Citywing incident Isle of Man

[lfc84]

Citywing is what was onces know as Manx2

citywing belfast has just landed ............



Told to shut down in position by the iom caa !



Fire service at aircraft passengers being bussed to terminal runway closed.



Never heard that .. " from iom caa shut down in position !"




q) egtt/qfalc/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5405n00437w005
b) from: 17/02/23 10:00c) to: 17/02/23 13:00 est

e) aerodrome closed due blocked runway

[DaveReidUK]

Thursday, February 23rd, 2017 11:26am

http://news.manxradio.com/415632-1.jpg

Citywing aircraft on runway

Ronaldsway Airport is closed until 1pm after an incident involving a Citywing aircraft.

The plane took off but then turned back due to the severe gale force winds.

After landing it remained on the runway and emergency vehicles attended.

Passengers were safely taken back to the terminal by bus.
Airport closed until early afternoon - Manx Radio (http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/airport-closed-until-early-afternoon/)

[HeartyMeatballs]

The sprit of Manx2 lives on...

[hobbit1983]

Rather interesting allegation to make?

[planedrive]

Not a shock at all. Shameful operation hope it's shut down completely.

[lfc84]

23rd February 2017

STATEMENT ON INCIDENT ON THE 23rd OF FEBRUARY AND FLIGHT UPDATES FOR THE 24th OF FEBRUARY

Citywing can confirm that Van Air-operated flight 502 took off from the Isle of Man destined for Belfast on Thursday morning but returned due to deteriorating weather conditions in Northern Ireland.

Citywing have been advised by Van Air that the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has requested to speak with Van Air following the incident. Until such discussions take place, hopefully within the next 24-48 hours, the UK CAA has asked Van Air to stop flying. Unfortunately this means that all Citywing flights will be affected until further notice.

David Buck, Managing Director of Citywing said, “Passenger safety has to be the first priority and all such incidents are rightly investigated as a matter of routine. We are working with the flight operator Van Air and relevant authorities to resolve the situation as soon as possible.

Due to this operational disruption Van Air has chartered in a Stansted based Titan Airways 737 to operate the following flights.

V9514 IOM-BELFAST STD1400 STA1430 to accommodate all Isle of Man to Belfast passengers for the day.

V9515 BELFAST-IOM STD1510 STA1540 to accommodate all Belfast to Isle of Man passengers for the day.

V9814 IOM-NEWCASTLE STD1620 STA1655 to accommodate all Isle of Man to Newcastle, Isle of Man to Glasgow and all Isle of Man to Blackpool passengers. Passengers for Glasgow and Blackpool will be provided with surface transport to their destination.

“We apologise in advance for the disruption this will cause to travel plans. We will do our best to keep passengers informed and would ask for your patience and understanding as we deal with this difficult situation at short notice.”

In the first instance this only affects flights for the 24th of February. Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers but this may take time so we request your patience and understanding. If you have an urgent question please contact our Reservations on tel no: 0871 200 0440 who will be available between 0900 and 1700.

ENDS

NOTES TO EDITORS:
Citywing Aviation Services Ltd, “Citywing”, is an Isle of Man-based company arranging air services from the Isle of Man to Belfast, Blackpool, Glasgow, Newcastle, Gloucester and Jersey. Citywing and its partners employ 50 staff on the Island and carry in excess of 70,000 passengers per year.

Issued by Citywing.

Martin Norbury
Isle of Man Advertising and Public Relations Limited Tel: (01624) 620440

[HeartyMeatballs]

Do tell Hobbit. Apart from the name, what has changed since Manx2? From what I see it's an almost identical setup is it not? How has the organisation structure and the passenger/agent/airline (which was criticised at the time of their deadly accident) relationship changed since that tragic day?

[Barcli]

Unfortunately Kenfoggo , the same way that the Russian national airline operates French aircraft with Russian crew using FCOM,s written in English referring to aircraft registered in the Cayman Islands and Bermuda !

[lfc84]

Citywing has the same address, same people as manx2

David Buck:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-buck-92526138

Noel Hayes, who has deleted his manx2 role

https://www.linkedin.com/in/noel-hayes-39517317/


Change of ownership and rebrand for Manx2.com - Manx Radio (http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/change-of-ownership-and-rebrand-for-manx2-com/)

[LGW Vulture]

And people moan that this industry is "over regulated". :ugh:

[Tu.114]

What did actually happen here to warrant such a reaction from the authority?

As far as I understand the posts here, the aircraft departed IOM for BFS. So far, so normal. The crew found the weather at BFS not to their liking, so they returned to IOM, which, I presume, was either their nominated alternate or well within their endurance. Again, this is not extraordinary.

