US IR for UK IMC qualified pilots

[Romeo Romeo]

I'm tempted to get an IR at some time in the future. Getting one in the UK under JAA is expensive and difficult (because you can only do CPL/IR's at the moment and I don't really want a CPL) so I think I'd be more likely to go to the States and get one there. I've got an IMC rating (although I never use it because my aeroplane isn't equipped with enough gadgets). Has anyone out there done a similar thing? How difficult are IR's to get in comparison to an IMC? How much does it cost, and how useful is it to be able to fly airways in this country anyway?

[GoneWest]

The course is about the same as an IMC (assuming you did that IMC in the UK - and not over here).

Few more hours, of course, but not more to it.

Cost, I have no idea...e-mail a few schools - or look on their websites.

Value in the UK?? Depends on what you want to fly. If you fly G reg aircraft then it will give you IMC rating privileges - which you already have. Nothing else.

If you fly N reg aircraft, you can fly it in any airway anywhere in the World.

If you do not have access to an N reg aircraft - it is probably worthless (to you).

[Romeo Romeo]

I know to use the privileges of a US IR you need to fly an N registered aeroplane (ooops sorry, airplane), but from what I've heard, it isn't that expensive to keep an aeroplane on the N register. I have also heard that being on the N register also helps with some maintenance costs as well.

[englishal]

The course is about the same as an IMC (assuming you did that IMC in the UK - and not over here).

Not entirely true. To get issued an IR you need to complete a minimum of 40 hours either simulated or actual instrument time. There is far more to getting an FAA IR than many people think, there is of course the 'basic' attitude instrument flying, and shooting approaches, but you also deal with all the en-route stuff as well. The IR check ride is hard, in fact its probably the hardest thing you'll do after getting the initial PPL.

You have to complete the FAA written exams, which are not too hard if you know your onions, then you'll be given an oral exam which can be a bit of a bitch, followed by the skills test. Prior to the skills test the examiner will ask you to plan an IFR cross country trip, which he normally goes through with you and may use for the basis of the oral exam...When it comes to the skills test be prepared for anything as there is no set order for things to happen. For my test, I flew from Long Beach to Cable / Brackett IFR, shot the VOR approach into Brackett, executed missed approach, cancelled IFR and was asked to carry out steep turns, followed by unusual attitudes, then holding procedures, then a 5 DME arc around SLI vortac, ILS into Fullerton or somewhere, missed approach, VOR into LGB. The whole flight took around 2 hours.

Me and my mate went over last October and it basically took us 3 weeks to get the IR. It was hard work though, we both had virtually nil instrument time, and were short of FAA cross country time. Before you take the IR check ride you need to have 50 hours cross country (over 50 nm from point of departure to destination airport), so a lot of our training was carried out cross country (saw a lot of nice restaraunts though). My hardest day was leaving LGB at 16:00, flying IFR to Phoenix, then returning....7 hours of flying IFR, I think I got home at about 2-3am....

As far as costs go, you're looking at $75 / hour for aircraft rental and another $30 / hr for the instructor. If you already have instrument time, which you do, then this can count towards the 40 hrs. Also the FAA state that up to 20 hrs of the 40 hours can be completed in an approved training device (simulator), which costs around $30 per hour plus the instructor. On top of this you have a $75 written exam fee, plus a $300 skills test fee. I did all my training in an aircraft rather than the sim, which I'm glad about, the exposure we got to the US ATC / IFR system has been invaluable.

Total cost for me, around $4500, probably less for you. And I have just read another thread which states the JAA will give credit for an ICAO IR holder against the JAA IR, so if in the future you decide to go for the JAA one, the costs will be a lot less. In the meantime though the CAA will issue the IMC rating for free (well £64)....

Cheers
EA ;)

[QNH 1013]

RR
It is now possible to do the IR writtens rather than the CPL writtens because some training organisations now have the courses available for PPL/IR under JAA. I understand that these may be done by distance learning. The PPLIR website (pplir.org) has lots of useful stuff on flying IFR in Europe.

[A and C]

In terms of time , money and hassel the IR in the USA is the easy option but if you think that it will be easy in terms of flying skills then think one more time !.

