Agusta and Brexit

[dead_pan]

I've been trying to get some national press coverage of this, following John Ponsonby's less-than-reassuring comments to a local journo at the recent media event/roll-out.

Could anyone with an 'in' with anyone in the company who may want to speak about this (top team, unions etc) please PM me. Courtney? BEagle?

I did collar Lord Ashdown at an event on Monday and he confirmed that it likely be curtains if the ref goes the wrong way, and that the decision would be very quickly made.

This is a potential bomb-shell.

DP

[dead_pan]

Forgot to add: I did confront several Leave campaigners with this news at the weekend. The best I got was a look of "Oh sh**". The worst: "Don't care". GHT

[Tourist]

Explain?.........................

[Not_a_boffin]

I think he's trying to link Brexit with closure of the Leonardo plant at Yeovil. Although were I to look at the forward order book for that company now - irrespective of the referendum - I'd suggest that was inevitable anyway.

[BEagle]

I assume that dead_pan is referring to this article:

Leonardo-Finmeccanica to 'assess operations' in Yeovil in event of Brexit | Somerset Live (http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/Leonardo-Finmeccanica-assess-operations-Yeovil/story-29341749-detail/story.html)

Perhaps you should ask the Western Gazette's reporter Stephen D'Albiac to forward his copy to the national press? Contact page is at Somerset Live | Contact Us (http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/contact.html) .

Similar warnings have been made concerning the UK's car industry, particularly for BMW-Mini's Oxford site:
Brexit would create "uncertainties" for car manufacturing in UK, BMW boss warns (From Oxford Mail) (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14318018.Brexit_would_create_uncertainties_for_car_manufactu ring_in_UK__BMW_boss_warns/)

But the nation will decide, I guess....:uhoh:

[NutLoose]

I should imagine it would mean "Westlands" position would be tenuous.

As for the car industry I cannot forsee no deal being done, the likes of VW, BMW and Mercedes groups are hardly likely to lose one of their biggest markets and one would assume they would exert pressure on Merkle etc that would be huge.
Remember those groups include the likes of Audi, Seat, Skoda, etc, all major players in the UK markets. It could potentially cripple their output and the German economy to loose such a major market.... It will never be allowed to happen, no matter what scare tactics are used. The other thing about Mini and one of its main selling points, just as with RR is they are seen across the world as a quintessential British made product, even though it no longer is.
Rather like Bernard Matthews Norfolk turkeys, they can call them that because the eggs are laid in Norfolk, the fact they are then shipped and raised in Romania has nothing to do with it., the same goes for a RR, the engine etc comes from Germany or was at least designed there I believe.


.

[Arclite01]

Wonder how many houses they'll fit on that airfield................

Arc

[t43562]

As for the car industry I cannot forsee no deal being done, the likes of VW, BMW and Mercedes groups are hardly likely to lose one of their biggest markets and one would assume they would exert pressure on Merkle etc that would be huge.What has manufacturing got to do with markets? I'm sure they'll continue selling here but what has that got to do with where they are made? (or what duties are paid)

[Tourist]

Considering how Westlands have treated the RN over the years, I couldn't give a monkeys either way.

World class design team.
Utter tw@ts in their customer screwing over team.

[BEagle]

As for the car industry I cannot forsee no deal being done, the likes of VW, BMW and Mercedes groups are hardly likely to lose one of their biggest markets and one would assume they would exert pressure on Merkle etc that would be huge.

But there is obviously no guarantee that this would or would not happen, if the UK's position in Europe changed....

Whereas if the UK's position doesn't change, clearly no such guesswork is needed...:hmm:

Vote with care....:uhoh:

[dead_pan]

t43562/BEagle

I've been tirelessly making that point to anyone who'll listen (including Julia Hartley-Brewer on TalkRadio). They seem either to wilfully miss the point, or gloss it over with the usual "don't worry it'll all be fine" BS (JH-B being a case in point),

[dead_pan]

Luckily some MPs I've collared got the point and are going to incorporate it in their armoury...

[Tourist]

Whilst the loss of a strategic industry is obviously not ideal, in terms of short term capability and price it might be nice to just buy off the shelf toys next time without worrying about saving British jobs.

[BEagle]

dead_pan', love him or loathe him, Jeremy Clarkson made a fair point about EU membership in the Sunday Times: 'Isn't it better to stay in and try to make the damn thing work properly?'