But then it gets odd. The aircraft has landed rather normally, appears to be in one piece and not in an unusual position/attitude. Noone mentioned anything about a declared emergency either. It is nevertheless surrounded by emergency vehicles and was told not by ATC, but by CAA, to shut down in position and desist from moving the aircraft under its own power. This would normally, in case of an emergency, be the Captains call and noone elses. And to top this off, the airline has been shut down, at least temporarily, rather quickly.

Why?

[runway30]

I presume that the CAA wanted to inspect the aircraft without allowing anyone else access to it. In the IOM Van Air is a foreign airline, IOM not being part of the EU, but in the U.K. I would have thought that the CAA can ground individual aircraft but not a carrier properly licensed in another EU country.

[Dufo]

It is possible that due to severe winds they were able to land but not taxi and requested to disembark at the runway then got the plane towed.

[runway30]

This has been presented as an instruction rather than Captain's decision.

[Tu.114]

If the authority wants to inspect the aircraft, why not choose the traditional way of subjecting it to a SAFA ramp check? If, for some reason, they feel the need for extra safety, they might as well encircle it with police cars and, possibly, escort it from the runway to the parking stand as well.

This story leaves me with a huge question mark over my head...

[ATC Watcher]

Something is missing here I agree. The airline talk about an " incident" but a diversion is not an incident, Also why send emergency vehicles to meet the aircrfat on the taxi way ?
As Tu.114 says : it was a CAA inspection they may use police cars , not fire fighting equipment.
Or did they do something odd on departure or in Belfast ?

[Back at NH]

METARs for departure from IOM....

EGNS 230820Z 29029G42KT 5000 -RA FEW006 BKN009 BKN022 07/05 Q0975 TEMPO 3000 RA BKN007

...and arrival back.

EGNS 230920Z 30042G56KT 4000 RA FEW005 BKN011 BKN033 05/03 Q0979 TEMPO 3000 BKN006

From a rumour I have heard, these may be relevant.

[Tu.114]

What is the runway orientation at IOM, and what is the crosswind limit of the Let?

[Dct_Mopas]

Runway 26, and I think it was mentioned a x-wind limit of 20knots. Also runway 21 is useable by the Let.

[Sillert,V.I.]

If the wind was 30042G56KT, I wouldn't have thought 21 was useable by anything.

[Daysleeper]

what is the crosswind limit of the Let?

In 42G56, it probably doesn't matter.

Wonder what the TAF said.

[runway30]

TAF EGNS 230800Z 2309/2318 30030G45KT 9999 SCT007 BKN014
TEMPO 2309/2311 32036G55KT 3000 RA SHRA BKN007
PROB30 TEMPO 2311/2318 6000 SHRA
BECMG 2316/2318 31025=

I don't see how they could avoid taking action

[foxmoth]

In 42G56, it probably doesn't matter.

If that is straight down the runway it will be OK and something a proffesional pilot should be able to cope with, though here it was not down the runway - but very surprising if the authorities got a hand on it THIS quickly!!

[Daysleeper]

If that is straight down the runway it will be OK

Just as oranges are not the only fruit , crosswinds are not the only wind limits and you could practically have flown a steam-packet ferry as a kite in those winds.

[learner001]

An aircraft landed during winds straight down the runway, just before a huge storm was going to hit the airport.

Getting off the runway, perpendicular to the high winds, was considered not desirable as the upwind wing could have been lifted.

Remaining on the runway, the aircraft 'jumped' due to lift created by the same high winds.

Two firetrucks were parked in front of the aircraft, close up against the wings as a precaution to 'spoil' the lift and prevent the aircraft from 'jumping'.

After about fifteen minutes the weather had passed and the aircraft taxied uneventfully to the ramp.

[runway30]

So if everything was so routine, why was the airline grounded?

[speedrestriction]

I have always thought that safety was improved incrementally on the basis of learning from past errors and experience.

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/let-410-uvp-e-ok-uba-18-january-2007

[foxmoth]

Just as oranges are not the only fruit , crosswinds are not the only wind limits and you could practically have flown a steam-packet ferry as a kite in those winds.

Really not understanding what you are saying here - if the wind is down the runway you CAN take off and land, though you do need to be aware of gusts, may have problems with taxiing and may even have limits with opening doors but the TO and landing can still be OK?

[paperHanger]

well, that makes a lot more sense of why the firetrucks were there. sounds like they made a good decision.

[Tu.114]

Were it not for the CAA getting involved, it sounded close to a non-story. The aircraft departed, could not land at its intended destination and diverted back to its departure field. There, due to the strong wind, unusual measures were taken to get the passengers off the aircraft. So far, so good. But this does not explain why the CAA has taken such an interest at shortest notice and why the 737, which surely struggles just the same in these wind conditions was brought in instead.

