What would you do?

[dany4kin]

I'd really appreciate people's thoughts on this.

I've always wanted to be an airline pilot; colour vision has put an end to that but I work for an airline on the ground and love it.

I can do a PPL and got about 20 hours towards one about ten years ago but back then found it extremely expensive and was always tricky with UK weather. Now I'm looking at about 10k to do a PPL (roughly) and is obviously going to be expensive to maintain. Further, I cannot do an IMC or night rating with my restricted medical so have nothing to aim towards (beyond 'experience') to make me a better pilot.

Now, I could spend approx. 3k to get checked out on a full motion 737 sim for £299 an hour. Still expensive but I'm guessing not far off club aircraft rental with fuel and landing fees included.

So what do you think? Is it worth spending that much to not actually fly - but to get as close as is reasonably possible to what I've always wanted to do?

Further considerations are that my fiancé is not a confident flier and is unlikely to be a willing passenger, my friends would likely come for initial flights but don't have the passion to keep going up and I fear not being able to share the experience will dampen my passion and I'll be another lapsed PPL statistic.

Am I mad to consider spending a third of the cost of a PPL to not be able to 'fly' but to be able to 'fly' a 737 instead? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

[foxmoth]

Most of real airline flying is actually sitting drinking coffee and doing the crossword, what you are paid for is your knowledge, experience, getting the aircraft away from the gate on time and knowing what to do if something goes wrong, flying a sim is very different as there you are mainly practicing for when something does go wrong.
I fly A330 for a job, flying an aeroplane happens when I climb into my RV7!:)

[dany4kin]

I've done enough flightdeck trips to know a crossword or two!

I guess it would be the polar opposite of what the sim would normally see - rather than fires and failures I'd be just going from A-B! I like the idea of flying for real and haven't ruled it out, it's just so darned expensive and you have to stay current to stay safe. With a sim, once every couple of months would probably be affordable and no risk to safety.

[Cenus_]

If your medical is only restricted by colour vision then there is nothing to stop you doing the IR(R)

[piperboy84]

Bollox to the sim , get your PPL and don't worry who does or doesn't want to fly with you. GA is all about you, your machine and the elements. And if you want fly to a more pernickety standard (without a night or IFR rating) study towards and sit the commercial check ride. The fun is in the learning process not the endorsement on your license.

[YODI]

Another point is that you will make flying friends along the way to getting your PPL, I did..

[Tankengine]

Why not try gliding? You get to fly at a reasonable cost and it can be more fun and challenging than light aircraft flying.
(Said with experience of GA flying and Airline flying)

[460]

+1 for gliding.
Matches, precisely, your aim of becoming a better pilot.

Take your pick from a whole range of challenges: racing, aerobatics, long distance, mountains, instructing, or the simpler joys of local flying.

Each of these is great fun, the possibilities endless and can stretch you beyond your dreams.

[Redbird72]

Almost all of my post PPL flying is with people I didn't know before I started training. You're right, most non-flying people will come along once or twice for a go, but aren't very interested, but the clubhouse will be full of people who'll come along for a ride and buy you a burger.

I would say, get going with your PPL, if you still like it, get finished and get into a friendly group share.

[ACW599]

>Bollox to the sim , get your PPL and don't worry who does or doesn't want to fly with you.<

Wot he said :D

An old colleague used to say that watching other people fly was like watching other people have sex -- moderately interesting for a few minutes but rather tedious thereafter. The same could be said of simulated flying...

[FZRA]

In my opinion, you'd be wasting your money in the sim.

To give you an idea, I spent 5 weeks on my first jet type rating course, flying 40 hours in the sim. And whilst I knew which buttons to press, and how to go through emergency checklists etc, it didn't prepare me at all for real line flying. On day 1 of line training, I still sat there feeling like an absolute numpty!