Obviously that could only be achieved if the UK remained a part of the EU.

Think before you vote!

Although I've just spent the best part of a day working on EASA regulatory change proposals, so sympathise with DC's occasional frustration with Brussels €urocracy. We've been waiting 3 years for simple changes to the Aircrew Regulation, whilst EASA moves with the speed of a handicapped glacier*!



* another of my quotes which some journo (or Clarkson) will probably nick!

[dead_pan]

BEagle - tell me about it. Clarkson's point is another I've too have been banging on about.

BTW from recollection he's the sort of same neck of the woods as you? Me too - not a great place to be ATM...

[MAINJAFAD]

Whilst the loss of a strategic industry is obviously not ideal, in terms of short term capability and price it might be nice to just buy off the shelf toys next time without worrying about saving British jobs.

A very stupid and short sighted remark. If the industry dies we will never get it back There is also the cost issue to UK PLC overall. Yes a piece of kit will cost a lot more if made in the UK that it would if bought off the shelf from the USA or anywhere else. The main cause of this is the main cost of any design and manufacturing process. Manpower!!! The UK costs are inflated by a number of issues mainly driven by tax. What this however does is recycle a large amount of money back into HM Treasury either by the direct taxation (PAYE, NI payments and Corporation Tax) from the workers and indirect taxation on most things that the staff spend their money on and the direct taxation on the people and companies that provide those services. The most likely total costs that actually leave the UK would be the costs of materials / components not produced in the UK and any royalties on licencing which at most would be 30% of the total spend.

[Tourist]

A very stupid and short sighted remark. If the industry dies we will never get it back There is also the cost issue to UK PLC overall. Yes a piece of kit will cost a lot more if made in the UK that it would if bought off the shelf from the USA or anywhere else. The main cause of this is the main cost of any design and manufacturing process. Manpower!!! The UK costs are inflated by a number of issues mainly driven by tax. What this however does is recycle a large amount of money back into HM Treasury either by the direct taxation (PAYE, NI payments and Corporation Tax) from the workers and indirect taxation on most things that the staff spend their money on and the direct taxation on the people and companies that provide those services. The most likely total costs that actually leave the UK would be the costs of materials / components not produced in the UK and any royalties on licencing which at most would be 30% of the total spend.
Yes, I get all that, and thanks for the insult.

My point, which I thought I made quite clearly but obviously not, was that if we didn't have to worry about UK industry we would often have cheaper/better kit like many smaller nations around us do.

F15/F16/F18/F22? instead of Tornado/Typhoon
Arleigh Burke many years ago instead of T45 now.
P8 instead of Nimrod.......oh, wait...

Apache for half the price.

The simple fact is that even with the taxation of UK industry, you cannot pretend that we get value for money by any stretch of the imagination with our toys.

[Evalu8ter]

I would suggest that BrExit would merely be a convenient scapegoat if we voted Leave. Leonardo seems to be repositioning its assets, wherever possible, back in Italy (which should come as no surprise as the Italian govt is a major shareholder). If the UK MoD is not the sort of customer that is going to order another 30 Merlins or 40 Wildcats, and seems certain to go to the OEM for Apache this time, then why should they keep a plant in the UK open? Merlins and AW139/49/68/89 can all be built in Italy or the US, the A609 is nowhere near Yeovil. The only platform solely built in the UK is, I think, Wildcat which is only getting a handful of orders. Maybe post Apache some MoD "sweeteners" will be forthcoming (taking the Option on the other Wildcats to replace Lx 9A / Gaz perhaps) or, perhaps, there will be a double header in Tory nightmares; a massive split over Europe and a revisiting of the Westland crisis. Only this time, selling to the US would probably be a good thing.

Tourist - I agree; the designers I know at AW are amongst the best in the world. Every time we've given them an aircraft they've improved the breed. The problems are with some very short sighted marketing people and some poor choices of workshare to keep / develop certain technologies in Italy.

