NATS recruiting controllers externally?

[lord of the zones]

It seems there's an ad out for ATCO (s)? At Stansted

Not like NATS to recruit controllers directly from outside (yes I have heard it happens occasionally but the external Ad for the job is a bit unusual)

What's happened to their college training pipeline?

[Lissart]

I give up searching: Where have you seen this ad....?

[Crazy Voyager]

https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/tgwebhost/jobdetails.aspx?partnerid=30041&siteid=5720&jobid=896886

link from here: Vacancies - NATS (http://www.nats.aero/careers/vacancies/)

[LostThePicture]

Sign of the times....

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Seems curious that from its large pool of controllers across the UK, NATS can't find anyone to transfer to Stansted?

Or is Essex really THAT bad?

[45 before POL]

More like they have no controllers available......if they recruit externally, it normally means they've $cr €w €d up.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Im assuming there are fewer ADI courses at the college now there are less TWR jobs available with the lost contracts? Has this played a part as well?

[chevvron]

Not like NATS to recruit controllers directly from outside (yes I have heard it happens occasionally but the external Ad for the job is a bit unusual)

What's happened to their college training pipeline?
They had to recruit externally in a hurry prior to opening the extended Farnborough LARS. I think this covered Western Radar too.

[JBNE]

There have been a number of ADI courses recently and a number of students at the college now who have ADI ratings already. It is baffling.

[chevvron]

There have been a number of ADI courses recently and a number of students at the college now who have ADI ratings already. It is baffling.
ADI rated ab initio controllers are of no use when you need APS controllers. There are many controllers on the market (often of European origin - I know of several Spanish nationals who self -funded with a UK college) with ADI who were trained at 'other' colleges and if they seek employment by NATS without having achieved C of C, perhaps NATS require them to complete an APC (Assessment of Prior Competence) before letting them loose in the field.
Years ago, NATS used to require people to complete the entire course if they hadn't trained with NATS originally.

[1985]

There have been a number of ADI courses recently and a number of students at the college now who have ADI ratings already. It is baffling.

There has been maybe 4 in the last year and all with less than 4 people on each course. There are 2 students at the college now who have ADI ratings and they have just started an APP course.

A 16 person basic course slated to go ADI and APP has just started. How many and up at airports or at TC is the question. NATS has got its numbers wrong and is now playing catch up. They let too many people go on VR so everywhere is understaffed including the college so the numbers of students can't ramp up much beyond 16 - 20 on a course. But those trainees won't be at unit and valid for at least 18 - 24 mths. Stansted taking on an experienced controller should at least shorten the process to getting an extra body.

[250 kts]

And there are no NATS ATCOs at other units who want to go to SS? Surely they should be the priority and the back fill with Ab-initios or external candidates?

[LEGAL TENDER]

Applicants must hold an ADI rating etc etc... and mustn't be current Nats ATCOs:E:E:E:E

I wonder what's the legality of that!!

[45 before POL]

And there are no NATS ATCOs at other units who want to go to SS? Surely they should be the priority and the back fill with Ab-initios or external candidates?
There are atcos within Nats that have specifically requested SS. However, as said shortages across units, mean they are not going to be released.
I know of 1 ATCO at Swanwick (not a happy bunny with this coming up and no contact) who thought they were on "a list"
I see bigger issues with taking internally ( call me cynical). 1.Is that individual near the top of their pay scale.. 2. If they in the defined benefit pension scheme.
If near the top of 1 and also in 2 then the costs would be significantly higher than hiring externally. If I was holding the purse strings, I know what I'd do.

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

How also does this external recruitment fit with a lot of the disparaging comments seen on this forum and in coversations around the company about the suitability of "non-NATS" ATCOs coming to BB and KK?

[T250]

Funny how NATS usual policy of only possibly ever recruiting ab-initio through their precious in house college and the frankly disgusting comments bandied about on this forum by their own ATCO staff about being so 'superior' in regards to BB and KK are now really exposed like the trash they are :E

Yes, it may take a special type of ATCO to validate at certain units, be it BB, KK or in this instance, SS.

However. It does not have to be a NATS ab-initio trained, NATS unit previously validated etc etc ATCO. :hmm::=

[Whattodo]

I never went to the NATS' college and I am valid in two sectors in TC.

I think your comment is a bit unfair, you have to be in the right place at the right time.

Sometimes you also have to take on the risk yourself. I gambled a lot to be where I am now, it was definitely worth it, but bloody hard work.

[chevvron]

We had a young lady at Farnborough who self funded her training and she was fully as good as NATS trained staff.
She went to Gatwick from Farnborough but whether she has stayed there with the change of ATS provider I don't know.

[Nimmer]

She didn't make it!!! Just sayin that's all!!!

[chevvron]

She didn't make it!!! Just sayin that's all!!!
That's a pity, I always got on well with her.
Mind you I shouldn't be surprised as 3 other people I knew over the years went to Gatwick; 1 succeeded and the other 2 came back to Farnborough having 'failed'.
There was another who had a 'compulsory' posting there during the 'station downgrading' phase of the '80s/90s. For those unaware, long before 'Bands 1 to 5' were invented, NATS decided that most medium/small airfields shouldn't have ATCO 2s as the 'working' grade but they should be ATCO 3s, so those '2s on the unit either had to agree to a downgrade or get a posting to an ATCO 2 post.
This particular person refused to do either (he wasn't the only one in NATS either) and was first given a compuslory posting to Gatwick. I forget what happened but he returned to Farnborough from where he was given a 'compulsory' to CATC.

[Hootin an a roarin]

What would have been nice is waiting to see if the Edinburgh and London City contracts are retained before recruiting externally somewhere else. Stansted after all is only a Band 3 unit. Otherwise NATS have potentially a lot of controllers on a 'Trust of a Promise' to find places for. And I believe they will not 'promote' through that process.

