The morons on 121.5. Authorities please act!

[MFALK]

I do not consider myself a prude or uptight but the appalling behaviour by some cretins on 121.5 over Europe a few days ago enrages me. These are supposed to be professionals entrusted with the live of hundreds of souls and yet, act as if they are utter morons.

So a poor chap mistakenly calls Company on 121.5 and instead of politely telling him to switch freqs., an idiot goes "Go ahead.." so the original caller thinks he is speaking to Company and goes on with his requirements ... Apparently overjoyed with their prank, the morons start a chorus of "You're on 121.5 mate..." in a variety of accents obviously pleased with their sorry selves...

At some point, a few even interjected by a humming rendition of Piero Umiliani's Mah Na Mah Na which caused even more "humorous" outbursts, catcalls etc... WTF?

What mental age would one have one to be to find this funny!?

Some things to ponder...


Can the Authorities please set up a triangulation system (shouldn't be too difficult) to nail these idiots and make sure they have to go through a phsych evaluation. Please don't tell us it is being implemented and just let the fools fall in the trap first!

Do you understand that by your actions some flight crew have to turn 121.5 down to avoid the distraction, loosing one of the last defenses in a LOC event which could lead to an interception or worse?

Think what the Authorities and your employer would think if within a few minutes of acting like a moron you happen to experience some sort of technical event which requires the CVR to be read, what would that transcript make you look like and would you be likely to be retained by your employer?

[fireflybob]

I totally agree!

To some extent this reflects the culture we live in these days - discipline seems to be a thing of the past.

[FlyANA]

Well, the CVR can only be inspected by the AAIB, so I'm presuming you'd be in worse trouble in that instance.

But I've dealt with a large amount of PLOCs due to people turning down 121.5 due to distraction (usually from ELTs though!), then missing freq changes and then the jets get sent up.

It's the small holes in the cheese....

[Chesty Morgan]

Where is he.....................where is he................................where is he.................................where is he ...YOU'RE ON GUARD...........there he is.

[RightHandMan]

In this case I think you're getting worked up over a relatively rare event. It's not exactly a display of the highest levels of professionalism, but if your F/O has to listen to this type of irrational ranting about the "unprofessionalism" of a bit of light humor, he's probably more inclined to turn down his intercom before box 2.

On the other hand on a nice day in the UK and 121.5 becomes unbearable as every PPL in the country seems to be doing a practice PAN or attaining a location fixes. It's great that they practice with a real controller but maybe assign a freq specially for it, 125.55 for example.

[Unbusy]

Some are so fast to reply that they must fly with Guard selected as active.
Has the idiot that makes animal noises been identified yet? All the way from FAO to the UK, so not ground based, as i think some transmissions are.
It is mostly just a reflection of their boredom due to the repetitive nature of the job imo.
Still, at least occasionally it gets them away from the iphone.

[captplaystation]

MFALK,

Top post & I wholeheartedly agree. I have to admit to wasting air time several times these past few years admonishing the Pr1cks who find it so funny to say "go-ahead". This & the "teenage humour" displayed by certain little lads is pretty puerile & a very poor reflection on the (lack of) maturity by certain crew members.

[Right Way Up]

Makes you wonder where the Captains are when they do it....

.....or maybe it is THE Captains....even worse thought. :O

[fireflybob]

I suppose EASA would be more interested that they've got English Language Proficiency at Level 6 rather than taking any action about this issue.....

[Jwscud]

London D&D have been known to triangulate and call by name some of the worse offenders in UK airspace.

I recall they had a go at a Lufthansa crew who were complaining anonymously about a practice pan.

[RAT 5]

In this case I think you're getting worked up over a relatively rare event. It's not exactly a display of the highest levels of professionalism,

Perhaps, but.....if they display this level of infancy in this scenario what low level of professionalism might they apply in a more serious event? What can be said about the PA blocking the primary ATC frequency is that ATC usually are the first to respond and slap on the first is usually enough. Glad my wife is not on duty at the time. Ouch!

[Yaw String]

Try listening to the babble over South East Asia...At least I can't understand a syllable of what is being said..but,fair smattering of animal noises too...Demonstrates worrying lack of imagination...as to how it affects the monitoring of 121.5......
However....I do miss that music channel that used to pervade most Bangkok overflight frequencies...Gone bust,I guess!

[RightHandMan]

Perhaps, but.....if they display this level of infancy in this scenario what low level of professionalism might they apply in a more serious event?

I'm sure they up their game when more serious events come along. I would argue that it's the strung out, by the book types, that are more likely to struggle with the serious events. If you can't keep your emotions under check at some morons acting up on the radio, I suspect there's a good chance you struggle to keep calm during a serious event as well.

[320DRIVER]

So RightHandMan, let me get this right, your inference is that if someone doesn't play along with this infantile banter, then one will not be able to handle a real emergency?

[Huck]

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.....

[Tu.114]

The most disturbing thing I heard once was an apparently genuine emergency communication on this frequency between a ship on the North Sea and an approaching helicopter that was stepped on by some numbnuts every few seconds with "you´re on GUAAA--AAAA-RD!".

Why it is not possible to just ignore the inadvertent calls on 121,5 and let the initiator notice on his own that the lack of a response is due to his frequency selector is rather beyond me. Ignoring things that are not meant for one is a long-lost art, it seems...

[de facto]

Last week in Spanish FIR was the latest.
Spankings are missing for sure.

[jack schidt]

Practice Pan X 3 make me furious to be honest. Chose another parallel frequency for these calls. While trying to hear my LHR approach calls on a very busy/already congested frequency, to be punctuated with a(nother) pointless 121.5 call is a flight safety issue. As a global operator, Europe has become the worst 121.5 congested frequency of pointless calls. The U.K. Needs to realise that it appears to have the worst record of all for 121.5 "blocks" of the main frequency.

[Bernoulli]

Unfortunately this idiocy is not confined to Europe. Somewhere over the middle bit of America yesterday one of the twelve year olds belched loud and long on guard. Attempts to persuade those of us who take a dim view of this behaviour to 'lighten up' display a complete lack of understanding about aviation. Ask anyone who's had to make a call for real if they find the 'fun' on 121.5 amusing. P***ing around on guard is not the best way to have a laugh and people who think it is need to grow up.

So there.

(After a long silence there was a single word response to the plonker above from an American voice...."idiot")

[giggitygiggity]

Is listening to 121.5 whilst on approach in the London TMA really the best use of your radios. I would have thought it would be a distraction (like you said) that actually erodes the safety rather than increasing it in the unlikely event you cock the frequencies up. Concentrating on one box alone is hard enough down there.

[LLuCCiFeR]

Get a life!

Better focus on the real dangers in aviation; 1) pay to fly muppets in the cockpit in combination with 2) fatigue!

My educated guess is that once you start focusing on those two issues (i.e. less fatigue and more professionalism in the cockpit) that the number of those 121.5 annoyances will sharply reduce!

Moaning that "the authorities must do something" and set up some kind of triangulation system is a classical case of fighting the symptoms and not the causes. :ugh:

I guess you can then moan about an "all intrusive and totalitarian micromanaging nanny state" in your next topic? :ok:

[Squawk7777]

Hire Delta Airlines to enforce Guard discipline! That's why they are sometimes referred to as the Guard Nazis in the US.

I agree that sometimes 121.5 has a little bit of exaggerated chatter, but let's focus on more important issues in this profession.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. In that order, please. As previously mentioned, fatigue and wannabe exploitation are some of a few more important issues. (Im)Proper R/T procedures have been usually been exaggerated (numerous threads comparing British and US).

[fireflybob]

Undisciplined use of any aeronautical mobile frequency is not a trivial matter - especially an international emergency frequency such as 121.500 MHz.

I believe this is called a Professional Pilots Rumour Network?

[ShyTorque]

Practice Pan X 3 make me furious to be honest. Chose another parallel frequency for these calls.

Whether you like it or not, it's perfectly correct use of 121.5 in UK airspace.
If something like this really does make you furious, I suggest you take advice from a aviation medical practitioner, because it sounds like you aren't coping too well with what is a fairly normal situation.

Alternatively, simply deselect the frequency at critical times and switch it back on a few seconds later when other people have finished talking.

[jack schidt]

To ERR is human! Keeping 121.5 on means that if you dial in a wrong frequency when changed to (eg) Tower (by mistake) then there is a safety net available by having 121.5 on UNLESS it's being blocked by idiots (generally). A call to, or from said tower on 121.5 (for landing clearance) could prevent an accident/incident occurring. Stating anything BUT 121.5 should be left for unusual or emergency situations is pure lack or experience/understanding or professionalism.

[Airbubba]

Can the Authorities please set up a triangulation system (shouldn't be too difficult) to nail these idiots and make sure they have to go through a phsych evaluation. Please don't tell us it is being implemented and just let the fools fall in the trap first!

With the advent of very accurate time sources multilateration techniques are feasible to give a good location on a transmission even with hobbyist equipment:

Multilateration (MLAT) (http://www.multilateration.com/surveillance/multilateration.html)

Multilateration (MLAT) ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/adsb/mlat/)

I'm guessing VHF multilateration with an analog signal might be harder but the principle is the same.

Also, one of the great proposals years ago was for ATC voice comms to go digital as many other busy forms of communication have done. There would be a tag on each transmission to identify the sender as with many APCO P25 digital police systems. Maybe some of the younger folks here will live to see this happen.

Think what the Authorities and your employer would think if within a few minutes of acting like a moron you happen to experience some sort of technical event which requires the CVR to be read, what would that transcript make you look like and would you be likely to be retained by your employer?

I agree and, as you know, it has happened where even a minor incident or failure makes the entire two hour CVR recording fair game for review. Even if you're in the union, you'll have a lot of explaining to do if the tape shows that you weren't doing your job airborne.

Hire Delta Airlines to enforce Guard discipline! That's why they are sometimes referred to as the Guard Nazis in the US.


Cathay and FedEx MEM crews in Asia often take similar leadership positions in R/T enforcement in Asia from what I've seen. ;)

To some extent this reflects the culture we live in these days - discipline seems to be a thing of the past.

To some degree it is indeed generational. But I've been listening to the whiners say things like 'until they pay me more and give me a week off for my birthday, I'm not going to do my job well' for decades now.

[jackieofalltrades]

I agree, the childish, moronic messing around on 121.5 needs to be clamped down upon. I do wonder how one of the frat boys in the front approaches the subject with the other pilot; "Hey, do you know what will make our job better? Let's belch and play Family Guy clips on Guard!"
"Sure, that sounds like a great idea."
"Oh, was that call for us? I was too busy being a prat on Guard to listen to your instruction."

As for a separate frequency for learner pilots to do their practice Pans on, that is a good idea in my opinion. I have no idea what spare frequencies there are across the UK that could provide a universal frequency. But I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to set up.

[Out Of Trim]

As for a separate frequency for learner pilots to do their practice Pans on, that is a good idea in my opinion. I have no idea what spare frequencies there are across the UK that could provide a universal frequency. But I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to set up.

It's not so much the difficulty; It's the cost! The Auto Triangulation system in the UK has existed for many years on 121.5 and 243.0. Another Military UHF frequency was set up some time later to accommodate Practice Pans etc.

The UK Distress And Diversion Cells ( Military ) need the practice also, to maintain their own proficiency. They aid many GA pilots unsure of their position often in marginal VMC or worsening conditions and prevent them becoming major emergencies.

If the Airlines need another frequency to be covered; then, the industry will have to pay for it to be added to the system and pay for it to be maintained.

[Una Due Tfc]

Why isn't 123.45 used for practice pans etc?

[crwkunt roll]

Why do practice Pans need to be done at all? Do it in the classroom or while you're sitting on the throne.

[ShyTorque]

To ERR is human! Keeping 121.5 on means that if you dial in a wrong frequency when changed to (eg) Tower (by mistake) then there is a safety net available by having 121.5 on UNLESS it's being blocked by idiots (generally). A call to, or from said tower on 121.5 (for landing clearance) could prevent an accident/incident occurring.

