

[Longtimer]

It was circulated by IATAs Washington office. I don't get these notices myself but someone that does forwarded it to me.

I agree the notice hasn't appeared elsewhere. So it may be in error, and if so apologies. Thanks, it does appear to fit with the current procedures.

[configsafenot]

Question regarding this new rule...

If, for example, you are already away from home on a multiple country holiday and you took your laptop and/or tablet with you before this new rule came into being and your flight home is from one of the countries listed as laptop/tablet banned.....where would you stand in regard to getting your laptop/tablet home?

Would you be forced to send it home by post/courier or would you be allowed to take it into the flight since you could prove that the outward flight was well before the introduction of the new ruling?

[Mr Magnetic]

Have you read any of the previous posts, or the linked articles?

[configsafenot]

Have you read any of the previous posts, or the linked articles?

Yes

However, its still as clear as muddy dishwater

There are airlines refusing to implement the rule, others distancing themselves and some who's ground staff shrug shoulders with an "I know nothing" when asked

A friend of mine is away at the moment and will be flying back from Egypt and they have a laptop and are understandably confused by the whole issue

Implement a rule but at least try and make it easy to understand and act upon and have everyone reading from the same page in the same book cos if the airlines are confused, the poor buggers who fly with them have absolutely no chance of understanding any of it

[Genghis the Engineer]

What's the difference in actual computing power between a phone and a good tablet these days? I'm assuming that a complex program would require a laptop or at least an iPad/Windows tablet, rather than something running Android?

Not enough difference to be significant - the power in a high end phone nowadays is far in excess of what I had in a laptop ten years ago, and very few of us really need more power now than then.

The real difference from a working viewpoint are screen size and ability to add a sensible sized keyboard.

The obvious difference from a security viewpoint is that a larger device has more volume to hide stuff in (and that it wouldn't take a particularly expert engineer to use a phone in a tablet case to free up all that volume to hide stuff in.)

G

[Basil]

Question regarding this new rule...

If, for example, you are already away from home on a multiple country holiday and you took your laptop and/or tablet with you before this new rule came into being and your flight home is from one of the countries listed as laptop/tablet banned.....where would you stand in regard to getting your laptop/tablet home?

Would you be forced to send it home by post/courier or would you be allowed to take it into the flight since you could prove that the outward flight was well before the introduction of the new ruling?
Just put it in your checked baggage.

[infrequentflyer789]

Question regarding this new rule...

If, for example, you are already away from home on a multiple country holiday and you took your laptop and/or tablet with you before this new rule came into being and your flight home is from one of the countries listed as laptop/tablet banned.....where would you stand in regard to getting your laptop/tablet home?

Would you be forced to send it home by post/courier or would you be allowed to take it into the flight since you could prove that the outward flight was well before the introduction of the new ruling?

Partly answered in social media conversations I have seen quoted in the news where travellers already abroad were being told that:

(a) yes your laptops/tablets that went outbound in cabin must return in hold
(b) yes if you went outbound with cabin baggage only you will need to pay extra for that hold baggage (and presumably buy another bag)

This is for UK version of the ban. Notably no one was explaining who accepts liability for the items as airline typically won't, and travel insurance bought before the ban will also typically regard the passenger as negligent / acting-at-own-risk for putting them in the hold even when required to do so by the airline/security.

If the ban becomes long-term, liability will actually be the major issue - not pax being deprived of valuables for the duration of flight but rather being deprived permanently or banned from taking them. A system which tells pax that (some of) your valuables _must_ go in the hold _and_ that we don't accept responsibility for them you must insure them, when the insurance industry that says valuables _must_ go in the cabin to be insured, because in the hold is too high risk... is effectively a ban on travelling with them at all.

[G-CPTN]

About ten years ago, I had a laptop that needed to be returned under warranty for repair.
A courier arrived with a hard-shelled case that was filled with foam padding and the laptop was dropped (gently) in the case, the case was sealed and the combination was taken away (with appropriate identification of sender and destination attached).

