Winter Flying: New PPL/What aircraft?

[jjoe]

Hello All,

I have been lurking on this site for ages , whilst training for my PPL.
It arrived a couple of weeks ago -Yippee!

I have nosied around the archives new and old and tried to get a feel for what new PPL-holders do and some great threads and stories on that topic.

I was wondering what sort and frequency of flying people tend to do at this time of year when, it would seem a lot of SEP aircraft are tied down/wrapped up for the winter? But some glorious days/wx.

I have yet to fly since the GST and it almost seems like an anti-climax and quite a lonely prospect as I would like to change my 'home' airfield/school for various reasons.

What would you recommend in the Midlands and how far would people travel to fly for an hour or so?

My family have been soooo patient and I need to get them up but slowly and one at a time I think!

I've learned on C152's and still grappling with which aircraft next -would it be wise to start on a different a/c ,say 172, immediately and consolidate the 'conversion' straight away or stick with 152 - I've had various 'quotes' from 'shouldn't take an hour' to '6/7! hours' for that simple check ride!

I also have the desire for limited aerobatics- would a Beagle Pup 150 be suitable for this profile and what extra costs/maintenance would that incur against one that wasn't aerobatted? Is there any point to a Pup 150 that isn't aerobatted? - I have a soft spot for the Pup.

Many thanks for your thoughts. I know that's a big ask.

I realise that although many names on this site are almost 'close friends' having read their posts for so long, I am a newbie so please excuse my 'overfamiliarity' if it takes over!

JJOE

[foxmoth]

Congrats on the licence.
No reason not to move on to a C172 or the Pup, either of those should take around an hour to check out on - though there is no guarantee as it does depend on your ability, I would be very surprised if it took you as many as 6!
As far as airfields go it is a good idea to try for one with a hard runway if you want to fly much in the winter, though, unless you buy your own it may be a case of where the aircraft type you want can be found and convenience for getting there, the easier it is to get there the more you will fly.
Pup150 is a lovely aircraft to fly, not sure of maintainance costs if you buy though, nice for the basic Aeros, and if you do not turn it upside down it is still nicer to fly than a Cessna or Piper, though really only a 2+2 rather than a full 4 seater.:ok:

[piperboy84]

Congrats on the license, some of the best flying to be had is during winter. Nothing like a cold, crisp clear morning for aircraft performance and views of the hills with snow on them.

[India Four Two]

jjoe,

Congratulations on obtaining your licence.

I agree with foxmoth - about one hour to convert to a 172. Stay away from anyone who wants you to do 6/7 hours - they just want to empty your wallet.

The 172 is a lovely aeroplane and is my preferred choice for passenger sight-seeing flights, but of course it is more expensive to fly. Since you said you want to fly your family "one at a time", I would stick to the 152 for passenger flying. It's much more fun for the passenger to be up front and you have less distractions with no one in the back.

You said you haven't flown since your test, I would recommend several flights before you start carrying passengers. Get comfortable with making your own decisions. Depending on your comfort level, you could start with a flight in the practice area, followed by some circuits or you could plan a cross-country to an airfield you have been to before.

If the weather is good, there is no reason not to fly in the winter - in Canada, we routinely fly VFR on nice days, with temperatures as low as -20° C. The pluses of winter flying are that bookings are easier, the airspace is less busy and the aircraft performs better because of the low temperatures. However, don't forget to take some warm clothes, in case you end up stranded in a field somewhere and if you are flying over any remote terrain, consider a basic survival kit - at the very least a sleeping bag and a decent first-aid kit.

If you have extra money, do try aerobatics. You might as well do that in a taildragger like a Citabria. Then you will have learnt extra skills, which even in a tricycle gear aircraft, will stand you in good stead.

I see my mate pb84 chipped in while I was typing. He's allowed to spell licence with an 's', because he flies an N reg aircraft. ;)

[A le Ron]

I fully agree with both the last two posters. Move up to the C172 or something similar. A one hour conversion should suffice. You will find the 172 much nicer to fly (although I owned a 150 and flew nearly 300 hours in it, utterly loved it; but never regretted trading up, in my case to a Cherokee 180, and subsequently a turbo arrow).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally I prefer the C152 - the C172 is much heavier on the controls, and being a shortarse I can't see over the instrument panel properly.