My own experience says that most "blocking" of 121.5 actually comes from airline co-pilots inadvertently transmitting on the frequency when trying to contact handling agents and having failed to select and check their switches. Recently, in a two hour flight I heard three examples of this (I routinely listen to 121.5 on my secondary radio when it's not being used for obtaining ATIS etc, even though my present operation is not mandated to do so).

[Capn Bloggs]

Whether you like it or not, it's perfectly correct use of 121.5 in UK airspace.
If something like this really does make you furious, I suggest you take advice from a aviation medical practitioner, because it sounds like you aren't coping too well with what is a fairly normal situation.

Alternatively, simply deselect the frequency at critical times and switch it back on a few seconds later when other people have finished talking.
Seriously? :confused:

[Major Cleve Saville]

Can anybody tell me the regulation that made the Antipodean Pilots the worlds 'Guard Police'. I have heard a real emergency (smoke in the cockpit) being stepped on by 'you're on guard mate' and even the guard police then being told they are on guard.

The one time in 35 years I have used 121.5 after a loss of comms during descent (power failure at the ATCC) the 'Guard Police' kindly told me I was on the wrong frequency. I personally find the 'Guard Police' more intrusive than the odd animal noise, and also a misuse of the frequency.

Morons who transmit animal noises on The Aircraft Emergency Frequency know exactly what frequency they are transmitting on they do not need to be told "Mate you're on guard".

[I-AINC]

I totally agree.

And I agree with Jack aswell, when you are approaching an airport in the UK and you listen all this planes got lost and asking for a practise pan to hide it and get a fix to come back home.

Lack of discipline in the air these days.

[737er]

Livin the Dream part II covers it!


At the 3:12 mark. http://youtu.be/YoZE0nE60sk

[dudubrdx]

I usually don't care if some want to pollute the frequency.
But I do care during night flights when one of us have a bit of controlled rest and turn up box 2 just in case the other one falls asleep.
That's usually when some think it's okay at night to start chatting. And this doesn't always happen in dodgy countries, it's happening more and more in Germany for example

[Aluminium shuffler]

The regularity and specific locations involved in some of this - the "deux bierres" over eastern central France and the kiddies "cow-can" over western Germany, for example, make me thing it is ground stations perpetrating some of these things. I know an individual whom I had a lot of respect for until I heard he was often making the exact comments in Chesty Morgan's post. Shame.

[Private jet]

More evidence that it is not the gentleman's profession it once was. Inevitably with increasing numbers comes riff raff.

[pudoc]

But it's ok when the world cup is on and people want to know the football scores!

[Martin_123]

in Ireland we do practice pans without pushing the ptt button, you just have to demonstrate that you're doing it as part of your PFL, but you don't transmit. I'm surprised that this isn't a practice across the EU

[RAT 5]

in Ireland we do practice pans without pushing the ptt button, you just have to demonstrate that you're doing it as part of your PFL, but you don't transmit. I'm surprised that this isn't a practice across the EU

I thought the practice PAN was a method to discover your position when unsure. You then had to triangulate and find out where you are. Or this is a mistake? If true, then surely you have to transmit? However, it is Ireland: and a real personal story comes to mind. I was out in the sticks, in my car, following a map, but roads & forest tracks & farm roads were difficult to differentiate. It seemed obvious to me I'd missed a turning onto a correct road. I turned around and drove back to a small cottage where the elderly gentleman was working in the garden. With map in hand I approached and said "I was lost." "oh no you're not", he said with a smile, "I know her you are, you're here." No doubting that.

[Ian W]

In the UK there are Distress and Diversion cells in the London and Scottish centres that have autotriangulation capability and access to all the radars covering the FIR/UIR. Any aircraft transmitting on guard can be located rapidly using this system. It works well as all that is needed is a radio no other 'radiating aids' such as ADS or SSR. In FIRs without an autotriangulation system there is very little support to the aircraft on guard frequencies they are just there as a (supposedly) quiet frequency on which someone in distress can call for assistance. It follows that doing practice emergencies outside the cover of autotriangulation systems is of little value.

Surprisingly, despite the funny noises and back chat, pilots can be wary of transmitting on the emergency frequency and actually using internationally recognized emergency states and passing the correct information. This is especially the case with low experience GA pilots, who are also the most likely to have problems such as being lost. In consequence it makes sense for them to have a practice pan and learn that the D&D cells will rapidly assist them. The D&D controllers can rapidly shut down practice calls if there is a real emergency and pilots doing practice calls are expected to listen out and not call for a practice if an emergency is in progress.

The purpose of the D&D cells is to take executive control of any aircraft emergency in their FIR/UIR that means that usually control is left with the current controller but the D&D cell ensures that the correct agencies are alerted, that emergency responses are all coordinated and acts as one point of contact for the emergency.

[wiggy]

..Well as a former user of their services on several occasions I don't wish to "diss" the UK D&D cell but 9/11 changed things for Airlines and Military. The amount of R/T traffic on 121.5 that is audible within and beyond the UK FIR does cause distractions, most especially on a summer's weekend afternoon and the consequences of losing comm these days are potentially far more serious than they were prior to 9/11. I honestly do think there does need to be a re-think of the use of 121.5 for practice calls in UK airspace.

OTOH as for the deliberate abuse of 121.5 you get elsewhere in the world..hanging's too good for them, etc....

[4runner]

I'm sure they up their game when more serious events come along. I would argue that it's the strung out, by the book types, that are more likely to struggle with the serious events. If you can't keep your emotions under check at some morons acting up on the radio, I suspect there's a good chance you struggle to keep calm during a serious event as well.

Yup. A caution light and they freeze up.

[Fly4Business]

Isn't this over reacting? There was somebody joking on 121.5, ok, so what?

[autobrake3]

There was somebody joking on 121.5, ok, so what?

Ill disciplined, childish, rude, uneducated, unprofessional, dangerous, and illegal to mention a few "so what's". If you are unable to understand it's appropriate and intended use, you are part of the problem.

As mentioned previously I assumed that the culprits where on the ground with hand held transceivers. If anyone transmitted inappropriate rubbish whilst flying with me, they would be off the plane at the next landing.

[Bealzebub]

Isn't this over reacting? There was somebody joking on 121.5, ok, so what?

Sure! Just like what is wrong with the odd prank 999 (911) call for a bit of light relief. The aviation world lost its "innocence" on the 11th September 2001 (if indeed it hadn't done so long before then.)

Monitoring 121.5 which used to be "good practice" has now evolved into something "mandatory." It really is a monumental pain in the ass to have to monitor "kiddies" who think they are something special by transmitting the musical content of their iPhone or making silly (but no doubt in their own mind) "amusing" noises over that frequency.

It is little wonder that pilots turn down this puerile distraction and the consequence is an increase of PLOC events. It is a serious erosion of safety and it is beyond the point in time when perpetrators weren't held to account.

As an ex-instructor it was a basic and important part of a students training that they were familiar and comfortable with using 121.5 when "lost" or unsure of their position, or requiring urgent assistance. However, the reality these days is that 121.5 simply isn't the best resource for this, and another universal frequency needs to be prioritised for this purpose.

The regulators need to "get their finger out" on this issue. I would imagine "Generation Facebook" will possibly think twice if there is realistic likelihood of losing their Hundred & Fifty Thousand Dollar Pilots licence on the back of comedy auditions on 121.5. By the same token, a significant number of those "practice Pan" calls, probably aren't as "practice" as they would want you to believe. There must be a proper and easily usable response network established (such as another frequency,) but 121.5 simply isn't appropriate at this point in time.

[Methersgate]

I am sorry to say that in merchant shipping Ch 16 VHF is very widely abused particularly when out of range of shore stations. 2182 very much less so.

[jackieofalltrades]

Here's a question for those who think this is an over reaction and it's not a big deal.
Would you, as a pilot, make the same "joke" transmission and stupid noises over the cabin PA? Or if an official from the CAA was sat in the jump seat?

Unless your answer is 100% honestly "yes" then you should be able to realise what the problem is. And if it is yes, the there's a different problem to address.

[Major Cleve Saville]

I agree with Ian W.In FIRs without an autotriangulation system there is very little support to the aircraft on guard frequencies they are just there as a (supposedly) quiet frequency on which someone in distress can call for assistance.

As far as I can see over most of the Western World emergencies involving IFR traffic will be handled by the main ATC frequencies. 121.5 tends therefore to be used as a standby universal frequency for loss of contact with ATC. Either by air traffic trying to contact someone or an aircraft asking for a relay. hardly an 'emergency 'I am not sure that over the Pacific or over most of Asia to SE Asia calling on 121.5 and expecting instant salvation will yield much in the way of tangible assistance. It might be useful in remote areas in terms of transmitting your last known position, to narrow down a search area. So outside of an area where it can be used to instantly fix your position and hand you over to an appropriate ATC unit, I cannot see that it is anything but a universal 'standby' frequency. I am not sure why the 'Guard Police' police it so vigorously. Nobody seems to object to an ELT in a hangar transmitting on 121.5 (very intrusive), why would they object to a practice PAN? 121.5 seems to have acquired a mythical status way beyond its possible usefulness. I cannot think of any real emergency situation where my first and most immediate action would be a broadcast on 121.5?

"YOUR ON PPRUNE!!""

[SOPS]

I was asked by ATC to call XYZ 123 on 121.5. I called them saying XYZ 123 this is ABC 123 on 121.5 , are you there. The first response, within seconds, was a very Nigel accent, saying ' your are on guard '

Yes ..I get that,,you..idiots..

Keep your white gloves on.:ugh:

[Bealzebub]

Here's a question for those who think this is an over reaction and it's not a big deal.
Would you, as a pilot, make the same "joke" transmission and stupid noises over the cabin PA? Or if an official from the CAA was sat in the jump seat?

Unless your answer is 100% honestly "yes" then you should be able to realise what the problem is. And if it is yes, the there's a different problem to address.


..or do it on your next line check. That should lighten the mood at the subsequent debrief!

[wiggy]

Nobody seems to object to an ELT in a hangar transmitting on 121.5

Oh I wouldn't bet on it.....:E

why would they object to a practice PAN?

My personal objection is that it increases the risk of a PLOC, and nowadays that can be a non-trivial event. Certainly if you're heading towards the UK on a sunny Saturday/Sunday afternoon all is normally quiet on 121.5 until the practice pans start becoming audible well before the London FIR...Give in to the temptation to lower the volume on box 3/R just a bit to hear what Rhine or Maastrict are saying, and bingo, in the event of a blown handover you're quickly looking at a PLOC.

I think perhaps a more appropriate question in this day and age is how the rest of the world's GA traffic manages to cope without having the practice pan facility...?

[Sir George Cayley]

Wiggy,

Are you suggesting that you are an integral part of the emergency situations response?

Over remote areas I can understand but over Europe?

Having intervened as a relay for a downed a/c shows the benefit of being on guard, except it was a sighting and change to 121.5.

[wiggy]

Are you suggesting that you are an integral part of the emergency situations response?

Errr no :confused:

Sorry but I'm missing the point you're no doubt trying to make (unless you are asking why am I and my colleagues are pretty much required these days to monitor 121.5, yes, even over Europe).

[dboy]

It is because of all that rubbish chit-chat talk on 121,5 i am simply not listening out the frequency anymore. It is very irritating.
Plz stay professional.

[FlyingCroc]

I flew over the North Atlantic. During hours some stupid imbecile made stupid animal and fart noises. Even after several inputs from pilots to grow up and stop it he did not quit. Next day the same, maybe the same idiot. Just unprofessional.

[sabenaboy]

I started a topic on this issue just a few weeks ago in the ATC-forum.

Why isn’t SELCAL used to contact us on 121,5? (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/577965-why-isn-t-selcal-used-contact-us-121-5-a.html)

A lot of pilots and ATCO's don't know that SELCAL works perfectly on VHF and thus also on 121,5! (read about it in the ATC-topic!)

A selcal signal is just an (audible) audio tone of a certain frequency! To send one you need a) an encoder and b) a transmitter. There is an app for android and iOs that works as a selcal encoder!
Play store selcal encoder (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?
id=de.fbits.selcal&hl=en)
Selcal encoder for iOS (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/iselcal/id909612463?mt=8)
You simply tap the selcal code in the app, hold the mike very close to the loudspeaker, push the transmit button and tap execute in the app and there you have your selcal signal.