It worked so well - maybe airlines could lease out cases that could then be 'thrown' into a cargo hold without risking damage (or theft) of the contents?

[DaveReidUK]

It worked so well - maybe airlines could lease out cases that could then be 'thrown' into a cargo hold without risking damage (or theft) of the contents?

I'd suggest it worked well only because your consignment was under the jurisdiction of the courier for the entire journey from door to door.

If there's one thing I can think of that would be worse than being forced to put my laptop in my hold baggage, it would be packaging it separately and clearly indicating on the outside of the package what the contents are - my expectation of ever seeing it again after a flight would be close to zero.

[G-CPTN]

I'd suggest it worked well only because your consignment was under the jurisdiction of the courier for the entire journey from door to door.

Almost true, however, the courier who collected the item was a local (ie not national/international) firm and the laptop was going from England to Germany.
Admittedly it was 'faulty' (and therefore of lesser value) - but the packaging did not declare that (unless you looked inside the sealed box - or deduced that it was being returned for repair).

I was impressed by the efficiency (of a courier turning up within a couple of hours of my call and saying "Just put it in here, Mate."
No fuss, no sweat.

[ExXB]

Laptop cabin ban 'ineffective' says IATA

Laptop cabin ban 'ineffective' says IATA (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/39425532)

[configsafenot]

The new rule won't work cos too many business folk will kick up a storm at check in over it and since alot of airlines earn megabucks from the business community, they won't bite the hand that feeds

In theory its a good rule but as with most things done as a kneejerk it never really works out in practice and ends up being binned

[BEagle]

An interesting article from a couple of years ago:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2015/03/airline-subsidies-gulf

:hmm:

[ExXB]

Configssafenot - interesting handle btw.

I doubt that 'storms at check-in' is going to be the real challenge. Anyone with a laptop or tablet is giung to be aware of the ban. They may not be happy with it, but they won't be ignorant of it.

The real challenge to the ME3/TK and a few others is that business customers will be booking away from them. Not on the US3, as they don't fly everywhere their customers want to go, but on airlines with 6th freedom connections via their own hubs. If I was at one of the affected airlines I would be monitoring my future bookings and cancellations.

There is no way for anyone else to monitor what the real impact is, but keep an eye on business class prices. This will be an indication of how hard they are hurting.

This applies in Economy as well as some, likely a lower percentage, want to be on-line all the time. They likely will go via Europe and/or pay a little more for the privilege.

[OldLurker]

I doubt that 'storms at check-in' is going to be the real challenge. Anyone with a laptop or tablet is giung to be aware of the ban..It will be a minor challenge to the check-in and security people. Some pax, aware or not, will turn up with their devices and argue with the staff. I suspect the most time will be wasted by parents whose kiddies must have their iPads or they'll go ape (the kiddies, not the iPads). Such kiddies will probably go ape at some point in the flight anyway - I dread being seated anywhere near that kind of family.

This applies in Economy as well as some, likely a lower percentage, want to be on-line all the time.Yes, because many of us now have to fly economy instead of business. Whether or not we want to be on-line (connected to the internet) all the time, many of us do want to get some work done during the flight. Personally I don't do any of the affected countries at present, but if I did, I'd certainly fly via somewhere like Schiphol or CDG.

As far as I can make out, whatever the US said at first, the US ban (https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/03/21/qa-aviation-security-enhancements-select-last-point-departure-airports-commercial) now applies to all direct flights from certain countries (they list airports, but AFAIK those are the only ones with direct flights from those countries), while the UK ban (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/additional-hand-luggage-restrictions-on-some-flights-to-the-uk) applies to all direct flights from a different set of countries. Go figure, as they say.

[JEM60]

Flew out of Aqaba with Thomson last night. My hold baggage was 'X rayed', but not opened. My wife had her tablet in her hold baggage, it was 'X rayed', found to be there, and she had to take it out, then switch it on and off in front of the Security guard. She could then have had it in her hand luggage, but chose not to do so. It took little time to get all pax through, and was not as difficult as we thought when on the Cruise ship.