Any of the common fixed-gear singles: C150, C172, PA28, AA5, PA38, Pup... should take 60-90 minutes to get checked out, and there's absolutely no reason not to do so and then expand your flying horizons.

Just do your homework - manuals, checklists, airport rules, local area before flying anything for a checkout, and you should sail through.


Sywell and Duxford are worthwhile midlands destinations with stuff to do, also have a look at Halfpenny Green, which is always very friendly.

Britain has less good flying days in winter than summer, but when you get those good flying days, they can be spectactularly good. There is some sense in avoiding grass runways unless there's been a longish dry spell.

G

[jjoe]

Thanks for all replies -very good advice to help decide.
What would be considered 'similar' to the c172 and generally available- I presume PA's as club workhorses?

Do you think that aerobatics, however limited, in a shared aeroplane say , are a short-lived luxury- my thinking is that the majority of passengers would 'expect' at least a 'loop the loop' -(I detest the term and know it's a 'loop' but you know what I mean) as even I find A to B so hideously boring that I'd want to do 'max-rate ' turns or spiral dives just to feel some 'g'!

Is this just newbie naivety? I rarely came across any current aerobatic or for that matter IFR or 'night rated' pilots during PPL training- are they so rare at this level? (Not that I have any desire to fly at night but it's oft quoted as something else to do next!) They'd either done some and given up or not done any for years and changed the subject quickly!

Thanks again

[jjoe]

Sorry Genghis, missed your reply whilst typing- are you available?:O
Thanks.
JJOE

[India Four Two]

jjoe,

I think you would be surprised how few passengers would actually want to do aerobatics and even those that say they do, might not actually like the experience.

Remember that in a 60° banked steep-turn, you are only pulling 2g. In a loop, the entry and exit are going to be between 3g and 4g and over the top probably less than 1g. Many licenced pilots have never experienced more than 2g. For passengers, it could be a very unsettling experience.

When I take non-pilots flying, I limit the bank angles to less than 20° if possible.

If you do take up aerobatics, do it solo or with another qualified pilot. It's not the type of flying to demonstrate to friends, until you are very experienced.

One more piece of advice - don't do spiral dives for fun. It's OK during training but they are potentially dangerous - it's easy to overstress an aircraft. It's much better to practice coordinated 60° banked turns - it is very satisfying when you hit your slipstream.

One last thought. When carrying passengers, always have a sick bag handy. No need to draw their attention to it, but you need to know where it is and be able to retrieve it quickly! ;)

[jjoe]

Thanks IFT

That must be why not many people do it or talk about it then; it's the reality triumphing over the perception/myth. I've lot's to learn and this is a good place.

Solo it is or with a similarly wired/experienced buddy.

Thanks again before I go buying the wrong aircraft!

JJOE.

[abgd]

I was taught spiral descents as a standard way to descend rapidly. Power-off, a combination of bank-angle and enough G to stop the speed building up too much... are they really such a bad idea?

To the OP: Try an aerobatics trial flight. It sounds as if you're the sort of person who would enjoy it.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

joe;


Go join the LAA, pop along to your local strut meetings and start finding out about cheaper fun flying. On Christmas morning while everyone else is bracing their livers I will spend an hour aloft in my vintage single seater, before putting her back to bed and joining in the festivities glowing from the joy of the flight and the near frostbite from an open cockpit in December.

SND

[mary meagher]

Hey jjoe.... well done on the license, now you can build experience!

And for the winter in the midlands, GO EAST, young man! if you have been following the weather as you must, you may have noticed the wet comes from the west.

The 152 is cheaper to fly and to rent. The 172 is a great workhorse and can carry three people and a few bottles of plonk, but save it for later. For goodness sake, don't buy your own aeroplane yet, fly the one you know, and go off on adventures. Will they let you go cross country in the rented plane? across the Channel? or touch the four corners of the UK, fly to Kent, to York, to Cornwall (if the weather permits). When you can safely find your way around, buddy up with another pilot to save expense, and go to Europe. There are plenty of experiences waiting there! oola la!

But the last thing to do at this stage is to show off to your friends. Seriously, aeros make them sick. Long flights bore them. And you havn't got the humility of realising just how little you actually know at this early stage. 300 hours? that's the dangerous stage! 800 hours? better. You would have responsibility for the lives of any girlfriends or mates. Don't ask them yet.