It really works!! (I tested it a few times :ok: )

Listening to 121.5 over Europe is distracting to the primary job because of all the rubbish that people say on it.
With modern ATC suites, surely it wouldn't be that technologically difficult to add an option to the ATCO's screen to bring up a SELCAL option to call an aircraft. After all, if a geek can program a smartphone app in a few hours, surely a function could be dropped on to ATC center systems?

And heck, I would even hope that the ATCO tries the app on a smartphone before scrambling a fighter in a lost comm situation!!

It would be so useful!

[RAT 5]

Lots of airlines, especially the various 'favourites' don't have SECAL installed. LoCo is LoCo.

[edmundronald]

I'm a SLF. If some poor bastard in a single-engine prop with 100 hours and a Mark I eyeball gets lost in the UK and calls a practice pan, and recovers without anyone the wiser, you think he's polluting the frequency? Maybe YOU guys in heavies with a ton of nav equipment need a new frequency together with an OBLIGATION to answer within 10 seconds or lose your commercial license.

[ShyTorque]

in Ireland we do practice pans without pushing the ptt button, you just have to demonstrate that you're doing it as part of your PFL, but you don't transmit. I'm surprised that this isn't a practice across the EU

So are you really required to say the phrase "Practice Pan" across the cockpit? I can't see the point of that at all. If required to demonstrate how you would make a real urgency call, surely saying "Pan Pan" x 3 would be more appropriate?

[Chesty Morgan]

I'm a SLF. If some poor bastard in a single-engine prop with 100 hours and a Mark I eyeball gets lost in the UK and calls a practice pan, and recovers without anyone the wiser, you think he's polluting the frequency? Maybe YOU guys in heavies with a ton of nav equipment need a new frequency together with an OBLIGATION to answer within 10 seconds or lose your commercial license.

A practice PAN is not for really getting lost.

[Bealzebub]

I'm a SLF. If some poor bastard in a single-engine prop with 100 hours and a Mark I eyeball gets lost in the UK and calls a practice pan, and recovers without anyone the wiser, you think he's polluting the frequency? Maybe YOU guys in heavies with a ton of nav equipment need a new frequency together with an OBLIGATION to answer within 10 seconds or lose your commercial license.

Your first point is quite valid. Practice or real (and sometimes there is no distinction) that is part of the frequencies raison d'être. A new secondary universal frequency would be fine if that reduces the clutter. It doesn't really matter who has to make the change.

121.5 as part of the safety protocols, now needs mandatory monitoring. It is a safety net and provides a secondary layer of protection from PLOC events as one of its functions. It is the level of distracting and unnecessary babble that is frequently causing it be tuned out. When that happens the secondary protection is gone. This whole issue needs to be properly addressed by ICAO, and improvements and changes implemented as soon as possible. The system as it is, is no longer fit for purpose and hasn't been for quite some time. The poor situation is only exasserbated by the few who use it as a playground or arena. The facility needs to grow up, as do a few of its users.

[silvertate]

So a poor chap mistakenly calls Company on 121.5 and instead of politely telling him to switch freqs., an idiot goes "Go ahead.." so the original caller thinks he is speaking to Company and goes on with his requirements ...


Hold on a minute. Why would 'company' be listening on 121.5??

The last time I heard something similar - and an enraged Frenchman pilot shouting back - it was a prank call by a joe-public troll on the ground. They just thought it would be fun to wind up some pilots, and it worked. Unless you can be sure this was a pilot-to-company call on a frequency the company would not be using, you might have been trolled.

[wiggy]

Hold on a minute. Why would 'company' be listening on 121.5??


They wouldn't...but I doubt the "poor chap"/victim realised he was transmitting on 121.5 either.

I suspect I can't be the only one here who has dialled company freq up, not toggled it across from "standby" ..and transmitted...:oh:

[Cows getting bigger]

Unfortunately, it isn't just 121.5. Flying into Lisbon the other day there were numerous chummy exchanges between TAP pilots on a relatively busy approach frequency. Meanwhile, lo-cos constantly nagging for higher, faster, tighter whilst Nigel tells everyone that his company SOPS demand 140kts fully stabilised at 8 miles

What are we creating?

[NWCoast]

Isn't this over reacting? There was somebody joking on 121.5, ok, so what?

Thing is, this **** went on for a good five minutes.
I was heading down towards Italy, I do believe we were over the boarder between French/Rhein boundaries.
It was like a ******* kindergarten on speed.
Eventually had enough, went on and said "Alright, that's about *. enough of that eyh?"
Got a reply indicating that I was some sort of feline, but thankfully it went all quiet after that.

I just don't see the point, people do the whole "Gu-aaaaa-aaaard" routine even when the first station clearly states "XYZ {airline} 1234 - to groundstation, ON GUARD, insert transmission"

That YouTube thing pointing this out, unfortunately, served as inspiration for some.

[airjersey]

Where is he.....................where is he................................where is he.................................where is he ...YOU'RE ON GUARD...........there he is.

:} love it.....!

However, I agree this people dislplay a mental age of 5...wonder how they actually pass airline interviews.....

[flash8]

wonder how they actually pass airline interviews.....

Really? Well... anybody can act serious, mature and tick the right boxes for as long as is 'required' and then in actuality behind the scenes (when nobody important is watching) behave with breathtaking immaturity. It's a game. Act mature because it is expected (and obligatory) until you can get away with it.. and then act like an ass. Ironically, and as has been mentioned, these are the sort of folk that can well up their game when required and show an equal amount of talent and are far from unintelligent.

[Sir George Cayley]

So keeping a listening watch on 121.5 is a requirement and plays a part in PLOC?

I've thumbed through a few docs but can't find the Standard. Is it in ICAO, EASA, CAA or another regulatory publication?

And PLOC. Has technology, apart from SELCAL on iOS, come up with a solution? What about our SOPS? If company deem it necessary to have 121.5 on "box 2" could they have something about Ops Normal after x mins of silence in an otherwise busy volume of airspace?

I've also tried to research MORs about losses of contact to see if a FACTOR pointed towards a problem other than HF with, so far, no evidence.

[PENKO]

Let it go. Just let it go. So someone makes an animal noise on 121.5. The worst thing that can happen is an English male voice lecturing all of us that 121.5 is an emergency frequency yada yada yada.. Just let it go sir, 99% of us know what guard means, you are just feeding the trolls and setting off an avalanche of 'you're on guard toooooo' messages. And yes, you are on guard too.

[Bealzebub]

So keeping a listening watch on 121.5 is a requirement and plays a part in PLOC?

I've thumbed through a few docs but can't find the Standard. Is it in ICAO, EASA, CAA or another regulatory publication?

https://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/default/files/news//content/documents/nm/safety/agc-action-plan.pdf

http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20SRWG2/SP03_ICAO%20Emergency%20frequency%20-%20rev.pdf

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Guarding_121.5_MHz

[maybepilot]

I am thinking about the mental state of the many 100s LoCo pilots who are paid by the hour and can't afford being sick.
Or how about those 100s pilots working through dodgy agencies that live and work in a social security and tax limbo and often even paying to fly?
Or I think about those english lever 8 folks who clear me for the localiser first and only after interception they clear me for the glide or start telling me about their "de-conflicting-un-controlled airspace service" stuff while I am descending through FL200 right over central UK with my heavy jet in IMC ; or about those who don't allow me to bring a yogurt to the same flight deck where I have a crash ax; or about those who can't wait to fine me if my hi-visibility jacket is undone during my walkaround just as I observe the LoCo pilot parked next to me standing in the rain with his headset on, supervising the refuelling leaving the other pilot alone on the flight deck with passengers onboard.

Suddenly a joke on 121.5 becomes almost a professional act when compared to where this industry is heading.

[wiggy]

So keeping a listening watch on 121.5 is a requirement and plays a part in PLOC?

Well it's a requirement in our Ops Manual that 121.5 should be guarded whenever practical, and shall be guarded in areas where interception is a possibility, so there's a few flying around who, yes, are are stuck with that as a requirement.

As far as Europe goes I guess it can now be said that interception has now been demonstrated as being a possibility over (at the very least) Hungary, France and the UK.

[Wageslave]

Is it beyond the wit of man (or the pockets of airlines) to develop a link to the transponder so that whenever 121.5 is keyed the transponder squawks accordingly? Shouldn't be too hard, surely?
That'll stop all but ground based and PPL nonsense.

Shy, you don't say "PAN PAN" across the cockpit for the very obvious reason that if you did have your finger on the tit as is all too possible you'd have just broadcast a real one, just as we used to say in the military before setting off practice emergencies, "For Exercise, ......".

A few well publicised prosecutions Europe wide would put an end to it too, I'd think.

[RHS]

I do have to say, that 90% of the stupidity I hear on Guard seems to be around the border between France and Germany, so interesting to hear that some of these transmissions aren't from pilots at all.

Heard some "where is he?....... Where is he?" antics on guard this morning, and couldn't help but think you sound like a complete moron, no doubt trying to impress your colleague.

Having said this, some of the children I went to flying school with, it would really not surprise me if they are the culprits.

[Superpilot]

Have heard this a couple times in recent months. One was a guy trying to tell operations that a passenger is going to miss the last connection of the day and needs to travel urgently. The response was something along the lines of we'll lay on a biz jet. To which the tyro responded by admitting he'd made a mistake and learned his lesson. Professionalism aside, it was a marvelous piece of education for the rookie who is obviously going to learn how to operate his radio better. And not a single soul perished that day!

[16024]

Plus 1 for Penko @ post #71.

Maybe the beardies can replace their sense of outrage with a sense of proportion.
And maybe the childish ones will stop when you stop going "On Guard!" like a stuck record when someone is trying to use the channel properly.
In 30 years I've never heard, or even heard of an occasion when a genuine emergency has been compromised by chatter, annoying though it may be.

...not a single soul perished that day!

[bugged on the right]

I have been guilty of calling the company on 121.5 but realised it very quickly by the lack of response. Usually when the other crew member changed frequency while I was not looking. Having heard the infantile transmissions along with some of the posts here I can only reinforce what Huck posted. Monkeys on the flight deck and other monkeys defending them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

As a UK based part time instructor...

(1) Practice Pan is a bloody useful tool for getting a student to take the exercise of making a mayday call or equivalent seriously, because they're suddenly talking to the big scarey outside world of aviation grown ups.

(2) UK D&D cell actively encourage its use, as it provides them with regular training and equipment testing.

(3) I know somebody who got badly lost, close to CAS, solo in an SEP, in marginal visibility. She called ATC, they asked her to change to 121.5, they vectored her to a known and safe location close to her destination. Throughout, the 2-way with D&D was being interrupted by Guard Police telling her and D&D cell off for being on guard!!!!

(4) Damned if I can see why anybody being actively controlled in national airspace needs to be monitoring guard either.

G

[Ian W]

It is extremely unprofessional to use an emergency frequency for chat, showing off, telling jokes etc.. It is like dialing 911 (999) for a laugh. Note that in UK FIRs/UIRs at least, your aircraft position is immediately shown by the autotriangulation systems. Perhaps if the aircraft involved in these silly games were charged triple route charges for that flight the giggling would cease, as the 'professionals' involved appear more concerned about facing beancounters than about the safety of their fellow aviators.

[recceguy]

One day in the middle of the ocean, I had to try to contact another aircraft, as a request from ATC.
So he might have been out of range of the ATC station, when we were still within.
I therefore tried first on this frequency - no answer. So I tried on Guard - and before I got any answer (which he gave by the way one minute later, on this frequency) some idiot started to bla-bla, with the grave accent they usually take in this case "You are on Guaaard "
so my answer came quickly " I'm on Guard, for good reasons, shut up please" and that was all !

[Uplinker]

Those who tell us to simply ignore the guard idiots obviously do not fly in Europe, or any other busy airspace. Twice today on a rotation to Rome, I missed calls from ATC because they were 'stepped on' by the audio from guard blotting out the audio from ATC.

In some places there is almost continuous chatter on Box 1 and if guard starts up it can be almost impossible to concentrate on either, so how do you ignore guard with it babbling into your ear?