[Basil]

I guess docs could be printed and ammended/answered by hand and typed up later - less so with spreadsheets :sad:

[STBYRUD]

One of the core issues for us is the question if crew are included in this ban or not - the official announcements completely omit any mention of crews. I am curious, if you work for any of the affected airlines, have your employers put rules in place not to take PEDs with you on US or UK flights?

[Denti]

Even more interesting, if you have to use notebooks or tablets as part of your flight deck duties, are you allowed to continue to use them or not? Or do the affected carriers have to go back to paper documentation?

[ExXB]

http://www.pprune.org/9715466-post140.html

EY have announced they will be loaning iPads to their F/J passengers as well. Must be some security involved, but a good move.

[STBYRUD]

Thanks ExXB - could you send me a quotable source for that? I have a few people to convince in middle management :*

[bjones4]

In a similar move to Etihad, Qatar have announced their 'Laptop Loan' service for Business class passengers where you can pick up a Laptop at the gate for use throughout the flight.

[India Four Two]

Just checked in online for an Air Canada flight YYC-FRA

Portable electronic devices and spare batteries MUST be carried in the cabin

My emphasis. Ironically, I was planning to check one of the two laptops I'm carrying, to avoid the security hassle.

[aox]

I'd suggest it worked well only because your consignment was under the jurisdiction of the courier for the entire journey from door to door.

If there's one thing I can think of that would be worse than being forced to put my laptop in my hold baggage, it would be packaging it separately and clearly indicating on the outside of the package what the contents are - my expectation of ever seeing it again after a flight would be close to zero.

Indeed, but even ordinary couriers can lose a laptop.

A friend sent an aircraft part to a customer, in an old box with PC written on the outside.

It never arrived.

[configsafenot]

Here's one airline circumventing in style......

Qatar Airways to offer free laptops on US flights | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4364870/Qatar-Airways-offer-free-laptops-US-flights.html)

[OldLurker]

Hm. Daily Mail's good for a heads-up, maybe, but for more information go to the source: Qatar Airways Offers Free Laptops On U.S. Flights (http://www.qatarairways.com/uk/en/press-release.page?pr_id=pressrelease_laptop). Business class only, of course.

But, but ... No information in the press release about security, digital or physical; certainly no guarantees. They say "bring your USB stick and plug it into our laptop." Yeah, right. No sane person would take up such an offer. What software is on the laptop? Am I certain that my data won't be copied for industriual espionage or social-engineering scams? No. Am I certain that no hidden software will be installed on my USB stick and propagated onto my company's network? No.
They say "we'll load your prohibited electronic item as check-in baggage and return it safely to you on arrival to the US." Really? On arrival your vital laptop, full of your company's confidential data (and maybe yours) is missing. They say "Sorry, your laptop failed to arrive. We'll locate it and get it to you as soon as possible." Finally they admit that it's lost (they won't admit, stolen) and offer you as little as they can get away with for the purchase price of an equivalent laptop. Gee, thanks for nothing.
OK, Qatar Airways have a reputation to lose, but it might be some time, if ever, before people discover that their data have been stolen or that trojans have been installed on their USB sticks.

One remote possibility: bring a bootable USB stick with plenty of memory, such that you can work entirely from it without needing the hard disk, and a screwdriver set, and knowledge of how to do the following: After takeoff, check [1] whether their laptop can be booted from a USB stick, and if so [2] whether the hard disk can be removed (i.e. it's not a modified laptop with access inside the case prevented). If yes to both, carefully remove the hard disk, then boot from your USB stick and get on with your work. Before landing, replace the hard disk. Even that's not 100% secure, but hacking would need extra skill and sophistication.

However, there's something positive: read to the end and you'll see that Qatar Airways is providing an hour of free wi-fi for everyone and only $5 for the whole flight.

[GrahamO]

Or just buy one of these

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002OKCXE

You'll cope.

[notapilot15]

Loaner iPads/Laptops with free WiFi definitely helps with internet browsing. Not much work cannot be done because most companies won't allow work on loaner laptops.