The FAA do not give these things away in corn flake packets.

The exam is very practical and unlike the CAA flight test that you know what is going to happen next and is full of theoretical bull the FAA flight test demands that you think on your feet in real time.

My test ran like this .........all engines ILS......one engine NDB and GA to divert to an airport that I had never seen .....one engine hold and NDB to a GA .......return to first airport with a VOR with a circle to land (single engine of course !).

This seems to be the way of the FAA the flight engineer exams also had the lack of bull and the strong emphasis on the practical.

[Keef]

As others above have said, it is NOT the easy option. I did the FAA IR in Florida earlier this year, and the standards are way higher than the IMC rating. How they compare with the JAA IR I don't know (not having the spare sack of gold to pay for all the extra training that requires). The FAA IR is certainly based on practical piloting skills and situational awareness.

The oral is about as tough as any exam you will ever do, and the flying requires you to demonstrate *everything* in the Practical Test Standards. Even the JAA IR doesn't do that.

If you have an N-reg aircraft, it gives you the same privileges as a JAA IR in a G-reg. And you don't read of US commercial aircraft getting into difficulties because the FAA IR is so "easy", do you!

[Cusco]

R-R

Having gone with Keef to Naples Air Center in Florida to (successfully) get the FAA/IR inFeb this year I can agree with most of what's been said.

Iwas expecting to knock it off in 10 days or so having had a UK IMC rating for 8 years, leaving me a few days for some aeros or a twin (JAA) rating, but I wasn't prepared for the exacting thoroughness of the instructors.

Its not that it's difficult, its just that 'nearly good enough' wasn't good enough for the instructors.

In the end I took the whole fortnight, even with allowances for my UK/IMC hours.

I was fortunate to have five days in real IMC, thanks to some unseasonal Florida weather, with 40 kt headwinds on the cross-country, and a close encounter with a lightning bolt while in an \IMC NDB hold at Fort Myers.

I fly a UK reg a/c in UK with no plans for US reg change.

So was it 'useless' ( to quote above) for me.

Sure wasn't --- it improved my IMC flying 100 fold, and my IMC confidence by a similar figure.

Probably because, unlike the IMC test where you get a choice of procedures, in the FAA/IR you know you're going to get the whole damn lot, so it concentrates the mind beautifully.


A few tips.


Do the writtens exam over here before you go (I used Tom Hughston of American Flight Training at Norwich.) And do a mock exam first. This highlights any big gaps: Tom will then give you an hour or so ground school, prior to the real test. Allow at least a half day and about GBP90.00 (Pass rate is 75%.)

But before you do that , realise that the exam is not a Micky Mouse pushover;
Do some serious reading first, TomMarchado's book is a serious light read, and the Asa books give questions from the FAA/IR exam database.(published annually)

Know you way around the USA Continental map: it can be a bit depressing in a timed exam to be asked to comment on a weather feature over Nebraska when you've no bl**dy idea where Nebraska is.

Get as high a score as you can in the written test as your 'Pass' certificate which you have to take with you has a code number on it for each question you cocked up, which your oral examiner will see and these can legitimately form part of the oral.

Go to a good school in USA and wait till your instructor says you are ready to do the Oral and Flight test.

Each can last up to two hours and each can be terminated instantly at any stage by the examiner.



Did I regard it as a useful exercise of time- you bet your sweet bippy I did.

Total cost, including good hotel accomodation about USD4,800.00

(some schools offer cheaper appartment accomodation, but I like my creature comforts (Eh, Keef?)


I personally recommend Naples Air Center, but wherever you go read the US Visa regulations: we just slipped in under the wire: now its much more stringent.

And when you get the FAA/IR just point out to the 'its only worth a JAA IMC brigade' that there are shed loads of US airline pilots in the sky as I type with the self same rating so it can't all be bad.


Whatever you do - enjoy!


Safe flying

Cusco


:)

[GoneWest]

Now, now, boys and girls - I get the impression that a momentary action of self-defence may be called for here.

Words are being twisted - or misread, either deliberately or accidental.

