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Torreone01
28th Jul 2016, 14:11
Hello folks,
I have been told that in UK, when you are flying about 3000ft you can log that time as a IFR flight time.
I meant typical flight visual navigation from one aerodrome to another one when you are flying cruise flight about 3000ft, you can log that part of the fly like IFR. it is right?

Regards,

Mustapha Cuppa
28th Jul 2016, 15:32
Flights operated in accordance with instrument flight rules can clearly be logged as IFR flight.


Flight by sole reference to instruments is another matter.

BEagle
28th Jul 2016, 18:44
Pilots who hold a Part-FCL pilot licence may only fly under IFR in accordance with FCL.600:

FCL.600 IR ó General
Except as provided in FCL.825, operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category
of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.

FCL.825 refers to the EIR.

So no. Under Part-FCL, a 'typical flight visual navigation from one aerodrome to another one when you are flying cruise flight about 3000ft' may NOT be logged as IFR unless the pilot is operating in accordance with FCL.600 or FCL.825 in accordance with IFR.

Happy Wanderer
28th Jul 2016, 22:28
Hmmm, I for one would appreciate some clarity on this point. I know of a few fellow FIs, themselves holding IRs, who have on the face of it successfully circumvented FCL.915.IRI (which requires applicants for an IRI certificate to have completed a minimum of 800 hours of flight time under IFR of which at least 400 hours shall be in aeroplanes) by simply logging VFR instructional time as IFR. Quite how this was achieved by legitimate means I'm not sure, but I'm assured it was. I very much suspect this is what the OP is referring to. When I enquired how much of the claimed IFR time was gained in cloud (i.e. in IMC), it tended to all go very quiet. Clarity please....

HW

Duchess_Driver
28th Jul 2016, 23:08
For clarity, for the holder of an FI certificate the entry requirements to the IRI 'course' are reduced to 200 hours time under IFR. If you are a line pilot with no FI cert then it's the 800hrs. However, that's not the point here...

As Beagle states, to log IFR then you must be the holder of an Instrument Rating or IR(R) and following IF rules... 1,000ft above blah blah blah. It's irrelevant what conditions your in as IFR can and does take place in gin clear VMC. IFR outside CAS and without a minimum traffic service...... not for me, thanks.

I suspect there are instances of 'creative accounting' in some of the claims arriving at the Authority.....hence the quiet moments. Just sayin'.

Genghis the Engineer
29th Jul 2016, 09:21
Personally, I log IFR when, err, I'm flying IFR in an aircraft legally authorised to do so.

Given the complications of modern licencing, I modified my logbook several years ago to have a separate column for "by sole reference to instruments"; unsurprisingly it's a smaller total.

If I'm not following Instrument Flight Rules, I don't log IFR. If I'm in visibility above VFR minima, I don't log "sole reference to instruments". If I'm IMC, I'm also IFR. If the aircraft is on PtF and thus the paperwork says "IFR proibited" I don't log IFR. When I wasn't qualified to fly IFR, I didn't log IFR.

I do deliberately set up quite a few, but not all, of my longer trips so that I do fly IFR and build up a few IFR hours - but that so far as I can see is perfectly reasonable.

Is it all that difficult?

G

Whopity
30th Jul 2016, 08:45
There is no requirement for holders of UK issued licences to log IFR time.
Art 79:a flight crew licence issued by the CAA under Part-FCL must keep a personal flying log in which the following information must be recorded:

(d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; andThe requirement specifies Conditions, not Rules.

So long as we have regulations that include unaccountable requirements, we will see all manner of half cock ways of trying to achieve them!

A flight is either IFR or VFR it can't be both, but it can be in VMC in all cases.

Genghis the Engineer
30th Jul 2016, 09:09
No absolute requirement to log it, but given you might need to declate your hours IFR at some point to become an IRI , sensible.

G

maximus610
31st Jul 2016, 13:17
Just not to start a new thread:

I've heard that some FI's are logging also student's IFR time during PPL/CPL

training in order to get their 200 IFR hours to start to instruct IR faster.

Is this a common practice or just another grey area?

Edgington
31st Jul 2016, 14:52
A flight is either IFR or VFR it can't be both, but it can be in VMC in all cases.

