What would you do?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What would you do?
I'd really appreciate people's thoughts on this.
I've always wanted to be an airline pilot; colour vision has put an end to that but I work for an airline on the ground and love it.
I can do a PPL and got about 20 hours towards one about ten years ago but back then found it extremely expensive and was always tricky with UK weather. Now I'm looking at about 10k to do a PPL (roughly) and is obviously going to be expensive to maintain. Further, I cannot do an IMC or night rating with my restricted medical so have nothing to aim towards (beyond 'experience') to make me a better pilot.
Now, I could spend approx. 3k to get checked out on a full motion 737 sim for £299 an hour. Still expensive but I'm guessing not far off club aircraft rental with fuel and landing fees included.
So what do you think? Is it worth spending that much to not actually fly - but to get as close as is reasonably possible to what I've always wanted to do?
Further considerations are that my fiancé is not a confident flier and is unlikely to be a willing passenger, my friends would likely come for initial flights but don't have the passion to keep going up and I fear not being able to share the experience will dampen my passion and I'll be another lapsed PPL statistic.
Am I mad to consider spending a third of the cost of a PPL to not be able to 'fly' but to be able to 'fly' a 737 instead? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.
I've always wanted to be an airline pilot; colour vision has put an end to that but I work for an airline on the ground and love it.
I can do a PPL and got about 20 hours towards one about ten years ago but back then found it extremely expensive and was always tricky with UK weather. Now I'm looking at about 10k to do a PPL (roughly) and is obviously going to be expensive to maintain. Further, I cannot do an IMC or night rating with my restricted medical so have nothing to aim towards (beyond 'experience') to make me a better pilot.
Now, I could spend approx. 3k to get checked out on a full motion 737 sim for £299 an hour. Still expensive but I'm guessing not far off club aircraft rental with fuel and landing fees included.
So what do you think? Is it worth spending that much to not actually fly - but to get as close as is reasonably possible to what I've always wanted to do?
Further considerations are that my fiancé is not a confident flier and is unlikely to be a willing passenger, my friends would likely come for initial flights but don't have the passion to keep going up and I fear not being able to share the experience will dampen my passion and I'll be another lapsed PPL statistic.
Am I mad to consider spending a third of the cost of a PPL to not be able to 'fly' but to be able to 'fly' a 737 instead? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.
Last edited by dany4kin; 14th Feb 2017 at 20:04. Reason: Title spelling error
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of real airline flying is actually sitting drinking coffee and doing the crossword, what you are paid for is your knowledge, experience, getting the aircraft away from the gate on time and knowing what to do if something goes wrong, flying a sim is very different as there you are mainly practicing for when something does go wrong.
I fly A330 for a job, flying an aeroplane happens when I climb into my RV7!
I fly A330 for a job, flying an aeroplane happens when I climb into my RV7!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've done enough flightdeck trips to know a crossword or two!
I guess it would be the polar opposite of what the sim would normally see - rather than fires and failures I'd be just going from A-B! I like the idea of flying for real and haven't ruled it out, it's just so darned expensive and you have to stay current to stay safe. With a sim, once every couple of months would probably be affordable and no risk to safety.
I guess it would be the polar opposite of what the sim would normally see - rather than fires and failures I'd be just going from A-B! I like the idea of flying for real and haven't ruled it out, it's just so darned expensive and you have to stay current to stay safe. With a sim, once every couple of months would probably be affordable and no risk to safety.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bollox to the sim , get your PPL and don't worry who does or doesn't want to fly with you. GA is all about you, your machine and the elements. And if you want fly to a more pernickety standard (without a night or IFR rating) study towards and sit the commercial check ride. The fun is in the learning process not the endorsement on your license.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not try gliding? You get to fly at a reasonable cost and it can be more fun and challenging than light aircraft flying.
(Said with experience of GA flying and Airline flying)
(Said with experience of GA flying and Airline flying)
+1 for gliding.
Matches, precisely, your aim of becoming a better pilot.
Take your pick from a whole range of challenges: racing, aerobatics, long distance, mountains, instructing, or the simpler joys of local flying.
Each of these is great fun, the possibilities endless and can stretch you beyond your dreams.
Matches, precisely, your aim of becoming a better pilot.
