Redhill Circuits.

[sennadog]

Can anyone give me some good advice?

I've got about 1 hour left of my 4 hour circuit session for my PPL and I always seem a bit high. I can't really get the PAPIS to line up, with the white lights usually showing and I think that it's mainly a result of flying in the winter with the higher/gustier winds that has "encouraged" me to fly in a bit higher and faster.

I understand that you should be able to take your hands off the controls (I haven't bothered as such) for about 5 seconds without making any adjustments but I find that on final, I'm usually adjusting the power 2 - 3 times before I'm happy.

Does it really matter at this stage? Or is it something that you get better at with more practice?

Cheers All.

[Tinstaafl]

You'll improve with practice.

As your experience increases you'll be able to notice smaller deviations & trends, and be able to see them sooner.

This will allow you to make corrections before the deviation becomes large.

Initially calm, smooth flying conditions will help you to develop a ' baseline' technique from which you can develop your skills to cope with the more wild & woolly conditions.

[AerBabe]

Might be worth asking for the PAPIS to be turned off on a few approaches, so you get used to what you should see out of the front.

[sennadog]

Aerbabe. Don't think this will work as it's only been the last two days that I've even noticed the PAPIS!

What I'm seeing I'm happy with - that is a little too high rather than too low:D but I was just wondering if I'm completely crap or just a bit "out" on my approach.

[AerBabe]

:D There goes that idea then!
Shouldn't think you're completely crap, or your instructor wouldn't let you out ;)
Perhaps it isn't the power you should be adjusting on final, but trim. The way I've been taught is to choose a power setting you know should work, and then trim to get the right approach speed. If you're coming in too high, then next time round try taking a bit off the power setting. :)

[sennadog]

Cheers, I'll try that. I think that I'm trying to also "keep away" from the M23 and the trees that are just prior to the threshold.

Anyway, I'll try your idea tomorrow. If it doesn't work then I can blame you as I know it won't be my fault!;)

[Squawk7000]

Sennadog

Repeating Aerobabes' good advice, turn the PAPIS off.
What will you do when you go to an airfield without
that facility ?

What you need to master is SMALL power changes on
final will lead to a stabilised approach. It takes practise,
but you have to anticipate sink and react accordingly.

[TheKentishFledgling]

Is it not better to fly high approaches as opposed to approaches perfectly on the PAPIs?
I've always thought PAPIs were for when the vis is crappy, and aimed towards the "bigger aeroplanes" as it will suit their g/s angle better?

Surely higher approaches are better to be able to do, as if something goes wrong with the donkey, you have more height to play with, and also it's better as it keeps noise down for those on the ground.

Just my thoughts as a very inexperience student PPL. :cool:

tKF

[Squawk7000]

Kentish

You are correct in stating the PAPIS are really for the
"big boys" on lond 10 mile finals.

However, to fly an approach too high for an inexperienced
PPL might quite well lead to an unwanted dive for runway.
Obviously this will be at a much greater speed and very
dangerous.

[AerBabe]

Good point about the trees and motorway Sennadog. On the final approach to Wellesbourne (can't remember which r/w) you fly over a big hill. It's difficult to forget about it and fly a normal approach... but if you don't there's no way you can get down in time. Good luck... and don't you dare blame me! :D

[eveepee]

Sennadog - you've made me feel a hell of a lot better:) I thought it was only me having trouble with landing (AerBabe knows all about this and has been more than helpful in her emails to me -Thanks AB ). Not only am I flying in too high sometimes (although my instructor says he likes to see 2 whites), I can also be too low. too fast and too slow.:o I'm still persevering and hope to land a good one, one day. Any advice is more than welcome.

[Keef]

This might not work with club aircraft, particularly if you fly several different ones, but I was taught to "learn" the correct power settings for the various configurations.

So written on my pad is that X is so many knots trimmed straight & level; Y (no trim change) will get me a 500fpm descent; gear and flaps down and Z will get 80 knots and 3 degrees down; and so on.

Using those, I can "set" the power and know it's going to be within a spit of right. There may be slight adjustments needed, but not a lot. It's a bit more to learn, but once you have it, flying is a lot easier.

You might need a weight adjustment - solo vs loaded, full vs empty tanks. Actually makes very little difference in our particular beast.

[iainpoll]

Sennadog,

My instructor taught me thus.

When established on final, trim for your approach speed, then kill the power, trim and maintain airspeed. Forget the PAPI'S look at the threshold. Try to keep the position of the threshold constant in the winscreen, MAINTAINING airspeed. If the threshold starts dissapearing under the nose, you are too high, if the threshold starts climbing up the windscreen, add a little power, but only until it stays in position. You should then be able to fly down the glide slope. Worked for me anyway! Good luck.