I often leave vfr from my base then pick up ifr. So yes you can do vfr and ifr in 1 flight.

NDB32
31st Jul 2016, 22:17
Just not to start a new thread:

I've heard that some FI's are logging also student's IFR time during PPL/CPL

training in order to get their 200 IFR hours to start to instruct IR faster.

Is this a common practice or just another grey area?




I have heard about that too, the instructor told me he wrote the instruction time in the aeroplane log book as PIC and in his own log book as PIC and IFR, not as an instructor.

Level Attitude
1st Aug 2016, 00:16
simply logging VFR instructional time as IFRIf a flight was VFR then no IFR time can be logged.

I've heard that some FI's are logging also student's IFR time during PPL/CPLIf a student had IFR time then, as they were on the same flight, the instructor must also have had IFR time !

PPL and CPL are VFR Licences and require no IFR instruction.
(Any IF elements easily being conducted in VMC)

The problem is in the wording of Part-FCL that only requires Instructional Privileges if the flight is for a Licensing action (Licence/Rating Issue/Renewal/Revalidation) - not for teaching a subject.

I have heard about that too, the instructor told me he wrote the instruction time in the aeroplane log book as PIC and in his own log book as PIC and IFR, not as an instructor.An Instructor is PIC (otherwise they are just a passenger).

If a PPL or CPL student is on board then, I would suggest, no IFR flight can be logged as the Instructional Privilege being used on that flight does not entitle IFR Instruction.

It may be that some Licence instructional flights do have a small amount of IFR flight time in them (using the PIC's qualification) eg to get through some bad weather or above a cloud layer. But, as this does not form part of the instruction that the student is receiving (and paying for) I would expect it to kept quiet, and not be logged as such.

Any Logging must be the same in both the Instructor's and Student's Log Books, and must match the Student's Training Record.

ChickenHouse
1st Aug 2016, 07:41
Isn't the confusing just coming from self-declared flight rules when flying without FPL?

I once learned that flight rules have to be declared before takeoff and are either VFR (V) or IFR (I, Y, Z). There is no such flight as partVFR-partIFR.

If instruction takes place, FI is PIC and logging IFR seems perfectly fine. Yes, I heard the trickypicky rumor that FI log more student flights as IFR then they are conducted, but as long as we allow IFR@G w/o FPL I see no other way as pledge to intelligence.

Genghis the Engineer
1st Aug 2016, 08:27
I once learned that flight rules have to be declared before takeoff and are either VFR (V) or IFR (I, Y, Z). There is no such flight as partVFR-partIFR

Who taught this nonsense?

G

ChickenHouse
1st Aug 2016, 09:05
Who taught this nonsense?
My flight school and my fellow FI on the continent when I was doing education according to JAR.FCL. As a strict rule we were taught a flight conducted does have only one filing and it has to be determined in advance on the ground, same as who is PIC, as part of a thorough flight preparation. I have to admit, I did not check the EASA changes and with common AFIL now there may be some change in it.

Parson
1st Aug 2016, 09:51
ChickenHouse,

Take a typical IR training/test route. Filed as an IFR flight but near the end it is normal to call 'Cancel IFR' when going around from the final missed approach into the visual circuit. Therefore you have flown under both IFR and VFR rules in the same flight.

Genghis the Engineer
1st Aug 2016, 09:55
School and country name please Chickenhouse ?

G

Level Attitude
1st Aug 2016, 11:08
it is normal to call 'Cancel IFR' when going around from the final missed approach into the visual circuitI agree that is possible, but I would dispute it is normal - I have never done it. Why not just fly the visual circuit under IFR (just like we used to have to do at Night in the UK)?

Even a combined MEP/IR-ME flight test could, I would suggest, be completed completely IFR if so wished.

Not possible for a combined SEP/IR-SE flight test due to the Engine Failure test element not allowing maintenance of 1.000' above highest object, etc.

Parson
1st Aug 2016, 11:59
Well it was standard procedure at the school where I trained. Agree that others may have different views. Point I was making was that you can fly to both IFR and VFR on the same flight.