Take your pick from a whole range of challenges: racing, aerobatics, long distance, mountains, instructing, or the simpler joys of local flying.
Each of these is great fun, the possibilities endless and can stretch you beyond your dreams.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Essex
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Almost all of my post PPL flying is with people I didn't know before I started training. You're right, most non-flying people will come along once or twice for a go, but aren't very interested, but the clubhouse will be full of people who'll come along for a ride and buy you a burger.
I would say, get going with your PPL, if you still like it, get finished and get into a friendly group share.
I would say, get going with your PPL, if you still like it, get finished and get into a friendly group share.
>Bollox to the sim , get your PPL and don't worry who does or doesn't want to fly with you.<
Wot he said
An old colleague used to say that watching other people fly was like watching other people have sex -- moderately interesting for a few minutes but rather tedious thereafter. The same could be said of simulated flying...
Wot he said
An old colleague used to say that watching other people fly was like watching other people have sex -- moderately interesting for a few minutes but rather tedious thereafter. The same could be said of simulated flying...
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion, you'd be wasting your money in the sim.
To give you an idea, I spent 5 weeks on my first jet type rating course, flying 40 hours in the sim. And whilst I knew which buttons to press, and how to go through emergency checklists etc, it didn't prepare me at all for real line flying. On day 1 of line training, I still sat there feeling like an absolute numpty!
The biggest example would be descent planning; how do I get from 38,000ft, to an airport 150 miles away, with this amount of tailwind, at this weight, with that potential ATC short-cut on the arrival, whilst making this altitude/speed constraint, etc. None of that is taught or flown in a sim, and I'm sure that your "checkride" would not cover it. So whilst you may have a good idea on which buttons to press and how to fly a normal take-off/landing, you would still be quite a long way off simulating "real" line flying.
Where in the UK are you? Many of the smaller flying clubs can be great at arranging fly-out events, where they would pair you up with another pilot(s) to fly somewhere for the day or perhaps even the weekend. Not only is it a great way of meeting like-minded people, you also get to explore places a little further away whilst sharing the costs of the flying. Sitting in the right-hand seat of the Cessna, manning the radios and helping with the Nav is just as much fun as the flying itself - you get to spend more time looking out the window!
To give you an idea, I spent 5 weeks on my first jet type rating course, flying 40 hours in the sim. And whilst I knew which buttons to press, and how to go through emergency checklists etc, it didn't prepare me at all for real line flying. On day 1 of line training, I still sat there feeling like an absolute numpty!
The biggest example would be descent planning; how do I get from 38,000ft, to an airport 150 miles away, with this amount of tailwind, at this weight, with that potential ATC short-cut on the arrival, whilst making this altitude/speed constraint, etc. None of that is taught or flown in a sim, and I'm sure that your "checkride" would not cover it. So whilst you may have a good idea on which buttons to press and how to fly a normal take-off/landing, you would still be quite a long way off simulating "real" line flying.
Where in the UK are you? Many of the smaller flying clubs can be great at arranging fly-out events, where they would pair you up with another pilot(s) to fly somewhere for the day or perhaps even the weekend. Not only is it a great way of meeting like-minded people, you also get to explore places a little further away whilst sharing the costs of the flying. Sitting in the right-hand seat of the Cessna, manning the radios and helping with the Nav is just as much fun as the flying itself - you get to spend more time looking out the window!
I agree with the above. Don't bother with the sim. If you want to play around with pretend B737s then you'd be far better off putting a bit of money into a PC based simulator at home. With all of the money you're saving by not doing a full sim endorsement, go and do some real flying, PPL, aerobatics, float plane, gliding, whatever, just get out there and enjoy it. Don't think of maintaining your PPL as a "chore" or an undesirable expense, think of it as an excuse to go flying and have fun!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to fly, then you'll have to pay for it. Again there are cheaper options like gliding and micros. But they're not airliners.
Playing on a SIM, in your bedroom or on a full motion 'proper' one, can only ever be playing without all the experience and training that qualified atpls have. To think otherwise is delusional. Mad, if you want to use that word.
You've posted your question on a pilots forum. What sort of answer would you expect?
Ask yourself if you really have a passion for flight? If you do, then you can make it happen. Best of luck.
For what you would spend on a few hours in a 'real' B737 sim, you could set up one in your bedroom and 'fly' as many hours as you feel like (search Google for sim enthusiast websites).