Iain.

[Evo7]

I've been taught the same thing as Iain, and it works well for me too. Well, normally - had a definite :eek: :o on a glide approach recently. Still, reassuring to know that you can thump a PA-28 in that hard without breaking it.... :rolleyes:

I also wouldn't bother worrying about the PAPIs. I'd find them more of a distraction than anything else. Just make sure that the airspeed is correct you're not obviously high or low and a small adjustment in power is all you need to get things sorted out.

[BEagle]

1. You should definitely ask for the PAPIs to be switched off.

2. Try asking to be taught the 'point and power' technique which some are alluding to above. Most people find it much, much easier than any other system. It works for any aeroplane type if your final turn has been flown correctly.

[sennadog]

Some good advice here peeps. Thanks, I'll let you know how I get on later.:)

[Who has control?]

Senna,
Try not to get fixated on the PAPIs, I used to make a complete hash of things when I looked at them. Now I don't have any to look at, (different airfield), I just make a partial hash of it!

The trick is to get your speed nailed on final, get it in trim & then leave the trim alone. Then play the throttle all the way down onto the ground - lots of very small adjustments.

[eveepee]

Also thanks from EVP for all the advice and to Sennadog for letting me muscle in on his post.

[Evo7]

EVP

Personally I think that your problem is here:

"Not only am I flying in too high sometimes ... I can also be too low, too fast and too slow"

Get the speed right and the rest tends to follow - then if you're too low, add power. Too high, reduce power. Simple. Just keep the speed right...

Obviously, if you're at idle and you're still too high on short final then it's time for plan "B", which is probably a go around.

EVO ;)

[FlyingForFun]

Sennadog,

All the advice about ignoring the PAPIs is right - and, in fact, it sounds like you're doing just fine as you are! TheKentishFledgling and others are quite right - PAPIs are there for the big guys, and you should be above them.

If you follow the path of the PAPIs in a PA28 or a C152, you'll be coming in very flat, and need quite a lot of power. So much so that, if the engine were to quit, you'd have absolutely no chance of making it to the field.

This doesn't apply to the big guys - first of all, they have two or more engines, so they're not so worried about engine failuers, and secondly it takes a while for jet engines to spool up once you push the thrust levers forward, so they must come in flat and use lots of power, or else they wouldn't be able to go around safely! (Or something like that, anyway - haven't actually got to fly the big metal myself yet, so I might have the details slightly wrong.)

Good luck - sounds like you'll be going solo soon!

FFF
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[FlyingForFun]

EVP,

Evo gives good advice - you must get the speed right. But don't fixate on the ASI! I know that sounds like a contradiction, but bear with me...

You should have flown enough approaches by now to know the correct attitude on final. The trick is to fly this attitude! If you do that, the speed will be right - you can glance at the ASI occassionally (every 3 or 4 seconds at the most) to confirm, but you shouldn't need to make anything except the smallest changes.

Not convinced? Ok, here's the theory part. We know that speed and angle of attack are pretty much interchangeable in straight flight. So what you really need to do is keep the angle of attack right. And, ignoring any nasty winds, for any given vertical speed, each attitude will give you a specific angle of attack. So if you learn the attitude, and fly the attitude, the speed will follow.

All it takes is practice - keep at it! Good luck,

FFF
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[Hersham Boy]

sennadog - as you refer to M23 and trees and PAPIs you are referring to approaches to 28L/R... I usually find myself coming in a bit high on this approach for this reason: the pass over the motorway tend to lift you up a bit (warm air off the tarmac, I guess) but the area ahead of the threshhold with the trees always seems to give you sink of even greater rate than the previous climb... therefore, I seem to get very close to the trees if I follow the PAPIs exactly. Not good ;)

I'm not saying the PAPIs are wrong - I'm sure it's my flying! But i find my landings are better if I come in on two whites until the sink over the greenery beford the 28 threshold...

Hersh

[greatorex]

Sennadog:

Have you thought of going up to Biggin to do one or two circuits? I know that it's more expensive there but with a strip that's nearly 2 kilometers long there's a lot more room to play with plus the asphalt may help give you a clearer 'image' in your mind of the approach than the grass strips at Redhill.

[sennadog]

Cheers guys and gals!

I now know what happened yesterday. What I believe was going wrong - wasn't! For the first time yesterday I was more relaxed and confident but not too confident. Consequently, I had a bit more time and started to concentrate a bit more on the PAPIS lights and being very critical of myself (that's my nature) I thought that I was ballsing it up when I probably wasn't.