Something is still odd here.

[DaveReidUK]

So far, so good. But this does not explain why the CAA has taken such an interest at shortest notice and why the 737, which surely struggles just the same in these wind conditions was brought in instead.

I can't answer the first part, but presumably the 737 was chartered because (a) the weather conditions were no longer as severe and (b) its size would allow the passenger backlog from all the cancelled L-410 flights to be cleared more quickly.

[Wickerbill]

And
C) the airline is grounded and Titans 733 is one of the few planes you can charter at short notice in the UK.

[RAT 5]

The winds at IOM seem >20kts X, so what was the weather at BFS? What's the flight time IOM BFS & what was the METAR at departure. DUB has RW28 & 34. Would a diversion there be better than IOM for the pax? Lots of questions, perhaps not the same number of answers.

[foxmoth]

Not sure they were headed for BFS, schedule certainly shows BHD.

[noflynomore]

Could it be that someone was upset enough to have primed the CAA to be standing by for a provable (further) violation?

[PPRuNe Towers]

If you checkout the Airports and Airlines forum there's a claim of bounced landing and missed approach at Belfast before the return to IOM.

Rob

[lfc84]

Van Air remain grounded Sunday and Monday


On another forum it is reported that OK-LAZ will depart IOM to Liège at 0930 on Sunday 26/2/17 as VAA930P

[spongenotbob]

Looks like they leveled off at 3900 approaching Belfast, overflew, then turned back to IOM...

Out:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ok-laz#c8b7dae

Return:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ok-laz#c8b8a3a

[Livesinafield]

Just to point out, there is no approach ban for winds and just because metar says 42G56 doesn't mean they landed in that, at 500 feet could have got a spot wind and it may have been inside limits.

The same day people landed all day at BHX it was right across at 50 most of the day but people landed on instant winds when there was a lull

[lfc84]

this is on the citywing facebook page:

If you were on the plane you'd understand why they are grounded now, the full truth about from Thursday belfast flight hasn't came out yet. Shouldn't have taken of and wasn't allowed to land in belfast despite being 2 foot off the runway in belfast.

[lfc84]

UPDATED: Disruption for Blackpool passengers as flight operator grounded - Blackpool Gazette (http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/updated-disruption-for-blackpool-passengers-as-flight-operator-grounded-1-8409455)

A UK CAA spokesperson said: “The UK Civil Aviation Authority has suspended Czech-registered operator Van Air’s permission to fly in the UK. "This follows an incident involving a Van Air aircraft at Isle of Man Airport on February 23. "The incident is being investigated by the Czech civil aviation authorities, who have regulatory oversight of Van Air. "

[G-CPTN]

Sounds like a mess - how can it be economic to bus passengers between Newcastle and Blackpool and between Blackpool and Liverpool?

[DaveReidUK]

Well compared to the cost of chartering a second 737 from Titan ...

[Livesinafield]

Yes indeed, i suspect if Citiwing carries on chartering Titans 737's for 3 people....it isn't going to last very long

[runway30]

For the purposes of EU261 claims, is grounding by the CAA regarded as an extraordinary event?

[Kewbick]

To answer an earlier question, most LET L-410s have about a 710 nm range, or an approximate 5-hr max endurance. The new L-410NG, awaiting certification in late 2017, will be superior in most aspects, with an endurance of around 9 hrs..

[EGNS26]

Seems the saga continues; Flightradar24 is currently showing Titan G-POWC as scheduled to fly IOM-BHD V9 502 on Tuesday 28th

[lfc84]