Any news on how this ban is impacting Fly America traffic. I am sure they won't like their laptops in the hold.

[A Squared]

I don't see that there'd be any effect at all. The Fly America Act already require that someone travelling for the US government to say, Dubai, would fly on a US carrier instead of Emirates. Of course, no US carriers fly direct to and from Dubai, They'd be required to fly KLM to AMS and then Delta to the US (For example) so this ruling wouldn't affect them.

That's what people are finding suspiciously convenient about this move. Maybe there's good security reasons, maybe there's not. But there's no denying that it is a significant inconvenience to passengers flying Emeriates/Ethiad/Quatar, but doesn't inconvenience passengers flying to the same destinations on US airlines and their partners.

[NWstu]

Not true, B6 code shares with Emirates thus Government travel is permitted on the six US-Dubai Emirates non-stops much to the chagrin of DL and UA, which dropped their routes from KIAD and KATL shortly after B6 (er, EK) won the route.

Link (https://www.emirates.com/us/english/plan_book/corporate-travel/)

[Mike Flynn]

People vote with their feet and I know from years of pax experinece that ME passengers are not happy leaving their laptops/notebooks and tablets in the hold.

Gulf airlines are the losers in this game.

[A Squared]

Not true, B6 code shares with Emirates thus Government travel is permitted on the six US-Dubai Emirates non-stops much to the chagrin of DL and UA, which dropped their routes from KIAD and KATL shortly after B6 (er, EK) won the route.

Link (https://www.emirates.com/us/english/plan_book/corporate-travel/)

OK, I wasn't aware that Emirates was eligible under a code share. Regardless, does Emirates fly direct from UAE to the US ? Ummm, yes. And are all non-stop flights from UAE to the US required to comply with the "No computers in the cabin directive? Again, yes. Why would that be any different for passengers on US government travel?

[Noxegon]

The point is that they are. This will discourage people from using those routes – and thus send more business back to US-based carriers (since those covered by the law will still have to use an authorised carrier).

[STN Ramp Rat]

Well I had my first experience of the laptop ban today and was pleasantly surprised how efficient it was.

Travelling THY from the Far East over Istanbul. I was hand luggage only I kept my laptop with me on the first flight and arrived at the Gate in Istanbul an hour before departure, there were additional security staff who asked if I had a laptop I said yes and handed it over, they only wanted the laptop no ancillary’s, the laptop was placed in a bubble wrap sleeve to which a limited release tag was attached and placed into one of three dedicated suitcases. I signed to say I had handed it over. A quick check of my baggage to ensure I did not have more than one laptop and I was on board. We departed about 15 minutes late but just prior to pushback I saw the three suitcases escorted across the ramp to the hold with a security guard. On arrival at Heathrow the three suitcases were escorted to a pickup point next two the baggage belt where two staff were handing the laptops over in exchange for the limited release tag.

The entire operation was efficient and secure. I can’t say it was safe because there were three suitcases fully loaded with lithium batteries in the hold. Ironically if I turned up at Heathrow check-in with the three suitcases that heavily loaded with laptops I am certain they would be refused.

[triploss]

One (deliberately or inadvertently) "hot" laptop in that bunch and suddenly you have a much bigger problem on your hands... The UK ban is at least not deliberately targeted only at competitive airlines, but just as stupid as the US one.

[EastMids]

to which a limited release tag was attached attached

In other words TK will not accept liability for loss or damage. Hmmm... Not an acceptable solution IMO

[GrahamO]

I believe he means that the items is not thrown out on general release in the luggage hall, but that you must have a specific luggage tag to be given it.

[STN Ramp Rat]

to be clear, it was a "limited release tag" but a limited release tag that is not filled out correctly is just a tag with a red and white striped border and unless they have filled in the details and had me sign it then it is not limiting their liability and the Montreal convention still applies.

I believe in this case it was simply being used as a manual bag tag. there was no suggestion that they were trying to limit their liability

[LocumStandi]

Not an acceptable solution IMO

IMHO, It works better than having to stuff it in the regular hold baggage with its attendant risks of damage and loss.

