Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

[Aslak]

Just received a message from a friend at Dubai airport that the Emirates 777 had landed with the gear collapsing and would have caught fire? Any info anyone?

[BuzzBox]

No details yet, but:

Emirates flight from Trivandrum to Dubai crash-lands - Khaleej Times (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/business/aviation/emirates-flight-from-trivandrum-to-dubai-crash-lands)

[log0008]

This is being posted on twitter

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co7H0G9W8AAuo89.jpg

[log0008]

Reports it was a total gear up landing, not a failure

More photos total invovled

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co7Jgj8WYAAeKfc.jpg

[log0008]

It appears to be
AIRCRAFT
Boeing 777-31H
REGISTRATION
A6-EMW

[BillS]

Cabin appears to be breached:
https://mobile.twitter.com/kbhagava/status/760765554080768000/photo/1

[ACMS]

Flight radar 24 showing pandemonium around DXB now, flights diverting all over the shop.

[flt001]

Flight Radar data: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek521#a8c7c5e

The Flight didn't hold before landing.

[LLuCCiFeR]

Flight radar 24 showing pandemonium around DXB now, flights diverting all over the shop.
It's gonna be interesting to see how this works out with lots of brainwashed pilots carrying minimum fuel and probably taking SHJ, AUH and AAN as alternates... :hmm:

On paper it all works out beautifully....if you are the only one diverting... :ouch:

[susier]

https://twitter.com/DXBMediaOffice

Twitter seems to think everyone got out alright. Let's hope so.

There appears not to have been a 7700 squawk.

[littco]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36963112

[LLuCCiFeR]

No holding????
All EK flights inbound to DXB are landing at Dubai world or Sharjah now.

There are no Aircraft landing at DXB now.......

Look again.
He probably was talking about the involved aircraft as he posted the FR24 radar track. No holding could hint that there were no prior indications that something was wrong?

[OldLurker]

Aviation Herald: Emirates B773 at Dubai on Aug 3rd 2016, gear collapse on landing, aircraft on fire (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302)

[littco]

Windshear looks to have been reported, whether that had any influence.

[log0008]

7lyjRefyufg

[mommus]

From the video it looks like the plane held together pretty well.

I just hope everyone made it out before the fire took hold.

[mickjoebill]

Up close Video from an emergency(?) vehicle.


https://twitter.com/faisalirshaid/status/760776129808662529

This brief video taken from a distance sppears to show a fuel explosion.
https://twitter.com/uavpilot07/status/760779287779745792

[giggitygiggity]

OMDB 030900Z 11021KT 3000 BLDU NSC 49/07 Q0993 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 1500

110/21 then 350/15 tempo with WS. Surely this has something to do with it, if they had a tech issue, probably time to divert.

[red_october]

Video from an emergency vehicle.


https://twitter.com/faisalirshaid/status/760776129808662529


The emergency vehicle video seems to show the left wing inverted, ie the engine at the top of the wing? Hope everyone got out OK. A lot of slides deployed.

[mommus]

the wing is still the right way up, and attached it seems, but the engine has detached and is sitting on the runway facing the wrong way.

[reptile]

@red_october

The engine intake is pointing toward the flaps. Wing definitely not inverted....engine broke away and ended on top of the wing.

[kbrockman]

Emirates airline plane 'crash lands at Dubai International Airport after catching fire in mid-air' - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/emirates-airline-plane-crash-lands-8550266)
Emirates airline plane 'crash lands at Dubai International Airport after catching fire in mid-air'

Mid air fire probably more than explains expedited emergency landing and inability to get the gear down.
This might be one of the best possible outcomes in hindsight.

[TwoHeadedTroll]

Emirates twitter feed is reporting no serious injuries.... as relayed by the radio. In terms of weather, it is pretty toasty 49C, and there is currently no significant wind in Dubai (5 miles away)

[Avionyx]

Have heard from a friend who's at DXB this Morning that Smoke could be seen while it was on approach.

Good job involved for getting it down and everybody off safely.

[Capn Bloggs]

nVhRLKUjl5Y

[susier]

From the AVHerald:

'According to ATC recordings the aircraft performed a normal approach and landing, there was no priority or emergency declared. Upon contacting tower tower reminded the crew of lowering the gear and cleared the aircraft to land. Another approach reported on tower frequency.

About 2 minutes after EK-521 reported on tower tower instructed the aircraft to climb to 4000 feet (no go-around call heard from the crew), the crew acknowledged climbing to 4000 feet, a few seconds later tower instructs the next arrival to go around and alerts emergency services. The position of the aircraft is described near the end of the runway.'

[tiger9999187]

Top of the wing?
Definitely top of the wing. In the video filmed closed to the fire truck on scene the tear in the upper wing surface where that piece detached can be seen turned up/ripped

[weedrea]

nVhRLKUjl5Y
Skynews has jumped the shark....an explosion..."this slightly changes the trajectory of this story"!...surely it's just the slide blowing away?

[DHC4]

Susier, sounds a bit strange for the tower to have to remind the crew to lower the gear?

[log0008]

Reports that the explosion is the wing fuel tank, but i thought it might be a tire or something?

[ACMS]

Found this on the Middle East forum.
Apparently tried to go around, selected Gear up but hit the ground.......

http://avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Some pretty intense burning - hats off to the cabin crew & flight deck for a great evac.

https://twitter.com/radio_101/status/760779491769737216

[Airmotive]

The audio is terrible, but...LiveATC.Net ATC Audio Archives (http://www.liveatc.net/listen.php)
Select "OMDB Tower Both" (or frequency 118.75). Time: "0830-0900Z" recording.
5 minutes in you hear Emirates 521 accepting clearance to land, then told to climb to 4000.
10 minutes in you hear all aircraft being diverted.

[Ollie Onion]

It is being reported elsewhere that the aircraft was instructed to go-around by ATC and the aircraft impacted the runway after the gear was retracted.

[SunnyUpHere]

AVherald reports;

"...was on final approach to Dubai's runway 12L at 12:41L (08:41Z) but attempted to go around from low height. The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames...."

Windshear was also reported.

Possibly the crew decided to go around due to windshear, but got caught in it and hit the runway?

[stuminisprite]

Will more likely be upper wing surface. Slides are inflated using a combination of a small amount of highly compressed gas, and a one way venturi valve. As the compressed gas flows past the valve, it draws ambient air through the century and inflates the slide. To deflate all you do is open the valve flap with your hand.

[Jabawocky]

I wonder if there was any doubt about evacuating? :hmm:

Probably not I trust.:ok:

[atakacs]

Possibly the crew decided to go around due to windshear, but got caught in it and hit the runway?

That sounds like the most plausible explanation yet... It definitely impacted gear up :eek:

[TwoHeadedTroll]

EK521 since it wasn't mentioned earlier ...

[ACMS]

Changing the Aircraft configuration during a Windshear escape Manoeuvre??? I hope not

[sleeper]

AVherald reports;

"...was on final approach to Dubai's runway 12L at 12:41L (08:41Z) but attempted to go around from low height. The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames...."

Windshear was also reported.

Possibly the crew decided to go around due to windshear, but got caught in it and hit the runway?
This could be a very reasonable assumption.

[PoppaJo]

Possibly the crew decided to go around due to windshear, but got caught in it and hit the runway?

Looks like some serious damage near the tail skid also which would indicate most likely.

[Gridl0k]

AP report 282 passengers, 18 crew, no fatalities.

[mommus]

@ImPlaneCrazy

Looks like they were evacuating people right next to the wing that exploded too - if indeed it was the wing, rather than the centre fuel tank exploding.

Still can't believe everyone survived this.

[ACMS]

Which is the most important detail.

[daelight]

If indeed it dropped like a rock from height > 100ft yet the cabin integrity was assured, all pax and crew evacuated .. Well.. god bless the engineers of this aircraft...

[atakacs]

Still can't believe everyone survived this.

It is indeed almost miraculous (if confirmed) - but if nothing else reinforce the very good survivability track record of the 777.

[mommus]

If indeed it dropped like a rock from height > 100ft yet the cabin integrity was assured, all pax and crew evacuated .. Well.. god bless the engineers of this aircraft...
Absolutely. The BA fuel-starvation crash always surprises me for the same reason.

Seems a solid old girl the 777

[log0008]

ULhlvu44eDo

This is the ATC from the link above, very hard to hear much at all, other than EK521 clear to land (response from crew)

[buggerall]

Do we know (hopefully X infinity) that EVAC was complete?

[LLuCCiFeR]

From the AVHerald:

'According to ATC recordings the aircraft performed a normal approach and landing, there was no priority or emergency declared. Upon contacting tower tower reminded the crew of lowering the gear and cleared the aircraft to land. Another approach reported on tower frequency.

About 2 minutes after EK-521 reported on tower tower instructed the aircraft to climb to 4000 feet (no go-around call heard from the crew), the crew acknowledged climbing to 4000 feet, a few seconds later tower instructs the next arrival to go around and alerts emergency services. The position of the aircraft is described near the end of the runway.'If this is correct, it would be very strange of the TWR having to remind the crew to lower the gear.
It is being reported elsewhere that the aircraft was instructed to go-around by ATC and the aircraft impacted the runway after the gear was retracted.Perhaps ATC told the aircraft to go around because the gear was never extended in the first place?

[nolimitholdem]

Night turnaround. 4 hr sectors. Landing at 12:45pm local. Hmmm....

I would never have guessed anything could go wrong on one of those lovely Annex 1 flights.

:yuk:

[troff]

That crew were on a 29 hour layover in TRV after deadheading over on the 2nd.

[BuzzBox]

Absolutely. The BA fuel-starvation crash always surprises me for the same reason.

Seems a solid old girl the 777

Not to mention Asiana's cartwheel in SFO.

[MELDreamer]

Surface temperature 49degs, QNH 993 - what kind of density altitude is that? I'm not Triple7 qualified, but what are the operating limits for the type?
Add windshear, a go-around - that's an unfortunate mix.

[Aslak]

Heard from someone on the ramp that it appeared that the gear was down, aircraft touched down well after midpoint with very high nose up attitude and the other main collapsed on touch down. Very early to speculate but WS?

[LLuCCiFeR]

All we need now is Alex Macheras using accidents for his own sickening self publicity, David Learmount talking rubbish and Geoffrey Thomas proclaiming how 'that would never happen to Qantas' and you have the complete post crash horror show of self proclaimed, self absorbed and self promoting 'experts' showing that they are anything but.