Re night flying, is that not SVFR?

cessnapete
1st Aug 2016, 16:22
It certainly is possible to fly VfR and IFR on the same flight.
A regular trip is departing a private strip SE England VFR, and join Airways IFR at Goodwood. Then have to cancel IFR near Frankfurt for a VFR arrival at another small strip.

BEagle
1st Aug 2016, 19:18
It is also mandatory procedure for the EIR - IFR may only be flown from a declared transition point after departure and terminated at another declared transition point at destination. The rest of the flight must be under VFR.

pipertommy
4th May 2018, 12:10
My logbook only has an instruments column, which I assume is solely IMC time as opposed to operating under IFR.
How can I evidence IFR time towards removal of instrument instruction??
Confused sorry!!

Whopity
4th May 2018, 12:44
You can use the column for anything you like or even add a column if you wish. Teaching IMC is quite a good way to get IFR time or fly IFR and log it as such.

pipertommy
4th May 2018, 14:00
Thanks for the reply. I would like to work eventually teach towards the IR(r) / imc rating. I hold the IR(r) with a lapsed IR. I currently instruct to ppl level, I guess I can operate a portion of the flight as IFR obviously in VMC. Just the recording of IFR is confusing. Lol
Has anyone else dealt with this situation successfully?
Thank you.

Whopity
4th May 2018, 15:35
No requirement under Art 228 to record IFR so as long as what you claim looks reasonable nobody can realy dispute it. Don't try and claim VFR instruction time as IFR as it clearly can't be.

Duchess_Driver
4th May 2018, 19:13
Just the recording of IFR is confusing.

Not really...

Am I on an IFR flight plan
Am I Instrument rated (IR(R) is OK)
Am I flying 1000’ above.....

All yes, then IFR it goes - regardless of whether you can see the ground or not. If I can’t see the ground, that bit can go “sole reference” in the IMC column. And for that, then the aircraft should be suitably equipped for the airspace it’s in.

Genghis the Engineer
5th May 2018, 09:27
Add in "is the aeroplane permitted to fly IFR", but I agree - I really don't find it at all difficult.

G

pipertommy
5th May 2018, 15:43
OK, not difficult, but I was after clarification of how others physically record the time. Thanks

pipertommy
5th May 2018, 16:00
My aim is to teach for IR (r) only, the information below implies I would only need 10 hours sole reference to instrument as time??


Pre-Course RequirementsYou must hold the licence, rating and qualification for which instruction is being given and be entitled to act as pilot in command during the training.Flight instructors (A)The privileges of the holder of a FI(A) rating are:

To conduct flight instruction for the issue of an IR(A), or an IR (Restricted) Rating provided that the instructor :

1) Holds a valid IR(A) and has at least 200 hours flight in accordance with instrument flight rules, of which up to 50 may be instrument ground time in a flight simulatot or FNPT II.

2) Completed at an ATO an approved course comprising at least 5 hours of flight instruction in an aeroplane, flight simulator or FNPT II and 10 hours of ground instruction (see EASA Part -FCL 930. IRI and has passed the Assessment of Competence.

Or

To conduct flight instruction for the issue of an IR(R) provided that the instructor:

Holds a valid IR(R) and has:

3) An unrestricted FI rating and completed at least 10 hours flight time by sole reference to instruments in an aeroplane, Full Flight Simulator, Flight Training Device(FTD) 2/3 or Flight Navigation Procedure Trainer(FNPT)II.

4) Completed a course as describesd in sub-paragraph2) above and passed the Assessment of Competence.

Whopity
5th May 2018, 18:13
Thats correct and you need the 10 hours for both the FI rating and a CPL so you should have all you need.

pipertommy
5th May 2018, 18:36
Thanks for the replies.

S-Works
6th May 2018, 09:00
I have heard about that too, the instructor told me he wrote the instruction time in the aeroplane log book as PIC and in his own log book as PIC and IFR, not as an instructor.

He would be out the door faster than his feet could carry him if he tried it in my school. When we get an ATO audit one of the things the CAA do is go through the student, Inatructor and tech legs and compare them to the training log. wobetide any inaccuracies........

S-Works
6th May 2018, 19:48
School and country name please Chickenhouse ?

G

Spain, itís how we do it all the time.