[notapilot15]

US treating them at par with others is a hard pill to swallow for "we do it better" crowd,

[Dr Jay]

but just prior to pushback I saw the three suitcases escorted across the ramp to the hold with a security guard.


Assuming those 3 suitcases and the laptops within them were subjected to some "additional" screening methods, can someone explain why those same methods cannot be applied to standard screening protocols that all carry-ons go through now ? Given that the US carriers are not subject to this rule, one would conclude that US carriers are able to do this additional screening.


If this is not the case, is there any safety benefit to physically separating a potential terrorist from his bomb payload ?

[A Squared]

Given that the US carriers are not subject to this rule, one would conclude that US carriers are able to do this additional screening.





Well, once again, US carriers are subject to the rule. It doesn't currently affect any US carriers, because no US carriers are currently offering direct service from any of the airports listed. Presumably, if Delta (for example) were to start up it's DXB-ATL flight, then Delta would be subject to their just like Emirates.

[WHBM]

It doesn't currently affect any US carriers, because no US carriers are currently offering direct service from any of the airports listed.
What a remarkable coincidence.

[A Squared]

Yeah, isn't it though?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that this move isn't targeted at certain operators, just pointing out that whatever "targeting" may be behind it is accomplished by circumstance rather than explicitly naming or exempting carriers.

[notapilot15]

What a remarkable coincidence.

There is no coincidence. Years of dumping capacity by ME3, US3 cannot even run 1 daily vs 25 by ME3.

[SMT Member]

If the price is the same, who on earth would chose to fly DL/UA/AA over EK/EY/QR?

[SeenItAll]

Safety? Crew experience/competence? As we know, it's not for the food and drink.

[Skywards747]

I flew Qatar Airways on a JNB-DOH-BOS itinerary connecting to Air Canada for Toronto. When I was checking in JNB, I was asked whether I have any lap tops / Tablets and when replied in affirmative to both, I was told they should be in my hold baggage. But since I knew of QR policy of taking care of them out of DOH, I told the young lady that I will keep them until DOH. She was ok with that.

I arrived at the departure gate in DOH about 1 hour before STD and was asked by the security whether I have any devices affected by the new regulations and was directed to a temporary counter where they wrap the devices in bubble wrap and put them in a box and then cover the box in plastic and give it back to you to take it through security. Then the departure gate staff attached a limited release tag and take it off you.

On arrival in BOS, there was QR staff with all those boxes and return you the items once verified by the name and the tag number.

The whole process was very efficiently handled by QR staff at both ends. Since I never do any work on aircraft, I didn't really miss the devices especially with the excellent IFE of QR A350.

[tho_mm]

Does anyone have experience of whether the ban applies to large video cameras, satphones etc? US DHS says it does. BA says it doesn't and EK didn't know.

[Ian W]

The detailed text I saw said any electronic device larger than a cell phone. I suspect that applies to 'readers' like Kindle/Nook and to small tablets. It is one of those areas that even a written undertaking from your carrier can be overruled by security at the airport.

[ExXB]

Careful. UK and US rules differ. EK/DHS can only comment on US rules, while BA only on UK rules.

It helps to confuse the terrorists ..., and everyone else.

[Mike Flynn]

I pax a lot from UK to Asia. Bottom line the cost of flying direct is minimal compared to the hassle of Middle East carriers.

However I feel this is a commercial stance aimed at reigning the likes of Emirates flying to the USA.

[ZFT]

Is it that minimal? The UK pax duty alone is quite significant

[Consol]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/us-may-ban-laptops-on-flights-from-uk-airports-1.3060469?mode=amp

UK flights next?

[ZFT]

Which country missed a handgun and ammo in hand luggage last week?

Maybe UK should review their capabilites?

[PAXboy]

We are so lucky to have our Special Relationship that our dear prime minister ensured she could maintain by holding hands with kid in the White House ...

Now reported in The Guardian too: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/25/us-considers-banning-laptops-on-flights-from-uk-airports

[Less Hair]

Better order some more A318s for future transatlantic flights now.