[SilentHandover]

Hootin an a roarin, there were multiple TOAP posting offers to band 5 units from Gatwick.

[Hootin an a roarin]

Without getting into a bun fight band 2 and 3 are there and there abouts the same. Anything above that needs assessment centres, interviews and the usual jumping through many hoops. I suspect if the EDI contract is lost, they are not going to offer anyone LHR on a TOAP which takes me back to my original point.

[Lissart]

So, just for fun let's speculate on what profile they are looking for at SS. No NATS staff, so that rules out experience at the bigger airports. Unless there are ex-NATS staff out there who for whatever reason are no longer in the job but all-of-a-sudden fancy getting back in. GA units? One would hardly credit it. So someone from a larger non-NATS place - Liverpool/Donni/Newcastle etc. Probably a better bet. Or they could take someone who has had mostly just ADV experience, nothing bigger than a KingAir, no APP unit to co-ordinate with, sod all IFR/airways work, no LVP's much, no Wake Turbulence departures - I could go on. Why de I mention that? Because a certain ex-NATS single rwy, well known airport in the SE has just employed someone with that profile......


Now please forgive the bitterness (not really...) as I wish the person concerned all the very best. And at the end of the day if there is a successful validation out of it then one cannot possible moan. The choice of what must have simply been based on "raw talent" will have been justified, as the profile does not immediately look like a good match. So what do employers see and want in these HR-driven days? We've all supposedly got the same licences, which now extends to our European colleagues. What about one of them then?


I'd welcome your thoughts because from what I've seen of late it is all a bit of a mystery.......!

[Tower Ranger]

You've forgotten about one group. The experienced UK ATCO's working overseas at some pretty complex and busy units who might just fancy heading back home.

[T250]

Or they could take someone who has had mostly just ADV experience, nothing bigger than a KingAir, no APP unit to co-ordinate with, sod all IFR/airways work, no LVP's much, no Wake Turbulence departures - I could go on. Why de I mention that? Because a certain ex-NATS single rwy, well known airport in the SE has just employed someone with that profile......

That's the least of the problems to affect that ex-NATS unit this summer, believe me! :hmm::yuk:

[Conspiracy Theories]

I would exho lissart's comment. We are in this so called amazing united european emirates where we all have the same licence and can go anywhere in europe to further progress our career or just look for a change of work your back side off for shareholders (sorry couldnt resist).
I have applied in germany, spain and italy only to be told i cannot apply which is really confusing since i thought in europe,there was no issue. Seems like the UK are the only ones that are taking people and now externally.
Good luck to all and hopefully the UK will be out of europe in late june

[spoon84]

I find the last comment quite interessting, because if consider that the ATCO license is "valid" internationally but actually if you apply in some countries (in Europe) it's almost impossible to get in. For example I got a ADI, APS rating plus i speak Italian (mother tongue) but I couldn't have any changes to get in Italy and work in a major airport to get a "new experience". I find this a bit sad and for sure not European mind set, in other terms I mean that aviation it's trying to standaraize everything (english level, phrasology, training, medical) but when we got finally that license, we can move pratically only inside or move in the Far East/Middle East or Africa (maybe). Why?

[Ivor_Novello]

For example I got a ADI, APS rating plus i speak Italian (mother tongue) but I couldn't have any changes to get in Italy and work in a major airport to get a "new experience".

You have no chance of working in Italy for ENAV anyway, unless a family member already works for ENAV, or one of your relatives works for the government etc... ;)

[Romeo_Fox]

in some countries (in Europe) it's almost impossible to get in

From personal experience I can tell it's just as hard in the UK/with the UK CAA to get a EU license recognized.

[chevvron]

From personal experience I can tell it's just as hard in the UK/with the UK CAA to get a EU license recognized.
The CAA only employ ATCOs for office jobs for regulation and examining etc. They take people without ANY civil ATC experience too.

[Romeo_Fox]

The CAA only employ ATCOs for office jobs

I wasn't talking about working for the CAA. What I meant was getting the UK CAA to recognize a EU license in order to work as an ATCO isn't just a piece of cake.

[3miles]

So, just for fun let's speculate on what profile they are looking for at SS. No NATS staff, so that rules out experience at the bigger airports. Unless there are ex-NATS staff out there who for whatever reason are no longer in the job but all-of-a-sudden fancy getting back in. GA units? One would hardly credit it. So someone from a larger non-NATS place - Liverpool/Donni/Newcastle etc. Probably a better bet. Or they could take someone who has had mostly just ADV experience, nothing bigger than a KingAir, no APP unit to co-ordinate with, sod all IFR/airways work, no LVP's much, no Wake Turbulence departures - I could go on. Why de I mention that? Because a certain ex-NATS single rwy, well known airport in the SE has just employed someone with that profile......


Now please forgive the bitterness (not really...) as I wish the person concerned all the very best. And at the end of the day if there is a successful validation out of it then one cannot possible moan. The choice of what must have simply been based on "raw talent" will have been justified, as the profile does not immediately look like a good match. So what do employers see and want in these HR-driven days? We've all supposedly got the same licences, which now extends to our European colleagues. What about one of them then?


I'd welcome your thoughts because from what I've seen of late it is all a bit of a mystery.......!

Where does this differ from someone coming straight from the college(or a college) going straight to these units? I don't see previous unit experience being that much of a factor(in some cases it's a disadvantage as you have to unlearn previous techniques) - in the changing world of ATC I think HR and unit management want someone with more than just skills to say cleared to land, where's my pay rise.

[Nimmer]

Ok I will ask, 3 miles what are HR actually looking for then. Personally we are so short staffed, (thank you mr I will give everybody VR who applies), that my criteria would be if you have a pulse start tomorrow.