Sometimes my approaches are a bit too high for sure. Today, my second touch and go ended up in a go-around but this was as a result of not extending the base leg enough so that as I turned onto final I didn't have enough room to descend sufficiently, thus ending up too high.

Basically, I'm expecting a perfect approach that a 747 Captain would make and obviously I'm not anywhere near that capable....

Sux to be me, huh?



Hersham Boy I'm referring to the PAPIS lights on 26L/26R coming in over the M23.:p ;) Hehe. Sorry mate, I had to get that one in.

So, as per your advice, everyone, I'm now not using the PAPIS as a "measuring stick" other than keeping half an eye on it in case it all goes red but I've gone back to my old way of just measuring the whole approach by eye/pitch/desent rate.

Once again, thanks for taking the time and trouble to help me out.

Regards, Sennadog.

[FNG]

I second what FFF says: fly by attitude. "LEARN the attitudes" said my instructor 97 times during every flight and every de-briefing. My rubbish circuit flying got so much better whenever he covered up the ASI. I am still guilty sometimes of looking at the ASI too much, but much less than I used to be. I don't even know how to spell PAPI, and have never knowingly looked at one. Most GA fields don't have them and, as FFF says, they aren't intended for us in our puddle jumpers.

[Romeo Romeo]

When I learnt I would always be too fast because I was worried about getting too close to the stall. This was soon fixed by flying from Derby with runways which were about 340 metres long :eek: .

I agree with the previous posters - get the airspeed right by trimming then sort the decent rate out using small power adjustments. As mentioned previously, get the airspeed right, but don't fixate on it - the things which are going to kill you are outside the aeroplane so that's where you should be looking as much as possible. If it's not going too well, don't be afraid to do a go-round and try again. Good pilots do go-rounds, poor ones carry on and hope it all turns out OK.

Also, don't be too harsh on yourself - approaches and landings always look better from outside. I've had some absolute shockers only to be told when I walked into the clubhouse 'Oooh, nice landing!' :)

[Hersham Boy]

Errrrrr.... 26L/R.... right. I was...errrrr.... referring to the fact that I usually land at a 20deg angle to the runway to make it more challenging.... not that I don't know my @rse from my elbow.... :rolleyes:

Hersh

[eveepee]

Thanks again everyone - you're a great bunch for taking time out to offer advice. :) I have even printed out the postings ! - sad or what!
Just to fill you in I have had 1.5 hrs in circuits/landings and I was quite pleased with the first lesson (45mins) - managed to get on the ground (sort of) most times, but the second lesson was a nightmare - you know - all over the place nearly every time. Think I landed (bounced) only once the others were go-rounds/instructor interventions.
I can relate to many of your comments especially - "thought I might fly into the ground" - that certainly went through my mind and I kept checking airspeed. Perhaps I am not looking outside enough. The fact that there always seemed to be someone lined up waiting to take off as I was trying to land was very off-putting .:o Well, I'll be trying again on Friday so I'm hoping to put your advice into practice.

[AerBabe]

Covered absolutely everything I could think of in my email EVP. Chin up, and report back on Friday ;)
(although I'll be having a jolly old time at the GatBash over the weekend, so you'll have to wait until Monday for my pearls of wisdom :D )

[Elvis21]

Senna,

It will all come with time and practice.

Always remember, any landig that you can walk away from is a good one!!!:D :D :D

[Who has control?]

Elvis,
Any landing that you can still use the aircraft after, is a BRILLIANT landing!

[eveepee]

Just reporting back on my Friday lesson and to say TYTYTY!
It didn't start too well as my instructor said we would be using a different runway and a left hand circuit (my previous circuit lessons had been on a rh)! However, this time armed with your advice and a different frame of mind, the lesson went a dream instead of a nightmare. It even went quickly!
I seemed to have more time and didn't panic, tried to keep the attitude/speed right and, you know, IT WORKED! I wouldn't go so far as to say I've mastered it but, at least, I now feel more confident, calm and back on track. Thanks everyone.:)

[GAF4139]

sennadog

During the last two weeks I have done about 4 1/2 hours circuits at Redhill and I haven't used the PAPIS once, not even looked at them although I know they are there.

When using 26L I found that when I set up for approach immediately after turning from downwind to base (along this little road) I have enough time to get the speed right and trim the aircraft before turning onto final. Then I can relax a bit and just concentrate on aiming at the numbers.


GAF4139

[AerBabe]

That's great news EVP! Hope you're feeling more chirpy about it all now. :)