So you turn guard down, or off just so you can concentrate on ATC. Why don't we simply turn it back on after a few mins? Well, because there is a psychological aspect to PLOC, and we don't always remember or notice that we have turned guard off. Meanwhile there is still chatter on box 1 so we think we are still in range with ATC.

This is why some sort of "121.5 NOT MONITORED" message would be useful, popping up after a couple of minutes.

The people who think it is amusing to make noises on guard, defy understanding. They have no respect, either for their profession or for anything else. If flying a modern jet bores them, then they have no right to be there. Also, by their actions they are tacitly demonstrating that they are not aware of what can go wrong. They have clearly never been in a bad situation: the sort where you suddenly think 'this could have a bad outcome'. If they had, they would respect the emergency channel.

The fact that folk can now get straight onto a modern jet after a few hundred hours total time, whereas previously we had to spend years flying aged turbo props and doing night mail runs etc. to earn our stripes does not help. Nor does the fact that some employers do not respect their staff and make them get up at 0300 five days in a row or work until 0200 and pay peanuts or don't pay them.

[ShyTorque]

Shy, you don't say "PAN PAN" across the cockpit for the very obvious reason that if you did have your finger on the tit as is all too possible you'd have just broadcast a real one, just as we used to say in the military before setting off practice emergencies, "For Exercise, ......".During my fifteen years or so as an RAF QHI and QFI I never had one student press the transmit switch by mistake in those circumstances.

Students tend to do what they have practiced. If they are only ever being taught to say "Practice Pan" without transmitting across the cockpit, chances are they would latterly say "Practice Pan" under real emergency conditions, when the pressure really exists.

Does the military still have 243.8 as an alternative to 243.0? It does seem logical to have an alternative VHF frequency for training purposes. However, as I've said before, if my concentration gets spoiled by chatter on 121.5, I just turn it off on the select switch then back on again after a minute or so, to check if it's quiet again.

So you turn guard down, or off just so you can concentrate on ATC. Why don't we simply turn it back on after a few mins? Well, because there is a psychological aspect to PLOC, and we don't always remember or notice that we have turned guard off.

For the forgetful ones among us, there are ways of reminding ourselves that something needs our attention.

[Uplinker]

Are you going to tell us? All ideas welcome.

[golfbananajam]

Uplinker
The fact that folk can now get straight onto a modern jet after a few hundred hours total time, whereas previously we had to spend years flying aged turbo props and doing night mail runs etc. to earn our stripes does not help. Nor does the fact that some employers do not respect their staff and make them get up at 0300 five days in a row or work until 0200 and pay peanuts or don't pay them

if you don't like it.............leave or better join the Army where they work much longer for much less and in much more dangerous situations

[Uplinker]

if you don't like it.............leave or better join the Army where they work much longer for much less and in much more dangerous situations

Excellent idea. Let's not worry about the declining standards and erosion of safety in our industry, let's just put up with it and let it happen :ok:

[Jetset 88]

I totally agree!

To some extent this reflects the culture we live in these days - discipline seems to be a thing of the past.

As in so many walks of life these days, it's not authoritarian imposed discipline that is required to prevent this abysmal behaviour but SELF -DISCIPLINE. Sadly this is usually learned by example, starting at home before heading out into the big, wide world. As another reader commented, what was the captain doing during this episode? Leading by example? - Not !

[Genghis the Engineer]

Those who tell us to simply ignore the guard idiots obviously do not fly in Europe, or any other busy airspace. Twice today on a rotation to Rome, I missed calls from ATC because they were 'stepped on' by the audio from guard blotting out the audio from ATC.

In some places there is almost continuous chatter on Box 1 and if guard starts up it can be almost impossible to concentrate on either, so how do you ignore guard with it babbling into your ear?

If it's not a daft question - you're in 2-way with ATC, you don't have a SAR role or triangulation equipment on board, other people are there within the FIR with the explicit role of monitoring guard.

So, why are you monitoring guard?

If it's company SOP - why has that not been challenged and changed on safety and workload grounds?

[ad-astra]

I can only add that it is not just the Northern Hemisphere that is inflicted with these fools.
In Australia we have more than our fair share of the worlds idiots as well who choose to broadcast proof of their professionalism or lack of it.

[Eric T Cartman]

@ ShyTorque
Students tend to do what they have practiced. If they are only ever being taught to say "Practice Pan" without transmitting across the cockpit, chances are they would latterly say "Practice Pan" under real emergency conditions, when the pressure really exists.

Spot on !!

Back in the 70's I was on Ground Movement Control at Glasgow when I suddenly heard "Practice Pan, c/s, simulated engine fire". Before I could respond, I heard "er - Pan pan pan, it's not simulated, it's real", the helicopter door slid open & numerous brown jobs ran in the general direction of away. QED ?

[IcePack]

Genghis because the number of times ATC fail to transfer you to the next frequency & pray tell what frequency is the interceptor going to contact you on. As said often the monitored ATC freq still seems OK as their is still tx going on all be it not from the sector you thought you were on. Golf bannajam you obviously have no idea of what is involved.

[RHS]

My company mandates monitoring guard in case of loss of comms. As the previous posts added this will be the frequency ATC will try to call you on when you go lost comms because they forgot to hand you over. On many frequencies around Europe, you wouldn't believe how quiet the frequencies can get, so you wouldn't even necessarily realise you have lost comms until you're out of range.

In the last few weeks I have also heard a pilot from my company provide assistance and give a relay to an out of comms RYR who hadn't been handed off in Spain, I have also heard a pilot providing assistance on guard to a light aircraft putting out a PAN, and providing a relay.

Guards purpose, and the monitoring of guard is imho an important part of the safety net.

[suninmyeyes]

While agreeing with the sentiments as regards the idiots who abuse 121.5 I have to admit the following made me smile at about 3 am on the atlantic a few months ago:


Anonymous voice on 121.5 "What did d'Artagnan say to the third musketeer?"


There was a 2 second pause before a clearly irritated American accented voice fell into the trap and replied "ON GUARD".

[RHS]

Ok Suninmyeyes, everyone who makes a mockery of 121.5 should have their license revoked, except that guy, because that is brilliant. ::D

[ShyTorque]

Are you going to tell us? All ideas welcome.
Surely, it's not beyond your own intelligence and imagination to think of something relevant to your operation? Put on the wander light, move something into your eye-line? Tell the other pilot so he can remind you? Put a post-it note on his forehead saying "121.5"? Actually look at the radio switches every now and again?

Or, as my old Granny would have said - tie a knot in your hankie...

[Uplinker]

Why the attitude? No need for that. All ideas welcome.

[Juan Tugoh]

The 737 had the egg timer for those little reminders - fantastic bit of kit. Most of us now have a smart phone of some sort - use the FOs timer function to give you a 5 minute reminder when you turn down guard.

[Tourist]

Anonymous voice on 121.5 "What did d'Artagnan say to the third musketeer?"


There was a 2 second pause before a clearly irritated American accented voice fell into the trap and replied "ON GUARD".


That is genuinely brilliant.

[ShyTorque]

To which one should reply "Touché!"

[ShyTorque]

Uplinker, no 'attitude' here. However, I am more than a little surprised that some pilots seem unable to think for themselves and unable to cope with something that isn't on one of their company checklists.

[Superpilot]

That VHF2 knob is part of my instrument scan, if I've been irritated by something on 121.5 and end up turning it off, it'll be back on between a minute or two.

Just like that.

[Chesty Morgan]

Uplinker, no 'attitude' here. However, I am more than a little surprised that some pilots seem unable to think for themselves and unable to cope with something that isn't on one of their company checklists.
Sign of the times.

[PENKO]

The distractions on the guard frequency are usually genuine urgency calls. As professional pilots we should know how to deal with this. Whenever I feel distracted by calls on 121.5 I turn the frequency down low enough so not to disturb my active ATC frequency, but high enough for me to notice that someone is calling me should all go a bit quiet. Usually the volume will be back at a normal level well before that anyway.

Like many I cannot comprehend why someone would want to make animal noises on 121.5 but I think we all know more or less where this behavior comes from geographically. As I stated earlier, just ignore it. Don't feed the troll. You can't tell a pig not to roll in its own :mad:

As for the practice PANs, well, you just cannot complain about distractions and endorse practice PANs in the same topic :)

[fireflybob]

Uplinker, no 'attitude' here. However, I am more than a little surprised that some pilots seem unable to think for themselves and unable to cope with something that isn't on one of their company checklists.

So true! Doing "things right" = management, doing "the right thing" = leadership.

[EatMyShorts!]

At some point, a few even interjected by a humming rendition of Piero Umiliani's Mah Na Mah Na which caused even more "humorous" outbursts, catcalls etc... WTF?LOL thanks. Song downloaded now and ready for playback! En Garde!!

[Airbubba]

Anonymous voice on 121.5 "What did d'Artagnan say to the third musketeer?"


There was a 2 second pause before a clearly irritated American accented voice fell into the trap and replied "ON GUARD".

That American probably went to some trade school in Daytona where they don't teach the works of Alexander Dumbass. ;)

[Magnetic Iron]

The annoying for me is when these jokers start their babble and childish games. I switch off 121.5 temporarily so I can listen properly to the frequency, if it is busy. ( Yes, you should not. ) The problem is if you forget to put 121.5 back on right away. Does this affect safety? yup. We do not need authorities to police us more but
politeness and manners. It is a question of airmanship and why do so many pilots step on each other more and more on the radio? Less gentleman out there it seems. It is poor airmanship.

[SilsoeSid]

Isn't this thread totally oxymoronic?

I can't believe that those complaining so much about the 'morons on 121.5', keep quiet when one of those 'morons' chirps up on the air, simply because they have so much to say here.

Some great points as always by the likes of Shytorque & Ghengis, yet right on cue the vampiric complainers aim straight for the jugular, resulting in those points being ignored :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

My company mandates monitoring guard in case of loss of comms. As the previous posts added this will be the frequency ATC will try to call you on when you go lost comms because they forgot to hand you over. On many frequencies around Europe, you wouldn't believe how quiet the frequencies can get, so you wouldn't even necessarily realise you have lost comms until you're out of range.

ATC may well have forgotten to hand you over, but isn't there a point at which you should be thinking to yourself, "I need to be changing frequency around here?"

[fireflybob]

ATC may well have forgotten to hand you over, but isn't there a point at which you should be thinking to yourself, "I need to be changing frequency around here?"

Absolutely! Since the advent of FMC and EFIS and relying on these items rather than looking at charts the level of situational awareness has decreased. In the days when we didn't have such devices we were very aware of FIR boundaries and sector change over points. Whilst I would agree there is more sectorisation these days it surely wouldn't be beyond the wit of the software guys to portray FIR boundaries on the EFIS ND.

A few years ago I a got the high level chart covering the Bay of Biscay area out and my FO wasn't even aware that enroute Comms frequencies were on the chart - sometimes useful if you lose comms with ATC.

Has any in depth research been conducted to find out why and where loss of comms takes place? Are there certain geographical points where this is more likely to happen (rather like hotspots shown on charts for runway incursions). Are some radio fits more disposed to loss of comms by inadvertently turning the volume down? Do pilots know how to verify correct receiver operation (e.g. by momentarily lifting the squelch control).

[SilsoeSid]

Do pilots know how to verify correct receiver operation (e.g. by momentarily lifting the squelch control).

Exactly, and in addition, do they also know that at 'extended ranges' when comms might normally be considered 'lost', that you can turn up the squelch and hear transmissions that would normally go unheard through the noise?

[Airbubba]

The radios that I've used in recent years don't have a squelch control or squelch override button.

And I never knew that some planes had a locking transmit switch on the yoke/joystick until I read about it here on PPRuNe.

[RHS]

Silsoesid, in short. There is no squelch on the aircraft I fly. So despite being one of those spiky haired iCadets everyone hates so much, yes I do know from a previous type how to use squelch, unfortunately I cannot. Yes I'm annoyed by it too.

Flying over France, where the boundaries are often miles apart, if VHF1 fails, then my only cue could perhaps be when the pleasant Paris controllers contact me on VHF2 Guard. So yes, I do have a general awareness of crossing FIRs and when I should expect a handover, but what about in between?