I watch Casualty. Surely that qualifies me to be a healthcare expert?
Yeah, and that complete tw@t on the Clinton News Network: Richard Quest!

[ExDubai]

Night turnaround. 4 hr sectors. Landing at 12:45pm local. Hmmm....

I would never have guessed anything could go wrong on one of those lovely Annex 1 flights.

:yuk:
Any chance that we just wait a little bit and find out what happened before we start throwing the stones?

[DingerX]

Maybe it took them a little too long to figure out what the GPWS was on about at 500 feet.

[nolimitholdem]

Any chance that we just wait a little bit and find out what happened before we start throwing the stones?

Not throwing stones. I think the use of exceptions to FTL's to squeeze the hours on some night t/a's is outrageous - I still think that.

But if troff is correct, not a factor in this accident. Good to hear.

[AngloFrench]

Aviation Herald report:-

3rd July 2016 10:37ZAn Emirates Airlines Boeing 777-300, registration A6-EMW performing flight EK-521 from Thiruvananthapuram (India) to Dubai (United Arab Emirates) with 275 people on board, was on final approach to Dubai's runway 12L at 12:41L (08:41Z) but attempted to go around from low height. The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames. Passengers are being reported evacuated and safe. The aircraft burned down completely.
Also reported Wind shear, dust clouds on approach, 11kt tailwind.

[log0008]

Aviation Herald report:-

Also reported Wind shear, dust clouds on approach, 11kt tailwind.


and why should you attempt to land?

Still amazed everyone is ok - every airline should get some 777's in there fleet!

New photo - still going down runway

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co7iMGNWcAAVs_7.jpg

[Gridl0k]

NB the 275 pob figure was revised to 282+18, so the rest of the AH report may be similarly flawed.

[carguard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw9GADX-N-c

[Interested Passenger]

I wonder where Aviation Herald got their info from?

....attempted to go around from low height. The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames...

gear up before positive rate of climb? If that's right, then surely that's wrong.

[threemiles]

49° were measured after the incident happened I guess

SP 03/08/2016 10:48->
SPECI OMDB 031048Z VRB06KT 6000 NSC 41/24 Q0992 WS ALL RWY
TEMPO=
SA 03/08/2016 10:00->
METAR OMDB 031000Z 11018KT 5000 BLDU NSC 49/05 Q0993 WS ALL
RWY TEMPO 35015KT 1500=
SA 03/08/2016 09:00->
METAR OMDB 030900Z 11021KT 3000 BLDU NSC 49/07 Q0993 WS ALL
RWY TEMPO 35015KT 1500=
SA 03/08/2016 08:00->
METAR OMDB 030800Z 14012KT 100V180 6000 NSC 48/09 Q0994 WS
ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 4000 DU=
SP 03/08/2016 07:49->
SPECI OMDB 030749Z 14012KT 110V180 6000 NSC 47/09 Q0994 WS
ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 4000 DU=
SA 03/08/2016 07:00->
METAR OMDB 030700Z 06007KT 360V100 8000 NSC 44/10 Q0995 NOSIG=

[Avionyx]

Emirates really show its true colors now with its top notch training department !!!! WTF
Regardless of what actually happened to cause the incident this statement is quite true.... the Cabin Crew quite clearly did an absolutely sterling job in getting everybody out of there alive.

They did a job to be proud of Today. What happened up front we will find out in time but I don't think the CC's actions can be criticized in any way given the outcome.

[AN2 Driver]

Surface temperature 49degs, QNH 993 - what kind of density altitude is that?


approximately 4500 ft

[atakacs]

282+18 reported - is 16 CC (I guess this was a 2 pilot flight ?) typical ?

[hoss183]

troppo: poor hoss might have got an unwarranted flaming
Thanks
We will never know as my perfectly reasonable analysis of visual clues was deleted.
My point was - it does not look like a gear collapse as first reported, rather a gear-up landing, which has now been reported. Thank you over-zealous mods.

[JNPS]

Avionyx,
You are quite right about the cc crew actions. They also saved the pax.( all of them), in YYZ a few years ago. I find that many of my colleagues are quick to speak in a derogatory manner about the cc, belittle their roles, question their abilities. When the real test came in the aforementioned accidents, they not only rose to the challenge, but shone!

As a soon to retire Professional Pilot of 29 years, ( 1 to go), I have nothing but respect for their abilities in these incredibly difficult situations. Not to mention, what they put up with during the course of their regular work.

[Mimpe]

When I saw the pressure, temp 49deg, and the tailwind .......I'm so glad it ended ok

[cressidom]

I sure hope there wasn't any Live Animals in the hold.

[Nemrytter]

I wonder where Aviation Herald got their info from? Presumably from the ATC transmissions, which reported going around and 'gear up'.

Good to see that log0008 and others still not crediting pictures.:=

[Deep and fast]

We all know fatigue is cumulative so the rosters for the previous 3 months would tell a better story.
Don't forget bunk time and ground duties on top of 100 hours a month.

[A4]

Can we stop with the tailwind? Landed on 12L @ 0841Z.
Wind @ 0800Z was 140/12 Varying 100 to 180.
Wind at 0900Z was 110/21.

So, predominantly from the SE with a bit of variation either side of the r/w axis.

BUT with WS reported and circa 45 C and low QNH....

[PW1830]

The words GoAround,Flapsxx, Gear Up might have been said but if the mode doesn't engage for whatever reason....... JetStar tried it and got away with it. Recognition of positive climb before the pilot selects the gear up works well.

[troff]

gear up before positive rate of climb? If that's right, then surely that's wrong.

Interested Passenger, FYI, in a G/A situation with W/S there is no configuration change till well clear of the W/S

[Azeem sudheer]

Yes.but something doesnt fit in because they are supposed to retract the gear only after a positive rate of climb is verified.

And plus,if they attempted go around and still hit the ground that might mean that they stalled out or didnt follow correct procedures

[littco]

https://youtu.be/12XAQf6u1kI

Clearly shows engine on top of the wing

[ACMS]

Th EVAC command doesn't come straight away, it takes time to run the appropriate EICAS then the EVAC checklist etc. not seen in the Video because the video is too short.

Regarding the wind, the ATC recordings say " wind 340/11 clear to land"

So, from a SE to a NW, yes quite likely Windshear....

[Desertweasel]

in the UAE every picture here could e considered illegal since they tarnish the reputation of EK. There may be some censorship or self censorship going on

[marcoalza]

in the UAE every picture here could e considered illegal since they tarnish the reputation of EK. There may be some censorship or self censorship going on
There is plenty of images and videos being circulated by the AE media here though...

[Guy of Gisborne]

Th EVAC command doesn't come straight away, it takes time to run the appropriate EICAS then the EVAC checklist etc. not seen in the Video because the video is too short.

Regarding the wind, the ATC recordings say " wind 340/11 clear to land"

So, from a SE to a NW, yes quite likely Windshear....
ACMS, that's got to quote of the day, "not seen in the video because the video is too short"

[gulliBell]

It's being reported in the media now that the pilot made an announcement to the passengers prior to landing that there was a problem with the landing gear and to prepare for an emergency landing.

[Roger Greendeck]

For those so keen to criticise the decision not to evacuate in Singapore recently. In training too many people treat an evacuation like the end of a fairy tale '...and they lived happily ever after'. But every evacuation has significant risks and it's even worse if there's smoke, fire, foam, and vehicles surrounding the aircraft. The same accusation was levelled at the QF32 incident in Singapore, even though the number one engine couldn't be shut down and despite everyone disembarking safely. For now can we just be happy that evacuating worked safely this time and delaying worked safely a few weeks ago. When the detailed reports come out in due course we can make a more balanced assessment of the crew's actions.

[1fm]

A closer shot of the burnt-out image shows it came to rest near the M14A/B marker, which puts it near the end of 12L(?)

Plane crash landed in Dubai airport Photos and Images | european pressphoto agency (http://www.epa.eu/disasters-photos/accidents-general-photos/plane-crash-landed-in-dubai-airport-photos-52923429)

[ACMS]

Well Guy, what else can I say? Yes I saw the video of the Aircraft stopping, the video stops before the EVAC......why? Because the EVAC procedure takes time.....

What part of that concept confuses you?

[Bonzo777]

Several pax running with their carry on baggage cases!! When will they ever learn?

[donpizmeov]

Some even carrying their kids...what were they thinking :)

[MynameisInigoMontoya]

1 fatality reported.

[crwkunt roll]

Th EVAC command doesn't come straight away, it takes time to run the appropriate EICAS then the EVAC checklist
Cabin crew won't wait for EVAC command when it's obvious.

[ACMS]

They would wait in this case, they would first attempt to establish communication with the cockpit and if that didn't work they would then EVAC.
I'd say the cockpit crew initiated this EVAC as per SOP

[chuboy]

1 fatality reported.

EK have already issued a statement confirming there were no fatalities.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Well Guy, what else can I say? Yes I saw the video of the Aircraft stopping, the video stops before the EVAC......why? Because the EVAC procedure takes time.....

What part of that concept confuses you?
I know how long an evac takes. What is strange is that someone would stop filming at that point. Your explaination is akin to "how long is a piece of string"!

[Sober Lark]

Looks like they will have to review the capability to evacuate in under 90 seconds as most seem to carry their hand baggage with them - unlike in simulated exercises.

[littco]

It's being reported in the media now that the pilot made an announcement to the passengers prior to landing that there was a problem with the landing gear and to prepare for an emergency landing.

Can't believe that's true for a minute! No emergency call, no hold , no apparent attempt to resolve the issue yet Captain says prepare for an emergency landing..

[skydler]

Cabin crew won't wait for EVAC command when it's obvious.

Only if it pertains to smoke or fire inside the cabin. If outside only then they still have to wait

[Keg]

For those so keen to criticise the decision not to evacuate in Singapore recently. In training too many people treat an evacuation like the end of a fairy tale '...and they lived happily ever after'. But every evacuation has significant risks and it's even worse if there's smoke, fire, foam, and vehicles surrounding the aircraft. The same accusation was levelled at the QF32 incident in Singapore, even though the number one engine couldn't be shut down and despite everyone disembarking safely. For now can we just be happy that evacuating worked safely this time and delaying worked safely a few weeks ago. When the detailed reports come out in due course we can make a more balanced assessment of the crew's actions.

A good outcome does not indicate an effective decision making process. Plenty of people have made appalling decisions over the years without a bad outcome. Some people have made extraordinary decisions in diabolical situations and not lived to see the next dawn.

