Croatia Airlines VP fltops suspended over leaving the F/O alone in the cockpit

[Clandestino]

A few news outlets in Croatia are reporting today that Croatia Airlines vice president for flight ops (incidentally a TRE) got suspended over security breach; allegedly he left the F/O alone in the cockpit in cruise. Incident was discovered when said F/O posted the video (http://www.vecernji.hr/hrvatska/pogledajte-snimku-zbog-koje-je-pokrenuta-istraga-u-croatia-airlinesu-ucenik-pilot-ostao-sam-u-kabin-na-letu-london-zagreb-i-narucio-kavu-1129067/multimedia/p2) on f-book.

It is unclear whether this happened during line training or our effoh hero with camera had already been line released, yet it is pretty certain he was part of P2F program, paying 35 000 € for type rating and 500 hrs of aeroplane time, while being paid Croatia's minimum wage.

[His dudeness]

And not concentrating but posing for a camera while alone on the FD is okay ?

What a weird world...

[captplaystation]

Sounds like a pretty sure fire way to "not" have your P2F contract extended. . . .

[Uplinker]

What am I missing here?

If there were only two pilots in the cockpit, then the F/O obviously had been released to line - or at the very least, the TRE had released the safety pilot - and therefore this F/O could be left alone in the cockpit if the Captain needed a pee.

That said, it is the height of stupidity for an F/O so new and inexperienced to behave in this way.

In our airline we have seen cadets texting on their mobiles during SIM training and Line training - I kid you not.

Where has this slack attitude come from? Unlike dinosaurs like me, I suppose that the cadets coming through now are the first generation to have had mobile phones and tablet computers from a very very early age, (I got my first mobile phone aged 35ish), so they probably don't see anything wrong with using one constantly, and the fact that it is highly inappropriate and dangerous probably doesn't even occur to them.
:rolleyes:

[underfire]

uplink,

No need to make excuses, the latest generation of entitlement pervades all.
Someone else will always be at fault, not them, hence the prevailing attitude.

[Canute]

Would this be the "entitled" generation who will be funding your retirement? The generation which will not be getting one themselves as the Ponzi scheme breaks? The generation who will not be able to buy their own homes? The generation that leaves university with massive debt and didn't get grants? The generation who have had to pay for all their own training because the older pilots never stood up to the airlines and stopped them creating multi tier pay schemes? The generation who has had most of the fun sucked out of the world by previous generations?

Is that the generation you are talking about?

[Frosch]

"....who will be funding your retirement?". I don't know but tend to doubt that, better take care of that by yourself and put something aside - if you can.

But you are right, maybe in little different way than you try to bring it to us:

Now we have what they pay for. And it will get worse. :sad:

Watching this and instantly thinking of the 121.50-Tarzans, Burpers and other Clowns, I sometimes get the feeling it's not too wrong to have them guarded - not safety wise, but a little babysitting until they finally grow up. Without burning down the house.

[Clandestino]

The issue seems to be that OU has subscribed to "never leave a pilot alone in the flightdeck" policy after the Germanwings catastrophe.

[msbbarratt]

I think you're talking about the generation that's started out during the modern era of ferocious competition and ultra low ticket prices...

Back in the day when there were fewer airlines and flying anywhere cost $$$$s and passengers were grateful to simply get their in one piece never mind the lack of lemon scented towelletes, it was possible to pay handsome salaries and lavish extensive training, etc.

The only reason one has to pay to be trained these days is because there's people willing to pay the fee. Personally speaking I think this means that piloting is a questionable career choice for youngsters these days. Compared to careers like electronics engineering where there's a dire shortage of good people, recommending flying sounds like poor careers advice.

[Frosch]

Of course this is the "issue". But safety-wise this procedure is a placebo and we all know that it is in place to lead the public to believe that everything is fine. Same **** like to banish liquids. All part of the show. So as pilots we could focus on the story behind the story. If we like to.

And yes, this job is dead. It might end like the poor guys from eastern europe living in their truck or like the Filipinos beeing exploited across the seven seas.....

[ATC Watcher]

The issue is also a management reacting to a post of Facebook and following the media hype, by (apparently ) sanctioning the Captain of that flight, while the real one that would need to be disciplined is the F/O taking that video and releasing it to the public.
In my world, and in most ATC units , Smartphones and tablets are banned from Ops rooms and taking photos/video strictly prohibited, and posting them on Internet or given to media ( same thing) would lead to serious disciplinary action . It it not what you filmed, it is about who took the shots.