When I said about the FAA I/R course being about the same as a UK IMC (done in the UK, with a UK instructor [who understands the rating you are training for]) - I meant in terms of (flying) workload and skills required - and I still stick by that. Before Cusco and Keef etc. start squealing that they have both an FAA I/R and a UK IMC, so do I - and a UK I/R, too.

What I didn't say was that the groundschool is much harder - and this is partly due to lack of experience with Federal airspace and procedures. Before your IMC courses and tests you probably built up some (however little) flight experience in the UK - and you are (hopefully) familiar with things like Lapform 214 and 215. Over here, there is none of that - and, as suggested by Cusco, you get zapped with geographically based questions - not easy for us Limeys.

The CAA flight test assumes you are acting as pilot in command - hence you get a briefing before hand of the flight profile, so that you can have a mental picture of what you are trying to do....and you get to choose the approach - just as you would if you really were PIC. If that approach is not available you figure it out for yourself.

A and C - could I ask you two things?? Genuine questions - not trying to catch you with anything. Firstly what "theoretical bull" did you encounter when you did your own CAA IMC test - and secondly, what aircraft type did you use for the test...can I slide in a third question.....what altitude did you go down to on one engine during the approaches, before the Go Around??

Back to the plot.....Romeo.....you comment in your initial posting at not having many gadgets to play with. So why an instrument rating then?? You need a full IFR kit (two altimeters and FM immune radios) to go play in the airways............and some de-icing equipment would be nice (if not anti-icing) if you want to use UK airways - which was your original question.

You also ask

and how useful is it to be able to fly airways in this country anyway?

and that is what prompted the reply "worthless".

The training , I have to agree with Cusco, is invaluable - but you asked about the rating and that, I believe, is worthless for what you want to do with it

Skills - yes....value - none. You need to have the right aircraft, with the right kit, the right experience - and THE NEED to fly the aircraft in IMC. If you are staying at PPL level is it really worth the cost of completing a foreign instrument rating for your pleasure flying around the UK in an ill equipped aircraft??

I don't devalue the FAA I/R in the slightest - it works perfectly well, and I agree with the principle of "why don't all the American airplanes crash at Heathrow" argument...........but I don't see it having a USE in your PPL folder.

Do the training, by all means - you can learn a tremendous amount..........but why learn to fly a single engine approach in a twin engine aircraft into Fort Myers when you are going to fly single engine aircraft around the UK?? Heathrow is, I believe, the only airfield within the London and Scottish FIR's (which is the only place your IMC is valid), that you cannot legally fly into under IMC conditions without a full blown Instrument Rating - and I'm pretty sure that if you needed to do it in an emergency, they would let you go there anyway.

TRAINING - invaluable. RATING - worthless (for what YOU want to do with it).

You haven't yet started on the questions of keeping it current???

[slim_slag]

When I said about the FAA I/R course being about the same as a UK IMC (done in the UK, with a UK instructor [who understands the rating you are training for]) - I meant in terms of (flying) workload and skills required - and I still stick by that.

Per your statement, the freshly minted IMC pilot has the same flying skills as the freshly minted FAA IR pilot. How do you reconcile the fact that the IMC requires 15 hours and the FAA IR 40 hours?

Do you think you could ship the new 15 hood hour IMC guy over to the US and he would be able to pass the FAA IR PTS?

I simply just don't believe a guy with 15 hours under the hood could pass the practical englishal described.

My personal opinion is that you can teach the procedures in 15-20 hours, but not to FAA PTS standards. That takes a bit longer, and of course you spend 10 hours (lets say) on the x-countries.

I also think that single engine IFR in the weather found in England is quite reasonable. Plenty of places in the US have worse flying weather than the UK, and if you are not an idiot or very unlucky you will do fine.