Being a solo and licensed pilot is one of the most wonderful feelings that a human being can enjoy. You are a member of a very exclusive club, superior to all those BMW's down there while you look down from your good old spam can. You can fly!

[Shoestring Flyer]

If you have only just got your licence I wouldn't worry too much at this stage about what you fly. You need to gain some experience before you think to much about 'which aircraft' options.
Just get up there and fly !....Anything with wings.:)

[jjoe]

Thanks guys,

I'll quell 'the need....the need for speed':cool: etc and go and do a bit first.:(

JJOE.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sorry Genghis, missed your reply whilst typing- are you available?:O
Thanks.
JJOE

Occasionally, but I don't do aerobatic instruction. I have been known to check AA5 pilots out at Cranfield, but seem to have a queue at the moment.

G

[foxmoth]

A large reason for lack of aerobatic pilots around is the lack of aerobatic aircraft at club level, many people are negative about Aeros because they have not experienced them properly, get someone who knows what they are doing to take you for a trip - I do not mean someone who is trying to show how good they are at Aeros, but someone that knows how to get you to enjoy them, this means a gentle introduction responding to your reaction - I have had some people that I have flown every manoeuvre I can, others that I have stopped with after the first loop, but you need to enjoy it, yes, you will find some passengers do not want to do Aeros, but others will, and with the right training and a bit of experience you will find that you can get them to enjoy aerobatics as well. If you can get to Barton you can come and have a go in the RV, and that I suspect is an aircraft you really will find enjoyable!:ok:

[glencoeian]

Congratulations on the license I just got mine two weeks ago. I did the opposite of you did the majority of my training on the 172 and then towards the end started flying the 152 for hav qualifier etc. It's about 20-30£ cheaper per hour. You'll find the 172 similar just a few differences dual tanks and rpm not over on the right are two that spring to mind. I'd focus on doing ten hours solo like others say, the passengers will come soon enough and one at a time before you build up to a gang of distractions! I'd stay away from aerobatics for a few hundred hours, that alarms me! Have you read The Killing Zone? A sobering read for new pilots but I'm glad I've read it.
You should come up to Oban and try some flying here, very few flat fields to do a PFL in :D

[foxmoth]

I'd stay away from aerobatics for a few hundred hours, that alarms me!

Absolute "bo**ox!", I would ask what qualifications you have for this statement? with the correct attitude and training there is no reason to stay away from Aeros and you will learn more about handling the aircraft than all the "£100 bacon sarnie" trips you can do, with the wrong attitude you can kill yourself on a local jolly!:=

[Meldrew]

Hi Jjoe,
It seems that after getting over the excitment of obtaining your license, you are looking for more challenges, you say that flights from A to B will become boring.
I am suprised that no one on here has yet mentioned instrument flying. Get some instrument time in with an instructor and this will improve your ability to stay safe, even if you do not yet wish to go for the IR(r) qualification.
Best Wishes and congrats,
Meldrew.

[Pace]

I would add to what FoxMoth is saying but differentiate between aerobatics and this new description " advanced upset handling"

For me aerobatics is more of a direction in aviation for those who want to specialise in aerobatics

Advanced upset handling is just that its more about getting comfortable with an out of shape aircraft so you can quickly identify what is happening and rectify it.
It covers all manner of stalls, steep turns, spiral dives, spins, even stall turns and for your aircraft handling is probably the best investment you can make.

I would also recommend some instrument flying as the above are all things which will add to your experience and confidence flying cross country.

Above all enjoy yourself, fly within your limits and the aircraft limits and know and respect what those limits are

Pace

[Cenus_]

Hi Jjoe,
It seems that after getting over the excitment of obtaining your license, you are looking for more challenges, you say that flights from A to B will become boring.
I am suprised that no one on here has yet mentioned instrument flying. Get some instrument time in with an instructor and this will improve your ability to stay safe, even if you do not yet wish to go for the IR(r) qualification.
Best Wishes and congrats,
Meldrew.