[Willit Run]

On the 747-400 there is no squelch button or knob, but if you press and hold down the , i.e. VHF 1 button for a second or two, you get the squelch function. Ergo, can now listen a little further away than you normally would.

As for the morons that yap away on guard, I will have no sympathy for them if someday they find themselves in need of assistance and find none.

If you want to yap, use 123.45. Stay off of guard unless you truly need it.
I really wish the Brits would have a dedicated practice frequency. The volume is practically turned off all the way across England. England is by far the worst area in the world for un-necessary noise on guard.

[SilsoeSid]

Flying over France, where the boundaries are often miles apart, if VHF1 fails, then my only cue could perhaps be when the pleasant Paris controllers contact me on VHF2 Guard. So yes, I do have a general awareness of crossing FIRs and when I should expect a handover, but what about in between?

I think an unknown radio failure is slightly different than knowingly running out of radio range and taking no action yourself :rolleyes:

As you are so situationally aware, wouldn't it be better when you are at the 'expected point' to give a call to say you are changing frequency? Surely you don't leave everything for ATC to do for you :suspect:

Better to have dialled up an ATCU you are flying towards, than one you are out of range of and flying away from :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

The radios that I've used in recent years don't have a squelch control or squelch override button.

Silsoesid, in short. There is no squelch on the aircraft I fly. So despite being one of those spiky haired iCadets everyone hates so much, yes I do know from a previous type how to use squelch, unfortunately I cannot.


Airbubba & RHS, if you don't mind me asking, which radios do you use?

[ShyTorque]

I really wish the Brits would have a dedicated practice frequency. The volume is practically turned off all the way across England. England is by far the worst area in the world for un-necessary noise on guard.

I'd agree about the practice frequency but 123.45 is allocated elsewhere, as per the CAA memo (FODCOM) issued some time ago.

However, I'm repeating myself but speaking as a UK based ATPL holder, the majority of "incorrect" calls I hear on 121.5 in lower airspace come from airline pilots who incompetently select the incorrect frequency and seem to think they are speaking to a handling agency. I heard three such calls in a one hour trip over central UK earlier this week - so whatever happened to the basic principles of proper r/t use? It's certainly more common to hear this type of inadvertent call these days, rather than (fully legal, authorised and correct) "practice pan" calls that some airline pilots themselves get so upset about.

Is there something difficult about modern airliner radio boxes which makes incorrect selections more likely, or is it a training issue?

[Mikehotel152]

England is by far the worst area in the world for un-necessary noise on guard.

Absolutely untrue. Aside from the occasional practice pan, it is quiet. The cat-calling and childish behaviour is almost always in French airspace.

Since the advent of FMC and EFIS and relying on these items rather than looking at charts the level of situational awareness has decreased

In my much derided airline we have numerous procedures to guard against PLOC. For instance, our PLOGs clearly delineate FIRs and it is SOP to note boundaries in the FMC so as to provide reminders. But, yes, paper charts are so rarely referenced that many newbies are unaware of the wealth of information therein.

Are there certain geographical points where this is more likely to happen

That's a good question. Again, in my airline, we have been provided with charts showing where PLOC has occurred over the preceding years. The key hotspot is the boundary between Rhine and Maastricht airspace in western Germany. Another is between Bordeaux and Madrid in the Biscay. I'm sure there are many.

[Fly4Business]

Is there something difficult about modern airliner radio boxes which makes incorrect selections more likely, or is it a training issue?
Part of it is definitely joking-in of greenhorns, cant count how many times I heard colleagues chat about the "call company on 121dot5 to the newbie" joke ... just ignore it, it IS infantile and more common in specific geos of the world then others.

[Ian W]

I think an unknown radio failure is slightly different than knowingly running out of radio range and taking no action yourself :rolleyes:

As you are so situationally aware, wouldn't it be better when you are at the 'expected point' to give a call to say you are changing frequency? Surely you don't leave everything for ATC to do for you :suspect:

Better to have dialled up an ATCU you are flying towards, than one you are out of range of and flying away from :ok:

This may not be a good idea and could even make matters worse. It may be that you have just been transferred to a control sector on a different frequency to the one you have just disappeared to. So the handing over controller you were with calls you and you do not respond. The frequency you have popped up on unannounced will try to work out what you are and who you are and why you are calling them and may have no idea where you should really go. Sectors are often 'bandboxed' together when traffic permits and may use different frequencies to those published. It's a lot simpler to just give a 'check call' to your current controller.
When/if CPDLC comes into full usage a lot of these problems will disappear as your CPDLC connection can be automatically transferred to the next 'data authority' - your next controller, without you needing to touch anything.

[ShyTorque]

Fly4, please tell what that particular "joke" is? I've never heard it.

Are some captains deliberately instructing inexperienced co-pilots to call "Ground Ops" on 121.5? I find that very hard to believe, surely no professional pilot would be so stupid to incite someone else to do it, or get caught out by it - everyone does the air law exam before first solo!

I would also hope that by the time any properly trained pilot gets to CPL level they would have been taught to check their radio switches before transmitting. Maybe this isn't being emphasised enough, hence my question.

[SilsoeSid]

IanW;As you are so situationally aware, wouldn't it be better when you are at the 'expected point' to give a call to say you are changing frequency?

This may not be a good idea and could even make matters worse. It may be that you have just been transferred to a control sector on a different frequency to the one you have just disappeared to. So the handing over controller you were with calls you and you do not respond. The frequency you have popped up on unannounced will try to work out what you are and who you are and why you are calling them and may have no idea where you should really go. Sectors are often 'bandboxed' together when traffic permits and may use different frequencies to those published. It's a lot simpler to just give a 'check call' to your current controller.

It's a lot simpler to just give a 'check call' to your current controller.
Isn't that just what I have said?

The frequency you have popped up on unannounced will try to work out what you are and who you are and why you are calling them and may have no idea where you should really go.

When you free call an ATCU, I would love you to tell us what your call consists of. For most of us it would be an initial call to establish comms e.g.
*
G-XXXX, "Nice control good afternoon this is G-XXXX"
Then you could expect;
Nice Control, "Good afternoon G-XXXX pass your details"
To which you would reply;
G-XXXX, (What you are, who you are, flight details, requests etc)
At which point ATC will take care of you, happy days.


Please tell us your version of how you see the conversation :hmm:


So you've reached the point where you think you are just about out of range from your initial controller. You call to say that you're going to change en route. There are two possible results;

1. You get a reply
2. you get no reply

In the case of 1, possible outcomes are;

a. ATC hand you over
b. ATC inform you they are about to hand you over
c. ATC tell you to free call on xxx.yy

In the case of a or b, all well unless b in the next few minutes turns into 2
In the case of c, see z

In the case of 2, possible actions are;

w. Try in vain to establish comms with the initial controller
x. Do nothing and await a call on 121.5
y. Do nothing and expect an interception
z. Free call your next planned frequency

In the case of w, at what point do you move to z?

In the case of z, possible outcomes are;

m. No reply
n. Reply and they are expecting you
o. Reply and they aren't expecting you

In the case of m, wait until you are 'in range'
In the case of m (in range), try an alternative freq or adopt lost comms drill
In the case of n, all well
In the case of o, why aren't they expecting you? (flight plan)
Regardless if the controller is expecting you or not, they will handle you and therefore please refer to *


Simples :ok:

[student88]

I agree with Penko - just ignore these morons. The silence after they make a stupid noise will fill them with much more embarrassment than anyone could with words.

[RHS]

Silsoesid,

By situationally aware, I mean I have a general idea that I am within French Airspace, somewhere near Paris so I'm probably talking to Paris, and then when I climb out of London toward France, through 280 I have that moronic 30 second exchange before I go in to Brest airspace for higher.

However, you still haven't answered how monitoring VHF2 is not a line of defence against a VHF1 failure? Just saying "that's a different case" doesn't cover it.

[SilsoeSid]

I haven't said don't monitor 121.5 if that's what you do.

What I have said is that having a box failure and not knowing about until you are called on 121.5 or intercepted; is a different case to allowing yourself to (regularly) run out of radio range of your current ATCU while on a regular route.

The first is out of your control, the second, is simply poor airmanship.

[A Squared]

Sorry, I'm going to call BS on this. You aren't always on a "regular route", depending on your type of operation it's entirely possible that you're on a route that neither you nor your fellow pilot have flown before. For me, it happens more often than not, but that's the nature of operations at my particular employer. I am very pro-active about having enroute charts out, reading the frequency information and generally trying to stay ahead of the game. But the reality is that the Jeppesen high altitude charts do a relatively poor job of depicting what frequencies cover what areas and when you might expect a frequency change, at least within a single FIR. There's usually enough information to determine what frequency to expect crossing a FIR boundary. I fly plenty of places where if you aren't familiar with the route, there is simply no way to predict when you'll be out of range of your current frequency, or what the next one might be.

[Ian W]

SiloeSid

It appears that you are confusing free calling flying low level where free calling a general frequency is not uncommon with flying high level in IFR where you are under mandatory control. Just dropping off a controller's frequency and onto another is not an IFR procedure. If a pilot is concerned that it is time for handoff then by all means call the current controller and just ask when can we expect handoff to [name of next agency] it might annoy the controller but should get a response. If the pilot feels that radio contact has been lost as it has all gone quiet and nobody replies then that is what 121.5 is actually for. As you are in mandatory IFR airspace and you may be in conflict with other aircraft it would also be an idea to squawk 7600. To get out-of-range of a control frequency is quite difficult at high level unless you have flown a considerable distance and not bothered to maintain situational awareness, which appears to be the case with the BA aircraft in this post. All frequencies have multiple transmitter stations and can be expected to provide cover tens of miles beyond the sector boundaries.

You should also remember that there is a standard handover/assume procedure between all sectors. The receiving sector can see an aircraft coming toward the sector airspace with a datablock that tells the controller all the pertinent details about the flight. A sector controller will not sit there quiet while a flight under the control of the 'upstream' sector bores into the sector airspace. The controllers will be talking between each other about the flight trying to work out why it is not responding and being handed over. Do not assume that just because nothing is transmitted on radio there are no discussions taking place. The normal handoffs are silent using the computer systems to transfer 'control authority' over the aircraft. If in the middle of this process you waltz off to a different frequency the controllers will not be best pleased especially if there is some deconfliction to do immediately you are assumed by the next controller. Delay could easily be due to a lot of coordination of other traffic not on your frequency.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYYHR_G7Res

Do not confuse low level VFR procedures with high level procedures in mandatory IFR airspace. :=

[SilsoeSid]

Isn't that what I was saying?

Just dropping off a controller's frequency and onto another is not an IFR procedure. If a pilot is concerned that it is time for handoff then by all means call the current controller and just ask when can we expect handoff to [name of next agency] it might annoy the controller but should get a response.

"So you've reached the point where you think you are just about out of range from your initial controller. You call to say that you're going to change en route."

If the pilot feels that radio contact has been lost as it has all gone quiet and nobody replies then that is what 121.5 is actually for. As you are in mandatory IFR airspace and you may be in conflict with other aircraft it would also be an idea to squawk 7600.

"In the case of 2, possible actions are;

w. Try in vain to establish comms with the initial controller
x. Do nothing and await a call on 121.5
y. Do nothing and expect an interception
z. Free call your next planned frequency"

To get out-of-range of a control frequency is quite difficult at high level unless you have flown a considerable distance and not bothered to maintain situational awareness, which appears to be the case with the BA aircraft in this post. All frequencies have multiple transmitter stations and can be expected to provide cover tens of miles beyond the sector boundaries.

"What I have said is that having a box failure and not knowing about until you are called on 121.5 or intercepted; is a different case to allowing yourself to run out of radio range of your current ATCU

The first is out of your control, the second, is simply poor airmanship."


:hmm:


I especially like IanW's latest;

Earlier he said;
"The frequency you have popped up on unannounced will try to work out what you are and who you are and why you are calling them and may have no idea where you should really go."

However in his latest post he tells us;
"You should also remember that there is a standard handover/assume procedure between all sectors. The receiving sector can see an aircraft coming toward the sector airspace with a datablock that tells the controller all the pertinent details about the flight. A sector controller will not sit there quiet while a flight under the control of the 'upstream' sector bores into the sector airspace. The controllers will be talking between each other about the flight trying to work out why it is not responding and being handed over."