Heathrow is, I believe, the only airfield within the London and Scottish FIR's (which is the only place your IMC is valid), that you cannot legally fly into under IMC conditions without a full blown Instrument Rating

I don't have a CAA IMC rating, and probably never will, but from what I read on the Net, the privileges it grants within these areas don't appear to be "true IMC". From what I find, visibility has to be above 3km. That means you have to be clear of clouds, can probably also see the ground, and so you are not totally on instruments. Take off and landing visibility with an IMC below cloud is 1800m. If that is correct you certainly cannot fly in clouds, unlike an FAA IR can in controlled airspace, including that around an airfield field. I can even fly with just a FAA private pilots licence in an airfield environment with less visibility!! (Special VFR, 1.6km visibility, clear of clouds).

If I misread anything you said or misunderstand IMC privileges then I will be delighted to stand corrected.[

[Evo7]

Keef/Cusco

Now that you've got the IR (an ambition of mine one day), are you attempting to keep it - both in terms of passing the checkrides to keep it legally valid and in keeping your skills in practice? How easy is it to keep an FAA IR valid in the UK?

[slim_slag]

How easy is it to keep an FAA IR valid in the UK?

As easy as it in the US, though doubtless somewhat more expensive. Here is a user friendly guide, you can find the FARs on the faa.gov web site. Just complete the requirements and log it. No need to do it in US airspace or in an N reg plane.

IFR Currency Requirements (http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/ii_9802.html)

Every six months you need to perform at least six instrument approaches, holding procedures, and intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems. Failing that, you have, as was the case with the old regs, another six months to get current before having to take an instrument proficiency check. During that six months you may not file IFR.

[Julian]

I have just renewed mine and opted for a full weekend with the aforementioned Tom Hughson up at Norwich, he certainly put me through the mill but bloody good fun and I certainly came away exhausted afterwards! You dont have to do it this way if you shoot the approaches yourself within 6 months as its self certifying but I just love pain :)

Gonewest - you may want to read the thread in 'Wannabes' as the rating is actually very usful now - the goalposts have been moved. You now get credit for holding an ICAO foreign IR rating!!! No point spending £12k on one here anymore!!!
And if you arent going that far up the ratings ladder its still useful as you can get hold on N reg hire aircraft and file IFR outside UK airspace such as during trips to France, not all of us fly in circles round the local airfield.

Julian.

[bookworm]

I don't have a CAA IMC rating, and probably never will, but from what I read on the Net, the privileges it grants within these areas don't appear to be "true IMC". From what I find, visibility has to be above 3km. That means you have to be clear of clouds, can probably also see the ground, and so you are not totally on instruments. Take off and landing visibility with an IMC below cloud is 1800m. If that is correct you certainly cannot fly in clouds, unlike an FAA IR can in controlled airspace, including that around an airfield field. I can even fly with just a FAA private pilots licence in an airfield environment with less visibility!! (Special VFR, 1.6km visibility, clear of clouds).

If I misread anything you said or misunderstand IMC privileges then I will be delighted to stand corrected.

I'm pleased to be able to delight you then! :)

An IMC-rated pilot in classes D to G airspace is limited only by the restriction that the visibility for take-off and landing must be at least 1800 m. Flight can certainly be in IMC, and in cloud. Apart from the visibility restriction, it differs from the privileges of the IR only in that IFR in classes A to C are not permitted (as well as a slightly quirky increase in vis for SVFR to 3 km).

The details are in Schedule 8 of the ANO.

Moral: Don't believe everything you read on the Net.

[Fuji Abound]

A couple of additional thoughts. Firstly as we all know the IMC rating is strictly only valid in the UK (although I have heard rumours yet to be confirmed that the Germans and French may take a different view). Therefore if you can operate on the N reg at least you can continue to fly in lower airspace in poorer conditions even if you are not able to operate airways because of lack of aircraft performance or of de/anti icing etc. Secondly there are those occasions in the UK where the flight can be executed more comfortably and safely in class A that would otherwise not be available.

[englishal]

Its very easy to keep the FAA IR current. All you need is you and your pilot mate. So long as you have 6 approaches, navigation by use of navaids, and holding procedures in you log book for the past 6 months, then you are current. You fly under the hood while your mate keep a good look out. And if your mate happens to be flying under the FAR's the time he or she spends as safety pilot can count as PIC for them.

Painless really.

Cheers
EA:)

[Keef]

GoneWest - nice rhetoric, but wrong.