Every decision to stay has significant risks. The point often lost in the QF32 incident was the crew had the ability with QF procedures to disembark with slides and not as an evac. This allowed them to nominate which slides they wanted to use and to do it at a more sedate rate that minimised injuries- ie they could have used main deck only slides and taken their time to get set up properly on the ground with appropriately briefed ABPs to assist.

[Xeque]

The pax themselves will confirm whether they had a warning from the flight deck. The speed (as reported) of the evacuation would tend to support that.
Whatever - absolute 100% well done to the cabin crew to get them all out safe in 45 seconds. Awesome work guys.
The report in the Aviation Herald is significant in that the Tower reminded the crew to lower the gear on final followed by a go round. Was this as a result of visual sight that the gear wasn't down or is it something they always say?
Can I ask the experts please, bearing in mind the time it takes to spool up idling engines, how close to the ground do you have to be for a touchdown to be inevitable?

[P24BA2]

The 777 Windhear Go Around says "Do not change gear or flap configuration until wind shear is no longer a factor".

[too_much]

The fatality was within the emergency services workers not pax & crew.

[ACMS]

A person that dedicates their life to saving others has died? That's not good.

[Wing Flex]

From an eye witness (pilot on the ground at the time)
They touched down hard then aborted the landing which lead to a go around. They were in the process of a go-around (configuration) but it sank back on the runway. Maybe that's why the landing gear appears to be up as it skidded on the ground. It most probably sank/fell back onto the runway due to extreme weather (temperature, low pressure/the gear doors opening/then closing i.e: increased drag) and that the B773 performance struggles at that those conditions. Look at FCOM2 for the 773.

There is discussion about possible windshear. Wind direction may not justify that but when EK aircraft land behind each other at Dxb they have an amended approval of 3nm separation to help aliviate congestion. An agreement between EK and the airport authority. Could this contribute? Did an EK aircraft land infront? Many questions but all will be answered.
Thankfully no lives lost.
Captain - local
F/O - Australian

[atakacs]

Seems they've now censored the tweet. Video of pax on airfield been removed!!
I've seen it (as many others I guess) but indeed taken down.
To be honest nothing major to report - a bunch of mostly Indian people walking away from the aircraft, some carrying cabin luggage. Seems pretty orderly, although not much ground support / firefighter to be seen.

[chute packer]

Pax on airfield tweet here:
https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/760804140154970113

[MATELO]

Did an EK aircraft land infront?

An EK 773 from Chennai landed before it.

[ChazR]

Whatever the cause, I am in awe of the cabin crew and flight deck crew. To evacuate every passenger and all the crew from a total hull loss is beyond professional. It's legendary.

We always study every aspect of a failure. I hope we study every aspect of this success.

With rumours of a serious outcome for a member of the response team - we need to learn from that, too. Those who rush to help can be at highest risk themselves.

But, frankly, DAMN! Is the 777 the toughest jet ever? Built like a tank, but with no extra weight.

[Ian W]

A good outcome does not indicate an effective decision making process. Plenty of people have made appalling decisions over the years without a bad outcome. Some people have made extraordinary decisions in diabolical situations and not lived to see the next dawn.

Every decision to stay has significant risks. The point often lost in the QF32 incident was the crew had the ability with QF procedures to disembark with slides and not as an evac. This allowed them to nominate which slides they wanted to use and to do it at a more sedate rate that minimised injuries- ie they could have used main deck only slides and taken their time to get set up properly on the ground with appropriately briefed ABPs to assist.

So if a 'good decision' is made and because of that decision a number of pax are injured and some die, whereas had that action not been taken all would have survived uninjured. You would still defend the decision as a good one? Interesting logic.

The word decision implies that there are alternative courses of action. Those who claim 'this is a no-brainer' are effectively saying there is no 'decision' it is an automatic action. Easier to automate out flight crew when everything is 'no brainer' - like maintain pitch and power (another no brainer action proposed in other threads).

[harrogate]

Several pax running with their carry on baggage cases!! When will they ever learn?

Not sure learning curve is possible, working on the assumption it's probably not the same pax involved in every crash.

Maybe given they just survived a plane crash some are in shock and aren't really in the clearest, most logical state of mind.

[marcoalza]

Good point hg.
Hopefully I'll never experience that state of mind...

[asdf1234]

Any pax between me and the exit seen reaching for their luggage in the bins, putting my life at risk, gets punched by me, repeatedly if needs be.

All pax photographed with their hand luggage need to be arrested for disobeying the lawful instruction of the flight crew.

I'm only glad that there were no pax or crew fatalities but one day people will die because ignorant pax deem their hand luggage more important than a human life.

Time to introduce locking overhead bins. Only accessible when the the seatbelt sign has been turned off. Simples!

[Wirbelsturm]

B773 performance struggles at that those conditions.

Not so sure I agree with that statement. Perhaps a heavy 773 with a single engine failure would struggle in those conditions with it's climb out limit but both engines, at the end of the flight with minimal fuel? The climb performance would be more than adequate. The QRH puts the landing climb limit weight with F20 (landing F30, go around F20) for 49 degrees at about 300 tonnes giving approx 50 tonnes over MLW.

The difficulty is separating the 'training scenario' that we all get in the sim of majority single engine go arounds with the real life scenario where a go around will often be conducted with both donks operating.

Personally, excluding the possibility of severe windshear, I don't think aircraft performance will have been an issue but that is hypothesis on my part and therefore speculation.

[etrang]

The only thing more foolish that trying to get your luggage off a crashed plane, asdf, is starting a fight in the middle of an evacuation.

And locking overhead bins would only make the situation worse as pax try and figure out why they wont open. There is a simple solution however, don't let pax take any luggage into the cabin in the first place.

[asdf1234]

The only thing more foolish that trying to get your luggage off a crashed plane, asdf, is starting a fight in the middle of an evacuation.

I'm not fighting them, i'm punching them to the ground in order to save my life.

[flyonthewall]

Could it be that on the initial heavy touchdown something came adrift and power was not available from the no:2 engine? That plus a hot day, tailwind and an old straight 300 (not a great performer on a good day), may explain the alleged 'sinking back onto the runway' theory. Pure speculation of course...

[Super VC-10]

If they had a problem configuring, they would have aborted the approach.

If they knew in advance, they never would have been allowed to land at DXB.

B:mad:T!

If the captain of an aircraft has an in-flight emergency and decides that an airport is the most appropriate place to go to, he will go there. The airport authorities don't get a say in the matter, even though they may wish he went to the next airport. Subsequent disruption is not a factor in deciding where to go.

[Wirbelsturm]

F20 Gear down landing rate of climb for 225T at 49 degrees gives you approx 390fpm climb at sea level.

Things get interesting if you forget to go from F30 to F20 in the Go-Around.

F30 Gear down landing rate of climb at 225T at 49 degrees gives you approx minus 190fpm at sea level!

Note, all these figures are for SINGLE ENGINE.

Performance with both engines even at 49 degrees is not an issue.


No airport will tell you you can't land with an emergency. They may 'suggest' other options but, as Captain, it's your choice.

Edited to add that these are for the 777-300 GE115. My operator doesn't have the straight 300 so willing to be corrected. :D

[Ranger One]

Time to introduce locking overhead bins. Only accessible when the the seatbelt sign has been turned off. Simples!

Great idea - until someone's laptop lithium battery goes into runaway and the locking system fails in the 'locked' mode... :ugh:

[Infieldg]

and why should you attempt to land?
Cos they were already on fire? :) I do wish someone would clarify the 'near miss' report tho, if cutting the wingtip off in flight and starting a fire qualifies as a near miss then that'd do it :) Mind you given the near miss between two unrelated planes in India , the originating country of this flight, perhaps the media is mis-attributing an entirely different incident.

Oh my God who is this pink faced bearded bespeckled buffoon on Al Jazeera right now, he looks like the lights are triggering his fight-or-flight response but sadly he opted for the former and didn't leave the studio, so merely opined that something ... probably ... went ... wrong.... is it so unreasonable to expect that someone called upon to give "expert" testimony following a life threatening emergency would have the internet?

[keepitrealok]

BT!

If the captain of an aircraft has an in-flight emergency and decides that an airport is the most appropriate place to go to, he will go there. The airport authorities don't get a say in the matter, even though they may wish he went to the next airport. Subsequent disruption is not a factor in deciding where to go.
Super VC-10 is online now Report Post

Nice rant Super VC-10, but ignorant.

If a jet has a problem that is going to cause problems with the airport - e.g. a Hydraulic leak - then he won't be allowed into OMDB, it'll be sent to OMDW, a 5 min flight away.

Local procedures. You can rant all you like about Captain's authority, if the problem doesn't occur on final, and there is time to plan for it, the jet is going to OMDW.

[ddd]

Last Update: 2016-08-03 12:57:11 GMT
An Emirates Airlines Boeing 777-300, registration A6-EMW performing flight EK-521 from Thiruvananthapuram (India) to Dubai (United Arab Emirates) with 282 passengers and 18 crew, was on final approach to Dubai's runway 12L at 12:41L (08:41Z) but attempted to go around from low height. The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames. All occupants evacuated safely, no injuries are being reported. The aircraft burned down completely.

The airline reported: "Emirates can confirm that an incident happened at Dubai International Airport on 3rd August 2016 at about 12.45pm local time."

United Arab Emirates Government confirmed an Emirates aircraft arriving from India suffered a crash landing at Dubai Airport, all passengers have been evacuated, there are no reports of injuries.

According to ATC recordings the aircraft performed a normal approach and landing, there was no priority or emergency declared. Upon contacting tower tower reminded the crew of lowering the gear and cleared the aircraft to land. Another approach reported on tower frequency. About 2 minutes after EK-521 reported on tower, the crew reported going around, tower instructed the aircraft to climb to 4000 feet, the crew acknowledged climbing to 4000 feet, a few seconds later tower instructs the next arrival to go around and alerts emergency services. The position of the aircraft is described near the end of the runway.