Van Air remain grounded 28/2 and 1/3



FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 28 and 29 FEBRUARY 2017
Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Tuesday 28 and Wednesday 01March 2017.
We are currently updating our system so will try and contact passengers regarding flight changes once this is done.
Tuesday 28 February
Tuesday 28 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Saab 340 aircraft operated by Sprint Air at the following times:
V9 506 28 Feb departing Isle of Man at 1110 ( checkin 1010) arriving Belfast City 1145
V9 507 28 Feb departing Belfast City at 1210 (checkin 1110) arriving Isle of Man 1245
All passengers planned to go on other Belfast flights this day will be transferred onto the flight available.
Tuesday 28 February -Glasgow
The Glasgow flight will also be operated by the Sprintair Saab 340 :
V9 408 28 Feb departing Isle of Man 1500 (checkin 1400) arriving Glasgow 1540
V9 409 28 Feb departing Glasgow 1605 (checkin 1505) arriving Isle of Man 1655
All passengers planned to go on the morning Glasgow flights this day will be transferred onto the afternoon flight.
Tuesday 28 February – Gloucester
The Gloucester flight will similarly be operated by the Sprintair Saab 340 :
V9 610 28 Feb departing Isle of Man at 1725 (checkin 1625) arriving Gloucester at 1820 .
V9 611 28 Feb departing Gloucester at 1845 (checkin 1745) arriving Isle of Man 1940
All passengers planned to go on the morning Gloucester flights this day will be transferred onto the afternoon flight.
Tuesday 28 February – Blackpool
Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange any flights for Blackpool. All passengers will be rebooked onto the following day’s flight.
Wednesday 01 March
Wednesday 01 March -Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Saab 340 aircraft operated by Sprint Air at the following times:
V9 506 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1110 (checkin 1010) arriving Belfast City at 1145
V9 507 01 March departing Belfast City at 1210 ( checkin 1110 ) arriving at Isle of Man 1245
All passengers planned to go on other Belfast flights this day will be transferred onto the flight available.
Wednesday 01 March – Blackpool
Operated by Sprintair Saab 340
V9 116 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1540 ( checkin 1440) arriving at Blackpool 1610
V9 117 01 March departing Blackpool at 1635 (checkin 1535) arriving at Isle of Man at 1705
Wednesday 01 March – Gloucester
Operated by Sprintair Saab 340
V9 610 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1730 ( checkin 1630) arriving Gloucester at 1825
V9 611 01 March departing Gloucester at 1850 (checkin 1750) arriving at Isle of Man at 1940
Wednesday 01 March - Glasgow
Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange an aircraft for Glasgow and the flight will be cancelled.
These will be the only flights operated on these days. We will endeavour to contact all passengers to advise of them of these revised arrangements. For flights on the 2nd and 3rd of March we will put out our revised schedule soonest if required.
David Buck, Managing Director of Citywing said, “We apologise for the disruption this is causing to travel plans. We will do our best to keep passengers informed over the next few days. We know that the options available are far from ideal but we wanted to ensure where possible that we can provide an option for all passengers to reach their destinations. We are trying to contact all passengers but it is a huge task so we ask for your patience whilst we do so.”

[Hansol]

I think without doubt this model of operation is broken. Its time the IOM Government woke up to their responsibilities and only allowed fully CAA licenced operators to work from the Island. All credit to the guys and gals at Citywing, they have had a good run, but this shambles should never have been allowed to continue after the Manx2 crash.

[HeartyMeatballs]

If Brexit brings down Manx2 2.0 then it's another huge tick in the Brexit box.

[Rwy in Sight]

HeartyMeatballs,

I am not much of admirer of the EU, but alternatively the UK can harmonize the rules at around the mid-range bidder which would be more useful for all involved. Having said that I love your description of the location!

Feel free to ignore / answer by SMS as not to derail the thread.

[Geriaviator]

According to Manx Radio yesterday the Titan 737 went u/s at Ronaldsway after returning from Belfast, leaving around 60 passengers stranded in Liverpool. They were offered a coach trip to Heysham to catch the night boat for IoM. Must admit the Steam Packet Company becomes more attractive by the minute ....

[His dudeness]

A UK CAA spokesperson said: “The UK Civil Aviation Authority has suspended Czech-registered operator Van Air’s permission to fly in the UK. "This follows an incident involving a Van Air aircraft at Isle of Man Airport on February 23. "The incident is being investigated by the Czech civil aviation authorities, who have regulatory oversight of Van Air. "

Citywing have been advised by Van Air that the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has requested to speak with Van Air following the incident. Until such discussions take place, hopefully within the next 24-48 hours, the UK CAA has asked Van Air to stop flying

So what other AOC holder has been grounded by the CAA after an incident ? Was BA grounded after they drove a wing through a building ?

Double standards and pure racism, me thinks. But thats what the UK is good at for the moment it seems.

And people moan that this industry is "over regulated".

It is, but people like yourself will not stop to lobby further regulation until they made their share from it.

[barry lloyd]

I think some of the posters need to take account of the fact that the Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.

[oldchina]

"Double standards and pure racism, me thinks"


Since when did Czech folk, or Irish, Belgians, Dutch etc. etc. constitute a race?

[HeartyMeatballs]

His dudeness What a hysterical post. Anti British much or a self loather? British Airways vs a two bob turboprop outfit flying for an odd setup, a setup which has had a fatal accident previously and walked away with zero responsibility. Not the same. Not by a long shot.

They can't be that racist if they are allowing a DANISH and a POLISH operator to continue flying for them! So a Czech airline is involved in some incident, they're asked to stop flying pending investigation, the UK CAA then allow Danish and Polish airlines to fly for them in addition to an English one. Yes, that's shocking racism plain and simple.

[Consol]

A good synopsis Hearty.