The biggest example would be descent planning; how do I get from 38,000ft, to an airport 150 miles away, with this amount of tailwind, at this weight, with that potential ATC short-cut on the arrival, whilst making this altitude/speed constraint, etc. None of that is taught or flown in a sim, and I'm sure that your "checkride" would not cover it. So whilst you may have a good idea on which buttons to press and how to fly a normal take-off/landing, you would still be quite a long way off simulating "real" line flying.

Where in the UK are you? Many of the smaller flying clubs can be great at arranging fly-out events, where they would pair you up with another pilot(s) to fly somewhere for the day or perhaps even the weekend. Not only is it a great way of meeting like-minded people, you also get to explore places a little further away whilst sharing the costs of the flying. Sitting in the right-hand seat of the Cessna, manning the radios and helping with the Nav is just as much fun as the flying itself - you get to spend more time looking out the window!

[AerocatS2A]

I agree with the above. Don't bother with the sim. If you want to play around with pretend B737s then you'd be far better off putting a bit of money into a PC based simulator at home. With all of the money you're saving by not doing a full sim endorsement, go and do some real flying, PPL, aerobatics, float plane, gliding, whatever, just get out there and enjoy it. Don't think of maintaining your PPL as a "chore" or an undesirable expense, think of it as an excuse to go flying and have fun!

[Heston]

I'd really appreciate people's thoughts on this.

I've always wanted to be an airline pilot

Am I mad to consider spending a third of the cost of a PPL to not be able to 'fly' but to be able to 'fly' a 737 instead? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

I've tried to understand what your question really means. You say airline pilot, but as has been pointed out the SIM isn't the same as the job. And it is a job, which you, like many others, don't have the qualifications for.

If you want to fly, then you'll have to pay for it. Again there are cheaper options like gliding and micros. But they're not airliners.

Playing on a SIM, in your bedroom or on a full motion 'proper' one, can only ever be playing without all the experience and training that qualified atpls have. To think otherwise is delusional. Mad, if you want to use that word.

You've posted your question on a pilots forum. What sort of answer would you expect?

Ask yourself if you really have a passion for flight? If you do, then you can make it happen. Best of luck.

[Fitter2]

For what you would spend on a few hours in a 'real' B737 sim, you could set up one in your bedroom and 'fly' as many hours as you feel like (search Google for sim enthusiast websites).

Or go real flying of some kind, but it's not being an airline flight deck crew. Just a lot more fun.

[dany4kin]

Wow - some really helpful responses here which I am very grateful for and all in favour of going with the PPL.

Biggin would be my local airport and where I did my training before - Redhill would also be feasible. Kenley for gliding is also a very short distance for me and not something I'd considered.

I had also not considered finding flying buddies from the flying itself that's a very important point.

Cenus said I could do the IR(R) (I'm assuming the (R) bit is a restriction) - I will look into this - I'm almost certain the CAA said I could only do VFR. I don't think I could afford an IR but an IMC rating I would certainly like to have in the UK for both safety and the enjoyment of it.

Many thanks again all for the responses - I think I need to go book a trial lesson and rekindle the fire ...

[jonkster]

Further, I cannot do an IMC or night rating with my restricted medical so have nothing to aim towards (beyond 'experience') to make me a better pilot.


Lots of options for a 'humble' PPL rather than just 'experience' or hours.

Actively hunt out interesting aeroplanes and get some experience in them. Get a tailwheel endorsement. Get aerobatic training. Do formation training etc.

As others have suggested, try gliding. Try the weird and wonderful. Get some hours in micro/ultralights. Hone stick and rudder skills on a fun tail dragger like a Citabria or Cub. You could log a few hundred hours on a Citabria and still feel you could fly it better with a bit more practice. Which is the hook - if it was easy to get polished, you wouldn't enjoy it. That elusive mastery that is always just a little out of your reach is what keeps you addicted. :)

Lots of things to keep working towards. It is more than just hours. If you really love flying you will never be satisfied with your skills but will want to keep getting just that bit better and more polished. Even if it is a C150, you would be surprised how much you can find to improve.