Related NOTAM:
A1156/16 - AD CLSD. 03 AUG 11:20 2016 UNTIL 03 AUG 14:00 2016. CREATED: 03 AUG 11:18 2016

A1155/16 - AD CLSD. 03 AUG 10:00 2016 UNTIL 03 AUG 12:00 2016. CREATED: 03 AUG 10:07 2016

Metars (Airport: Dubai, Dubai International Airport):
OMDB 030900Z 11021KT 3000 BLDU NSC 49/07 Q0993 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 1500
OMDB 030800Z 14012KT 100V180 6000 NSC 48/09 Q0994 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 4000 DU
OMDB 030749Z 14012KT 110V180 6000 NSC 47/09 Q0994 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 4000DU
OMDB 030700Z 06007KT 360V100 8000 NSC 44/10 Q0995 NOSIG
OMDB 030600Z 06005KT 350V100 8000 NSC 42/12 Q0995 NOSIG

The last seconds of slide out after failed go-around:


The aircraft erupting into flames (Video: Kazim Abbas):


The wreckage of A6-EMW after fire was extinguished (Photo: dotEmirates):


A6-EMW on fire at Dubai (Photo: Airport WebCams):


Map (Graphics: AVH/Google Earth):

[asdf1234]

Great idea - until someone's laptop lithium battery goes into runaway and the locking system fails in the 'locked' mode... :ugh:

So the laptop battery goes awol in an unlocked bin at 38000ft. You still have an overhead bin fire to contend with. Who says the unlocked bin fire will be noticed and acted upon in time?

Locking the bins when the seatbelt sign is on will prevent injuries and potentially save lives throughout periods or turbulence, post landing taxy and emergency evacuations.

Go bang your head a bit more, you seem to enjoy it.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

I know FR24 isn't totally reliable, but there were two aircraft immediately ahead of, and behind the aircraft. No known emergency declared prior to touchdown, and no emergency squawk. So the report of planning for an emergency landing doesn't look right. Unless quickly announced during a short lived windshear event, which I can't see happening, as the crew would be likely fighting the conditions.

This is Emirates' very first hull loss in 31 years of ops.

With respect to the crew and passengers.

[JammedStab]

Could it be that on the initial heavy touchdown something came adrift and power was not available from the no:2 engine? That plus a hot day, tailwind and an old straight 300 (not a great performer on a good day), may explain the alleged 'sinking back onto the runway' theory. Pure speculation of course...

All just speculation. But it will be looked into.

Another thing among the many things that will be looked into from a low level go-around is if you press the TOGA switches to go-around but TO/GA is inhibited while on the ground. If you don't manually push the thrust levers forward you are trying to go around with idle thrust. I believe it resulted in an MD-80 crash in Thailand.

Added...

Remember...TOGA is inhibited on the ground. As related to this accident. You heard it here first.

[4runner]

An Emirati and an Aussie. That's like Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover teaming up.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Regarding Wiflex' observation of the events. How about last-second decision change? Eg. The PF decides and commands go around after a hard touchdown. Then he changes his decision, while the other pilot already retracts the gear... This happened before in my company and resulted in a belly landing (fire/major damage though...)

[lomapaseo]

There is some possibility that squat switches might have played a part in the g-around. Perhaps the cockpit procedures might not be what is being presumed by some of the readers here.

[Fortissimo]

No, dsc810. Those with a brain leave their bags behind rather than risk their own and other people's lives while they delay the evac to collect things from the overheads, create trip hazards and hurl heavy bags down slides in case someone needs injuring that way.


Those with even larger brains keep items such as passports, phones and wallets about their person so there is no need for decision and/or delay in the event of an evac.

[sarah737]

This makes me think of a sim exercise my company did after a couple of inadvertent flap retractions. Low altitude go around with PNF retracting flaps iso gear.

[skkm]

First action for G/A in the 777 is Flap 20. The lever is gated so pretty hard to inadvertently take it further than that.

[Wirbelsturm]

If the Go-Around was initiated still whilst airborne and a touchdown occured then the F/D GA mode would still be available with TOGA.

If the GA was initiated after touchdown but before reverse selection then the manoeuvre must be flown manually and the GA mode selected with the TOGA switches once airborne.

It can get loud and messy in that case!

[Cazalet33]

attempted to go around from low height. The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames.

Windshear; Tailwind; Temp 49°C; QNH 994; Density altitude 4,620'; Go around; Positive climb; Gear up; R/T call.

Which ingredient was missing in that list?

[Sailvi767]

This makes me think of a sim exercise my company did after a couple of inadvertent flap retractions. Low altitude go around with PNF retracting flaps iso gear.

On the 777 in a go around you retract the flaps before the gear. The go around flap position is gated at 20 so virtually impossible to screw it up.

[Sailvi767]

Nice rant Super VC-10, but ignorant.

If a jet has a problem that is going to cause problems with the airport - e.g. a Hydraulic leak - then he won't be allowed into OMDB, it'll be sent to OMDW, a 5 min flight away.

Local procedures. You can rant all you like about Captain's authority, if the problem doesn't occur on final, and there is time to plan for it, the jet is going to OMDW.

I am curious, everyone seems to hint that Emirites management rules the airport and airline with a iron fist. The airport consistently reported a tailwind in excess of the normal 10 knot limit both before and after the landing. If a pilot refused to land with that wind report and demanded a landing into the traffic flow would that request be honored and would he face any action from management for the delays that might cause at the airport?

[Flightmech]

Looks like DXB is open again.

[Keg]

So if a 'good decision' is made and because of that decision a number of pax are injured and some die, whereas had that action not been taken all would have survived uninjured. You would still defend the decision as a good one? Interesting logic.

Let's use the SQ example. The risk of an explosion if staying? Considerable but in reality quite unknown given the wing was on fire. The risk of death in staying? Considerable but in reality quite unknown given the wing was on fire. The risk of injuring someone by evacuating? Likely. The risk of someone dying by evacuating? Very low. Personally I'd take the known low risk of some injuries by evacuating than the Unknown risk of catastrophic injuries and death by staying. If they'd evacuated after using an appropriate decision making process and injured people I would have found it reasonable and defended their decision.

I'll say it again though for the avoidance of doubt. A good outcome doesn't mean that a good decision was made. Perhaps they made no decision and were simply lucky.



The word decision implies that there are alternative courses of action. Those who claim 'this is a no-brainer' are effectively saying there is no 'decision' it is an automatic action. Easier to automate out flight crew when everything is 'no brainer' - like maintain pitch and power (another no brainer action proposed in other threads).

Was this an attempt to verbal me? I never claimed it was a no brainer. Others may have but you imply that I have. Even a 'no brainer' decision is only a good one if it went through an appropriate decision making process. I'd contend that there is always a decision to be made. Sometimes through lack of planning, foresight, experience or even information people can still make a bad one.

[MLHeliwrench]

Would it have overrun the runway and had a more deadly outcome with the gear down? Or is it just sand off the end?

[whitelighter]

What sort of damage would this have done to the runway surface?
Surely going to impact on DXB operations in the short term?

[Julio747]

Changing the Aircraft configuration during a Windshear escape Manoeuvre??? I hope not

That is what I was thinking. WS escape does not call for wheels up!

[misd-agin]

G/a steps on any a/c -

Power and pitch change.
Flaps to initial g/a position
Positive rate - gear up.

If using automation, and it doesn't perform as desired, manual intervention is required.

[Wirbelsturm]

Unless it's windshear.

In which case its call the windshear go around, hit the TOGA switches and wait/follow the FD!

Once it has been confirmed the event is over (both entry and exit!) then call go-around 'flaps' etc.

[White None]

G/a steps on any a/c -

NOT for a WS G/A

[Gamik]

Is this first ever hull loss for EK?

[Sir Niall Dementia]

With regard to the pax with their carry on baggage, I was at an operator's meeting a few months ago and the subject was brought up, one solution was that all rescued carry-ons should be removed from the owners and destroyed, my favourite was placing a sniper on the fire truck next to the guy with the foam gun, as the foam is flowing the sniper picks off anyone carrying their baggage.

Personally I was wear a security pouch under my shirt with my cell phone, some cash and a credit card (or two)and my passport, having had to evacuate an aeroplane in a hurry as a passenger, I found afterwards that those four items would have made life an awful lot simpler.

The same pouch sits next to my seat during every take-off and landing at work.

[Airbubba]

I am curious, everyone seems to hint that Emirites management rules the airport and airline with a iron fist. The airport consistently reported a tailwind in excess of the normal 10 knot limit both before and after the landing. If a pilot refused to land with that wind report and demanded a landing into the traffic flow would that request be honored and would he face any action from management for the delays that might cause at the airport?

Not rightly sure I see that in excess of 10 knot tailwind. :confused:

The mishap occurred at about 0845Z and they 'landed' on runway 12L.

Here's the reported hourly weather observations from an earlier post on this thread:

SA 03/08/2016 09:00->
METAR OMDB 030900Z 11021KT 3000 BLDU NSC 49/07 Q0993 WS ALL
RWY TEMPO 35015KT 1500=

SA 03/08/2016 08:00->
METAR OMDB 030800Z 14012KT 100V180 6000 NSC 48/09 Q0994 WS
ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 4000 DU=

Are you looking at the TEMPO perhaps?

Some airlines buy data from the manufacturer for 15 knot tailwinds and also higher OAT's, not sure if it is available for the Triple.

If you demanded a landing into the traffic flow at ATL or JFK you'd probably hear from the chief pilot's office, right?

[Julio747]

Any pax between me and the exit seen reaching for their luggage in the bins, putting my life at risk, gets punched by me, repeatedly if needs be.

All pax photographed with their hand luggage need to be arrested for disobeying the lawful instruction of the flight crew.

I'm only glad that there were no pax or crew fatalities but one day people will die because ignorant pax deem their hand luggage more important than a human life.

Time to introduce locking overhead bins. Only accessible when the the seatbelt sign has been turned off. Simples!

It's good in theory. But in some parts of the world, 80% of the pax will burn trying to open the bins....

[g109]

To me it looks like the landing gear was for whatever reason retracted prematurely so when the aircraft settled back on the runway, which can sometimes happen during a go around it crashed on its belly fuselage.
These kind of accidents have happened before.
If it turn out to be that scenario then the flight crew would be to blame.
Nevertheless the cabin crew did an outstanding job getting out everyone alive and should be commended.
And yes, this is the first hull loss in EK history and the worst accident to date.
Also, I can confirm it was an emirati Capt. and expat FO.

soon we will know exactly what happened.

[Sailvi767]

Would it have overrun the runway and had a more deadly outcome with the gear down? Or is it just sand off the end?

Airline class Aircraft stop quicker with brakes and rubber then sliding on their bellies. Most passengers have no idea how quickly and how effective tires and wheel brakes really are since they never see anything even approaching a max application. If you need to stop quick your better off with the tires as long as you are on the pavement.

