SEP revalidation advice

[PaulTobiasStanding]

Hi all,

My rating is due to run out in a few months and wouldn't mind a bit of advice.

To give you some background info, I currently live in Finland although I have a UK PPL with SEP rating.

My problem is really financial, I've been quoted £550-£600 for an hours pre training and then a proficiency check. I suppose this is about right but was much more than I was hoping for.

I haven't flown since last May so I imagine I probably do need the hours training, I can prepare myself a bit my using flight simulator at home.

I was wondering about just letting the rating lapse and then picking it up when I'm actually able to afford it. Has anyone done the same thing ?

It's quite difficult to find the information but from what I understand up to 3 years from the date of the rating lapsing I would need some kind of assessment of my skills before doing the proficiency test (which it seems like I need anyway even though it hasn't yet elapsed) and after 3 years I'd have to do the whole skills test again (which isn't great but doable).

Maybe someone knows of a particularly cheap airfield where I could do the re validation ? I'm prepared to go anywhere in the UK really since I need to fly from Finland first anyway.

Thanks in advance !

Paul

[9 lives]

I'm on the left side of the Atlantic, so don't have specific advice about places to fly, or EASA/UK currency regulations, however:

I haven't flown since last May so I imagine I probably do need the hours training, I can prepare myself a bit my using flight simulator at home.


From a flying safety point of view, an hour is not enough for recurrency training after more than six months not flying for any pilot. The total of the skills which must be reviewed and demonstrated to a safe standard would take more than an hour, even of the demonstration was to standard the first time around, which is optimistic.

The realities of the cost to fly are unfortunate, but being a safe pilot is beyond the economics of the exercise, it's having sufficient recent experience that your skills are where they need to be to be safe.

A comparable situation is for those of us who fly floats in Canada, the water is too cold or too hard six months of the year to float fly. So, in the spring, there will be, by necessity, a six month recurrency flight. That is rarely done to completion in less than an hour, and that would be for very experienced pilots, whose "muscle memory" will mostly last over a cold winter.

You don't want to find yourself in a situation where, airborne alone, you'd "pay anything" to have received more training or practice, because somehow, it's all going bad fast now....

[PaulTobiasStanding]

I'm on the left side of the Atlantic, so don't have specific advice about places to fly, or EASA/UK currency regulations, however:



From a flying safety point of view, an hour is not enough for recurrency training after more than six months not flying for any pilot. The total of the skills which must be reviewed and demonstrated to a safe standard would take more than an hour, even of the demonstration was to standard the first time around, which is optimistic.

The realities of the cost to fly are unfortunate, but being a safe pilot is beyond the economics of the exercise, it's having sufficient recent experience that your skills are where they need to be to be safe.

A comparable situation is for those of us who fly floats in Canada, the water is too cold or too hard six months of the year to float fly. So, in the spring, there will be, by necessity, a six month recurrency flight. That is rarely done to completion in less than an hour, and that would be for very experienced pilots, whose "muscle memory" will mostly last over a cold winter.

You don't want to find yourself in a situation where, airborne alone, you'd "pay anything" to have received more training or practice, because somehow, it's all going bad fast now....
Sounds like some good advice.

Right now I'm thinking I might just be better off letting it lapse until I can afford to fly regularly, which will be safer and cheaper, at least for the ratio of money to hours I'm flying for my own enjoyment rather than being assessed.

Cheers, Paul

[ChickenHouse]

Paul, how many hours total is your experience, so how firm were your airmenship skills? Is your "UK PPL" already converted to EASA Part.FCL (in that case the license itself no longer expires and it does not harm to let it sit incurrent)?

[PaulTobiasStanding]

Paul, how many hours total is your experience, so how firm were your airmenship skills? Is your "UK PPL" already converted to EASA Part.FCL (in that case the license itself no longer expires and it does not harm to let it sit incurrent)?
Hi ChickenHouse,

Sorry yes by UK PPL I actually mean EASA but issued in the UK, Turns out it's not as european as I thought though otherwise I'd be able to do the revalidation proficiency check here in Finland.

My total hours are not very high, around 66. Hard to really say how firm my airmenship skills are/were, I practice a lot on simulator to keep things fresh in my mind but it's obviously not a substitute for real flying.

Are you saying with the EASA licence I don't have a 3 year limit before I need to take the skills test again ? Why doesn't it seem to list anywhere on the CAA site happens after X amount of years?

I know that the licence never expires as such, but of course if I have to re-take the skills test it might as well have.

Thanks,

Paul Standing

[MrAverage]

It matters not how long you leave it lapsed. (The 3 year thing went away some time ago)
You seek out the head of training at an ATO or an RF who assesses how much refresher training you need, as a minimum, before the LPC. It's now around 8 months since you flew. Unless you're exceptional you would have got rusty at least and may need more than that minimum.