All this in my opinion but do not discard the satisfaction that can come from flying things other than the big buses and from wearing a casual shirt and jeans rather than a tie and epaulettes.

I think there is a huge difference sitting in a real cockpit in a real aeroplane actually flying, compared to sitting in a simulator and it doesn't have to be a complicated aeroplane either.

A polished performance in a Piper Cub puttering along at 50 knots will easily put a bigger smile on my face than a 737 simulator (and will keep you flying longer). In my opinion anyway.

[gordonquinn]

Maybe worth considering microlights, can be done for half the cost of a PPL and some modern microlights exceed the performance of usual club "spam cans" e.g. Ikarus C42 vs Cessna 152.

Edit: Fixed wing microlights btw or flex if it might be your thing

[Genghis the Engineer]

Become a commercial balloon pilot, or a microlight instructor. Both are real professional flying jobs, neither require red/green differentiation.

Don't waste money on "experiences" when there's real flying jobs you can train for.

G

[FZRA]

Mmmmmmmmm! Programming the FMC with winds etc, fly faster to dump the height, speed brake and if you really are in a mess get the gear out

Well, yeah....! :ok:

But not quite that easy during your early days, especially if it's your first jet job. I remember one of the STAR's in MUC has some huge S-bends - the potential distance to the threshold could be around 50nm less if they're feeling generous! At which point my beautifully planned descent using VNAV guidance from the FMS went t1ts up :ugh:

[Legalapproach]

Are you absolutely sure you are colour blind? I was not good on the Ishihara dot tests and was initially told by an optomotrist that I was colour deficient but passed the RAF medical with a three colour light test. Sometimes things such as dyslexia can cause problems with the Ishihara test. Might be worth seeing a specialist with regard to colour vision. Otherwise why get checked out on a sim when you could spend the money on a day VFR PPL and have a huge amount of fun?

[Cenus_]

.
Cenus said I could do the IR(R) (I'm assuming the (R) bit is a restriction) - I will look into this - I'm almost certain the CAA said I could only do VFR. .

Let me know what you find out, I'm training toward my IR(R) aka IMC, I failed the ishihara plates and my medical is endorsed as:

flights by day only
No non radio flights to/ from aerodromes with ATC.

No mention of VFR / IFR.

[Piltdown Man]

Another approach might be to ask yourself what you really want to do. You are probably correct when you say you might not be able to hold a Class 1 medical, so from that starting point you will have to move forwards. The first thing to ditch is the simulator. They are as complicated as the real thing and after an hour you will have learnt little other than it is complicated and you are probably out of your depth. It take us 10 - 20 hours to get our feet under the table when we know what we are looking for. If you must, spend the money on a PC based simulator.

Now you have to decide what sort of flying to do. I started gliding and for 800 hours or so it kept me amused. I then got a PPL and for a time flew both. But the gliding was for more interesting. In a glider I could fly higher, for longer, faster and further and I could go racing, do aerobatics and have an adventure. In a bug smasher I paid huge amounts of money and achieve very little. Not long afterwards I become a tug pilot and that was great fun. I never tried microlights; I never liked the idea of weight shift flight but a three axis jobby might be fun. I did a few hours in a helicopter and that was a bit of a novelty but was only fun when close to the ground. I also never flew an auto gyro. They look like fun. I also enjoyed flying model aircraft but never did enough to become any good. I will take this up again when I have more time.

My suggestion be that if you don't know what you want to do, go for some trial lessons. Gliding, power, microlights, autogyros, motor gliders and model aircraft. Each are very different, each have compromises and all have different costs. As for pricing, assume you are average and ask how much it will cost you to learn and also to keep proficient. What you don't want to do is get your ticket and not be able to afford to use it or worse, become a danger to yourself.

I hope you find what you are looking for

PM

[Hadley Rille]

I'd recommend 3 axis microlight. You have to be a club member so you're off to a good start with people to share flying with once you're qualified. Less than half the cost of a PPL with a route to upgrade so your time and money spent isn't wasted. You'd nearly have your licence for what you're thinking of spending in a sim.