Here's a link to Ireland AAIU 's investigation of the Cork Manx2 crash. Read and beware, it shows a road map to a fatal accident. Let's hope people can learn from this tragedy.

http://www.aaiu.ie/node/621

[pax britanica]

Well er racism perhaps the wrong word and comparing a tiny Cz outfit to BA is rather extreme but we British are pretty hypocritical when it comes to 'foreigners' and it does seem odd the CAA were on hand like that. What were they doing in IoM anyway , a place which enjoys a weird neither fish nor foul existence being not a state and not a country but somehow survives on hiding peoples money for them.

How that 'airline' survived the Cork crash I cannot imagine so I am not sorry to see a spotlight turned on them again but this whole story seems fishy to me anyway.

Perhaps also a bit of a warning that a Britain out of the EU will resemble a sort of giant Isle of Man living off of tax dodges. Freedom from Eu bureaucracy really means exemption from all kinds of safety legislation , protection of workplace rights, environmental laws etc that allow exactly this kind of dubious practice to flourish.

[HeartyMeatballs]

So leaving the EU is going to make flying less safe as we are going to be exampt from safety legislation? If that is the case, how come the EU have allowed the Manx2 business model to operate? If they were so great and their safety legislation so comprehensive, how does Manx2 live on despite what we learned?

[Super VC-10]

Pax britanica, the Isle of Man is a sovereign country in its own right. It has its own sovereign (the Lord of Mann), parliament, currency and laws. The UK is responsible for managing its defence and foreign affairs. The Isle of Man is not, and never has been, a member of the EEC/EU.

[Nemrytter]

Do we have to turn this into another tedious brexit thread?

[runway30]

Because Hearty, according to the CAA, the ticket seller has no financial or operational responsibility which remains with the airline. However, the ticket seller in this instance has designed the network, set the schedule, decides the capacity, sets the prices and makes operational decisions. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

[Dufo]

British Airways vs a two bob turboprop outfit flying for an odd setup, a setup which has had a fatal accident previously and walked away with zero responsibility. Not the same. Not by a long shot.



Vanair had less fatal accidents than British Airways. None actually.

[runway30]

Yes Dufo, of course Manx2/Citywing have never had a fatal accident because they are just a ticket seller.

[HeartyMeatballs]

British Airways has been operating for decades, carrying tens of millions of passengers every year. It's an airline. It flies its own aircraft on most flights. It has its own safety systems in place. When things go wrong the buck stops with BA. BA don't just mess around saying 'we are just a ticket seller'.

[EGNS26]

Just got a Citywing Reminder for my flight later in the week look at the last two lines note change of airline

Unchecked baggage. You may take one item of hand baggage onto the aircraft free of charge, as long as it fits into the luggage gauge sizer at check-in and weighs less than 6kg. The dimensions of the sizer are: Length: 50cm, Width: 35cm and Height: 22cm including handles and wheels. Any item of baggage larger or heavier than this must be checked in. When you board the aircraft, crew or ground staff will place your hand luggage in the hold unless it is small enough to fit under the seat. You can then collect your hand luggage as soon as you disembark from the aircraft.

P8 Flights operated by Sprint Air.
Cardiff - Anglesey Flights are operated by North Flying.

This is the bottom of the old ticket
Unchecked baggage. You may take one item of hand baggage onto the aircraft free of charge, as long as it fits into the luggage gauge sizer at check-in and weighs less than 6kg. The dimensions of the sizer are: Length: 50cm, Width: 35cm and Height: 22cm including handles and wheels. Any item of baggage larger or heavier than this must be checked in. When you board the aircraft, crew or ground staff will place your hand luggage in the hold unless it is small enough to fit under the seat. You can then collect your hand luggage as soon as you disembark from the aircraft.

Operator Van Air Europe

[Dufo]

Vanair provides ACMI services to Citywing and it had nothing to do with crash in Cork. That was done with another ACMI operator (with crappy safety record). In days of SAFA safety rating, you are quickly on the EU black list and turn the lights off.


Similar (misleading) connection can be seen in news about 'Turkish airlines B747 crash'. Things are not always as they seem..

[runway30]

While we're talking about misleading connections, Dufo, the EU blacklist includes only foreign airlines (outside EU) and not EU licenced carriers.

[Dufo]

If we speak about the List of banned airlines this is true, only non-member states are there. SAFA rating above 4 (if I remember correctly) for member state airlines will ground you under AOC ops.

[pax britanica]

No I am not suggesting leaving or staying in the EU will make flying more or elss safer .- and as the isle of man is not in the Eu but seemingly conforms with Eu regulations it isnt going to make a difference there.It was just a comment about the views on Eu bureaucracy are usually over simplified.