[FullWings]

Those surface winds - easterly TEMPO northerly?
Never seen such weirdness the nine years I worked at airfields.
Must be very tricky to handle.
Looking at the METARs for the time of the accident:
OMDB 031000Z 11018KT 5000 BLDU NSC 49/05 Q0993 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 1500
OMDB 031048Z VRB06KT 6000 NSC 41/24 Q0992 WS ALL RWY TEMPO 35015KT 3000 DU
It is reminiscent of a sea breeze or sea air incursion, with the lowering of temperature and increase in dew point. Happens quite a bit at airfields that get coastal influences.

If it was a different airmass moving inland, you can get odd effects during the transition, like tailwinds on both ends of the runway. I guess it would pick up a fair bit of dust as well as the TEMPO 1500 alludes.

[GlueBall]

"The EVAC command doesn't come straight away, it takes time to run the appropriate EICAS then the EVAC checklist etc. .."

This reminds me of a chap who had busted his sim check because of entering a hold to run the checklist with an engine fire that wouldn't extinguish. :ooh:

[Methersgate]

So the laptop battery goes awol in an unlocked bin at 38000ft. You still have an overhead bin fire to contend with. Who says the unlocked bin fire will be noticed and acted upon in time?

Locking the bins when the seatbelt sign is on will prevent injuries and potentially save lives throughout periods or turbulence, post landing taxy and emergency evacuations.

Go bang your head a bit more, you seem to enjoy it.
I hesitate to chip in to this thread, as a shipping man not an airline man, but we have similar situations (getting four thousand passengers off a ship...) and we would not ever lock the bins; a passenger may "freeze" and continue trying to open a locked bin, which would cause more of an obstruction than is caused by the passenger trying to get their carry on baggage.

[Icare320]

I'm wondering about the ARFF response time and the fire fighting action. If any ppl can give me some information about those issues I would be very very interested!

[bakerpictures]

From the Dubai Media Twitter feed:
"Ahmed bin Saeed: We pay tribute to the firefighter who lost his life fighting the blaze. We thank all teams that dealt with the incident."

[kipper the dog]

Airbubba, all EK Triples are certified for 15kts tailwind limitation. And yes, this is the first hull loss although there is some debate over wether the A340-500 "incident" in Melbourne a few years back should have been a hull loss or not.

[cwatters]

Report here mentions pilot announced it would be emergency landing. Accuracy unknown..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/03/passengers-evacuated-after-plane-crash-lands-at-dubai-airport

[langleybaston]

QUOTE:

It is reminiscent of a sea breeze or sea air incursion, with the lowering of temperature and increase in dew point. Happens quite a bit at airfields that get coastal influences.

Absolutely correct. I was a forecaster at RAF Nicosia 1961-64. The sea breeze always arrived with a wallop, and met the [from memory] light NW'ly so that we had opposing wind directions from each end of the runway. Sometimes we had massive gusts and dust-devils. Open doors would slam, and the temperature change suddenly.

Very difficult to predict with the state of the art then, even though I did a lot of research including blagging time as observer in Army AC choppers [Scout?].

As for predicting the timing, no day was the same as another. Wind-shear? hardly taught or understood.

If, as I believe, the local Met staff are taught by UK Met Office, they will be in a much better case than in my day.

Congrats to all involved on the ground, and the cabin crew. Jury out on the pilots, but I am glad all worked out.

[DaveReidUK]

And yes, this is the first hull loss although there is some debate over whether the A340-500 "incident" in Melbourne a few years back should have been a hull loss or not.

I'd guess from the fact that EK flew that A340 for a further five years, the debate wasn't very prolonged.

[flyallnite]

If this turns out to be pilot error, can we expect to see the flight crew jailed, or worse? What is the protocol in this part of the world? I'm sure their passports will be retained for starters. If they are expats, I hope their nations are able to offer them legal assistance. Could be a nightmare for these guys and their families. I wish them luck.

[GHEVY]

What irks me is how airlinea are now downplaying accidents in the media.


This burned out Emirates hulk is according to the Emirates website the result of an "Operational Incident". Air Canada landing short of the runway at Halifax was a "hard landing". I guess my frontwheel tire blowing and car crashing into a tree would be an operational incident.


Anything to avoid words like crash or crashlanding or even simply accident.

[Gove N.T.]

I'm not fighting them, i'm punching them to the ground in order to save my life.

your punch would encourage another, panic ensues, people die. Thanks a bunch

[His dudeness]

My thoughts are with the Crew. No matter what the cause, it has gotta suck to be them right now

+1. Even more so with a dead fire fighter.

[BillS]

Over the last few years I have had occasion to analyse very large datasets of wind shear levels. Agreed this was measured at lower levels, 125 m and below, but it indicates what must be occurring above. It is often assumed to conform to simple formulae. It does not. I frequently saw occasions when wind speed at low levels was much greater than at high levels. Completely counter intuitive. As stated elsewhere, we have much to learn about wind shear.

[notapilot15]

Any info on who was flying.

[EK380]

Any info on who was flying.

Listening to the ATC tape, likely the captain.

[deeceethree]

Listening to the ATC tape, likely the captain.
Apologies for missing this, if it is already here on this thread, but where can that ATC recording be found?

Well done to the fire crew. Not sure how one of you lost a life during this episode, with all pax and crew off anyway, save having a heart attack or stroke.
I did wonder if that explosion (apparently after pax and crew had evacuated?) might have had something to do with it? Sad that there had to be a fatality amongst the rescue crew, everyone aboard having already got out. :(

With regards to the surprise being expressed here that pax were leaving with hand baggage - don't be! There are other examples on the web of photos/video of pax doing this, a fairly recent one being the BA 777 engine fire at Las Vegas. The pax will just not listen! :rolleyes:

[oldoberon]

Would it have overrun the runway and had a more deadly outcome with the gear down? Or is it just sand off the end?

you would believe what is around it, all that sand and they build up to the edge of the airfield

http://i67.tinypic.com/24o5xd2.jpg

[ph-sbe]

So the laptop battery goes awol in an unlocked bin at 38000ft. You still have an overhead bin fire to contend with. Who says the unlocked bin fire will be noticed and acted upon in time?


If an LiON battery goes nuts in a bin at 38000ft, I rather have that bin locked. First of all, you'll have a very hard time extinguishing the fire anyway. Second, let the smoke stay in the bin. Third, don't help the fire by adding oxygen. You'll have a lot more panic if you have a burning laptop in the isle.

[3Greens]

Well, you might prefer that method, but that isn't by any stretch the recommended method or way to deal with it. Perhaps you should ask your cabin crew what they would do? I would hope it isn't the same as what you would do.
He addition of oxygen in battery fires is negligible, the major differance with these types of fire is its a thermal runaway and not a conventional fire.

[Julio747]

you would believe what is around it, all that sand and they build up to the edge of the airfield

http://i67.tinypic.com/24o5xd2.jpg

UAE is fairly small as it happens. Take a look at many major airports around the world and you won't see much difference....

[newfoundglory]

That is what I was thinking. WS escape does not call for wheels up!
Could wheels up have been the best outcome for this though? IIRC the BA 777 at LHR had a massive fuel leak because the landing gear punctured the fuel tanks when it crashed?

[Cows getting bigger]

The weather conditions quoted are quite usual for Dubai. As far as wind direction is concerned, you can almost set your watch by the change from Easterlies to Westerlies.

Built-up area, I think it slightly disingenuous to highlight the issue for reasons previously given and the fact that Dubai's runways are over 4000m in length; it is a big bit of real-estate. Furthermore, unlike lots of other countries, they are investing in the 6-runway mega airport at Dubai World.

[MATELO]

Could wheels up have been the best outcome for this though?

Judging by the burnt out carcass on the runway, I doubt it.

[donpizmeov]

Think you will find the wheels were down.

[armchairpilot94116]

Some stray thoughts:

1. Outstanding performance of cabin crew in this incident and the China Airlines Okinawa incident , with no loss of life among crew and passengers, point to Immediate EVAC as the correct response to fire on ground. No harm done in NOT evacuating in the SQ case does not mean it was the best course of action in view of Most Probable Outcome scenarios.

The two above mentioned "real world" cases prove that in an emergency, even with all the chaos and passengers taking their luggage that IT WORKS. EVAC WORKS.

2. The ability of modern airliners being able to carry a lot of passenger luggage in overhead bins and thus freeing up cargo space for goods is resulting in freighter use being reduced. And All Cargo operations being greatly impacted.

And has resulted in passengers being able to carry off more and more and heavier and heavier luggage off aircraft in Emergencies.

We are not going to be able to stop passengers removing their luggage. It is human nature.

We need to look at REDUCING the ability to carry on baggage. Having smaller bins ,not BIGGER. Bigger bins result in more luggage being carried off and possibly falling out of bins.

Many airlines are charging for checking in bags. This should be reverse. There should instead be charges for hand carry. And strictly only small items should be allowed.

3. Tragic loss of life of the firefighter in this case. Any operational or procedural mistakes (if any) should be corrected . Fires are dangerous for all involved obviously.

[ATCO1962]

Banana...to which CCTV footage do you refer? If it's the Biman Bangladesh one from a few years ago, then a few media outlets are falsely using it.

[DaveReidUK]

Outstanding performance of cabin crew in this incident and the China Airlines Okinawa incident , with no loss of life among crew and passengers, point to Immediate EVAC as the correct response to fire on ground. No harm done in NOT evacuating in the SQ case does not mean it was the best course of action in view of Most Probable Outcome scenarios.

Just when we thought the SQ debate had run its course and there was nothing new that could usefully be added ...

Heaven forbid that the respective investigations - EK and SQ - should both conclude that the crew in question made the correct decision in the (significantly different) circumstances.

[Julio747]

Some stray thoughts:

1. Outstanding performance of cabin crew in this incident and the China Airlines Okinawa incident , with no loss of life among crew and passengers, point to Immediate EVAC as the correct response to fire on ground. No harm done in NOT evacuating in the SQ case does not mean it was the best course of action in view of Most Probable Outcome scenarios.

The two above mentioned "real world" cases prove that in an emergency, even with all the chaos and passengers taking their luggage that IT WORKS. EVAC WORKS.

2. The ability of modern airliners being able to carry a lot of passenger luggage in overhead bins and thus freeing up cargo space for goods is resulting in freighter use being reduced. And All Cargo operations being greatly impacted.

And has resulted in passengers being able to carry off more and more and heavier and heavier luggage off aircraft in Emergencies.

We are not going to be able to stop passengers removing their luggage. It is human nature.

We need to look at REDUCING the ability to carry on baggage. Having smaller bins ,not BIGGER. Bigger bins result in more luggage being carried off and possibly falling out of bins.