I did the IMC rating, and used it in anger and frequently (deliberately). That IN NO WAY prepared me for what I was expected to do in terms of accuracy of flying for the FAA IR.

The "US geography and charts etc differences" are minor compared with the "quality of flying" requirements. Maybe NAC and the FAA examiner I had weren't typical - I dunno - but they certainly expected far better than the IMC rating examiner and renewal CFIs here.

Yes, I do plan to keep the FAA IR current. Most trips of any distance with another of our group, I take my hood and do the necessary tracking, holds, approaches, etc.

The plan - soon- is to put the group aircraft onto the N-reg, which will mean we can fly IFR outside the UK.

[Keef]

Pre-JAA, Germany had a rating called a CVFR (Controlled VFR) which was needed to fly in - I think - Class D and higher airspace. I don't know if it still exists under JAA.

Anyway, an IMC rating was accepted, in those days, as being equivalent to a CVFR rating.

I've not heard anything about CVFR or IMC since JAA. Bookworm is the only person I know who might...

[Julian]

I know one thing and thats that after 15 hours into the IR course I did not feel ready to be let lose in full IMC conditions!

The FAA IR is a damn good course and I was lucky to do a lot of it actual IMC conditions. Its is also bloody hard and I think to say its the same as the IMC is either being economic with the truth or they cut a lot of your course out! I was undertaking new exercises every day as well as brushing up on previously practiced ones, how you can do that in 15 hours I will never know.

[slim_slag]

bookworm

I'm pleased to be able to delight you then!

Thankyou! :)

Also thanks for pointing me to the definitive source on the internet HSMO (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm).

Having read that I admit to being confused, but that's fine. Not only is the SVFR visibility rules a quirk, the whole airspace classification system seems strange, but that's fine too! I have flown in hard IMC in class E airspace in the UK (with suitably rated individual in G reg plane), and not liked the fact that I am responsible for separation in clouds, but I guess that's how it goes.

I get the impression that the "powers that be" are being pragmatic with the English weather so they have allowed people to fly in clouds. As long as you don't "mix it" with the big boys and hurt somebody in their "positively controlled" airspace they don't appear to be too worried. I guess its a tacit admission that the IMC is sub ICAO IR, or else they would let IMC holders play in the airways :D

Can I ask a stupid question? What is the definition of a control zone? Is that just somewhere you need a clearance to enter, like an airway (is that class B in the UK???) Would class D airspace around a towered field be a control zone?

regards

[andrewc]

I've just passed my UK IMC test today...:p

I've a touring aircraft (SR-22), that the variability of the
UK weather makes distinctly unreliable as a mode of
transport without the ability to climb and descend
through clouds.

I'm keeping N741CD on the the US register and
am planning to take a US IR course next year as
hopefully that will develop my flying skills significantly.

slim_slag

Yes, IMC is sub-IR, but it is set at a level where it is
genuinely useful and realistically maintainable by non
commercial pilots.

-- Andrew

[GoneWest]

Bored with this now - last post (which should please some of you!!).

Romeo - I really don't give a stuff, go ahead, spend your $6,000. I've already got mine, so don't care. You asked for opinions - and I still say, an FAA I/R in your pocket will be worthless for what you are currently doing. The TRAINING will be invaluable.

I thought I had read somewhere on this thread - that you intended to put an aircraft on the US register...then that would be a different proposition - and even the rating may be of great value (though I still wonder as to why you would want to fly a pleasure trip in weather that requires an I/R. One of the things that I/R training teaches you is when NOT to fly).

If you decide to use the rating as a stepping stone towards the JAA rating (as mentioned by QNH) then don't forget to take into account that you still require the written exams and they are very similar to the commercial ones that you do not want to take.

andrewc - congrats on your rating, if you do decide to go ahead with the I/R (which does make sense for you, if you have access to an N reg aircraft [assuming it is suitably equipped]), I would also recommend Naples Air Center. I've seen them - and their instructors and examiners - in action. Keef and Cusco are right.