So which is it? :roll eyes:



Don't forget, it is others that have said such classics as;

"There is simply no way to predict when you'll be out of range of your current frequency, or what the next one might be."
:eek:

[A Squared]

Don't forget, it is others that have said such classics as;

"There is simply no way to predict when you'll be out of range of your current frequency, or what the next one might be."
:eek:

Wouldn’t it be a little more honest of you to quote the entirety of my remark, instead of only selecting one part in order to mirepresent it?

Trick question, of course that would have been be more honest.

What I actually said was: I fly plenty of places where if you aren't familiar with the route, there is simply no way to predict when you'll be out of range of your current frequency, or what the next one might be.

And this is true, If you haven't flown in a place like this, I can assure you that they do exist.

[Chesty Morgan]

We all know how to calculate max theoretical range of VHF radios. What we don't know is where the bloody transmitter is.

Frequency changes aren't always at the end of that range. Are they? (rhetorical)

[shaftsburn]

You should also remember that there is a standard handover/assume procedure between all sectors.

Not all sectors, even if you are high level in IFR. In many parts of the world, you are expected to free call. I remember once hearing ATC getting hot tempered with a speedbird because they hadn't free called in advance, had no clearance to enter the FIR, and were very close to being intercepted.

Even if it's the next controller in the same FIR, you can sometimes expect to have to pass your full flight details.

In one region there is airspace covering about 60nm where you aren't within VHF range of any controller at all, with an FIR boundary in the middle of it. I once asked if my details can be passed on. The chap said that his phone hasn't worked for years. He didn't have a correct onward frequency, and the charted frequencies were useless. Guard was often used as the first contact with the next controller.

Then there's Northern Cyprus. There's no chance of an appropriate hand over. Guard is often used by "both sides" to get in touch with flights who aren't juggling the frequencies correctly / didn't do their homework.

[SilsoeSid]

What I actually said was:
Quote:
I fly plenty of places where if you aren't familiar with the route, there is simply no way to predict when you'll be out of range of your current frequency, or what the next one might be.

In that case only one phrase springs to mind;

'Prior planning prevents.......' you know the rest.

Best keep monitoring 121.5 :ok:

[Ian W]

I especially like IanW's latest;

Earlier he said;
"The frequency you have popped up on unannounced will try to work out what you are and who you are and why you are calling them and may have no idea where you should really go."

However in his latest post he tells us;
"You should also remember that there is a standard handover/assume procedure between all sectors. The receiving sector can see an aircraft coming toward the sector airspace with a datablock that tells the controller all the pertinent details about the flight. A sector controller will not sit there quiet while a flight under the control of the 'upstream' sector bores into the sector airspace. The controllers will be talking between each other about the flight trying to work out why it is not responding and being handed over."

So which is it? :roll eyes:



You are not paying attention.

You are just at the boundary of the active sector - Sector 14
Sector 14 is in the process of trying to hand you to Sector 20

You get clever and call sector 9's frequency as that is what you think may be next.

So you manage to give problems to 3 ATC sectors. Not so clever.

[SilsoeSid]

They may well be in the process of handing you over, but what do you do if you don't hear Sector 14 telling you to change onto Sector 20's freq?

Without doing a thing, you'll be giving problems to those 2 ATC Sectors, who may be contacting many other Sector controllers to find out if you are in contact with them, a few military ATCU's and at least 2 Air Force fighter crews.

Now that is even not so cleverer :rolleyes:


I say again, best keep monitoring 121.5 :ok:

[RHS]

I haven't said don't monitor 121.5 if that's what you do.

What I have said is that having a box failure and not knowing about until you are called on 121.5 or intercepted; is a different case to allowing yourself to (regularly) run out of radio range of your current ATCU while on a regular route.

The first is out of your control, the second, is simply poor airmanship.

Without meaning to be disrespectful in any way, judging by your bio, you have absolutely minimal knowledge of airline operations, and much of what you suggest is ridiculous to anyone with knowledge of such operations.

What I quite rightly said, is monitoring VHF 2 is a line of defence against a VHF1 failure. That is good airmanship.

If my box 1 fails, instead of every 3 minutes when I haven't heard a call (common over for instance the North Sea) asking for a radio check, if ATC can't make contact with me, for instance for a heading change, they will call a few times and then make a call on guard, something I will immediately hear, and very shortly after diagnose a VHF 1 failure.

Of course, operating on a London Freuency I wouldn't expect a 3/4 minute lull, and would be checking the box is working.

[SilsoeSid]

What I quite rightly said, is monitoring VHF 2 is a line of defence against a VHF1 failure. That is good airmanship.

If my box 1 fails, instead of every 3 minutes when I haven't heard a call (common over for instance the North Sea) asking for a radio check, if ATC can't make contact with me, for instance for a heading change, they will call a few times and then make a call on guard, something I will immediately hear, and very shortly after diagnose a VHF 1 failure.

All well and good, but what if it's your VHF 2 that has failed?

When would you instigate the call that you've said that you wouldn't make?

[RHS]

All well and good, but what if it's your VHF 2 that has failed?

When would you instigate the call that you've said that you wouldn't make?

Well because I'm a professional pilot, if there were absolutely 0 calls for an extended period, and box two was completely free of animal calls and pilots telling ops their landing times, I would get a radio check. If that didn't come back, I'd 7600, order a tea, and continue enroute.

No doubt you'll now tell me that I should always carry 2 sat phones and 2 copies of every ATC unit in the worlds number. Proper planning and all that lark.

[SilsoeSid]

Well because I'm a professional pilot, if there were absolutely 0 calls for an extended period, and box two was completely free of animal calls and pilots telling ops their landing times, I would get a radio check. If that didn't come back, I'd 7600, order a tea, and continue enroute.


So you'd sit here with a perfectly serviceable radio, keep it on a redundant frequency, squawk 7600 and continue with your flight plan with no idea of any frequency to change onto that would help everyone in any airspace you will be passing through!

In all this discussion so far you have told us that you are situationally aware and a professional pilot ..... !


No doubt you'll now tell me that I should always carry 2 sat phones and 2 copies of every ATC unit in the worlds number. Proper planning and all that lark.
You now sound just like one of those morons on 121.5 :rolleyes:

[Stupidbutsaveable]

Sid
You could pick a fight with your own shadow. Boring shift?

[RHS]

It would seem so.

Sid, I'm bored of you looking for a slinging match, and can only imagine the esteem your colleagues hold you in!

As for me being a Moron, my old man used to forewarn me as a kid, "better to stay silent and look a fool, than open your mouth and prove it to everyone".

Words to take heed of perhaps?

[Aluminium shuffler]

SilsoeSid, evidently you have never flown outside of first world countries. You try maintaining VHF contact over the bulk of Africa, India, Mandalay or the oceanic airspace near those countries... It's easy to criticise when you have no experience or professional knowledge of how things really work, only a text book.

[RTO]

First ban practice pans and location fixes, then we can talk. This retarded British idea makes it ok to block an emergency frequency, but a bit of ridicule to make pilots check their box2 prior to transmitting is not?

[Al E. Vator]

Why does the UK allow these practice 121.5 calls? Why not say use 123.45 or a dedicated frequency?

Here in Asia the idiots brigade use it as a chat frequency. Additionally the Japanese and Chinese are using it endlessly to berate anybody coming near their self-created willy-waving ADIZ's.

I've lost count of the number of times I've missed a tower/approach transmission because it's been blocked by some buffoon chatting to his mate on VHF2 121.5.

Net result is a useful safety tool being rendered nearly useless as I need to turn 121.5 down or off.

So whilst those "on guard" team may be equally as annoying sometimes I understand their motives. Other than an ill-advised saying outright "you inconsiderate idiot shut-up" how else do you illustrate to your 'peers' that they are doing something that negatively affects their colleagues and general safety?

[PENKO]

There will always be that 2% of outright idiots in any demographic. Pilots are not immune to this and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. In the cruise you are within range of 200/300 aircraft at any time. It is inevitable that once in a while one of those 4/6 idiots is going to do something immature on 121.5

I have said it once, twice, and I'll say it once again: let them be. They know very well that they are on guard, they want you to say 'on guaarrrrrd', it is a small victory for them to be able to reply 'you tooooo', and you really make their day if you start ranting about guard being an international emergency frequency.

Just turn down the volume.

[billyt]

Al E Vator why would you monitor 121.5 when in the terminal area?

[clamchowder]

Last week was the worst I've ever heard entering London. 121.5 has 2/3 idiots competing who could play the more ridiculous music over freq for about 5 minutes.
I then heard a transmission for Norwegian on London freq and they responded to it on guard. Someone else replies "Gotcha"... silence... I guess that'll have to do for justice.
My theory is that it doesn't happen when there are 2 idiots in the flight deck, just one when the other person goes for a piddle.

[A and C]

Over the UK the problem is not the use of 121.5 for training it is those who abuse the system with stupid noises and music.

I can forgive those who don't understand the UK D&D system from their " you are on guard " reaction but to play music or make stupid noises.............. What has this profession come to ?

[CaptainMongo]

This is a problem which is only getting worse in the US.

I comment to my co-pilot when it happens:

"There is no Captain nor adult in that cockpit."

[cappt]

This problem has crept over to the Eastern half of the U.S. as well, it has really become noticeable in the last two years. Someone also thinks it funny or cute to play their Islamic call to pray music for steady 2-3 min transmit, whats up with that?
The West half is still silent except for the occasional Delta call to ops.
I just turn it off approaching the Mississippi.

[Out Of Trim]

Al E. Vator

Why does the UK allow these practice 121.5 calls? Why not say use 123.45 or a dedicated frequency?


If you had read the thread properly; you would have realised that 121.5 MHz is the UK dedicated frequency on VHF. Covered by Autotriangulation equipment. ( Radio Direction Finding Equipment )

Other VHF frequencies are not covered by this National System.

This has been the case in the UK for many years and remains so!

Most misuse of the frequency is down to so-called professional pilots not checking what frequency they are about to transmit on or those making childish animal noises etc.

Be advised, if you are in UK airspace you can instantly be identified and should be fined for misuse of the frequency.

[Ian W]

i must admit that in the years that I worked in D&D funny noises on 121.5 were not a problem. If I was there today with the current systems my response to funny noises etc would be "{callsign} this is {centre} distress and diversion, your position is{lat/Long} what is your emergency?" as they will realize that the callsign was us identifying them so they were no longer anonymous, I would expect them to go quiet.

What is not realized by the morons is that they may think its quiet and a really good time to play silly games but D&D has receivers spread all around the FIR and may be handling a MAYDAY that they cannot hear. But D&D can hear the morons and the emergency aircraft that really needs assistance. I am not sure what legal action for recompense would be taken against a 'making silly noises pilot' who caused the response of D&D to a real emergency to be thwarted, but I am sure the legal representatives of the dead would take some action. Remember that in UK at least morons are not anonymous the autotriangulation is very fast and accurate.

I am not overstating things - I was involved in a rescue where a downed aircraft alert was due to someone hearing intermittent ELT on 121.5 luckily the frequency was not blocked by giggling 'cruise' pilots.

[A Squared]

If I was there today with the current systems my response to funny noises etc would be "{callsign} this is {centre} distress and diversion, your position is{lat/Long} what is your emergency?" as they will realize that the callsign was us identifying them so they were no longer anonymous, I would expect them to go quiet.

Sure, that's an outstanding plan *if* you know the call sign of the aircraft transmitting the pig noises on guard. That's a pretty big "if". I don't think it's very common for the pig noise brigade to identify themselves with a callsign. Like the (very) old joke goes: "I said I was effing bored, I didn't say I was effing stupid."

[Out Of Trim]

That is the point we are trying to get across...

There is no if, there is no doubt! These pilots incriminate themselves, as when they transmit; instantly lines shoot out across the radar display from all of the receivers in range and cross the transmitting aircraft contact on the display. Your aircraft squawk reveals your aircraft registration etc. These radar displays are recorded and could be used in evidence for prosecution.

In other words you can be caught red handed!

[A Squared]

So how does that work exactly, with a 1200 squawk and a plane that is not currently talking to ATC?