Feel free to PM me if you need further advice.

[MrAverage]

............and it's rarely the complete test.

[S-Works]

............and it's rarely the complete test.

Its should be a complete LPC...... ;)

[MrAverage]

Absolutely. I was referring to the OPs question about doing the LST after 3 years.

[MrAverage]

.......and the longer the rating has lapsed the closer I make the LPC to an LST.

[S-Works]

.......and the longer the rating has lapsed the closer I make the LPC to an LST.

Gold plating....... ;)

[PaulTobiasStanding]

Thanks all for advice. LPC, LST ? I'm guessing the PC is proficiency check and the ST is skills test. But what is the L ?

The more I think about it the more I think my best option for now in my state of poverty is to just let it lapse, and just deal with the inevitable re-training needed when I can actually afford it. I can keep a lot of things fresh just by using simulator.

Cheers,

Paul Standing

[Prop swinger]

One option might be to convert to an LAPL(A). The recency requirements have a little more wiggle room than SEP rating revalidation/renewal, allowing you to dabble in aviation as & when without involving expensive examiners or even an ATO. Any EASA FI would be allowed to supervise & authorise your flying.

Should you ever want to convert back to a PPL(A) with an SEP I presume you would already meet the requirements of FCL.210.A (a) but you might want to check before burning that particular bridge.

[MrAverage]

Not Gold plated, only as recommended by my ultra experienced FIE.


It's more than sensible to test a 50 hour PPL, who hasn't flown for 10 years, a little more thoroughly than a 600 hour PPL/IRR/Night who's lapsed by 10 weeks...................

[flyingorthopod]

I had a similar dilemma a few years ago when I found that I wasn't flyting enough to enjoy it. I have up for a while. After an eight year gap I revalidated recently. I had about 140 hours on a few types.

The requirement is to pass a skill test. The examiner has some discretion about how much they make you do and is likely to test more if you're less experienced or have lapsed longer.

I did an hour each of circuits, cross country and gh/emergencies on a Saturday.

The skill test was reasonably comprehensive on the Sunday but I passed without a problem.

I did spend a few evenings reading beforehand so I knew checks, speeds etc thoroughly before I started. I found that handling the aeroplane, landing on the numbers etc came back in the first hour but it took a two more hours to do a nice pfl and get back on top of nav.

In honesty it took another few solo flights doing circuits, gh amd short nav legs to be properly happy with myself.

I think the message is that returning to flying after a gap is not too daunting, but you will need enough refresher training and passing the test might not be all you need to do to regain proper currency.

[S-Works]

It's more than sensible to test a 50 hour PPL, who hasn't flown for 10 years, a little more thoroughly than a 600 hour PPL/IRR/Night who's lapsed by 10 weeks...................

So are you suggesting that the LPC is not fit for purpose? I shall have raise that one at my next Examiner Renewal..... ;)

If you are conducting an LPC then you should conduct it exactly as per the CAA guidelines. If you choose to improvise you are running the risk of a Reg 6 appeal at some stage. I prefer just to follow the guidelines as laid down in the examiners hand book. I am only an FE/CRE/TRE so probably don't know as much as your uber experienced FIE but I do know the test standards.....

[MrAverage]

Except for including 3A and only completing one nav leg (which is what I've always done), I can find no stated difference between LST/LPC in the handbook. The 1157 has mandatory items and others that can surely only be at the discretion of the examiner otherwise why put them on the form? Thanks for the discussion b, I'll raise the point at my seminar as well as my assessment, both of which are due soon. Maybe best to PM the answers I get.

[Meldrew]

Hi Paul. Its not actually a"Skills Test" that you have to pass, as if it was the flying test for initial issue of a PPL. After the necessary retraining assessed by the ATO, you will just need a "Proficiency" check by an authorised examiner. This will be to the requirements of that examiner, but not quite as all encompasing as the skills test. Hope that helps.

[tume]

I'm prepared to go anywhere in the UK really since I need to fly from Finland first anyway.


You certaintly don't need to. Any EASA examiner can do your revalidation, it is just that non-UK Examiner can't endorse the Ratings page but you need to submit paperwork to UK CAA and pay the fee (88£ if I am not mistaken).

There are several "UK briefed" EASA examiners in Finland who can do this. They are familiar with the process along with required forms etc. (it's not hard to figure out by yourself). I just did a SET rating Skill Test with one in Finland this past summer, submitted the paperwork to the UK CAA and paid the fee (133£), simple as that.

How much SEP flight time you have within 12 months?