This is my intention, I'm waiting for some good weather to get my skills test in (also in the midlands). I intend to start training for IR(r) as soon as practically possible once I've received my PPL. The best bit about flying is the learning of new skills to me :ok:

[mary meagher]

In the US of A, there is no such thing. It is assumed you are qualified to fly at night, but in my day (being a UK pilot) I had to get a UK night rating (at Wycombe Air Dark)

the advantage of this time of year is you have plenty of Dark available; problem in this country is how reluctant the owners of Aerodromes are to have any lights available, let alone turn them on! so if all you bold pilots out there fancy crossing the briny and flying in the land where the Wright Brothers first showed the rest of the world how to do it,its a good idea to tack the UK night rating on to your license.

Rule to follow if the engine stops. Head for the darkest bit and land there....

[jjoe]

Thanks to all posters. very good advice and plenty of food for thought there.
I shall ponder these things over the festive period and see which way to go.

'Get out and do some solo consolidation' before doing anything else seems to be the order of the day.

Thanks again and keep posting, please.:ok:

JJOE

[alex90]

Hi Jjoe,

I think that enjoying new challenges is really key to enjoying light general aviation. Landing at big airports between jets, or doing farm strips are great fun to keep your RT / flying skills sharp.

Below is what i have done over the last couple of years, and have enjoyed every single minute of it - perhaps you can pickup one or two elements that I have done, and see if you think you'd like any of them!

When I passed, after a few hours of local flying, and going to a couple of aerodromes I hadn't been to before to get a feel for what it would be like to fly somewhere new without having someone who knew the aerodrome sitting in the RHS.

I started taking friends up for them to get a taste of what it was like to fly, did a lot of trips to the Isle of Wight for lunches, also quite a lot of cancellations / diversions due to weather, been to Lydd a few times for Sunday carvery which both friends and family really enjoyed. During this time i built up about 10 - 15 hours solo (it goes quite fast). Experienced new aerodromes, and airfields.

I quickly realised that I was becoming a little too comfortable with the flying and I too felt I would get bored very quickly, so I decided to get my cross Channel check, went to Le Touquet which at first was really fun, friends really loved it + by claiming fuel duty back it became quite a bit cheaper than flying to most other aerodromes in the UK.

I then had around 20 hours solo, decided to get my complex training (variable pitch & retractable gear) differences training done, which was great fun. After being used to cruising around 90 - 100kts, even my local area became really fun at 125 - 135kts in an Arrow III. More to think about, how to get the most speed for the least fuel consumption was good fun. The Arrow also had a Garmin430 which I didn't have during training, quite fun to learn how to program and use it, it also had an autopilot (which I didn't use much but taught me some basics that were useful later).

After doing just over 25 PIC hours of flying since passing my PPL, I was able to start training for the IR(r) which was definitely my next step. Being grounded due to clouds at 1000ft knowing that the cloud tops were at 2000ft and bright blue sunshine at my destination was incredibly frustrating. (although my CFI was being perhaps a little overcautious saying the that the IR(r) was only a get out of trouble rating, not something you should use... there has been enough debate on the forum to state the opposite (which I abide by)). Flying into clouds brought a fantastic challenge, using instruments effectively, accurately and rapidly was fantastic! I also did a couple of aerobatic lessons which I really enjoyed. Upset training was invaluable, and the barrel rolls / loops / stall turns / half cubans was so much fun! I couldn't recommend it highly enough. I wanted to get the rating but the cost was a little prohibitive unfortunately (Cambridge Aeroclub in an Extra 200 fantastically named G-GLOC).

After doing quite a bit of instrument flying, I decided to do my night rating, as that was definitely the next step for me. Great fun, although challenging at times to see the runway / find aerodromes with lights / willing to accept a plane. I only logged around 10 hours of night flying, so I cannot call myself anything other than novice in the area, but I found it enjoyable.

I then took a (rather long) holiday in NZ, where I had to do some training before they would let me hire a plane. I had to do a minimum of 5 hours, 2 of which had to be below 500ft, and two of which were valley training. I also did around 10 hours of proper mountain training (ie 10k' peaks all around + landing at Milford Sound...etc... incredibly fun). This was an incredible challenge. Although in the vicinity may not be easy to do, I know they have programs in France. This really sharpened my hand flying skills, being able to predict turbulence, rotors, updrafts, downdrafts, escape routes, map reading.