Or go real flying of some kind, but it's not being an airline flight deck crew. Just a lot more fun.
Or go real flying of some kind, but it's not being an airline flight deck crew. Just a lot more fun.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow - some really helpful responses here which I am very grateful for and all in favour of going with the PPL.
Biggin would be my local airport and where I did my training before - Redhill would also be feasible. Kenley for gliding is also a very short distance for me and not something I'd considered.
I had also not considered finding flying buddies from the flying itself that's a very important point.
Cenus said I could do the IR(R) (I'm assuming the (R) bit is a restriction) - I will look into this - I'm almost certain the CAA said I could only do VFR. I don't think I could afford an IR but an IMC rating I would certainly like to have in the UK for both safety and the enjoyment of it.
Many thanks again all for the responses - I think I need to go book a trial lesson and rekindle the fire ...
Biggin would be my local airport and where I did my training before - Redhill would also be feasible. Kenley for gliding is also a very short distance for me and not something I'd considered.
I had also not considered finding flying buddies from the flying itself that's a very important point.
Cenus said I could do the IR(R) (I'm assuming the (R) bit is a restriction) - I will look into this - I'm almost certain the CAA said I could only do VFR. I don't think I could afford an IR but an IMC rating I would certainly like to have in the UK for both safety and the enjoyment of it.
Many thanks again all for the responses - I think I need to go book a trial lesson and rekindle the fire ...
Further, I cannot do an IMC or night rating with my restricted medical so have nothing to aim towards (beyond 'experience') to make me a better pilot.
Actively hunt out interesting aeroplanes and get some experience in them. Get a tailwheel endorsement. Get aerobatic training. Do formation training etc.
As others have suggested, try gliding. Try the weird and wonderful. Get some hours in micro/ultralights. Hone stick and rudder skills on a fun tail dragger like a Citabria or Cub. You could log a few hundred hours on a Citabria and still feel you could fly it better with a bit more practice. Which is the hook - if it was easy to get polished, you wouldn't enjoy it. That elusive mastery that is always just a little out of your reach is what keeps you addicted.
Lots of things to keep working towards. It is more than just hours. If you really love flying you will never be satisfied with your skills but will want to keep getting just that bit better and more polished. Even if it is a C150, you would be surprised how much you can find to improve.
All this in my opinion but do not discard the satisfaction that can come from flying things other than the big buses and from wearing a casual shirt and jeans rather than a tie and epaulettes.
I think there is a huge difference sitting in a real cockpit in a real aeroplane actually flying, compared to sitting in a simulator and it doesn't have to be a complicated aeroplane either.
A polished performance in a Piper Cub puttering along at 50 knots will easily put a bigger smile on my face than a 737 simulator (and will keep you flying longer). In my opinion anyway.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Glasgow
Age: 33
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe worth considering microlights, can be done for half the cost of a PPL and some modern microlights exceed the performance of usual club "spam cans" e.g. Ikarus C42 vs Cessna 152.
Edit: Fixed wing microlights btw or flex if it might be your thing
Edit: Fixed wing microlights btw or flex if it might be your thing
Last edited by gordonquinn; 15th Feb 2017 at 12:33. Reason: Fixed wing comment
Become a commercial balloon pilot, or a microlight instructor. Both are real professional flying jobs, neither require red/green differentiation.
Don't waste money on "experiences" when there's real flying jobs you can train for.
G
Don't waste money on "experiences" when there's real flying jobs you can train for.
G
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmmmmmmmm! Programming the FMC with winds etc, fly faster to dump the height, speed brake and if you really are in a mess get the gear out
But not quite that easy during your early days, especially if it's your first jet job. I remember one of the STAR's in MUC has some huge S-bends - the potential distance to the threshold could be around 50nm less if they're feeling generous! At which point my beautifully planned descent using VNAV guidance from the FMS went t1ts up
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you absolutely sure you are colour blind? I was not good on the Ishihara dot tests and was initially told by an optomotrist that I was colour deficient but passed the RAF medical with a three colour light test. Sometimes things such as dyslexia can cause problems with the Ishihara test. Might be worth seeing a specialist with regard to colour vision. Otherwise why get checked out on a sim when you could spend the money on a day VFR PPL and have a huge amount of fun?