As for the isle of Mans status it is not in the EU but it certainly isn't a country or a state or a nation either. It is a Crown Dependency which allows it to make its own laws but for foreign affairs and defence it depends on and defers to the UK , hence my neither fish nor foul remark.

All of which was intended to underline that the whole business very odd from the start and doesn't seem to have got a lot clearer by now either

[jordan]

I understand that Van Air have had their Operating Licence taken away.

[Senior Paper Monitor]

A rare chance to quote Manx Radio:

Van Air grounded over Storm Doris flight

Problems for Island-based Citywing have deepened, after its carrier Van Air Europe lost its Air Operators Certificate.

The suspension which has grounded the Czech-registered airline, has been confirmed by the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

The move follows an incident last week (23 Feb) in which a Van Air Europe plane operating a flight for ticket seller Citywing, was forced to abandon its landing in Belfast due to deteriorating weather conditions.

The aircraft returned to the Island and landed safely, but was held on the runway for several hours, unable to taxi to the apron, due to the high winds.

All Van Air flights have been grounded since last Thursday and Citywing has had to operate a revised schedule using a second stand-in, Sprint Air.

today (1 March) the company published a further revised schedule for flights to Belfast, Gloucester and Glasgow over the next 48 hours.

Managing Director David Buck says they are working on a long term plan for flights and are refunding people as quickly as they can where appropriate, he has again apologised for the disruption to passengers' travel plans.

Anyone with urgent enquiries should contact Citywing’s Reservations on 0871 200 0440.

[Dufo]

There must be much more than this event which have caused loss of operating license.

[piebaps]

Possibly dufo but all I'm seeing is a poor article by a local radio station.

Avherald said last week that the "The UK CAA added on Feb 25th 2017, that as long as Czech Republic's CAA is investigating, the operating permit has been taken away from Van Air Europe"

The radio article mentions a loss of AOC and a suspension in consecutive sentences. There appears to be no publication of any kind from any CAA.

[EGNS26]

So far - Van Air Europe's Let L-410 are located

OK-TCA 1st March CWL (Cardiff) - LGG (Liege) as VAA730P - UHE (Kunovice, Czech Republic) as VAA731P

OK-LAZ 26th Feb. IOM - LGG as VAA930P - UHE as VAA931P
involved in incident at IOM - 23rd Feb.

OK-RDA 1st March IOM - LGG as VAA930P
presumably on its way to UHE

OK-UBA still at Ronaldsway

OK-ASA Last known in Dubai do in cargo flights

[davidjohnson6]

I have looked carefully on the web for some sort of confirmation that Van Air's AOC has been revoked. I am unable to find anything to confirm this. As a Czech airline, I imagine the Czech CAA would want to publish any revocation of an AOC on their website - nothing obvious appears as yet on the Czech CAA website

I suspect that a journalist at Manx Radio has got confused with the UK CAA blocking air transport permissions in the UK, with the AOC which would be under the jurisdiction of the Czech CAA

If Van Air really had lost their AOC, I imagine the UK and IoM CAA would very quickly prevent anything with a V9 airline code from operating. Flights were still operating for Citywing under the V9 airline code in the early evening of Wed 01-March

Edit - just noticed on flightradar24 that the Anglesey-Cardiff flights which used to be operated by Van Air under a V9 code were operated not just by North Flying using a 19-seat Metroliner, but rather more surprisingly they went under a M3 code and not a V9 code. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/oy-npe
Conversely, flights to/from the Isle of Man using a 34-seat Saab 340 show up on FR24 as operating under a V9 flight code
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/sp-kpr

[peat]

I have always thought that safety was improved incrementally on the basis of learning from past errors and experience.

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/let-410-uvp-e-ok-uba-18-january-2007
I was 1 of 2 people who witnessed that incident (unless ATC saw it as well)
Reading that report downplays the incident alot!

I don't believe for one second the pilot was about to turn around and go back to the gate. He was sitting at a hold and was side on to the wind direction. (Im not a pilot so I don't know whether you are supposed to turn into the wind direction when at a hold).
He was sat there for possibly 20-30 seconds when the wind lifted it to a near vertical position onto its wingtip. Weirdly it then looked and sounded like the pilot put some power on (unless it was some odd noise affect of the wind hitting the a/c or props at that angle?) and the a/c pivoted left on its wing tip whilst moving slightly forward, ran into the grass which made the a/c bounce a bit then drop back onto its wheels. It then carried on perpendicular to the taxiway for approx 5m then came to a stop.

I don't think me or my colleague are drama queens but it was only pure luck that it didn't get blown over from the near vertical.
Fair enough nothing did happen and no-one was hurt but it was shocking to witness it and its more shocking to read that report to see it written out like it was no big deal.
It also seems like they have not learnt from that incident at all.