[zkdli]

for those in the uk who wonder how an ATCO can identify an aircraft, it is easy if the aircraft is Mode S TXPDR equipped and it is switched on! D & D is able to use the Mode S downlinked data for just this task,,,

[Al E. Vator]

billyt - Al E Vator why would you monitor 121.5 when in the terminal area? It's saved my butt a couple of times. Whilst on approach freq, F/O has miss-switched VHF1 to Tower or Ground (having meant to preselect it as the next frequency) and Approach ended-up calling us on 121.5. Very good backup rendered increasingly useless by buffoons chatting about rubbish and blocking 121.5. It's worse if there is a genuine PAN or MAYDAY call blocked by the idiot brigade (who by the way don't include inadvertent calls to company frequency - we've all done that and the odd "on guard" retort hasn't been interpreted by me as offensive at all).

Out of Trim - If you had read the thread properly; you would have realised that 121.5 MHz is the UK dedicated frequency on VHF. Covered by Autotriangulation equipment. ( Radio Direction Finding Equipment ). That's my point mate - get another frequency that performs the same function. 121.5 is for genuine emergencies and is being rendered useless. Going into LHR or MAN, I just have to turn 121.5 off which is a real shame.

[Cows getting bigger]

It works using DF. As already explained, a number of ground stations pick-up the transmission and triangulate the results, overlay on a radar screen, which offend results in a clear match between radar return (together with al the Mode A/C/S stuff) and triangulated position.

[Ian W]

So how does that work exactly, with a 1200 squawk and a plane that is not currently talking to ATC?

As zkdli has said if you have a modern secondary radar fit with Mode S you will be squawking the equivalent of your airframe number - like a MAC Address - in response to every interrogation. ATC knows who you are.

In the UK if you start playing on a distress frequency auto-triangulation (often now called multi-lateration) will link to your secondary and primary radar position. It is completely routine action for the D&D controllers to identify aircraft on radar that have just transmitted on VHF or UHF guard. There may not be many transmissions from an aircraft with an emergency so immediately pinpointing where they are from their transmissions is essential.

So if you start making funny noises you are easily identified and your equipment is helpfully broadcasting your Mode S identity from which your airframe number and registration can be obtained. Of course if you are IFR and working with an assigned SSR code then it is all that much easier your surveillance track will have a label that tells everyone who you are and where you are going at what speed and level and of course who your current controller is. The D&D controller can contact your current controller and ask that you be told to desist.

Big brother is watching you.

[fireflybob]

You need the appropriate licence to operate an aircraft. If you break certain rules Authorities can suspend the privileges of a licence pending remedial training and qualification.

You need an RT licence to operate a radio in an aircraft. I suggest the Authorities do likewise to blatant offenders on 121.5 MHz.

[ShyTorque]

Maybe the UK authority could require professional offenders to be banned from the FIR, in conjunction with the relevant national one. That would make their eyes water.

[A Squared]

As zkdli has said if you have a modern secondary radar fit with Mode S you will be squawking the equivalent of your airframe number -


Right, I know what Mode S is and what it does. I also know that there's plenty of planes without mode S. So again, someone starts making pig noises and it seems to be coming from an area with a couple of non-mode S 1200 squawks, none of which are talking to ATC, what call sign do you call out?

[Ian W]

If you had really caused some incident the 'tapes would be pulled' i.e. the analysis recordings for the system would be impounded. Then someone would follow your 1200 squawk back to its origin. With origin and time from most airports you would be identified. Of course you would continue to be tracked and point of landing (if possible) identified.

Problem is you may think your rendering of a dyspeptic moose is particularly jovial - but the emergency controller who is trying to deal with an emergency somewhere else in the FIR that you cannot hear as the emergency aircraft is out of LOS, may get particularly miffed.

[Willit Run]

The UK needs to find another dedicated frequency for practice DF steers.
The immature fart noise makers need to grow up.
Couple that with the accidental in range calls.
The occasional real emergency or PAN PAN
The fairly common mis handled frequency change/fly out of range issue
Air to air congestion compared to air to ground traffic.
And of course, the gossip mongers about the new bar to meet up in.

All these seem fairly minute separately , but when coupled all together, 121.5 is basically useless in the UK because most everyone has it turned down so they can monitor the active ATC frequency. I pity the poor soul that truly needs some help and can't raise anyone because everybody else has it turned down.
There are so many countries and operation departments within VHF range, that enough honest mistakes tacked upon all the unprofessional antics makes 121.5 not what it should be. Those that take this issue lightly need to sit back and reflect on this issue for a while.
It's not just the UK, but any HIGH traffic area in the world suffers from the same ailments. To me, the UK does seem to be the worst.
For the record, I spend less than 2% of my time flying in the USA.

[anson harris]

because most everyone has it turned down so they can monitor the active ATC frequency

I think it's just you. Never turned it down or off myself, nor do any of my colleagues.

[Al E. Vator]

No it's not just him - it's me too and so do many of my colleagues. They have no choice.
121.5 is becoming useless.

[fireflybob]

If 121.5 is becoming "useless" then people should be filing occurrence reports to that effect - a few hundred of those going to the Authority might prompt some action. It's unlikely that complaining on here will make much difference.

[mikk_13]

We were monitoring guard while an lost com intercept was happening.

The intercept aircraft were calling the aircraft on guard and when they finally answered some one with an English accent told the crew they were broadcasting on guard.

The military kindly told the english chap that he was performing an intercept and to basically 'shut the duck up.'

Was a good night had by all

[RAT 5]

The intercept aircraft were calling the aircraft on guard and when they finally answered some one with an English accent told the crew they were broadcasting on guard.

Isn't that exactly what 'Guard' is for? Don't some muppet pilots realise that? Obviously not. Reflecting on my career I do not remember ever being told the full use & etiquette of Guard. It was something I just picked up over time. However, it was a mixture of diverse opinions. Asking cadets what they knew about guard and the reply was it was an SOP to monitor it in case of losing ATC comms. That was it in their knowledge. It seems it was never in their airline training syllabus. Hence, perhaps, some of these ignorant, "you're on guard" responses.

[anengineer]

It's surely time to move away from the archaic anonymous VHF system. This is 2016. I have a phone in my pocket that can instantly identify my 'transmissions' as being from me and also give my location. That technology cost peanuts.

If the idiots abusing 121.5 for their juvenile amusement were immediately identifiable, it would stop - instantly. A small data packet accompanying each mic press is all that's needed.

Apart from the benefit of silencing the idiots, there would be others, e.g. the aircraft ATC is currently talking to could highlight on the ATCO's screen.

The technology is already here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-way_radio. Why are we still using 1950's radio tech in the most complex vehicles ever made ?

[JW411]

Probably for the same reason that the US Military are still using floppy disks.

[Ian W]

It's surely time to move away from the archaic anonymous VHF system. This is 2016. I have a phone in my pocket that can instantly identify my 'transmissions' as being from me and also give my location. That technology cost peanuts.

If the idiots abusing 121.5 for their juvenile amusement were immediately identifiable, it would stop - instantly. A small data packet accompanying each mic press is all that's needed.

Apart from the benefit of silencing the idiots, there would be others, e.g. the aircraft ATC is currently talking to could highlight on the ATCO's screen.

The technology is already here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-way_radio. Why are we still using 1950's radio tech in the most complex vehicles ever made ?

We are using archaic systems because of airline beancounters who want to see a 'monetized profit' from any change within 18 months.

There are multiple different ways of identifying 'the idiots' and also removing the change of frequency issues. But it is cheaper to have a standard VHF box or two on the flight deck and cheap wins _every_ time. Safety never comes first for a beancounter.

[FullWings]

121.5 is basically useless in the UK because most everyone has it turned down so they can monitor the active ATC frequency.
Yes. That’s my experience. I have it turned right down until at least in the cruise in UK airspace. I wouldn’t do that in China/Russia/Africa/USA, etc. but then we don’t have MiGs or weekend warriors in F16s looking to shoot at people...

[RHS]

Last night sort of took the biscuit for 121.500 idiocy.

First comment "anyone know the champions league score"

"1-0 Athletico"

Thus follows 5-10 minutes of near continuous Spanish back and forward, animal noises, hollering, and goaaaaaaaaaallll impressions.

Try not turning 121.5 down after that!

[RAT 5]

Those guys have been flying the Atlantic too much during NFL or baseball season. Why people can't wait to hear the news later on is beyond me. The world will still turn. For those of us who've set the recorder it's damn bad etiquette.

[Yaw String]

I turn it down,regularly,....then,because of my age maybe,...forget to turn it up again.

Btw..if we could award points....the Choochoo train man,back in the early 2000s,over the western Atlantic,..id give them 10/10..

But the very best,most probably on 123.45 was the American lady,in southern drawl,...who came up with this gem..

"Heh guys,...do you know why we woman,...at the red stop lights,...always run our fingers through our hair?"
"Nope" came some obliging responders..
"Because we don't have no balls to scratch!"

Now, that was informative.....and well worth sharing...

JW411..(below).... Now,who would do such a dastardly thing!!!!!!..Did we ever fly together!

[JW411]

I used to fly with a captain who would sometimes push the transmit button and set off the fire warning test bell at the same time round about 30W when eastbound across the Pond in the middle of the night.

I often wondered how many slumbering pilots that wakened up.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Right, I know what Mode S is and what it does. I also know that there's plenty of planes without mode S. So again, someone starts making pig noises and it seems to be coming from an area with a couple of non-mode S 1200 squawks, none of which are talking to ATC, what call sign do you call out?
Isn't 1200 still "autonomous fighter operations" in the UK?

[Lonewolf_50]

Probably for the same reason that the US Military are still using floppy disks.
Actually, they aren't. What is being done is CD Media are being used to get around the vulnerability that USB ports created. not Floppy disks, per se. :)

[t-bag]

The Delta Capt in WATRS on Fri telling all about his "Navy" carrier landings and the virtues of the "Delta girls" ....gringeworthy.

[A Squared]

Isn't 1200 still "autonomous fighter operations" in the UK?



Could be. Are you aware that the word of aviation doesn't end at the borders of the UK? There's a whole wide world out there beyond the UK, and people fly airplanes in it. In a good portion of it, a 1200 code is an uncontrolled VFR squawk

[A Squared]

Probably for the same reason that the US Military are still using floppy disks. Actually, they aren't. What is being done is CD Media are being used to get around the vulnerability that USB ports created. not Floppy disks, per se. :)

Actually, they are. (http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/26/us/pentagon-floppy-disks-nuclear/) They're talking about computers which are pre-USB, and pre-diskette, even.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

An interesting thread one which I have read from start to finnish. I do apologise if this has been suggested earlier.

The problems:
1. Idiot pilots misusing 121.5.
2. Multiple Practice Pan / Training Fix calls.
3. Misuse of 121.5 by ground based idiots.

The worries:
1. Turning down or turning off 121.5 and missing an important call.
2. Missing a frequency change, running out of radio range and becoming an intercept target.

My suggested solution:
Have a system where civilian aircraft have an internationally used frequency on which they can only RECEIVE messages. The only agencies that can TRANSMIT on that frequency are ATC and Military Aircraft. Pilots monitor this frequency and do not need to monitor 121.5 - let the ATC units that have the need to, do that.

Problem 1 no longer a problem
Problem 2 no longer a problem
Problem 3 still there but as the misuse is ground-based it will be temporary and hopefully easily traceable if reported as a frequent occurrence.

If you happen to wander on in silence then you will eventually hear a call directed at you ( hopefully you can remember your callsign) and the gentle reminder that you need to be talking to someone on 118.5. You can then make that change and apologise profusely. Alternatively, you can wait till the Typhoon pitches up and talks to you a little more sternly suggesting 118.5 or over the North Sea is the place to be.

Surely this is not beyond our current capabilities.

Thoughts?

[Al E. Vator]

...and still have 121.5 on the back-up Comm 2 ready to transmit in case of own emergency? Not a bad idea.

The only other issue is that it's still very worthwhile aircraft having 121.5 monitored as they are usually in VHF range of any aircraft in distress where earthbound ATC units are not - aircraft have a far greater chance of hearing a distress call.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

A valid point to consider, however not a showstopper by any means.
Where the a/c are receiving numerous distracting practice calls on 121.5 then the transmitting aircraft will, in all probability, be in the vicinity of a ground station. Therefore nothing is lost by turning down the volume of 121.5.