[FlyANA]

As one of these new entitled cadets people are talking about, yeah my generation do think its normal to have a phone on them all the time. A big problem is sharing and documenting every second of their lives.

I've had friends get in serious trouble for posting things to Facebook without the company's permission, it's simply not worth it. Its a shame here that the Captain is getting in trouble when leaving an FO alone in cruise shouldn't be a big deal, its not a regulation or a standard.

On extensive training costs however, have a go at the guys our age paying to fly on their parents money. The only reason the training is so expensive is because people are willing to pay it. Its a total shame as well that it prices out those potential great, professional pilots who arent born wealthy.

[IcePack]

Must be more to this as surely any pilot is allowed a short break for physiological reasons. Or will all aircraft be fitted with pee tubes & I guess a bucket for "emergencies"

[ExSp33db1rd]

And yes, this job is dead. It might end like the poor guys from eastern europe living in their truck or like the Filipinos beeing exploited across the seven seas.....

A million years ago, it seems, I remember one of my early Captains suggesting that the Airline Pilot would go the way of the Royal Scot express train driver.

He explained that the early express train drivers were the cream of the cream amongst wage earners, people geneflucted towards them, rushed to smooth their path, paid them unbelievably high wages for the time, etc. but look at them now, he said, they creep aboard in greasy overalls carrying their lunch in a little aluminium tin and nobody really cares what they do, although the responsibility for their passengers hasn't diminished.

Strangely prophetic, sadly.

[lederhosen]

Sounds like the VP flt ops suspended himself. Reminds me of the BOAC 707 fleet manager writing himself a warning letter after a pod strike at Kai Tak. In this case a short suspension seems reasonable given he appears to have disregarded his own rules and is also responsable for the employment of this FO, who manifestly lacks the kind of decision making capability required for the job. My money is on the VP flt ops returning to flying....the FO is unlikely to get a glowing reference and rightly so. By the way Speedbird I think you are a bit out of touch with railwaymen pay. It is actually not at all bad, particularly when you factor in training costs etc.

[AndoniP]

but look at them now, he said, they creep aboard in greasy overalls carrying their lunch in a little aluminium tin and nobody really cares what they do, although the responsibility for their passengers hasn't diminished


so what you mean is the glamour is gone now and the day of the skygod is over?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

strictly prohibited, and posting them on Internet or given to media ( same thing) would lead to serious disciplinary action


I agree, if it is prescribed on adequate paper...If it is not, than it is not priohibited.


I saw at least 10 pilots of Croatia Airlines (Air Serbia as well,etc ) who has FB/Linkedin profile pictures from cockpit,plus dayli update of new pictures, even I know buch of stewardess in a same way ....


so I would not dare to say that taking photo from cockpit is prohibited.


rather I would say,


Croatia Airlines vice president for flight ops
someone esle wanted that post, and since new minister taking over cabinet recently.....


and of course, poor young pilot


he was part of P2F program, paying 35 000 € for type rating


If he pays for that in Croatia, than he is "not well connected", and anyhow he will not received that job after payment is finished.


generic safety, security ( we have different approach to that issues than US lead World) , Quality, and Balkans, can't be one sentence. ;)

[zero1]

Not sure why this is an issue, normal operations would allow one pilot to leave for a comfort break. Two things I have concerns over, one the FO posting a video and secondly why has he not put on the oxygen mask when the captain leaves the cockpit. I thought that was a SOP requirement.

Sadly the captain is going to get a kicking and the FO will not have his contract renewed.

Well this proves you can't teach common sense... shame.

[EatMyShorts!]

O2-mask: not under European law.
Alone on the flight deck: has been prohibited in most airlines since this Lubitz-bonker crashed the Germanwings Airbus, because he could not take life anymore.

It's always a few idiots who ruin it for the rest and at the same time it is the legislators who rush to implement new regulations/laws, just because something went awfully wrong on one single flight out of hundreds of thousands. What a mad world full of people only interested in covering their own behinds.

[Herod]

It's been said before, never, ever leave one pilot alone on the flightdeck. Many airlines insist that a member of cabin crew go in there. And before anyone asks "what could they do, they aren't qualified pilots?" the answer is: open the door.

