Emergency helicopter on standby

[Border]

I am a ppl (h) holder working in Morocco as a crane operator on the edge of the Sahara desert putting up wind turbines, my company have asked me to source a helicopter and have it on standby on site in case of an emergency as the nearest hospital is 2 hours away by road.
My question is, as I am a ppl (h) holder would I be legally be able to fly it isn case of an emergency, I won't be getting paid for it in anyway whatsoever.
Thank you.

[26500lbs]

In my opinion you should stay well clear. By the description you have provided, it will be in direct support of and is being requested by a commercial operation for commercial purposes. Renumeration financially or not, it is a standby emergency helicopter, which is not pleasure flying for private purposes.
There are a whole host of other issues, legal and practical that make this very dodgy ground. Do you hold a license that allows you to fly in that country? Do you have all the relevant training and experience to operate in the desert with passengers on board? Is the helicopter certified for patient transport?
Without wanting to sound condescending, there is no such thing as a “simple helicopter for emergency standby”. It is a complex operation that needs correct supervision, planning and support. It is fraught with risk that you are clearly not fully aware of, and needs to be well planned and executed by experienced personnel. Even if you hold a CPL, I would suggest to operate in such a fashion you will need an AOC that encompasses some form of Special Operations in the Ops Manual such as HEMS or Ambulance flying as well as maintenance procedures for basing a helicopter in the field.
If the company needs an emergency helicopter on standby and it has been highlighted in the risk assessment of the operation, they need to pay for it. There will be undoubtedly local companies that can provide this. The local CAA needs to be informed and I suggest they will not allow such an operation. By not informing them, I would expect that if you arrive unannounced as an unregistered ambulance at a hospital in town with a helicopter, the sh!t would start to roll.
Bottom line - this is a commercial operation and must be treated as such, not just with regards to licensing but also to registration and legality of the company providing this.

[hueyracer]

It does not matter whether you are getting paid or not-this would be a COMMERCIAL operation......

[HeliHenri]

.
Helo Border,
Regardless of the regulation, just curious to know what type of helicopters you're flying and which type you would choose for that purpose ?
.

[ShyTorque]

I won't be getting paid for it in anyway whatsoever.

You are a professional crane driver, not a professional helicopter pilot. If you flew it as part of your working day, you ARE getting paid so the authorities would view it differently.

[chopjock]

Sounds like this is what you want to hear... (Devil's advocate)
The company you work for wants to have a helicopter to transport it's employees from A to B? It shouldn't be too difficult to do. Companies all over the world do that. Mine included.
Obviously you will need a suitable machine and a suitable license.
I know of companies that operate their own machines, for business use / staff transport etc, so it's not public transport nor an AOC operation. So no need for a commercial licensed pilot either (provided of course the pilot is not being paid as a pilot!).
Check with the local aviation authority if you can operate an N reg aircraft, if so get an airman certificate piggy back license and off you go... :}

[Wageslave]

You are a professional crane driver, not a professional helicopter pilot. If you flew it as part of your working day, you ARE getting paid so the authorities would view it differently.

Very much doubt that. See chopjock's post. That seems to state the real legal position.

Whether what is proposed is a good idea is another matter, but legally I doubt there is much to say about it.

I'm intrigued to know what "certified for patient transport" is, or why there is no such thing as a “simple helicopter for emergency standby". Are you forbidden to use a helo for "patient transport" without an extra burden of licensing? How would you fly someone with a cold in that case? Surely all helos, simple and complex, are capable of use in all sorts of "standby" modes without additional licensing.

If some poor sod needs a casevac does 26500lbs suggest it can't be done in the simple company pickup used for emergency standby with a crane driver at the wheel? Whyever not? Just because he isn't paid as an ambulance driver, has no casevac training and no taxi driver's licence? Or the pickup isn't "certified" for "patient transport"... the mind boggles.

So, in principle and as long, as far as I recall, that the "primary duty" of the driver isn't stated as "helicopter pilot" he probably could fly it quite legally.

But by the time you'd sourced a helo, ferried it there and arranged it's maintenance it would soon become a financial millstone without justifying it's existence on a regular basis and that probably would require a dedicated pilot. That might well require some extra training but even so not at all sure you'd need to be commercial licensed if the job was entirely in-house. After all, US cops fly Police helos on PPLs, don't they, on the basis that they are cops primarily and pilots second? CHIPS don't need taxi licences to drive cop cars with "customers" in them, do they?

I get the feeling that some of the posts above are rather long on knee-jerk and equally short on facts.

[Border]

Hi guys, thank you for the input,I am only enquiring what the legality for me would be, the heli would not be used for ferrying passengers around, where I am working the are lots of snakes and scorpions and the company were just enquiring about having a helicopter on standby in case of a fellow worker getting bitten, I am an advanced qualified first aider, also a qualified mechanic and a 1200 ton crane operator.
Where we are working there are no helicopters available, we can get a fixed wing but a landing strip would be quite difficult to organise, yes my company pay me to operate a crane but to fly the aircraft would be at my own expense, in other words, if I was to fly someone to the hospital I would classed as not on site so I'd loose pay for every hour I wasn't there to operate my crane.
I'm still a bit confused because of the conflicting replies, hopefully someone can shed a bit more light on it for me please.