Many airlines are charging for checking in bags. This should be reverse. There should instead be charges for hand carry. And strictly only small items should be allowed.

3. Tragic loss of life of the firefighter in this case. Any operational or procedural mistakes (if any) should be corrected . Fires are dangerous for all involved obviously.

Well said, sir. All points totally valid.

Pax are humans not just slf. If they are off, they want passport and money. And perhaps other stuff. A reality of life. Forget trying to control it, you have to work around it as best you can. As suggested by armchair.

He probably knows my views on the sq fire... Evac does work and again, minor injuries only?

[Banana4321]

Banana...to which CCTV footage do you refer? If it's the Biman Bangladesh one from a few years ago, then a few media outlets are falsely using it.
I just checked. You are correct. Post deleted. Thank you.

[KTF]

Evac video has been posted: https://mobile.twitter.com/rehanquereshi/status/760883989490040833

[CONSO]

at the very start of the video at
Flights to resume after Emirates flight catches fire at Dubai airport | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/uae/firefighter-dies-responding-to-emirates-plane-fire-at-dubai-airport)

NOTE- scroll down a ways to the description that starts Boeing’s 777 model is the largest twin-engine airliner in production and the most used wide-body. Emirates is the largest operator of the plane. The aircraft is also one of the safest jets in the world, with only a handful of them having suffered irreparable damage since the model’s introduction, according to Aviation Safety Network. and look at the video below.

one can clearly see the engine above the wing. I'm sure it puzzles many as to how it got there.:sad:

Consider the following.

!) BA design for decades ( and probably Airbus ) has been to protect the front spar in the event of a failure of engine mounting.

2)Linkages and ' fuse' pins are located such that in case of mounting failure ( in flight ) , the thrust of the engine will pivot it up and over the major wing structure before total detachment IF still generating thrust.

SO IMHO- the engine at the time of impact was at a high ( max? ) thrust level such that the impact failed at least part of the pivot linkage, allowing the engine to pivot up and over the front spar, thus one sees the engine above the wing facing aft but still partially attached to the wing.

[LEM]

I believe this accident will demonstrate that checking for a positive rate of climb after a bounced landing is NOT enough of a condition to raise the gear.
Ironically, when they raised the gear, there actually was a positive rate.... After the bounce.

There must be a second condition: full thrust obtained by the engines, not just TOGA selected but with engines not spooled up!

But... a pilot should know this instinctively.

[Julio747]

Just when we thought the SQ debate had run its course and there was nothing new that could usefully be added ...

Heaven forbid that the respective investigations - EK and SQ - should both conclude that the crew in question made the correct decision in the (significantly different) circumstances.

Sorry Dave. Different circumstances, I will grant you. But...

EQ... Immediate evac, history shows a good call.

SQ... No evac. History tells us they all survived. By the skin of their teeth, perhaps? But that doesn't make it a good call in my book.

At least we can agree on a happy ending for SQ. Alas not for EQ, with the death of a firefighter.

I have no doubt that if SQ had evacuated, they all would have survived. And would have been at much lower risk....

This is not a game of hindsight. We are in the business of minimising risk.

[E_S_P]

oldoberon (http://www.pprune.org/members/428356-oldoberon) you would believe what is around it, all that sand and they build up to the edge of the airfield


I seem to remember back in the late 70's, early 80's it was mainly sand around the airport, its just the manic expansion of Dubai which has made it as it is today :ok:

[MrSnuggles]

Re: Locked overhead bins.

Li-Ion batteries create their own oxygen in case of fire. Absolutely insane to think it is a good idea to "lock them in there to not create chaos in the cabin". They need to be removed ASAP and put in a container of water. Don't fool around with that stuff, or you'll have created a much larger chaos for the relatives.

[Pontius Navigator]

Cabin Luggage

If my bag is under my seat I might pull it out to clear my exit and keep hold.

If the locker bursts open I might grab my bag to keep the exit clear and keep hold.

I certainly would not open locker and pull my luggage out.

[Julio747]

I believe this accident will demonstrate that checking for a positive rate of climb after a bounced landing is NOT enough of a condition to raise the gear.
Ironically, when they raised the gear, there actually was a positive rate.... After the bounce.

There must be a second condition: full thrust obtained by the engines, not just TOGA selected but with engines not spooled up!

But... a pilot should know this instinctively.

Nothing wrong with your logic. But I think the probability that this happened is very low indeed. This is not a tiger moth landing....

But bouncing... Positive rate of climb... Engines not spooled up enough.... No. Sorry. He would have put it down, surely?

Are you suggesting he got a GA command half way through a bounce???? Nonsense....

I admit I have no idea what happened here, but that seems farfetched...

[Banana4321]

All these people talking about what they would do in the event of an evac and they haven't got the first idea of how they would react. Perhaps best to not guess eh? It isn't what this thread is about.

[Dopsonj]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YxCyeaOVOU

Video from INSIDE the plane during evac....

[Julio747]

Re: Locked overhead bins.

Li-Ion batteries create their own oxygen in case of fire. Absolutely insane to think it is a good idea to "lock them in there to not create chaos in the cabin". They need to be removed ASAP and put in a container of water. Don't fool around with that stuff, or you'll have created a much larger chaos for the relatives.

Lithium ion batteries have their issues. But "creating their own oxygen" is only something God (and maybe plants) can do!

You might want to revisit some basic chemistry....

They do, however, contain a lot of energy that can cause a problem, even in the absence of oxygen... Is that what you meant?

[suninmyeyes]

Newfoundglory you wrote Could wheels up have been the best outcome for this though? IIRC the BA 777 at LHR had a massive fuel leak because the landing gear punctured the fuel tanks when it crashed?


The fuel tanks were not punctured in the LHR accident. Fuel was coming out through the fuel pipes to the engines. If you are crashing on land it is always best to have the gear down. If the gear breaks off it cushions the impact. We are taught that it is even better to have just one undercarriage leg down even a strut with no wheels on it (that would make a real mess of the runway) than to land totally gear up. If the gear had been down on this aircraft the likely possibilities would have been:


1) It stayed on the ground and would have been brought to a stop.
2) It touched the ground and bounced into the air and climbed away.


I cannot think of any situation in a windshear incident close to the ground where it is better to have the gear up than down. I remember an incident at LHR many years ago when a Trident landing on 23 hit strong windshear at 100 feet and tried to goaorund. The Captain raised the nose and put on power which came on just as the plane touched down quite smoothly, the Captain elected to close the throttles and stayed on the ground.

[Obba]

Dopsonj's link at 1:20 shows engine on fire...

[expurser]

oldoberon
Quote:
you would believe what is around it, all that sand and they build up to the edge of the airfield. I seem to remember back in the late 70's, early 80's it was mainly sand around the airport, Me too. Great job by the Cabin Crew

[oldchina]

I'd rather be in a "panic" of Singaporeans ...

[obrock]

in that evac video you may observeral things:

- like a rushed normnal deboarding...almost everyone grabs his hand luggage... strangely you don´t hear any CC voices at that time... usually they are very loud, but maybe they had to do with
- the decision which exits to use: the left hand side seemd not to be good due to the strong wind on it, at least one slide is visibly not usable due to that wind
- at 2:09 you can see the position of the flaps... looks like 30 to me, but I am unsure, also you can see a little fire under engine no 1... I guess the later explosion was on the right

[Deep and fast]

Any info on crew experience? Training flight?

[HEMS driver]

Apologies for missing this, if it is already here on this thread, but where can that ATC recording be found?http://archive-server.liveatc.net/omdb/OMDB-Twr-118.75-Aug-03-2016-0830Z.mp3

[LaminerFlow]

The possible causal factors are enormous. Was it the aircraft or the crew? History has taught us that it could be either.
From the very little evidence available it is unfair to cast aspersions about who may be responsible but it is going to be discussed anyway so is best to be non judgmental.
From where the impact occurred, if a go around was initiated at a low altitude my guess would be a fairly rapid loss of performance. If the aircraft is innocent then it is probably environmental or crew. The weather does not look that bad.
The most likely way to cause a large performance loss that the pilot flying and the aircraft can not recover from is to retract the flaps more than the procedures call for.
This has caused accidents in the past and has been the focus of much training world wide including in EK.
It still happens today during takeoff and go around through fatigue and or complacency. Aircraft performance on a good day is enough to cope with these slip ups, hot or high altitude or mild wind shear combined with retracting too much flap to early would cause an aircraft to hit the ground in the same region as EK521. The crew most likely would not even know they did it.
In a complacent state crew operate on the most likely automatic response expected without conscious thought.
After the landing configuration is attained the PM is programmed by routine that the next time the flags need to be moved is during the complete retraction after landing. In a fatigued or complacent state the call for flaps during a go around could initiate a greater flap retraction than desired.

[Aerostar6]

Evacuation video.
It has been said before, but under stress humans revert to a known pattern.
These guys were getting off an aircraft - which means you open the locker, get your bag and head for the exit, which is what they were doing.
The lack of smoke/fire (initially) meant that there was no real impetus to get off.
Even the landing itself may not have seemed unusual to infrequent flyers.
I flew with the rear cabin crew member on the BA Beijing 777 which pancaked at LHR.
Even she, as a seasoned cabin crew member was flabbergasted to see the aircraft on its belly having evaded, having experienced more violent "normal" landings before.
Probably compounded by mostly none English speaking Indian nationals, which meant that any cabin crew exhortations were not understood.
Don't blame people for being human.

[vlkyplky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YxCyeaOVOU

Video from INSIDE the plane during evac....

Thank you for this. Could be used for CC training purposes

[richardnunney]

Question about the personnel chosen to do the evacuation testing for certification.

Is it usually just the one nationality chosen to do the testing, or is it a mixture of nationalities that partake in testing? Of these people would these be first time evacuees or would each manufacturer call on people that have previously tested?

Furthermore, is there any information available on successful evacuations that suggest that one nationality (dare I say from the more developed world) would be more likely to successfully evacuate rather than another?

I remember reading about the Ethiopian crash in the Comoros Islands that attributed a lot of deaths by drowning as people inflated lifejackets prior to exiting the aircraft and could have survived.

[greg99]

BBC link video shows an explosion and 'part of a wing' in the air.


It looks like an evac slide.

[lomapaseo]

I hope nobody was next to or on that forward RH slide when it let go in the video. I've never heard of one tumbling like that

[EEngr]

Question about the personnel chosen to do the evacuation testing for certification.