[misd-agin]

Maybe the captain went to the bathroom? (Yawn).

[dsc810]

.....as for social media posting things from the cockpit
Take a look at this instagram "stream" from the me me me generation of snowflakes.
https://www.instagram.com/pilotmaria/
All I expect are photoshopped, the aspect ratios squashed to make everyone appear slimmer and accompanied by a the usual rictus grin.

[eckhard]

It's been said before, never, ever leave one pilot alone on the flightdeck. Many airlines insist that a member of cabin crew go in there. And before anyone asks "what could they do, they aren't qualified pilots?" the answer is: open the door.

Well I know of one Big Airline that allows one pilot alone on the flight deck - what are they missing?

[Tu.114]

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

- Attributed to Socrates.

[triploss]

On a recent flight on an eastern european airline, I did observe one of the cockpit crew leave the cockpit, visit the bathroom, grab some refreshments, and return to the cockpit. No cabin crew entered the cockpit at that point (except while on the ground), it didn't look like there was any further cockpit personnel.

However it also looked like the door didn't have a lock, unlike most other aircraft I've seen recently. Or at least the lock wasn't being used if present.

I wasn't particularly concerned, however I had been under the impression there was a fairly firm rule about having at least two people in the cockpit at any time, at least in Europe (I imagine that's unnecessary with an unlocked cockpit though).

[Canute]

No such rule.

[Uplinker]

Would this be the "entitled" generation who will be funding your retirement? The generation which will not be getting one themselves as the Ponzi scheme breaks? The generation who will not be able to buy their own homes? The generation that leaves university with massive debt and didn't get grants? The generation who have had to pay for all their own training because the older pilots never stood up to the airlines and stopped them creating multi tier pay schemes? The generation who has had most of the fun sucked out of the world by previous generations?

Is that the generation you are talking about?

Blimey Canute, calm down mate.

You are reading an attitude into my post that was not there. I was not having a go at this generation, nor was I judging them, but simply trying to understand why the "youth of today" (including my own son and almost all cabin crew) are so obsessed by their smartphones. Just idle curiosity and a bit of amateur psychology.

Having said that, the actions of the F/O in this thread are very questionable - there is a time and place, and this wasn't it.

[RAT 5]

I thought that after the Eurowings suicide crash the '2 in the cockpit' rule was more common. It was some of my previous airlines. We were not told it was a company initiative; we assumed it was an EASA thing. Now you're saying it is not an EU rule. What is the rule in other XAA regions?

[Dufo]

EASA (https://www.eurocockpit.be/stories/20160531/the-end-of-the-2-persons-in-cockpit-rule-in-sight) SIB is a recommendation to operators, not a mandatory requirement.


http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/EASA_SIB_2016_09.pdf/SIB_2016-09_1

[wiggy]

RAT

we assumed it was an EASA thing. Now you're saying it is not an EU rule.


It's that old chestnut again...

As Dufo has rightly pointed out this subject is covered by an EASA SIB on the subject and the devil is in the wording/detail of said document - regardless of whether you read it as a rule or a recommendation it gives options for compliance with the intent. Many operators have decided to comply by having a two up front rule (written into their Ops Manual), others are employ prefectly legitimate alternative means of complying with the SIB.....:oh:

In short, under EASA there isn't a blanket "there must be two people in the cockpit at all times" rule..

[ATC Watcher]

This EASA recommendation was just a reaction after Germanwings that they are doing something. It was/is more for general public/passengers than for anything else.
How do you want to enforce this for 2 crews aircraft Cargo operators to start with ?

[lederhosen]

Cargo aircraft are a different set of rules for obvious reasons. The point is if your operating manual says two people at all times then those are the rules. If you are the ops director it looks bad if you are filmed breaking your own sops, however sensible or not they may be. Does anyone know if it is in the OM at Croatia?....that would be interesting to know.

[His dudeness]

Would this be the "entitled" generation who will be funding your retirement? The generation which will not be getting one themselves as the Ponzi scheme breaks? The generation who will not be able to buy their own homes? The generation that leaves university with massive debt and didn't get grants? The generation who have had to pay for all their own training because the older pilots never stood up to the airlines and stopped them creating multi tier pay schemes? The generation who has had most of the fun sucked out of the world by previous generations?