Julian/slim slag - I never suggested that the 15 hours minimum flown on an IMC rating was enough....and

slim slag - the profile written by englishal was clearly for a multi engine aircraft. I admit I'm reading between the lines, but I don't get the feeling from Romeos message that he/she is an experienced multi engine pilot. You are right, however, 15 hours would not be anywhere near enough to fly that profile.

Interested to note, however, that ratings now seem to be graded on how many hours it takes to do the course. Up until now, any comments about the difference between JAA and FAA ratings has always been countered with "an ILS is the same in any country" - but now you have changed it to hours flown.....

How do you reconcile the fact that the IMC requires 15 hours and the FAA IR 40 hours?

Are you now saying that the 40 hours FAA course is less than 80% as good as the 55 hour JAA course??

I don't have a CAA IMC rating, - then I feel you may not be qualified to discuss the merits of the two flight test standards.

A and C - I ask again,

what "theoretical bull" did you encounter when you did your own CAA IMC test - and secondly, what aircraft type did you use for the test...can I slide in a third question.....what altitude did you go down to on one engine during the approaches, before the Go Around??

Keef -

I did the IMC rating, and used it in anger and frequently (deliberately).

...then you are an idiot. The IMC rating is not designed for you to PLAN to fly in weather that requires you to hold one.....and I'm sorry that your original flying school, in the UK, let you down so badly -

but they certainly expected far better than the IMC rating examiner and renewal CFIs here.

....they should have expected the same. Perhaps you looked around to find the school that would give you the rating for the least financial outlay. As you have read, so many times, on these message boards "cheapest is not the best" - and the school obviously let you down.

[slim_slag]

andrewc

I am with gonewest in congratulating you on your new rating.

Yes, IMC is sub-IR, but it is set at a level where it is genuinely useful and realistically maintainable by non commercial pilots.

I think it is a pragmatic response from a regulatory regime in a cloudy country that does not want PPLs mixing it up with jets. Don't get impressed because somebody has a CPL, it's no big deal, you can do it too :)

gonewest

you ask too many questions for somebody who is bored with this subject :)

I'll let englishal speak for himself, but the flight he described is pretty standard for a FAA single engine IR practical.

Around here, you might get IFR clearance from class D, depart, over to Approach, ILS into class D, missed, cancel IFR, back to Approach, NDB into class D, missed, steep turns, unusual attitudes, whatever the DE want to throw at you, back to Approach, VOR into untowered, missed, holds, back home. It's the workload that will cause you to fail, all that having to work with the guy who himself is busy working the airlines coming into the Class B. All it takes is not identing the ILS and you bust!

All single engine stuff too! If englishal was doing a multi-rating IR he would have mentioned something like the DE failing an engine when just established in the localiser. Reading between the lines of course :)

Are you now saying that the 40 hours FAA course is less than 80% as good as the 55 hour JAA course??

Who knows, I have seen CAA IR students fly perfect figure of eights around an NDB in the sim, there is no way an FAA IR student could do that. So maybe in JAA land you need the extra hours to perfect procedures you will never do in FAA land :) I do know that you will not get an FAA IR unless you are pretty damned good. Same for a CAA IR I am sure.

I think I said 15-20 hours is enough to teach the procedures, but not to FAA standards. Maybe CAA IMC standards are such that you can do it in 15 hours. Wouldn't surprise me, it is not an ICAO IR. I do know that I would not get in a plane in IMC with a 15 hour hood guy - well I would if I sat in the front :D

then I feel you may not be qualified to discuss the merits of the two flight test standards.

OK by me if you want to to think that way.

So can anybody tell me what the definition of a control zone in the UK system is?

Found it!

ANO Definition of control zone (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm#129)

'Control zone' means controlled airspace which has been further notified as a control zone and which extends upwards from the surface;

[Julian]

Gonewest - I was referring to my experience during the IR course in general terms, the fact that I would not have gone into IMC after 15 hours. I am glad I did the full FAA IR course for just a bit more money than the IMC would have cost here in the UK.

Confused as to why you think it was aimed at you?

Julian.

[englishal]

Yep, the profile I described was a SE IR check ride in an Archer III.