[PaulTobiasStanding]

You certaintly don't need to. Any EASA examiner can do your revalidation, it is just that non-UK Examiner can't endorse the Ratings page but you need to submit paperwork to UK CAA and pay the fee (88£ if I am not mistaken).

There are several "UK briefed" EASA examiners in Finland who can do this. They are familiar with the process along with required forms etc. (it's not hard to figure out by yourself). I just did a SET rating Skill Test with one in Finland this past summer, submitted the paperwork to the UK CAA and paid the fee (133£), simple as that.

How much SEP flight time you have within 12 months?
I've only actually got about 3 hours in the last 12 months, since I moved to Finland I haven't had much money available and flew only when visiting the UK. I also know of no close airports to me (Turku) that use PA28's so gave up on the idea of flying here.

So the revalidating by experience is out of the question for me since I'd need to fly 9 hours which I believe one hour of which needs to be a training flight. I can imagine that would cost over £1500, completely out of the question for me.

That's interesting though that I should be able to revalidate here, I thought I read something about instructors having to be pre-aproved by the CAA ? Could be old info though. Are you aware if I need to check with the CAA before any proficiency flight or anything ?

I may well look to do it here in Finland in the future as it sounds easier than i'd feared.

Thanks also to everyone else for the other answers.

Paul

[tume]

That's interesting though that I should be able to revalidate here, I thought I read something about instructors having to be pre-aproved by the CAA ? Could be old info though. Are you aware if I need to check with the CAA before any proficiency flight or anything ?

That UK briefing used to be a pain in the arse (seminar or something). If I'm not mistaken now it is just a matter of studying the United Kingdom section of the Examiner Differences document (link on the bottom of the page):
https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/aircrew-and-medical#group-easa-related-content

I was wrong when I told you the examiner can't sign your revalidation in the Ratings -page: he/she can actually according to that document in some instance ("Licence endorsement permitted when specifically authorised by the UK CAA."). Not sure what that would require since it wasn't possible in my case (rating initial issue).

You do have to send a notification about the LPC prior the flight along with examiner details etc. after which you should receive an automatic confirmation that you can go ahead with it. All this guidance is in IN-2016/003:

IN-2016/003: Procedures for Examiners Holding Part-FCL Certificates Issued by Countries Other than the UK (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=7177)

Then when you are done, along with the rating revalidation forms, you need to submit a copy of that email confimation (test notification), examiner’s licence, medical and examiner authorisation certificate.

[MrAverage]

.........and a Course Completion Certificate.

[tume]

.........and a Course Completion Certificate.

I guess, but if he was to only do the Proficiency Check it would not be required (since there is no course). However, I agree it might be prudent to do some refresher training in this case.

[MrAverage]

It's still required, even if no training was carried out, the form (SRG 1107) allows for that case.............

[astir 8]

Drive up to Oripaa - it's only about 55 km from Turku and try some gliding. It won't solve your revalidation problem but it's a lot more fun than a home sim!

Plus there are some very nice people there.

[BillieBob]

Since we are talking about a revalidation, there is no requirement for refresher training (although, given the OP's recent experience, it might be wise) or for a course completion certificate. It is also permissible for the examiner to complete any training prior to the check.

[PaulTobiasStanding]

Thanks all for input on this, I feel like I still don't fully understand the process but it seems like even if I let it lapse it won't be so much of a big deal to do some refresher flights followed by a proficiency check (if maybe a bit of messing around with CAA procedures).

Whether or not I need a course completion certificate seems to be a 'point of dicussion'.

astir 8 - I had checked out oripää, I thought actually they had powered aircraft there though unfortunately for me not PA28's.

I can't understand why there's no flying club at Turku's main airport, it's not like the city's huge but you would have thought there would be enough demand. If I had several hundred thousand euros I'd try and start it myself.

Paul

[MrAverage]

BillieBob


I stand by my statement in #24. A course completion certificate is definitely required, I know of at least three submissions that were rejected because the form was missing. All three were "no training required".


A revalidation LPC does not require one but a renewal LPC always does, whether training took place or not.

[S-Works]

Billiebob already stated a revalidation........ ��

[PaulTobiasStanding]

So if I understand correct..

- If the rating has lapsed it's a renewal and therefore a course completion certificate is required.

- If the rating hasn't yet expired it's a re-validation and a course completion certificate is not required.

The CAA should have licencing flow charts (that started as a joke in my head but actually makes sense).

[MrAverage]

That's it Paul!


bose-x:


Since the OP has more or less stated he's going to let it lapse I wanted him to have full understanding.

[MrAverage]

......as you and I know, too many candidates do not understand the difference between reval and renew.

[PaulTobiasStanding]

......as you and I know, too many candidates do not understand the difference between reval and renew.
Luckily I now do !