Exactly the generation that was brought into the world by the previous, who had the dubious honor of funding saids generations upbringing and education. The generation that thinks it is entitled to more of everything than anyone else, the generation that pays gladly for their training with dads money, the generation that never stood up to anything and anyone, because they never got the message, as they forgot to load the correct app. The generation that cannot spell the word union...
The generation that is always high, drunk, and getting holidays abroad paid for by mum.

Don´t you dare to think you are the only one who can trivialize and over-simplify...

[EEngr]

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.

I have found this modest proposal quite appropriate for the aforementioned problem:
https://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/modest.html

[Kerosine]

Well, that's a real a first class idiot who hopefully won't be flying again. Brand new FO recording a video under those circumstances and posting it on facebook? Extremely poor judgement and a total lack of professionalism.

Can anyone translate what he's saying?

[RAT 5]

New interview question: "would you consider using social photo media during duty hours?"

Yes = F.O. No = move to next phase.

[Clandestino]

The issue is also a management reacting to a post of Facebook and following the media hype, by (apparently ) sanctioning the Captain of that flight, while the real one that would need to be disciplined is the F/O taking that video and releasing it to the public.

Way around, rumours about investigation started two days before "media hype".

Provided video is real and not forgery used by dark forces to defame the glorious captain whose shining examples of aeronautical & managerial excellence throughout his career should be followed by any Croatian airline pilot, commander can be easily found in breach of security procedure (yes, CTN does require FA to be in cockpit when one of the pilots takes physiological break). With F/O might be a bit different; it seems there are no explicit rules about using video equipment on CTN's flightdecks and besides, he is not just OU employee but also a paying client.

This EASA recommendation was just a reaction after Germanwings that they are doing something. It was/is more for general public/passengers than for anything else. Correct, yet some airlines chose to implement "never leave the pilot alone on the flightdeck" policy.
How do you want to enforce this for 2 crews aircraft Cargo operators to start with ?It's about caring (or rather pretending to care) about passengers. Since there are none on the cargo flights - N/A.

Probably the unlucky capt is cursing hard the management guy whose brilliant cost-saving idea was to bring P2F into CTN.

[NSEU]

it seems there are no explicit rules about using video equipment on CTN's flightdecks

When my old airline installed a temporary video camera on the glareshield for Antarctic sightseeing flights, I believe we had to prove things like the camera electronics didn't interfere with the aircraft electronics and that the whiskey compass wasn't affected. Our company also stipulated that photographic material intended by public viewing be vetted by the airline first (i.e. in case cockpit security was put at risk and in case the company was put in a bad light).

I've noticed that a lot of these videos are being taken by cameras stuck to the side windows. Surely anything which impedes vision can't be legal?

How secure are the feet on these cameras? Are they likely to detach during turbulence or an accident, hitting pilots or damaging aircraft equipment?

[evansb]

Not a problem. A non-issue. Nothing to see here. Walk away. Shut this tread down. Unless of course you are a lawyer..

[Denti]

I've noticed that a lot of these videos are being taken by cameras stuck to the side windows. Surely anything which impedes vision can't be legal?

Well, our CAA approbed my company to stick our iPad EFBs into the sidewindow with a suction RAM mount. Of course it blocks a certain area, depending on how each pilot uses it, and is much larger than those mini action cams most use nowadays. And yes, the mount, if used correctly, is safe in turbulences.

[172_driver]

Same suction mount has fallen into my dinner more than once for no apparent reason. It seems strong when attached properly, but perhaps the combination of changing air pressure and use of window heat has created this enemy of mine!!

[FlightDetent]

Is yours a double cup installation? Our CAA declined to approve even those...

[Uplinker]

@172driver: do you routinely clean the mating surface of the suction cups?

They get mounted and dismounted a lot and dirt can build up on the active surface which makes the air seal leaky. I find that a wipe round with a tissue moistened with a dab of water restores a good seal. :ok:

[172_driver]

Double cup yes,

Shall try the wet wipe, usually they're already fastened to the windscreen when entering the flight deck and taking it down to clean hasn't really been at the top of my mind

[ATC Watcher]

Clandestino : thanks for reply and for the inside view ;
Applicability to freighters : the Easa SIB says : Applicability:
Commercial air transport (CAT) operators of large aeroplanes equipped with a secure flight crew compartment door1
.
Does not limit it to passengers aircraft I would say, and as far as I know B747F has secure cockpit doors . ( waiting to be contradicted) but you are right that the average passenger do not care!
You remark on a P2F F/O that is a client of the airline makes a very good point !
In fact if I was P2F , to a Capt that says " my leg " , I would reply " Sorry mine , I paid for it !" and the client is always right :E

[Denti]

Yup, doublecup here as well, and the inner suface of the cups has to be clean. Havent had one drop on me yet.