Cheers
EA:)

[Fuji Abound]

I am not sure if it is a bit of topic but I think some practical appraisal of the IMC is useful. Some of the contributors suggest it is a “get you out of trouble” rating and certainly not to be used in earnest. Now accepting for a moment the training required is some way short of an IR, you should at least be safe to transit a cloud layer. Moreover you should be safe to set up for a hold and a descent in circumstances where you become visual with a comfortable margin above terra firma. How well whilst making your transition through IMC you might cope with a complete vac failure maybe is questionable but it seems to me it is questionable for IR holders as well particularly if the flight is to continue in IMC. (See the recent report about a group of IR holders subject to just this in the sim and note their poor ability to cope). There are many occasions in the UK where the flight can be conducted in far greater comfort on top of an inversion or on top of a static overcast between 1500 and 2500 agl out of all the clag beneath. With an IMC in my view this becomes possible and safe with reliable destination weather information. In short if you chose your day carefully, plan well and are prepared to accept you might be more comfortable ending up at a suitable alternate the IMC rating is of great use. It all seems to me like anything the more experience you gain, the more you fly with others of greater experience with whom you extend the boundaries, the greater your ability to cope with weather. I wonder whether an IMC holder who does just this, and is very current, is as good, or better than some IR holders. Now I am not suggesting some one with an IMC is as well able to cope as his IR counterpart after having completed the course. I am suggesting that maybe if he has sought out sound continuation training to get him up to a similar standard and that with practice and experience he may end up better. For what it is worth I know when I completed my IMC I would have felt happy transiting layers to VMC on top (and we all know about making sure the weather doesn’t close in beneath), I would not have felt happy about an hour or more in solid IMC but probably would have coped so long as nothing failed, and I would have felt very unhappy about having to execute an unexpected diversion that ended up requiring a procedure with which I was not familiar down to minimum. And finally by "better" what I mean is ones ability to cope safely and comfortably with the situation, I am not about getting into a discussion as to whether one pilot is any better, after all we all just want to be safe in the circumstances in which we fly.

[A and C]

It was a long time ago when I did my IMC test and that was very practical as was the ground exam.

My comments are for the benifit of the people who see the FAA as the easy option for an IR , in terms of a flying test the FAA IR is a much harder practical flying test than the very contrived structure CAA IR test.

How ever the ground exams for the CAA IR include fuel flight planing based on the VC 10 and a whole lot of other theoetical stuff of little practical use like plotting.

I would encorage all pilots to improve there flying skills by doing an IR but the european authoritys seem to want to put as meny things in the way of the PPL IR as they can , some on this side of the atlantic see the FAA IR as second class , this it is NOT except in terms of cash spent to get it , use the american system to improve your skills at a cost that you can afford and then fly an american registered aircraft in europe and forget the JAA and all its burocratic bull.

[Keef]

Gonewest

Thanks for your opinion. You aren't the first to call me an idiot, and assuredly won't be the last.

My IMC instructor (one of the most experienced in the UK) trained me to fly in IMC with the IMC rating, which is what the rating is for.

The fact that some self-appointed experts have decided to call it a "get out of trouble rating" is their problem, not mine. That's not what the CAA says.

Nor did I shop around for the cheapest - I prefer quality. Which is why I chose NAC when I went to the US for the IR.

But the facts remain: the standards and level of the FAA IR are way higher than the UK IMC rating. Sorry if you don't like that. Start by looking at the height-keeping and track-keeping requirements.

[slim_slag]

But the facts remain: the standards and level of the FAA IR are way higher than the UK IMC rating. Sorry if you don't like that. Start by looking at the height-keeping and track-keeping requirements.

I was trying to work out what the IMC rating lets you do in practice, but that 'control zone' thing confused me. Seems like the definition of a 'control zone' is something that has been defined to be a 'control zone'. :)

So if I was to get permission to shoot an ILS into Gatwick (class D) with my IMC rating, what would the cloud/visibility/DH/RVR be?

If I was in the States, a PPL with IR could shoot an ILS with DH of 200ft and RVR of 1800ft. It is also possible for a PPL with IR to get a Cat II waiver - 100ft DH and 1200ft RVR. Believe it or not, you can even get to do that in your putz around Warrior! Essentially you just go shoot an approach with an FAA inspector.