[garethep]

I can confirm that IR(R) with colour blindness is not a problem as I've done it and had the rating issued! I believe that it is also now possible to get a full IR with the "Daylight only" restriction. I'd love a go in a big jet sim and a few hundred quid for a one off experience sounds great but I cant see the attraction of doing further "training" on one for fun certainly not if real flying even a simple aircraft is an alternative.

[TelsBoy]

Gliding and motorgliders, best of both worlds. Forty quid an hour, way more social than spamcan flying clubs and the chance to fly many interesting and varied types at low cost, plus achievement awards and if you're so minded, competitions.


Always wanted to fly professionally myself, however farcically high training costs and an unrealistically unreliable jobs market driven by lo-cost Hire 'n' Fire airlines made me see common sense. Fighting over thousands of other folks for the chance to fly some clapped-out 737 on £20K a year, 6-day-week rosters whilst £150K in debt, then get sacked after 6 months? Nae thanks, others are welcome to it.


ATC or engineering a much better career! Still get time and money to fly on your terms for fun.

[ChrisVJ]

My experience may help a little.

I too am colour blind, I failed both the Ishahara and the three lantern tests so didn’t get the flying scholarship or the airline training I had banked on.

I got a PPL and the first few years I flew colts, tripacer, terrier and chipmunk, then of course the money got tight and for a while I flew Fourniers from Biggin but I was living in London and the traipse down and back to do 50 mins of flying became over tedious and as time went on I had even less disposable income. (Well, I was disposing it on a wife and many kids.)

Years later (29 years!) in Canada I saw an advert for a local flying school so I called to find out what I needed to do to get a licence. 5 hours, apparently. But flying spam cans was still expensive so I built an airplane and flew it for five or six years but once again cash got short. Sold it last year.

Maybe the world will turn yet again and I’ll build or buy another aircraft.

Learn to fly. It will always be with you and you never know where it will lead.

[oggers]

Further considerations are that my fiancé is not a confident flier and is unlikely to be a willing passenger

.........bonus.

[Philoctetes]

Have you thought of taking up aerobatics?
Get some good instruction (must be cheaper than the Sim), practice a bit and then perhaps try some gentle competitions?

[wrecker]

Back in the early 60s i was told by RAF CMB that i was red/green colour vision deficient as as such could not fly. i persevered and was re-assessed as "colour vision safe" The RAF did not want me but the AAC were very happy to have me and I then went on to fly for various airlines for the next 34 years. Still fling now.
Take heart all may not be lost.

[dany4kin]

I continue to be really grateful for all the responses.

Of course I fully understand that a 3k course to 'fly' a 737 sim is barely going to scrape the surface - I'm not that naive to think otherwise, it's just that is where I always wanted to end up.

I failed the Ishihara, the Holmes Wright (only when they turned the darned intensity down though!) and also failed the most recent colour vision test with the grey squares and the box moving off into the corners. I am quite significantly Protanope (red deficient) and I while I appreciate your heartening message Wrecker, I don't think I could ever be considered colour vision safe.

Gliding has not appealed previously I have to admit, and I was a passenger in a microlight (not 3 axis) that actually scared the bejesus out of me (turbulent day, French pilot who insisted I have a go no matter how many times I couldn't get my head around the push left to go right etc.) but all new experiences take some getting used to!

Being able to do an IMC rating eventually (I don't think I could afford an IR) would make me so much happier with the UK weather as it is and it is encouraging to see posts that think that might be possible which I will research.

I'd like to thank everyone again; I guess I figured the majority would be pro-actual flying but a 100% majority really speaks volumes... cheers all

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Like a lot of the replies I spend my working day operating (and I do mean operating) some interesting kit.

There's a PA32 and an LAA single seater waiting on a private strip for my days off.

SND