Hope this helps,
Alex

[Pace]

und 10 hours of proper mountain training (i.e. 10k' peaks all around

Alex you have touched on something which is an incredible experience for any pilot.

Jump a flight to Geneva, get yourself up to Meribel in the french Alps and try some Jodel flying on Skis

The strip at Meribel is half the length of Courcheval and just like a launch ramp.
Steep down hill and launch over the most spectacular scenery!

Even land on top of a glacier. Coming back its a committed to land scenario with the high altitude. You land on the upslope and then its on the throttle to power yourself back onto the top.

you can do a French mountain rating or just go for a flight with an instructor! Truly spectacular at this time of year
Meribel is 400 M and 5600 feet ASL :E

Pace

[9 lives]

Aerobatics training from a qualified instructor for new PPLs is excellent. PPL solo self taught aerobatics, or much worse with Pax is a really bad idea.

As your total piloting time doubles, you will look back at the previous half time with alarm, realizing how much you did not know, and how close you came some times. I still do... Listen to the advice here to take it easy, and grow your skills and experience with learned caution.

I was taught spiral descents as a standard way to descend rapidly. Power-off, a combination of bank-angle and enough G to stop the speed building up too much... are they really such a bad idea?

A spiral descent is fine, if flown within limitations, and without an increase on speed on the way down. They differ from a spiral dive, which is an unstable maneuver, with alarming increase in speed, and likely increase in bank angle and G. The instant you realize you are in a spiral dive, initiate recovery, there is no time to fool around there. Follow your training.

While flying spiral descents with "enough G", how are you measuring that? All certified aircraft have stated G limitations, but nearly none are equipped with G meters. Have a good plan to understand how you will not exceed limitations. Angle of bank is a good way during turns, as long as you're paying attention. Pull outs offer much more opportunity to overstress a plane, and the angle of bank trick won't help you...

[piperboy84]

Pace :Jump a flight to Geneva, get yourself up to Meribel in the french Alps and try some Jodel flying on Skis

What engines are they equipped with ? purely out of interest, I've always fancied throwing some skis on the Maule.

[Pace]

here is a nice video

https://vimeo.com/4213951

[N-Jacko]

PB, nearly all of the alpine schools use Jodel D140 Mousqetaires on R-F (or similar) skis.

The D140 has an O-360 with fixed-pitch prop. Flying side-by-side in summer they have less drag and better cooling than my MX-7-180, so they climb a bit faster, but they can't land or take off quite as short. I think in winter or with little 8.50x6 tires on both, the climb rates would be about the same.

Almost all of the glacier flying in Europe seems to be on Rosti-Fernandez skis, or on Megève's improvement thereof.

There are also plenty of privately owned 150 Super Cubs on skis in the Alps, and a few Maules, though mostly 235s and at least one 420. So at a guess a MX-7-180 driver would have to pick take-off slopes with care.

[N-Jacko]

Pace,

Sorry for nit-picking, but it's Courchevel, not Courcheval.

Also, the French "qualification montagne" cannot be entered on a UK part-FCL licence as a "rating" until the DGAC presents its conversion report to EASA (due before April 2018). So for the time being, we just get a nice letter in French (I had to think about that...).

That said, the qualif montagne is fun to do, is valid for life, and the aforementioned French missive is accepted in lieu of the Part-FCL rating by all relevant EASA member states.

[jjoe]

Thanks all posters and esp. Alex90 for a comprehensive to-do list.:ok:
You sure pulled all the stops out.
I need to shake off the cobwebs soon after the hols.!
Definitely do not want to be an early gave-up statistic- too many of those already, apparently.

JJOE.

ps I'll not be looking for aircraft ski's just yet but looks amazing!