[Genstabler]

What a pessimistic bunch of losers! Brexit means leaving the EU, not Europe. It also means retaining our national sovereignty, with everything that entails. As for Clarksons splendid notion of reforming Europe from the inside, cobblers. In its current state it is unreformable. Look at the reception Cameron got. If we leave the EU, which I hope to God we do, nothing will change for a couple of years. There will be a good deal of smoke and bluster and we will then continue afloat while the EU continues to disintegrate as an undemocratic political superstate. If and when it returns to a common market, it may rise again from the ashes. In the meantime, just watch as a number of other reluctant members follow our lead.

[Tourist]

In the meantime, just watch as a number of other reluctant members follow our lead.

I could go either way on whether we should, but I must admit that I agree that if we left we might be the first of many.

That would probably be the ideal outcome for the UK.

Leave, and then get together with the more similar countries once it all breaks uk.

UK, Germany, and the Northern countries. Essentially any country that knows how to queue.

[ericferret]

Strategic industry?

The last factory in the UK capable of making a ships propeller closed years ago and nobody cared. So much for a maritime nation. BREXIT will make bugger all difference to whether Westlands stays open or not.

[Melchett01]

I could go either way on whether we should, but I must admit that I agree that if we left we might be the first of many.

That would probably be the ideal outcome for the UK.

Leave, and then get together with the more similar countries once it all breaks uk.

UK, Germany, and the Northern countries. Essentially any country that knows how to queue.

Queueing is not a national characteristic I would ascribe to the Germans. Maybe if we aligned with cricket playing nations things might be a bit more civilised. At least we'd stop for tea at 1630 each day.

[ZH844]

Mmmmm.....you all need to look closer to what's happening at Yeovil. Boeing have a Design Centre about 200m from the Leonardo Main Gate and have been harvesting AW's finest for the last two years... The ignorance of the Italian management and the U.K. managers who have aligned themselves with this dictatorship has allowed the heart to be ripped out of the company. Those who value their career and are true professionals have left for Thales, MBDA and Boeing...the end is nigh for Westlands and it's an insult to those who made the company great.

The corrupt Italians with their narrow minded attitude are responsible for the downfall...the monkeys are truly running the zoo!

[Hangarshuffle]

Yea I remember that factory/foundry closing Eric = up Weardale wasn't it? Wolsingham. Its totally flattened now - I drove past it a while back.
Brexit will win this one. See it coming. Straw poll with my mates in drink and everyone seemed to want out. Immigration is the big issue and the referendum the outlet for rage.

[Willard Whyte]

I would suggest that BrExit would merely be a convenient scapegoat if we voted Leave.

Sums it up beautifully, and probably not just for Leonardo - Finmeccanica.

[NutLoose]

I do wonder if we jump, whether the EU will implode in on itself, I can forsee other Countries watching with interest the post departure effect on our economy, and if they see a positive effect to leaving, possibly calling their own referendums. .

What I don't want to see is what happened in Eire where they repeated the vote until they got the result Europe wanted in the Lisbon treaty ratification.
Rather like the SDP over the Scottish vote, where they seem incapable of accepting the obvious. Neither are democracy at work.



..

[Genstabler]

Leave the EU and rejoin the World as an independent sovereign nation state.

[Bladdered]

Genstabler - why because it was better in the good old days?

[NutLoose]

He is not the only one for it Bladdered.

[Bladdered]

Just saying Nutloose - my recollection of the 50s and early 60s when we were an independent trading nation were not as 'great' as the 'grey vote' seem to be alluding to in the frequent interviews I see. Oh well, we can always get into bed with Donald - he will look after us.

[NutLoose]

N Zealand better start to ramp lamb production back up, along with the Danes and their bacon ;)


Daaaanissssssssshhhhhh :)

[BEagle]

...my recollection of the 50s and early 60s when we were an independent trading nation were not as 'great' as the 'grey vote' seem to be alluding to in the frequent interviews I see...

Quite so, Bladdered! And as for the joys of travelling 'on the continent', with v-forms, sterling limits, green cards, no reciprocal health agreements, bail bonds, International Driving Permits.....and the 'bottle and 200' being all you were allowed to bring home. At least the younger generation are going to vote against anything which might risk their LoCo airline trips to various parts of Europe for cheap fun.

But the crumblies think that the sun always shone on an empire (which no longer exists), 'W*gs began at Calais', BMC cars and Bush TVs beat anything 'foreign'. They probably also still believe that spaghetti grows on trees, because Dim Dickie Dimbleby told them so on Panorama.

