Did Delta pilots fall asleep over Greece?

[AmericanFlyer]

Ghost flight: Pilots fall asleep with 140 aboard, F16s scrambled -VIDEO - Mirage News (http://www.miragenews.com/ghost-flight-pilots-fall-asleep-with-140-aboard-f16s-scrambled-video/)

[mothminor]

I remember as a new first officer 30 years ago returning from a Greek island in the wee hours asking the Capt if I could have a 10 minute nap.
I was woken about 20 mins later by his snoring.:ooh:
It wasn`t a problem in those days.


Later as Capt, I made sure we agreed who was to stay awake ( he/she would keep there r/t volume turned up) and set some sort of alarm as a back up.

[RAT 5]

What happened to the 20min check from cabin crew, or is that only a European thing?

[Willit Run]

Those new flight and duty time regulations really helped here......

[Denti]

What happened to the 20min check from cabin crew, or is that only a European thing?

Not even required in europe either. For normal napping we don't use that, for controlled rest on the flight deck procedure, which is never really used even if it would be needed, it is required. Controlled rest is a mandatory report to the authority as it is a severe fatigue issue.

[Sailvi767]

Delta does not fly from Paris to Kuwait. The don't fly to Kuwait at all. Perhaps a charter but I have never known them to run charter flights out of Paris.

[caber]

Some issues with this article. As pointed out, delta doesn't fly that route. It was in fact a DOD charter from Hahn to kuwait. Second, sensational reporting aside, according to other sources the 764 was transitioning to the Greek fir and was not in contact with them for about 10 minutes when the decision was made to scramble an intercept. Coming so soon after the disappearance of the Egyptian plane perhaps a bit more sensitive than on other days?

I don't know for sure what happened but the cited article is definitely not full of facts!

[Hotel Tango]

Military charter from Frankfurt Hahn to Kuwait, operated by Delta Airlines.

Edit: Caber beat me to it as I was typing.

[Hotel Tango]

I don't know for sure what happened but the cited article is definitely not full of facts!

Are they ever? ;)

[DaveReidUK]

A Delta Airlines spokesman said: "While transiting to Greek airspace, the flight crew of Delta flight 8957, a charter operation from Hahn, Germany to Kuwait, was unable to establish radio communications with Greek air traffic control for a short period.

"This occurred during a handoff between air traffic control agencies and communications were expeditiously reestablished.

"At no point did the Boeing 767-400ER leave its planned route of flight."

[CaptainProp]

Well, regulation or not, every single company I've worked for have used a 20 min rule for cc to check on flight deck. Then there's of course times when cc are busier and it's hard to get a check done.

[MrDK]

All this could be quit simple.
An "alarm" that quietly (not silent) would require a pilot to provide an input of any sort every x minutes which could include a "snooze".
If nothing in a minute later it could become progressively louder.
This could not possibly interfere with flight operation even in an emergency or other critical moments when flight crew provides very frequent inputs anyway.
Is it too much to ask that either of two awake pilots at cruise altitude while on auto pilot are asked to do "something" every x minutes?

[Tokyo Geoff]

Maybe better to do something about the rostering/fatigue issues in the first place. Waking up sleepy pilots is fine, but they shouldn't be so tired they are both falling asleep mid flight.

[Phileas Fogg]

It wasn't a problem in those days.

When I was young, and as an off duty Ops guy assisting the crew with overpowering (having a wrestling match with) a disruptive passenger on the outbound LON/LAX leg we, kinda had a reputation for it, had one hell of a crew party in the Santa Monica hotel.

Next lunchtime, before the 3pm (ish) departure back to LON, we were in Ye Olde Kings Head drinking and playing darts etc., both cabin crew and one of the pilots, I was cockpit jumpseating it on the return leg, the Flight Engineer checked me out on his panel before he buggered off to the downstairs galley for a nap, the Captain announced that he was to take a nap however the First Officer, having been drinking, conked out also.

There I was, an off duty Ops guy, in command of a wide-body jet!

It wasn't a problem in those days :)

[Ancient Mariner]

In the eighties, on a ship with Engine Room Class E1, one man on duty ,we had buttons that needed to be pressed every 20 mins. If not Bridge would send a watchman to see if we were alive. Problem solved.

[scotland234]

Similar on trains with the drivers safety device (aka deadmans handle) needing to be depressed at random intervals upon a beep if no control inputs have been detected.

[Octane]

What? F16's don't have horns fitted to honk the sleepyheads awake?!

[RAT 5]

Hahn- Greece is not that far. Quick to nap with so many FIR ATC hand overs. It's not such a soporific route, especially if you are not familiar with it. Perhaps there is more to this than reported in such simple terms?

[Ian W]

All this could be quit simple.
An "alarm" that quietly (not silent) would require a pilot to provide an input of any sort every x minutes which could include a "snooze".
If nothing in a minute later it could become progressively louder.
This could not possibly interfere with flight operation even in an emergency or other critical moments when flight crew provides very frequent inputs anyway.
Is it too much to ask that either of two awake pilots at cruise altitude while on auto pilot are asked to do "something" every x minutes?
I believe such an inactivity alarm is already standard on most Boeing aircraft.

[RandomPerson8008]

They wouldn't need to be asleep for this to happen, just unfamiliar with the area. International ATC coordination in that part of the world leaves a lot to be desired, and if 121.5 is turned down due to excessive chatter, ATC might not be there to hand you off to the next frequency at the FIR. Let's not jump to conclusions.

[ATC Watcher]

Lots of BS and journalistic sensationalism . 10 min loss of Comm in a comm transfer is 99% of the time a wrong frequency set , more frequently so now with 8,33 to which the US crew are not yet that familiar with .
Nothing to do with sleeping ...:*

[RAT 5]

southeastern Tirana (Albania) at 7.10pm local time on Thursday without identifying itself and pilots did not respond to repeated calls by controllers from Italy and Greece for at least an hour, an official said on Sunday, confirming Greek media reports.
Following military protocol, at 7.49pm two F-16 fighter jets intercepted the Delta plane while it was flying near the Aegean island of Santorini.

That is a long time to be silent on ATC when crossing many FIR's. Bells ringing? It would to an EU pilot.

A Delta Airlines spokesman said: "While transiting to Greek airspace, the flight crew of Delta flight 8957, a charter operation from Hahn, Germany to Kuwait, was unable to establish radio communications with Greek air traffic control for a short period.
"This occurred during a handoff between air traffic control agencies and communications were expeditiously reestablished.

This sounds like great spin compared to what is reported by other sources. It diverts some blame to ATC and converts 1hr into expeditiously. Ho-Hum.

To those being the 'fatigue' drum we need to know the previous roster. A 17.00 departure and sleeping 2 hrs later in unfamiliar territory does not sound plausible to me. However, I'm sure the Delta guys enjoyed F16's rather than Migs.

[Sailvi767]

You are assuming the press report is accurate. 98 times out of 100 they are not.

[funfly]

I thought that was what the dog was for.

[Miraculix]

Please, pilots never sleep in the cockpit, its forbidden! Now for little controlled nap...

[anson harris]

They wouldn't need to be asleep for this to happen, just unfamiliar with the area. International ATC coordination in that part of the world leaves a lot to be desired, and if 121.5 is turned down due to excessive chatter, ATC might not be there to hand you off to the next frequency at the FIR. Let's not jump to conclusions.

If you're not aware of the airspace you're in, you're doing it wrong.