[Heebicka]

hey, Czech here, local aircraft register is available at Výpis z leteckého rejstøíku (http://portal.caa.cz/letecky-rejstrik) (only Czech version works) but there is nothing interesting about aircrafts, just serials etc and you can see not all the fleet belongs to VanAir.


Our local CAA denied info that they are investigating anything. They stated they are not investigating anything simple because it is not their case. They admit they are in contact with UK CAA but it means providing info and consultations. They don't even have a right to investigate anything in this case. Case = so far everything goes around bad landing.


Local AIR ACCIDENTS INVESTIGATION INSTITUTE (which is not CAA) and is involved in such an investigations here said: "yes, we have a report about landing in bad conditions means strong wind, but we don't have any official statement from any side so far, we just know what was on internet"

[DaveReidUK]

He was sat there for possibly 20-30 seconds when the wind lifted it to a near vertical position onto its wingtip.

I don't think me or my colleague are drama queens but it was only pure luck that it didn't get blown over from the near vertical.That would imply (simple geometry) that all 3 gears lifted off the ground.

It's hard to believe that the resulting damage would be restricted to a crushed tip tank. Are we now suggesting that the UK AAIB are complicit in papering over the cracks in Manx2's operation ?

[peat]

Yes all 3 wheels did lift off the ground.
It did come back down on the grass rather than the taxiway so maybe that's why there was not much damage, I remember it bounced after it came down.

From reading the AAIB report it said the source was the pilots form so maybe they didn't have any other info to go off?

[Consol]

Based on what we do know, the aircraft landed in IOM at just above minimum reserve when the wind was gusting to around 56kts. This was following a diversion from BHD which is quite close. Most of us (myself included) put a bit more than plog fuel on that day. Just saying....

[DaveReidUK]

Yes all 3 wheels did lift off the ground.
It did come back down on the grass rather than the taxiway so maybe that's why there was not much damage, I remember it bounced after it came down.

Fair enough. The other eyewitness must have seen it from a different angle:

Witnessed LET410 being blown to almost tipping over this morning at Ronaldsway waiting at holding point A2.
The aircraft lifted from the tail onto it's left hand side mainwheel, the pilot did well to allow the aircraft to move forward and correct the tip.

[Airbus38]

Does the fact that it was at A2 imply we are talking about something which took place before it even departed IOM in the first place?

[piebaps]

Airbus - we're talking about two separate incidents. The gust at A2 related to an incident from 2007. That aircraft never departed IOM and was towed back to stand.

[Cyrano]

We seem to be talking about two different events, one in 2007 (aircraft being blown sideways on the ground, subject of AAIB report linked to by a previous poster) and another in the last few days.

[Airbus38]

Ahah, I understand now - I'll wake up at some point!

[Karel_x]

I cant understand UK CAA declaration that the incident is investigated by Czech CAA. It is not correct.

In the Czech Republic, local CAA (ÚCL Úřad pro civilní letectví) is the authority for state supervision under civil aviation. The are not allowed to provide any investigation of incidents. Their speaker, Mr. Hezký, declared for media:
"We are in contact with UK CAA that grounded the carrier and which is solving the event. We are trying for cooperation but it is rather giving informations and consultations from our side, in other way we are involved very little. We are not investigating the incident, we have no right to do it."

For investigation of air incidents and accidents ÚZPLN (Ústav pro odborné zjišťování příčin leteckých nehod) is appointed. They investigate evens at Czech territory and air space. According Chicago convention (ICAO), incident and accidents are investigated by the state, at witch territory the event occurs. ÚZPLN don't investigate this British airport incidents.

[Livesinafield]

Out of interest are the companies now operating for Citiwing using the Eurovan callsign?, I was behind a Eurovan call sign into BHD yesterday

[paperHanger]

Based on what we do know, the aircraft landed in IOM at just above minimum reserve when the wind was gusting to around 56kts. This was following a diversion from BHD which is quite close. Most of us (myself included) put a bit more than plog fuel on that day.

Personally I would have stayed on the ground on that particular day, the old adage "it is better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there, wishing you were down here" applies. Had Douglas been out of limits, the alternative endings are not good ... still, with that tailwind, their range downwind would have given them a fair few options inland.

[jijpc]

Out of interest are the companies now operating for Citiwing using the Eurovan callsign?, I was behind a Eurovan call sign into BHD yesterday
Up to now the flights from the Isle of Man which are being operated by Sprintair do appear to be using Eurovan calls signs and VAA flight numbers are quoted on FR24.

The Cardiff -Anglesey service changed flight numbers and call signs to North Flying when they took over the route, presumably as this was an Vanair service operating solely in the U.K. This Welsh service operated under different terms to the IOM services.