[Wander00]

Beags - I think you need a lie down old chap. Don't get quite so excited, it is not good for we more mature chaps

[dead_pan]

Never the 'twain...

Anyhow, story is rattling around in a few nationals. Will have to wait and see because a few haven't decided which way (if any) they're going to tilt. Fun and games.

[dead_pan]

At least the younger generation are going to vote against anything which might risk their LoCo airline trips to various parts of Europe for cheap fun.

Well, ish. A fair proportion of them are quite a bit more cosmopolitan than we give them credit for, having travelled a helluva lot more and wider than we'd all done at their age. They wonder what all the fuss is about.

When I were a lad, I thought the Isle of Wight was exotic, faraway destination...

[Clockwork Mouse]

And as for the joys of travelling 'on the continent', with v-forms, sterling limits, green cards, no reciprocal health agreements, bail bonds, International Driving Permits.....and the 'bottle and 200' being all you were allowed to bring home.
Why do you think we will be back to that Beagle?
But the crumblies think that the sun always shone on an empire (which no longer exists), 'W*gs began at Calais', BMC cars and Bush TVs beat anything 'foreign'. They probably also still believe that spaghetti grows on trees, because Dim Dickie Dimbleby told them so on Panorama
How mature.

[Genstabler]

Bladdered
Genstabler - why because it was better in the good old days
No. Because I would like to live in a sovereign nation which can trade with the whole world should it wish to, make its own decisions and not be subject to the undemocratic government of the EU superstate and its 28 provinces.

[Genstabler]

A trade deals does not need a president, an anthem, a flag, a currency, a parliament, the ability to make law, tens of billions of pounds of donations, its own paramilitary police force. Neither does it need to plan an army.

[Not a Crew Chief]

Beagle
Couple of points.
I'm currently in Greece and it was announced on flight out that duty free fags and booze couldn't be sold as we're in the EU! Bottle and 200 would be most welcome.
My current car insurance states on revese it is minimum for Europe. Does it matter if this is on a print yourself A4 sheet or green card. When I went to my niece's wedding in Bielefeld recently would it matter if I had to make a brief stop at the borders. Had to do it every weekend when shopping in Venlo from Laarbruch.
As long as the EU orders us to keep European criminals and our government can't/won't/or is told to deport Commonwealth citizens then out is the only option. And as others have said. Will they stop selling us BM W, VW, Skoda. I drive a British (Indian and Commonwealth) Jag. What about you? Everything electronic in my house is far eastern so as far as aware not reliant on Europe for anything but they rely on me as a net payer. So how come my voice via our MEP's is unheard.

[BEagle]

Wander00 wrote: Beags - I think you need a lie down old chap. Don't get quite so excited, it is not good for we more mature chaps

I'm not excited at all - just back from driving my German car to a German owned supermarket to buy German sausages and Belgian beer. In British West Oxfordshire.

Whilst sporting a UK/EU crossed flags lapel badge...:ok:

Like it or not, the UK is no longer some isolated insular state, neither is it running a British Empire on which the sun never sets. Because it has.

[Capt Scribble]

Genstabler; absolutely. The only reason the EU are interested in the UK staying in is our net £ contribution, but more importantly, a brexit would give a lead to others who are also dissatisfied with the present situation.

[Genstabler]

BEagle. I am so sorry that you have given up on the country that you lived in and served. You are correct in saying the UK is no longer some isolated insular state. As long as we remain in the EU we are in fact no longer an independent and sovereign nation at all. We are an increasingly disenfranchised minor province in a federal political institution that is growing in size, ambition, remoteness and authority and failing in everything else. I hope you enjoy your future as a citizen of the EU and that the unelected, faceless, foreign bureaucrats who you are choosing to allow to govern your life will grant you and your descendants a secure and comfortable existence.

[Capt Scribble]

We are already " western Europe" according to the EU map of regions. I am delighted that they have decided to rename our part of the continent. Did they ask anyone?!

[dead_pan]

just back from driving my German car to a German owned supermarket to buy German sausages and Belgian beer

Hmm, I think know the one. Had to intervene in a little set-to outside there a few months back when one of the 'new arrivals' got a bit confused by the road priorities and was getting an earful from a local. Not pretty. This particular genie is going to be b*gger to get back in the lamp.

Anyhow, I'm guessing this debate has been done to death and then some on JB.