[Maulkin]

Hi jjoe,

Congrats on the printed out bit of A4 :)

As others have said, there's a whole load of things you can do. I've also recently passed (~80h total now), and so have been in a similar situation recently :)

It all depends on what you want to do. I started my aerobatics/tailwheel rating, and also want to get my IR(R) rating at some point. If you're after some general improvements, then I'd recommend a couple of things:

Pop along to a GASCO safety evening. It's really interesting, and you get a copy of Clear Skies, which is a book about "I just got my PPL, what the hell can I do now?". It also counts for AOPA wings credits - another useful thing to use as a checklist of things to do
Have a look at Advanced PPL: post-PPL course (http://www.andrewsfield.com/courses/ppl-advanced/) . Even if you can't make it to Andrewsfield, it's perhaps a useful syllabus that an instructor could help with
Look at what ratings you're interested in. I did night as part of my PPL, because I didn't want to get caught with 30 mins before sunset, and 20 mins away from the airfield. Similarly, I want to do my IMC, because I don't want to get stuck somewhere in the air, with lowering conditions all round. I'm doing my aerobatics because I had a trail lesson and was simply hooked! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9dxxE-ooWw if you're interested)

[Ridger]

Advanced upset handling is just that its more about getting comfortable with an out of shape aircraft so you can quickly identify what is happening and rectify it

This is very good advice Jjoe - flying normally afterwards will rapidly become easier too, lowering your workload.

All I'd add is pick wisely! Please don't be seduced by doing such training in an inappropriately punchy machine (e.g., XA-42, Extra 300, Su29) as while all three are incredible they're very expensive.

Do it in a Pitts / Firefly / Bulldog type machine with a guru next to you / behind you.

Alan Cassidy at White Waltham is excellent, Cambridge aero club has a good rep, as do Ultimate High. I think Charlie Kimbell is around the Midlands and he is also excellent. https://www.aerobatics.org.uk/training/directory is a useful resource.

[jjoe]

Thanks Maulkin and Ridger- both very useful posts.

My main concern is that (maybe unduly and peculiar to new ppls or just me!) unless you like 'going places' to visit, land, hang around, burger ,this fly-in, that meet, and hope the weather co-operates for a 'day out' (which I can't yet get excited about, and also couldn't bear the 2-hour nav trips during 'training':bored:) then a lone (or with consenting passenger) beat-up-the-sky-sortie every now and then would clear the cobwebs and wake you up!:ok: in the local area or further afield then go home- what's wrong with that?

Is this unrealistic/cuckoo-land/soon wears off kind of stuff?

I'm aware it all starts with what kind of flying you want to do (and even 'Why did you learn to fly?') but I couldn't live without some upside-down stuff as and when!

I've seen the 172 groups with couples going to above-mentioned rallies etc and I've seen guys with open-cockpit vintage types- I can see a desire for both.

Bulldog superb but complicated maintenance regime with the spar-mod etc.
Pup 150 would tick most boxes but are these still reasonably economically viable?

Sorry if I've rambled on again.:rolleyes:

JJOE

[Ridger]

then a lone (or with consenting passenger) beat-up-the-sky-sortie every now and then would clear the cobwebs and wake you up! in the local area or further afield then go home- what's wrong with that? Is this unrealistic/cuckoo-land/soon wears off kind of stuff?

Nothing wrong in that at all - the flying you describe is largely what I do due to being too busy to do much more than 1-2 hours a month. I recommend you fly more regularly than this! I hope you'll forgive me in reiterating what others have said regarding passengers; you need a few PIC hours under your belt first as pax management can be demanding.

It sounds to me like you 'just' need to find an aircraft that you simply just enjoy flying - if you can find that machine then even 10 mins in the circuit in winter becomes enjoyable. My own opinion is that that aircraft will probably have a stick rather than a yoke and very possibly a tailwheel although I found both the Bulldog and YAK-52 to be sweet handling machines too.

My opinion has been formed by flying Chipmunks, Jodel, Cubs and then Pitts S2A. All four (for me at least) are just a joy to fly for the sheer hell of it. While not a beginners machine (although nowhere near as tricky as some would have you believe), the Pitts was the one that enthralled me every minute between start up and shut down.

I suggest you draw up a shortlist of types you think might be fun and try to get a ride in each and form your preferences from there.

One last thought - I've never flown one but the Fournier RF-4 has a fantastic reputation as a fun machine to fly - single seat but aerobatic and cheap to run. Not the norm for a 'motorglider'. Worth considering a share in one to hours build.

[foxmoth]

1-2 hours a month. I recommend you fly more regularly than this!

One advantage of Aeros is that you can do a lot in a short flight, in 20 minutes airborne you can take off, climb to height, fly a couple of sequences then back to land and in that you will have done more handling than someone who flies a three hour flight into France, so if you can only fly a limited number of hours this will be far more worthwhile.