[planedrive]

How exactly are Citywing allowed to sell tickets for an aircraft with over 19 seats now? I thought that was one of the 'sticking points' of being a virtual airline with no ATOL etc.

[runway30]

The 2012 revision of the ATOL Regulations defined the role of ticket seller with an exemption to the requirement to hold an ATOL. I'm planning runway30 airlines even as I type................

[Jetscream 32]

If you are wholly responsible for the aircraft cost as a full charter and are selling seat tickets on that aircraft as the only ticket agent then you are in an identical position to an AOC operator operating their own aircraft - that also do not need an ATOL for seat only sales!

Independant oversight of some "less regulated" operators would be more welcome / increased ramp inspections - other than that there is ZERO problem with ticket agents and there is no real need to blow this out of proportion. The LET 410 is a very lightweight aircraft and obviously high wing - knowing the storm was coming - was the error of the ticket agent not to play safe and cancel flights or having their own SOP's or ops manual that defined the weather limits in agreement with the AOC operator "who will fly for food".

Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!

If you are a ticket agent chartering an aircraft you at least need an ops manual and a very structured crisis management plan that dovetails into the AOC operators. Just my opinion!

[Sillert,V.I.]

AIUI, there is a clear distinction between an AOC and an ATOL.

An AOC is there to protect the passenger's lives; an ATOL is there to protect the passenger's money.

Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions.

Evidence of a lack of effective operational oversight by the AOC holder would, in my mind, justify a regulator placing a stop on operations.

[twochai]

Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
This should read: Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft with narrow track, fuselage mounted landing gear on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!

There are some very good reasons why some designers mount the landing gear in the wing of high winged aircraft (e.g. Dash 8, Fokker, Antonov, etc.).

[Karel_x]

Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!

They took off approx at 8:30. Wind was 29029g42kt.

egns 230820z 29029g42kt 5000 -ra few006 bkn009 bkn022 07/05 q0975 tempo 3000 ra bkn007

[Jetscream 32]

"Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions."

Sillert....

It was a general statement where it would be prudent for a responsible "ticket seller" to agree on operational parameters where they are happy for the AOC operator to cancel the flight on the grounds of safety. Which should have happened on this occasion - commander knew the forecast was for deterioration and still elected to continue beyond what was considered normal for the type of aircraft operated..... The bit you don't know is what commercial pressures the a/c operator may have been under to commercially operate the aircraft for contractual purposes....

My point was that the AOC operator has full and total operational control over the aircraft - when charterer / operator are two different parties!

It would still have been wise for agreement when to knock it off and let the storm roll through! Im not advocating in any way that a 3rd party interferes with a regulatory mechanism that exists for the safe operation of public transport aircraft!

[runway30]

The question is was the aircraft commander having a conversation with his Ops department back in the Czech Republic or the Ops department of the ticket seller in the IOM?

[Harry Wayfarers]

the Ops department of the ticket seller

Ticket sellers have Ops departments?

[runway30]

Ok, let's call it the Commercial department.

[Back at NH]

"10 March 2017
Citywing statement
As a result of Van Air losing their route licenses on Friday 24th February 2017, the company has found it difficult to source suitable viable aircraft to fulfil our contracts. The company has tried to offer a service whilst suffering considerable losses but these have proved unfortunately to be commercially unsustainable.
It is therefore with much sadness and deep regret that the Directors of Citywing Aviation Services Limited have had to take the difficult decision to close the company today and put the company into liquidation. This decision has not been taken lightly and has been made to protect creditors.
Flights on 11th March 2017 onwards have all been cancelled
We request that you do not turn up at the airports for your flights as there will be no one to assist.
A liquidator will be appointed and they will advise in due course on how to get a refund on your tickets.
There will also be guidance on the UK CAA website from Monday 13th March 2017.
https://www.caa.co.uk/home/
For those passengers on the Cardiff to Anglesey service, we have been advised that your Citywing tickets will be valid on train services out of Cardiff, and from stations between Bangor and Holyhead.
On behalf of all at Citywing, we all apologise for the inconvenience caused and thank you all for your support over the last 4 years.
The Directors
Citywing Aviation Services Limited"

[aox]

Citywing 'virtual airline' goes out of business - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39238929)

[Mr A Tis]

If they are in liquidation I wonder if Titan got paid for their services.? Hope so.

[Piltdown Man]

I am glad this bunch have bit the dust. There was something unpleasant in the arrangement between the ticket seller and the real airline, the one that the passengers actually flew on. Citywing's rapid "This is nothing to do with us" attitude after the Cork crash was despicable. We are all better off without them. Hopefully Manx3 will not arise from the ashes.

[Livesinafield]

Totally agree, everyone is safer now, hopefully the routes will be fulfilled by another operator