In remote areas you can still do your bit by listening out on 121.5 and if idiots insist on playing games then you can turn the box down until it is quiet again or you can leave it turned down knowing that if a professional wants to talk to you urgently he can do so from his console (ATC) or the cockpit of his armed fighter (QRA); either way, you are not in jeopardy.

[Capt Claret]

An alternative solution....

Build a bridge and get over it. :oh:

[Crash one]

Another alternative would be, grow up & behave as though they deserve to hold the licence.
Some of us GA "toy aeroplane flyers" are under the obviously mistaken naive notion that 121.5 is there to help us WHEN we DO need it.
I had no idea that professional pilots were such a load of utter pillocks.
After reading this lot I will never look at a professional ATPL the same way.
A. Total. Prat. Licence. Nearer the mark.

[handsome goafer]

Last night listened to a conversation between London and a light aircraft who was lost over Wales and low on fuel. Controller id his position and guided him to the closest airport.
Utterly professional

[Intrance]

Another alternative would be, grow up & behave as though they deserve to hold the licence.
Some of us GA "toy aeroplane flyers" are under the obviously mistaken naive notion that 121.5 is there to help us WHEN we DO need it.
I had no idea that professional pilots were such a load of utter pillocks.
After reading this lot I will never look at a professional ATPL the same way.
A. Total. Prat. Licence. Nearer the mark.

Way to go there, displaying your own maturity ;-).

Honestly, the guy above you had a bit of a point. There are not many, if any, "foolproof" systems that have not seen a fool prove it wasn't... Or in other words, all the new systems and ways to handle this that you can dream up are very nice. But idiots will find ways to be idiots.

And though the idiots are generally but a small fraction of us "prats", like in many other aspects of life, the few ruin it for the many.

[AKAAB]

I once listened on Guard to a single-engine ditching in progress in the Bahamas where a United pilot was trying to fix his position for the Coast Guard and advise him on ditching preparations so he wouldn't forget as he nursed a failing engine along.

Every time there was a break in the transmissions, some idiot or another would start screaming, "Guard!"

The Guard Nazis need to get their heads out of their arses.

The next time 121.5 is filled with juvenile chatter, I'm going to advise ATC that we are no longer monitoring due to frequency congestion.

[RAT 5]

One wonders what the "on guard' muppet was doing at the beginning of the conversation. If he had been truly monitoring and listening he would have been aware what was going on. To jump in at the latter stages with such an unsympathetic comment and lack of understanding would be enough to cause some 'bleeps' on the radio frequency. I might start with," pilot calling 'on guard' please identify yourself." They would not know if you were ATC or not. You might just get a response to allow an ID and when it's all over you can make a targeted comment.

[beardy]

I know that it's an anathema to many pilots, but if whilst using guard for it's designated purpose the words 'mayday' or 'pan' are used correctly, the world will know that the use of guard is not accidental.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Problem is that aircraft declared PAN or MAYDAY, starts to get things sorted with the ATC unit that has picked up the message, meanwhile numpty closing at 500kts comes into range and starts shouting "you're on guard". We used to always prefix the callsigns with Pan or Mayday throughout the emergency so that everyone knew what was happening.
I understand that now this is just a discretionary thing. Is that correct?

[clamchowder]

AKAAB, I think that is a good idea. If enough of us declare we've stopped listening to 121.5 over ATC freq it could cause congestion. Perhaps once it starts causing ATC problems they will make the effort to triangulate/ report those responsible.
I heard Maastricht triangulate a Dutch aircraft a few days ago for music being transmitted from their location on 121.5. This proves at least some are able to triangulate.

[+TSRA]

You know, if I'm in an emergency and some moron yells "Guard" while I'm trying to get help, I have a little phrase that I can use to tell them to shove it... SEELONCE MAYDAY. Quite useful really. I know the station in distress is supposed to say it, but I'd be up for another pilot doing it on my behalf.

We used to always prefix the callsigns with Pan or Mayday throughout the emergency so that everyone knew what was happening.
I understand that now this is just a discretionary thing. Is that correct?

SATCOS - here in Canada that is a requirement as described in RIC-21, 6.13 Distress Traffic where it states:

In distress traffic, the distress signal “MAYDAY”, spoken once, shall precede all transmissions. This procedure is intended to alert stations not aware of the initial distress call and now monitoring the distress channel that traffic heard relates to a distress situation.


However, actually getting pilots to transmit a Distress Message in the first place is like trying to pull teeth.

[fireflybob]

From the UK CAP413:-

Following the initial distress or urgency message, it is permissible for pilots and controllers to use ‘MAYDAY’ and ‘PAN’ as a callsign prefix at their discretion, where it is judged that this would have a beneficial effect on the outcome.

[LLuCCiFeR]

Wow! Is this complete nonsense 'guard-police' discussion still ongoing?

Some people need to get a life and focus on the more important things in aviation such as fatigue!

Perhaps the increase in fatigue and the deterioration of our profession are the reasons of so many pilots having a brain fart and transmitting on the wrong frequency in the first place? :hmm:

[Jump Complete]

I was recently at an assessment day for a fairly large airline. In the waiting area where we were all congregating between tests / exercises / interviews I was listening to a couple of pilots in their twenties from a certain low cost carrier joking about making noises, jokes etc on 121.5. I was thinking, come on guys, really? And if you do do that, is here the place to admit it? Wonder how they got on?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Wow! Is this complete nonsense 'guard-police' discussion still ongoing?

Some people need to get a life and focus on the more important things in aviation such as fatigue!

Perhaps the increase in fatigue and the deterioration of our profession are the reasons of so many pilots having a brain fart and transmitting on the wrong frequency in the first place? :hmm:
The point has been missed, perhaps due to the aforementioned fatigue.

What I see bieng discussed as a problem is not accidental transmission on guard but the deliberate and childish act that is akin to internet trolling. Internet trolling is an annoyance, misuse of guard frequency could have fatal consequences. Sadly, whilst people like Capt Claret above have that attitude then nothing will change. I do hope he has nothing at all to do with pilot training.

[sputnik01]

Misuse of International Aeronautical Emergency Frequency 121.5 MHz - SKYbrary Aviation Safety (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Misuse_of_International_Aeronautical_Emergency_Frequency_121 .5_MHz)

Safety Reminder Message

Misuse of International Aeronautical Emergency Frequency 121.5 MHz

Date: 19 June 2012 http://www.skybrary.aero/images/thumb/Safety_Reminder_Message.gif/60px-Safety_Reminder_Message.gif (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Category:Safety_Reminder_Message)
Synopsis

The EUROCONTROL Agency has been notified on numerous occasions about the misuse of the international aeronautical emergency frequency, 121.5MHz, most recently involving inappropriate ‘chat’ related to the ongoing EURO 2012 football championship.
ICAO Provisions


ICAO Annex 10, Volume V, § 4.1.3.1.1 states that frequency 121.5 MHz “shall be used only for genuine emergency purposes” broadly covering the following activities:

The handling of an emergency situations;
air-ground communication with aircraft with airborne equipment failure;
search and rescue operations and the operation of emergency locator transmitters (ELTs); and
air policing/interception action.
Note: Some states have filed differences to ICAO SARPs related to the use of 121.5 MHz - for instance, in the UK it can also be used for practice PAN calls to ensure pilot familiarity with the process. Such differences are detailed in national AIPs.
Analysis

Inappropriate ‘chat’ on 121.5 MHz could interfere with its legitimate use and should be avoided in order to maintain the integrity of the frequency for the purposes for which it is intended.
Your Attention Is Required


Aircraft operators are invited to remind their flight crews about the correct use of the international aeronautical emergency frequency, 121.5MHz, according to ICAO/national requirements and company policy.
Air Navigation Service Providers and State Aviation Authorities are invited to note the subject and share their experience with similar cases.
Further Reading


ICAO Annex 10, Vol V.
Request for Support Message, “Guarding 121.5 MHz (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Guarding_121.5_MHz)”, 12 March 2007.
Disclaimer

© European Organisation for Safety of Air Navigation (EUROCONTROL) June 2012. This alert is published by EUROCONTROL for information purposes. It may be copied in whole or in part, provided that EUROCONTROL is mentioned as the source and to the extent justified by the non-commercial use (not for sale). The information in this document may not be modified without prior written permission from EUROCONTROL. The use of the document is at the user’s sole risk and responsibility. EUROCONTROL expressly disclaim any and all warranties with respect to any content within the alert, express or implied.

[de facto]

Wonder how they got on?

Definitively…:E
Which airline did they come from?

[Jump Complete]

Everyone's favourite Irish low cost airline.

[Mikehotel152]

I can't deny the allegation because I wasn't there, but I've never heard any such comments or rumours of unprofessional comments on 121.5 in my time with that airline. I've absolutely no doubt that anyone admitting to such commentary in the crewroom would meet with immediate condemnation from their peers.

As those noises and comments are generally made in certain airspace, I've always assumed it was coming from the ground.

[Jump Complete]

I can't deny the allegation because I wasn't there, but I've never heard any such comments or rumours of unprofessional comments on 121.5 in my time with that airline.

Perhaps I should qualify my statement; the indivuals weren't admitting to actually making these transmissions (as you say, I'm sure they would be condemned for doing so) but certainly seemed to find the practice amusing, which I thought spoke a little of their general professional attitudes. Perhaps that's unfair, but I think it gave a poor impression, and if anyone from the selecting team had overheard, I expect they might feel the same!

[Mikehotel152]

I was listening to a couple of pilots in their twenties from a certain low cost carrier joking about making noises, jokes etc on 121.5. I was thinking, come on guys, really? And if you do do that, is here the place to admit it?

That's what you said.

[JW411]

Do I detect just the slightest hint of sh*t stirring?

[Koan]

Someone please post how to yell SHUT UP! in Mandarin, Korean, and Tagalog.

[STBYRUD]

Mandarin: Bì zui!
Korean: Dahk chuh!
Tagalog: Tahimik!

While I agree that messing about on 121.5 is not the most mature thing to do I don't think its as dramatic of a situation as the thread starter makes it. Ignore it, move on... Just like trolls on the internet, the golden rule is not to feed them! Shouting at people increases the traffic on guard even more and challenges others to respond with an even more agressive 'bahhh' or 'mooooo'. :hmm:

[kghjfg]

I had to use 121.5 recently in a SEP, it's amazing this thread clearly states an airline pilot may have deliberately put my life in danger.

What was truly amazing (to me) was that I had lost my transponder and they triangulated my position before I told them even roughly were I was. I presume that was done from my RT ?

There's a thread elsewhere about how little respect airline captains get these days. I wonder why ?

[Ian W]

It is called 'auto-triangulation' or 'multilateration'; the system shows the controller the position of any aircraft transmitting on the emergency frequencies using direction finding from multiple receiver sites. The system was developed for military aircraft in emergency which at that time often only had a few seconds to call Mayday before exiting the aircraft.

[TC_Ukraine]

ATCOs from Crimea call on 121.5 every single traffic flying over Black sea.

[dancingdog777]

Just a thought, how about an international alternative frequency using SW USB or LSB for when 121.5 (VHF) is clogged up? Perhaps somewhere around 20.980 Mhz? Any idiots would need expensive Ham sets to interfere. I'm pretty sure Canadian Air Force used to use a frequency around there with call sign VXV9.

[Three Lima Charlie]

Dog777....any idea how many airline, corporate jets, private aircraft have HF installed? Very few. And look around most control towers, no HF equipment.

[Fire and brimstone]

What about the morons who spend all day interjecting the word 'blocked' on busy ATC frequencies?

Very occasionally this helps the controller. 90% of the time it adds to the congestion.

Stop it guys, and let the controller do their job.

[iceman50]

Its not just to help the controller and it could be the aircraft that the call was intended for calling blocked, done it myself!

[Hotel Tango]

What about the morons who spend all day interjecting the word 'blocked' on busy ATC frequencies?

Very occasionally this helps the controller. 90% of the time it adds to the congestion.

That's a matter of opinion!