Can a CAA PPL I/R shoot Cat II in a warrior??

[A and C]

The limits for an aproach for an IMC holder are what ever is states on the approach plate +px error corection (if eny).

The CAA "recomend" not below 500 ft/agl for a precision app and 600 ft/agl for a non-precision app ,this i think is a good idea.

To answer the question above if the PA28 met the equipment requirments for CAT2/3 and the pilots had passed an aproved training course for the aircraft then an IMC rating holder could make a CAT2/3 aproach , however the this is not a practical reality.

[PFLsAgain]

Just received my GASCO mag. and it has an article in it about keeping an IMC current. They are recommending going out and deliberately flying IMC. The rationale appears to be that a current IMC is valuable, whereas having one but not using it is practically worthless. So where does this leave the "it's for getting out of trouble only" viewpoint? Is the GASCO article fairly representative of the CAA's viewpoint?

I don't want to provoke argument, but would like some informed answers. I'm a low time PPL just embarking on my IMC. With very, very limited IMC time indeed, all I can say is that I find it interesting, fun, challenging, and would ultimately love to do an IR, if only for the experience of it (if only the JAA IR was not such a big outlay!). In just a few hours of the IMC course I have already learned stuff that has genuinely improved my VMC flying.

[englishal]

The IMC rating is a very useful rating to have. Its important whether a person has an IR or an IMC to use it in my opinion, start off slowly with nice marine layer type IMC, and work you way up to frontal stuff....

To drum home the difference between the FAA IR and the IMC rating, ask youself how you would feel about navigating you way
around here (http://www.digital-reality.co.uk/ifr.htm) in turbulent IMC, with ATC vectoring you off course every few minutes and then getting you to 'resume own navigation', ammending your clearance, and finally finishing up with an approach down to minimums?

Cheers
EA :)

[Crowe]

i think the arguments above ignore currency, which from my own experience is the main factor in flying decently on instruments.

Take two pilots, one passed his IR eleven months ago, it's valid, he can fly airways and ILS down to 200', but hasn't flown for six months.

The other guy has an IMC rating, and has flown IFR and some NDB and ILS approaches in the last week.

If you were a non-pilot pax, who do you want flying you down in pretty standard UK conditions of clouds at 600' asl?

It's not the rating, it's the guy flying and what he's done lately that counts.

[A and C]

the nail hit firmly on the head !.

[bookworm]

Policy Information/Update - JAR IR Training/Credits for ICAO IR Holders (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/whatsnew.asp) appears to be very pertinent to this thread.

[slim_slag]

Bookworm, do you think there is a typo in there?

The holder of an ATPL(A) or CPL(A)/IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 who meets the 1500 hours flying experience requirements on multi-pilot aeroplanes (as PIC or co-pilot) of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.015 may be exempted from the requirements of the IR(A) modular course prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations and the IR(A) Skill Test.
It used to be ICAO ATP and 500 hours on multi pilot planes to get a exemption from full ATPL course, have they bumped this up?

[Field In Sight]

I know this is a bit late for this topic but I have just read the following in a CAA "Safety Sense" document i.e. from the Horses mouth.

"Loss of Control in IMC

All but one of the pilots killed when
they lost control in IMC were flying
in instrument conditions without an
Instrument Rating. This is extremely
unwise to say the least. Possibly they
believed that their IMC rating was
sufficient for prolonged, intentional
flight in instrument conditions.
Unfortunately, the IMC rating is not
sufficient for such conditions. It
should only be regarded as a
minimum skill to ‘get out of trouble'"

[Romeo Romeo]

I've read that statistic as well. However, I'm not too sure how significant it is. Quite a few pilots have IMC ratings - not many have IR's. Therefore if the ratio of IMC's to IR's is 30:1 (I've no idea what the real figures are), if there are 31 deaths and 30 of them are IMC rated and 1 is an IR, then statistically the IR is just as safe as the IMC.

As others have stated, one of the big factors is how current you are.