Is it usually just the one nationality chosen to do the testing, or is it a mixture of nationalities that partake in testing?

Usually conducted by the manufacturer at their facility with their volunteer employees. So, whoever is available on staff. Probably a good mix of H-1B staff these days.

Of these people would these be first time evacuees or would each manufacturer call on people that have previously tested?

When I worked for Boeing and they sought volunteers, they preferred ones who had not been through a previous test.

Anecdote: They came around and asked me once. But I made a comment about their procedure for handling the overwing (plug type) exit doors. They requested that the person sitting at the door carefully open it and carefully place it on the adjacent seat (because this was a plane that they were going to sell). I remarked that people tripping over the door as they exited would distort the actual evacuation time. And if I were sitting there in real life, I'd just take the door, turn it sideways and frisbee-toss it out the opening.

They excused me from the test.

[infrequentflyer789]

There is a simple solution however, don't let pax take any luggage into the cabin in the first place.

Deceptively simple.

For one, you have to sort out liability for checked valuables between check-in and return-to-pax - because currently neither airline nor handling agents nor pax's insurers will accept it. Or you ask pax to accept liability for your own systems being so prone to loss/theft that the risk is uninsurable...

For two, you need to work out what to do about pax with life-essential medication and/or medical equipment. Currently such pax are advised (by various official sources) that this stuff _must_ be in cabin baggage (with backups in checked baggage). I know this because, as of 18months ago, I am such a pax, and if/when I do fly again I will have to consider how to handle this.

There's a bunch of other issues that I can think of without even trying, but the big one from an economics point of view is that you have to remove all non-food/drink air-side shops (which is actually fine by me, but you'll need to work out which airports/airlines will still be economic).

[Sailvi767]

Not rightly sure I see that in excess of 10 knot tailwind. :confused:

The mishap occurred at about 0845Z and they 'landed' on runway 12L.

Here's the reported hourly weather observations from an earlier post on this thread:



Are you looking at the TEMPO perhaps?

Some airlines buy data from the manufacturer for 15 knot tailwinds and also higher OAT's, not sure if it is available for the Triple.

If you demanded a landing into the traffic flow at ATL or JFK you'd probably hear from the chief pilot's office, right?

I have on several occasions, never heard a word about it. We are told repeatedly to make the tough call and the CP's office will back you up. That has always held true at my airline.

[phil gollin]

I hate getting involved in such discussions, however, the sort of people LIKELY to be in tourist on a flight like this are probably very poor and going to the Middle East to work at rates that will seem low to us and very good to them. They will be going with items that to them have great money or sentimental value - these are things that "should" be considered.

They probably don't have the attitude that what is in their bags is disposable.

Look above at the pilot (???) who had a list of 4 or so things he would want to take with him. He has the luxury of thinking deeply about these things and the fact that he has employers, banks and friends who have the resources to easily help him out.

[3Greens]

Sure you could demand a landing against the flow. but my guess is you'd be in the Hold For quite some time before they found an openin for you. These conditions are standard for DXB with it being a coastal airport in extreme temps. There's often a different wind at the touchdown point to the midpoint; so what do you do? There was nothing here today that was even mildly abnormal for Dubai. I suspect there will be something else that comes out of it eventually. The 10kt tail at touchdown will be negligible for EMirates pilots.

[mickjoebill]

Scroll through the evac footage frame by frame, it has a wealth of informative still frames

Light Mist or smoke in central section of cabin?

A flood of light forward indicates perhaps doors already open before video starts..

Passengers queuing in isle with bags before video starts.

O2 panels hanging down, perhaps one or two passengers wondering if they are supposed to put mask on?

PA announcement "cabin crew, captain has ordered (inaudible) evacuation)"

Left side door behind wing is open and slide fully Inflated but comprehensively snagged and unusable.

Passengers blocking isles as they retrieve luggage, while children behind them struggle to get by!

Possible a contributing factor to speed of egress was shallower angle of slide due to lower height from ground, so there is congestion on the slide, passengers stationary, takes 20-30 seconds having cleared door to clear the slide. 15 or so people on the slide at one time, some climbing over bags.

Fire Command and control vehicle (or ambulance?) at left rear of plane.

No fire trucks visible to left side of fuselage.

Cabin attendant runs down asle from Center of cabin.

Cabin attendant at door screaming leave bags behind.

No PA announcement to leave bags behind was recorded.


In my view
evacuation of passenger (to door) with camera from impact was longer than 90 seconds.
Evacuation from the time passengers started to stand up also probably longer than 90 seconds.
Evacuation from impact to bottom of slide was over 2 minutes.

Bit late at the door to tell passengers to leave bags, better at that point they should hang onto them or they could drop them near door and cause a blockage?

Many Airlines make it expensive for a family to sit together by charging for the privelage of allocated seats. I've always felt this is unconscionable policy, I'll now add that kids seperated from parents in an evac is as potent a threat to speedy egress as passengers seperated from hand luggage.

It should be a policy that parents not be penalised for wishing to look after their children.
To the fit looking business guys blocking the isle, forget your bloody laptop, help the nearest parent!

[misd-agin]

Julio747 - "Are you suggesting he got a GA command half way through a bounce???? Nonsense...."

It's not nonsense. Our manuals talk about the options after a bounced landing. One is a G/A.

[atakacs]

I muss say that I am a surprised by what seems a relatively minor fire at evac time escalate into a complete hull burnout, including apparently one fire firefighter being killed.

No idea what happened here (was that the slide exploding ? Cargo ?) but clearly they simply did not manage to put the fire out, despite (most likely) having ample equipment. Not criticizing in any shape of form, but there will be most likely interesting conclusions from the fire fighting aspects of this accident.

[Julio747]

Julio747 - "Are you suggesting he got a GA command half way through a bounce???? Nonsense...."

It's not nonsense. Our manuals talk about the options after a bounced landing. One is a G/A.

It could be what happened. But I doubt it.....

[blimey]

For all you advocating sitting tight in the case of an uncontained fire with SQ, looking at the burnt out fuselage, any change of mind?

Well done to the EK crew and RFF.

[DXBWannabe]

Clearly the CC did a fantastic job evacuating everyone unscathed.

What is fascinating to see though is the video from inside the plane during the EVAC and just seeing the sheer state of confusion and panic within the plane as some are trying to get out, others are putting on masks, and finally people are blocking the aisles trying to get their precious luggage out of the racks.

Maybe instead of showing 4 different videos before T/O with info everyone already knows, the airlines should drill into people not to take their luggage with them during an EVAC.

[speedyb]

I can hardly wait until the "im so tired and overworked" brigade chime in to somehow attribute this to crew fatigue.

[InSeat19c]

Lots of anger it seems for the people that were reaching for their personal possessions.

A planeload of mainly non-English speaking people, many of whom might be economic migrants with little to their name, may not see things in quite the logical way that some others might.

[DXBWannabe]

I can hardly wait until the "im so tired and overworked" brigade chime in to somehow attribute this to crew fatigue.

It's already been done, and quite frankly I don't see how it is not a valid contributing factor. I can absolutely see a tired pilot getting their procedures mixed up and calling for a gear retract during G/A even when they shouldn't for the windshear. Fairly simple mistake to make if you're drowsy.

[helen-damnation]

Atakacs
I muss say that I am a surprised by what seems a relatively minor fire at evac time escalate into a complete hull burnout, including apparently one fire firefighter being killed.

No idea what happened here (was that the slide exploding ? Cargo ?) but clearly they simply did not manage to put the fire out, despite (most likely) having ample equipment. Not criticizing in any shape of form, but there will be most likely interesting conclusions from the fire fighting aspects of this accident.

The video filmed the evacuation from the left hand side, the engine is still attached. Did you bother to watch the external videos showing the right hand side, the major fire and subsequent explosion?

[Wirbelsturm]

I'm afraid I'm in agreement with InSeat19c.

Whilst we all believe we will behave in a certain manner in an extreme situation we can never be sure what we will do when faced with it for real.

I agree that reaching for your overhead belonging is, in my opinion, foolish you have to consider that perhaps these people might well be willing to risk their life and others for what's in the bag.

If you've ever seen the queues for the Indian Bullets in the UAE you would understand.

What I say from the front is irrelevant, when the sh*t hits the fan any plan goes out the window with it in the cabin! The cabin crew do an excellent job attempting to guide the herd out of the doors. They are the real heroes here.

[Cows getting bigger]

It is easy to criticise the cabin baggage brigade, slides blowing in the wind, engines exploding and the causes of the accident. Surely the most important lesson is that everyone on board survived. this must be due to the advances in safety procedures, equipment, aircraft design protocols etc over the past decades. The industry has moved forward.

[Sunfish]

the explosion was probably a wheel assembly. While they do have fusible plugs, they may not necessarily melt in time. Can't think of many other pressure vessels large enough to do much. The wing skin over the gear area may be what was seen flying.

Fuel tanks don't explode.

[DingerX]

93 seconds from when that recording starts to when the camera hits daylight. Evacuation couldn't have started much before then.
As for the fire, even at the end of the trip, there's a lot of fuel and very little metal. Not even the 777 is designed to protect its contents from a fire of any significant duration or intensity.
With regards to overhead bins, you just can't win. Sure, you can make an announcement on the P/A, but even in the best of circumstances -- native speaker to native listener, perfect sound reproduction with normal background noise, no 400-Hz buzz -- the message is not always resolvable. The more complicated, the harder it gets. Really, if you can get "Evacuate" across, you can't hope for more. Now, add in all the things that go wrong with an airline P/A, and it's foolish to even try.
As for the folks in overhead bins -- there's probably a knock-on effect too: the aisle is blocked, as the person ahead is fishing in the bin. Might as well grab the bag, right?

What happened? Dunno. Flightradar24 has put online their ADS-B data in a CSV format, and they seem to be suggesting that it involves hitting a low altitude (GPS or unadjusted pressure?) of 475 ft, then going up to 600 before settling in at 525/50 (granularity seems to be 25 feet) after 16 seconds.
They could have balked hard. Not AC 621-hard, but hard enough to settle back in. We'll find out.

[ULMFlyer]

Holy cow, that evacuation video gave me the creeps. I guess announcements at the beginning of flights regarding the issue of carry-on during an evacuation must become a lot more forceful.

IMHO, if what we see was the fuel in the right wing exploding, it will become a lot more difficult to justify SQ's (lack of) response with the whole wing on fire, irrespective of the different circumstances.

[FE Hoppy]

@Sunfish
Why are fuel tank inerting systems now mandated if tanks don't explode?
Ive been to funerals due to a fuel tank exploding so don't talk out of your arse.