[26500lbs]

Oh dear Wageslave...why bother with licensing at all? For gods sake....if he is carrying a patient, who is working for a commercial operation, the same comercial operation he is working for and being paid for, and this helicopter is tasked to the commercial operation for the sole task of emergency evacuation, how can this not be classified as a commercial tasking operation?
There is a bloody good reason we have CAA’s and regulation and one of the main reasons is to prevent daft ideas surfacing that will be more of a danger than a safety precaution.
This is in every way a commercial operation and as such requires authorisation from the relevant authority. They will require a number of details including training details of the pilot intending to fly on their territory, details of how the aircraft is intended to be used and what procedures said company has in place including risk analysis as well as if the aircraft is suitable for the intended tasking. The local CAA is responsible for ensuring safe practises in their territory and will be taking their own risk assessment as to how safe it is to have an aircraft operating in desert and flying to their hospitals. The implications of an accident on their ground and the resources they require to deal with such an incident will come into play. Exactly why they will want to see and OMA and AOC. Your comparison with police is ridiculous and whilst maybe possible to fly in the US with a PPLH it is not in europe and i have no idea what the regulations are in Morocco but they have a number of agreements with EASA so I would be surprised if it is very different. Additionally the police have an AOC and are approved by the CAA to operate in this fashion having provided evidence of capability and training.
Again bottom line - this is a commercial operation. Check again the privileges of an EASA PPLH (I assume as he is from Ireland it is EASA) and ask yourself honestly if you think they allow this. It is direct tasking whilst at work. It is not the same as driving a truck for all sorts of reasons, not least of which because like it or not there is legislation that says it is not.

[26500lbs]

Border - contact the Moroccan CAA and ask direct. Also contact your own CAA as they are responsible for issuing your license. You will get an more accurate reply with the correct documentation and references. I dont know you or your experience, but I would also seriously consider whether you feel adequately trained. I have flown a fair bit in the desert environment and a lot can go wrong quickly and you may not know what you are letting yourself in for.

[Border]

I have approx 2000 hrs as a ppl (h) on R44 and Bell 206 and thank you, I will follow up on your reply.

[Fun Police]

"yes my company pay me to operate a crane but to fly the aircraft would be at my own expense, in other words, if I was to fly someone to the hospital I would classed as not on site so I'd loose pay for every hour I wasn't there to operate my crane."

really? they asked you to do this and then told you the above??

fp

[Sir Korsky]

A crane driver with 2000 hours of fun time. How do I get to become a crane driver? I'm definitely on the wrong side of the fence!:E

[albatross]

Think about this:
You get a Bung Vertileap 2000 or whatever helicopter. Who's going to maintain it?
Day VFR only? Don't believe it for a moment.
Rupert gets bitten by a viper at 0200 in the morning because he couldn't see the snake in the sandstorm.
Guess what - everyone is going to want you to fire that baby up and fly Rupert to the hospital. NOW - if not sooner.
Night or Weather, how long you worked that day, how current you are will not count. The pressure that will be put upon you will be incredible.

Plus - if you roll it up in a ball - you will probably end up in jail.

That's my thoughts on the matter.

[ShyTorque]

know of companies that operate their own machines, for business use / staff transport etc, so it's not public transport nor an AOC operation. So no need for a commercial licensed pilot either (provided of course the pilot is not being paid as a pilot!).

Yes, I know of companies that do that, too. I work for one of them. I'm just the odd job man and pot washer, too. But the CAA insist I hold a commercial licence to fly the owner's private, non AOC helicopter.

[Border]

To the genuine guys who give me a reply to my genuine question I thank you, as for the piss takers, kindly keep you're smart answers to yourself thank you. I am a safe pilot and I don't take chance hence my question, I became a pilot 10 yrs ago and I am still learning, you never stop learning and you won't know the answer unless you ask the question, whether it's the answers I want to hear or not, I will always abide by the law.
For people's benefit I work 10 to 12 hours a day, we work days, not nights as was suggested and how I got my hours was because I work dam hard for what I've got and I am blessed to be in a good job that pays well and let's me fly how and when I want.
Thanks again for the genuine answers.

[cattletruck]

There is a big diff in flying one and operating one, the latter involves about 10 times more paperwork.

Sounds like you already got the best of both worlds anyway. If I were in your situation I wouldn't budge unless the company paid for the CPL and TR in their time.

[SilsoeSid]

I find it quite amusing 'Border' that you've come on here asking such a complicated question and then have a go at the regulars here when they give you their answers. If you are such a "safe pilot that doesn't take chances", why not ask the relevant authority for the true answers to all your questions? You would then avoid any of the potholes in the minefield that you are trying to cross.