[CONF iture]

Well I know of one Big Airline that allows one pilot alone on the flight deck - what are they missing?
Good for them.
How did they manage to escape that :mad: policy ?

[wiggy]

CONIF iture

Good for them.
How did they manage to escape that policy ?


There are some misconceptions about "that policy" - it was discussed earlier in the thread. It might be worth having a really really careful read of the relevant EASA SIB which covers this it; see link kindly provided by Dufo (permalink #29) and the subsequent comments.

[JumpJumpJump]

Does anybody else here have the balls to say that there was no danger at all to flight safety here?

The captain went for a piss... He is alowed to. The first officer took a short video in the cruise... Which I believe is not against the written policy of croatian airlines.... This post has appeared to become a bit of a shooting ground between generations.... The amount of concentration that this first officer is giving to the aircraft is probably greater than that of a new FO listening to the many stories that the captain has to give of times gone by and certainly much greater than a sector with his head in a manual, being drilled by a captain or of course studying on his own accord... more so than when having lunch and discussing union matters.... The kid, either by himself (with a huge loan from the bank) or with the help of his family, wanted to show off a little to his friends and family, which, to be honest, in terms of flight safety really is not a problem.
If the company forbids A) filming B)Posting to social media C) leaving the flightdeck with only one occupant. that is one matter. The real conversation should be whether or not what has happened here is actually dangerous in any way shape or form.

[FlightDetent]

Agreed. Whilst my employer applies B) and C).

[old freightdog]

Clandestino : thanks for reply and for the inside view ;
Applicability to freighters : the Easa SIB says :
Does not limit it to passengers aircraft I would say, and as far as I know B747F has secure cockpit doors . ( waiting to be contradicted) but you are right that the average passenger do not care!
You remark on a P2F F/O that is a client of the airline makes a very good point !
In fact if I was P2F , to a Capt that says " my leg " , I would reply " Sorry mine , I paid for it !" and the client is always right :E
No secure cockpit doors on a 744F, all you got is a curtain! But then, your max 6 Pax are ussually on company business or deadheading!

[His dudeness]

The real conversation should be whether or not what has happened here is actually dangerous in any way shape or form.

Well said JumpJumpJump, BUT: over here in Europe, the media & the politicians have totally lost it - we need to be protected from ourselves, so they think. Facts are not what counts, but the what ifs (as in what happens to my career as a member of parliament etc if...)

If there is a murderous nut job like Lubitz (the Germanwings FO) on the FD, then no precaution will help. The nice looking 20 year old flyweight won´t stand a chance if the guy is determined... and thats what nut jobs usually are.

[appleACE]

If there is a murderous nut job like Lubitz (the Germanwings FO) on the FD, then no precaution will help. The nice looking 20 year old flyweight won´t stand a chance if the guy is determined... and thats what nut jobs usually are.

If the pilot had totally committed to killing everyone then no, but killing one person who is sat right next to you looking you in the eye and asking you why you're doing it is probably a lot harder than killing a hundred abstract people who you can't see or hear and don't really care about.

Also as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread the FA can open the cockpit door allowing the other pilot back in.

[Herod]

Also as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread the FA can open the cockpit door allowing the other pilot back in.

Yep, that was me. It's not just the nutter of course. We are all trained in pilot incapacitation, but if the other guy is the wrong side of the door?

Of course, I've been out of it for a few years, so if I'm talking out of my lower end, I apologise.

[CONF iture]

Always two on the flight deck, not for the Lufthansa pilots.
A deux dans le cockpit : pas pour les pilotes de Lufthansa | Air Journal (http://www.air-journal.fr/2015-08-11-a-deux-dans-le-cockpit-pas-pour-les-pilotes-de-lufthansa-5148376.html#respond)

Still, Lufthansa has been following the recommendation.
https://airwaysmag.com/industry/op-ed-two-person-flight-deck-action-following-germanwings-crashthe-right-action/