[Gegenbeispiel]

EEngr: The evac. video is over 180 sec. long, thus the 45 sec. media report is in error. During normal disembark, at most half the doors are in use, often fewer, and people aren't in much of a hurry - they know they'll just have to to queue at immigration.

[Airbuspilot72]

Kudos to the team on board for saving lives. EK is very lucky that they walk away with just written off AC. God bless the soul of the fire fighter.
I some where blame the work culture in EK which instils fear among pilots of getting warning letter for any thing and every thing.
The management should wake up.

[Airmotive]

I wonder how many people on this plane even understood English?
Yes, it's the international language of aviation, and a widely taught second language in India and UAE, but I didn't hear any of the passengers using the English language. Clearly, NOBODY understood the (English only) commands to leave everything.

I'd say we have a 'teaching moment' here for the aviation industry.

[underfire]

EQL, fullwings,

There is no system to measure windshear, it is all from pilot interaction with ATC, so when it is reported, the WS tag goes on until a pilot tells ATC there wasnt any.

With DXB, it has been shown to have headwinds at both ends. There are turns of 180 degrees of winds at altitude.

[AmarokGTI]

Surprised at people defending those who grabbed their bags.
Is it really "instinct?"
The crew get off last. Any delay you cause is reducing the chance of them getting out safely. The same people who have been making your flight comfy and running around getting you drinks and extra snacks. The same people who are now trying to keep you alive by getting you off quickly. But it's ok to delay their safe egress because of "instinct"? Nonsense.
It's also instinct to swim when you're in water, but we all want lifejackets.

[mickjoebill]

Could those in the know comment on;
No PA announcement for passengers to remain seated.
No instructions were given over PA to passengers for the duration of the video.
If the PA order to evacuate was given before video rolled then the evac was well beyond 90 seconds.
If no evac order given prior to video rolling why aren't CC telling everyone to remain seated?
We're the CC able to seen the engine sitting on top of the wing before opening right side middle cabin doors?

Did they only open right side doors when they realised that two of the left had side doors were not operative?


Mickjoebill

[Whiskey Zulu]

Regardless of what, why, who caused the Emirates 777 crash today, MASSIVE respect to the cabin crew that evacuated that aircraft without any loss of life. ‪#‎trainingmatters‬

[Sunfish]

FE Hoppy:

@Sunfish
Why are fuel tank inerting systems now mandated if tanks don't explode?
Ive been to funerals due to a fuel tank exploding so don't talk out of your arse.

Have it your own way and join the multitude of uninformed media and armchair experts who talk about exploding jet fuel every time there is a crash and fire. Exploding wheels are a recognized safety hazard in an aircraft fire and you have Six(?) of them sitting in a pool of burning jet fuel under the right wing. The wheel rims contain fusible plugs to prevent brake fires causing a tyre explosion but maybe these didn't work as advertised this time.

[MrSnuggles]

mickjoebill

Asiana 214 had some issues with slides, check that report for details, can't remember off the top of my head.

[MrSnuggles]

Sunfish

TWA800. Concorde

[quadradar]

GREAT job by the Cabin Crew in the very worst of circumstances - GREAT respect for the fire crews who risk their lives in these situations (indeed one brave lad lost his life) - and good job ATC for picking a gear issue on final and sorting out the mess afterwards - Tower staff have so many things to monitor in the Cab it's GREAT to hear they still look out the windows and look out for those Pilots :)

[champair79]

I know it might be an unpopular opinion in here but for once I'd like to give some pats on the back to the costa drinkers at EK HQ. The EK social media team and Network ops teams have done a great job in getting information out both about the accident as well as operational disruption information.

Champ

[exekcabincrew]

Don't you ladies and gents think that in case there is time to prepare the cabin for the emergency landing while the AC is still airborne, the pax should be given 5 min or so to collect their passports and say, one more item from their bags? So small items that they always try to save by taking the entire bag during the evac.

This could help to save precious time during the evac! You can clearly see that the evac could have been even faster if those mor*ns didn't waste time taking their luggage!

Plus imagine the crew is there with the plane on fire, risking his\her life for those extra 60 secs, so the pax can take their stupid bag?.. The risk is worth for someone's life, not someone's greed of not being able to let go luggage worth 70$..

[logansi]

That video of the evacuation should become part of cabin crew training and viewed by all commercial pilots, it shows how people really react, not the orderly evacuation we see a training.

Amazing job by the flight attendants, they are often some of the nicest attendants and appear also to be great on the safety side of things.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Sunfish
I am not going to be drawn into a protracted physics lesson, but will just say that at no point did FE Hoppy mention FUEL exploding. Believe me he is well qualified to speak and is not one of the uninformed masses to which you allude. I suggest you read and digest the following, paying particular attention to the word 'ullage' and references to fuel tank inerting. I believe these are the funerals he refers to. RIP Lads and to the firefighter who lost his life earlier today.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20121026065214/www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/20F22B57-C1BA-4715-AC38-F2E1604A78CF/0/boi_raf_hercules.pdf

[mickjoebill]

MASSIVE respect to the cabin crew that evacuated that aircraft without any loss of life. ‪#‎trainingmatters‬
I have "massive" respect for Ppruners who have a complete understanding of what went on inside the cabin and what part CC played, especially since the Twitter video indicates evacuation may have taken longer than 90 seconds.

Unless we constructively criticise there will be no pressure to reevaluate procedures.
With sincere respect to cabin crew on this flight.



Mickjoebill

[Wiley]

I haven't trolled through all the comments, so I'm probably repeating what's already been said. Firstly, as an ex-EK 777 driver, may I offer an enormous 'well done' to the cabin crew. Convincing pax, (is it politically incorrect to say 'particularly from that part of the world'?) to leave their hand baggage behind is impossible. Ethiopian Airlines had an evacuation in Dubai some years ago and most of the pax were Nigerians on their way to Dubai to do major shopping/business. There was NO way they were going to leave their hand baggage behind, and the crew wisely recognised this and got everyone off, with their bags, far faster than they would have if they'd tried to enforce the no bags rule.

I'd be very surprised if the final report on this incident doesn't come to a similar conclusion. If there were only four injured in the evacuation, I'd have to say I'm amazed. Given the wide age and state of health range usually found on any EK flight, (on average, every EK flight in my day was met by 10 to 20 wheelchairs, but maybe we should not go there right now as to why that was so), I would have half expected one or more deaths due to heart attacks and the like in the most benign of evacuations, which this was was definitely not.

[Globally]

"ABC World News Tonight," here in the States, said a few minutes ago the crew forgot to lower the landing gear, tower noticed the improper configuration, told the crew to go around, but evidently too late.

[nicolai]

With an air temperature (49C) well above the minimum flashpoint of JET-A1 (38C) and the ground surface (concrete or asphalt) likely to be even hotter, any fuel spill might well generate plenty of immediately ignitable vapour. Then any ignition source would cause a rapidly growing fire and even fuel/air explosions, causing the fire seen in the video sources mentioned so far.

Can any specialists comment on whether very hot airports have an increased fire risk of a fuel leak (compared to, for example, the BA38 crash where there was no fire, or the Asiana crash at SFO where fire seemed to take hold more slowly)?

[tdracer]

"ABC World News Tonight," here in the States, said a few minutes ago the crew forgot to lower the landing gear, tower noticed the improper configuration, told the crew to go around, but evidently too late.
Never say never, but rather unlikely - if you get below 250 ft. with the gear up you get a rather loud EICAS CONFIG warning.

[katya2607]

It would be good if at some time, some of you could go over to the cabin crew forum and post a little thank you for the professionalism of the girls and boys shown today during the evac. The pax were something to be desired, and I have had plenty of experience with them over the years.

Although those involved probably will not be monitoring the string, too traumatised going through the what if/if only/perhaps/mumkin/yumkin and Company policy. There are those close to them who will. Just to see/understand what their peers think of them during this traumatic time.

Thank-you

[broadreach]

Re the clip taken inside during evacuation. At one point didn't I see a male cabin crew member racing down the aisle shouting "Leave everything, jump on slide' repeatedly? By that time what could be seen of the inside was fairly empty. It was a short message and very much to the point, and I can easily imagine it was being shouted well before we heard it on te clip.

[lomapaseo]

If we had fuel tanks exploding in ground fires there would be signs of over-pressure and ruptures. Ullage ignition is more likely associated with higher energy sparks or time enough for the heat to boil the fuel.

Still to be seen is whether the over-wing departing engine ruptured a fuel tank before the later explosion.

In one of the videos looking head-on at the aircraft there is plenty of dust/smoke but little visible fire and yet the motion of that slide much later is quite violent.

As far as the cabin is concerned, there is little smoke and fire visible inside when the video was taken. However once the RH doors were left open and the external fire took hold it seems to have entered the cabin and flowed along the ceiling.

Good that the passengers got out quickly, but what doors you open can make a difference in how much time you have vs the location of external fires.

Again any comparisons with the SIA event and this one will still need to wait on many details only available in a final report.

As always your mileage may vary so as a passenger you need to listen for trained crew instructions and not believe everything you read on the internet.

[mickjoebill]

In respect to fire service, could someone explain the significance of the different liveried fire trucks?
A video appears to show passengers 400 meters from the plane and passing beside a plane parked near hangers, but yet they are passed by a convoy of yellow liveried fire appliances racing toward the plane.
This would be over 6 minutes after the 777 came to a full stop.
Also in this video there is a red fire truck stopped on the apron facing away from from the plane and near the walking passengers, perhaps returning for more water?

How far away is the most distant fire station from the incident?
https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/760841108410605568

The onboard video taken by a passenger shows a brief glimpse of two red liveried fire trucks positioned beside the plane.

Presumably one station has red trucks and another has yellow?

Sad to hear that a firefighter lost his life in the callout.
Mickjoebill

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Microburst possibly having put the gear up for a go around ?

Windshear is lethal. Diverted recently without making an approach having heard the preceding 6 aircraft had all gone round due to windshear. Didn't stop one smart arse passenger getting off in his final destination, only an hour an and a half late telling me I should have flown through it through the open flight deck door 🙄

[parabellum]

I would like to see a locking system for the overhead bins. They auto lock at, say, application of TO power and can only be unlocked manually, after, say seat belt sign goes off. Re-lock when seat belt sign is activated to On, (turbulence or landing) and once again, have to be manually unlocked after both engines shut down. The manual over ride, CC or flight deck, should always be available in the event of a technical failure.