You say that you will 'always abide by the law regarding the questions you ask, whether you like the answers or not'. I would suggest that here is the wrong place to ask those questions if you want answers .... however, if you want opinions, there is no better place than here. Remember though that opinions have no standing in a court of law when it all goes wrong.

p.s.
If you work 10-12 hrs a day, how do you get the time to fly 'how and when you want'?
When you say you get to fly 'how you want', as you emphasise yourself to be a safe pilot, what does that 'how you want' actually mean?

[chopjock]

26500, how can this not be classified as a commercial tasking operation?

Ok who is the fare paying pax? Is money being paid for the purpose of the flight?
If it's all provided FOC by the company, for it's own employees only, how can that be a commercial operation with respect to the flight?

[26500lbs]

Ok who is the fare paying pax? Is money being paid for the purpose of the flight?
If it's all provided FOC by the company, for it's own employees only, how can that be a commercial operation with respect to the flight?

The pax I fly everyday dont pay for it themselves either, their employer does. I am only taking them to and from work. Its provided FOC by their company. Commercial operation does not just mean the pax are paying for the seats themselves. It is for a commercial purpose. I would suggest money is being paid for the purpose of the flight, if only in running costs. I doubt the pilot is gonna pay all the maintenance and administrative costs, fuel, spares and technical support. How do your really think and insurance company is going to view this if it goes wrong? A helicopter is sourced and moved to a location for the specific role of transporting the companies personnel in case of an accident. The passenger/patient is being paid by the company and they task the helicopter to transport him. They have paid for the helicopter and just because they are not paying the pilot directly, they are still paying him for other work he does for them. You dont think they will view this as a commercial operation?

[homonculus]

Border

I suspect this is really a wind up - surprised nobody picked you up on your claim you were a qualified first aider and mechanic :D

Get real young man. You colleague gets bitten. Or hit on the head with your crane. Unconscious, no blood pressure. etc etc. How are you going to get the stretcher in a 44.... or a 206...... and are you going to be managing the patient in the back at the same time as you are up front driving? Never mind, when you break it you will be able to mend it :mad:

[Nubian]

26500,

This is in every way a commercial operation and as such requires authorisation from the relevant authority.

Really!? If the company only fly it's own employees in case of emergency, and they don't charge for this ''service'' it is not for ''remuneration or hire'' and therefore not commercial air transport.
There are as Chop says, many operations around the world which is legally flying corporate (if you understand that term) which is not commercial air transport, whether you like it or not!

Why does everyone here use the UK or EASA regulation as reference for all aviation related matters in the world?? There is quite a few countries that is not subject to this set of regulations..... thank god!

Border,
In this case I would ask the Moroccan CAA about their regulations before venturing further into asking armchair experts about their opinion, as you would get about as many different opinions as you get answers.

Have you tried to contact Heliconia? They operate all over Morocco with a variety of helicopters, and an agreement with them would probably be the best overall solutions in any case.

[Bravo73]

Why does everyone here use the UK or EASA regulation as reference for all aviation related matters in the world?? There is quite a few countries that is not subject to this set of regulations..... thank god!


Don't worry. 26500lbs doesn't even seem to be referring to UK or EASA regulations. See Shytorque's post above.

[hueyracer]

Really!? If the company only fly it's own employees in case of emergency, and they don't charge for this ''service'' it is not for ''remuneration or hire'' and therefore not commercial air transport.


Really?

Don´t ever tell that to CHC...to Bristow....or any other commercial operator.....the big companies-Total, Tallow-You name them-would LOVE to do the work themselves then....much cheaper for them.

A commercial license is required.

But i smell crap anyway....come on....a crane driver flying 200 hours a year over 10 years, accumulating 2000 hours?
I know commercial pilots flying way less than 200 hours a year......
:ugh:

[SASless]

But it does show the pay scale difference between skilled labor and Pilots.:E

[chopjock]

hueyracer
Don´t ever tell that to CHC...to Bristow....or any other commercial operator.

CHC, Bristow, Bond etc are all providing a chargeable service to a customer, so obviously it's CAT.

[ShyTorque]

Chop jock, so in your operation, the pilot using his PPL and his pax will all share the actual costs of the flight, won't they? :hmm:

[chopjock]

so in your operation, the pilot using his PPL and his pax will all share the actual costs of the flight, won't they

We are not talking about my operation and no, they won't.

[Nubian]

Huey,

Nope, you don't get it.
I've already told the OP what would probably be the best solution to the question (if it infact is a genuine post) and I don't think his own idea is a good one, but for legal matters (not knowing the Moroccan regs) I just question the personal opinions that some have here.

An example from the US.
You might be familiar with FAR-Part 61.113 Private pilot privileges
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

So, lets say ''Bob's Wind-farms'' in Oklahoma would buy their own helicopter for the odd rattlesnake-bite as they are working far away from a hospital and their crane-operator is a private pilot, they could very well do this as it would be incidental to the business(unless this was a thing that happened several times a day), and the pax would not pay for the flight....

Now, as I don't know the local regulations in Morocco I can't say this is the case there, but I find it hard to believe that this would only be possible in the US.
Or maybe it is a ''only in America thing''