Thailand Downgraded to Category 2 by the FAA

[InvestigateUdom]

Thailand has been downgraded to Category 2 by the FAA.

ICAO and the FAA appear to have finally had their fill of the corruption, incompetence and accident rate "overseen" by the Thai Department of Civil aviation. First ICAO censured Thailand, and now the US FAA has downgraded the country's aviation to match that of most of Africa.

What this means: US passengers will be warned that aviation on Thai-based airlines is unsafe. Bookings will be impacted. More significantly, Thai-based airlines in the US will not be able to expand or alter their schedule or equipment in the US unless their rating is returned to Category 1. (The US FAA tends to review a country every 5-10 years.)

We, SLF, thank the pprune community for your support. These safety findings and the limitations they put on the expansion efforts of Thai-based operators would not have been possible without you.

Information:
The crash and aftermath of Orient Thai's One-Two-Go (http://investigateudom.com)
ICAO Red Flags Thailand (http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/travel/thailand-aviation-safety/) June 2015
The FAA Downgrades Thailand (https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19814) December 2015

Also you can search pprune for Orient Thai & One-Two-Go to read of a single (tiny) carrier's history of crashes and near misses.

[GlobalNav]

It would be worth staying aware of who code shares with Thai.

[WillowRun 6-3]

ICAO's thematic initiative, under the banner of "No Country Left Behind," is targeted at significantly improving -- if not improving maximally -- the compliance of all signatory States to the Chicago Convention of 1944 with the Organization's SARPs and related safety-related programmatic initiatives. Let's hope there isn't any back-sliding or back-tracking when someone whose ox has been gored by this action, claims that the Organization's action improperly leaves Thailand behind.

[Dannyboy39]

I don't work in safety regulation, but how can Thailand be red flagged, yet North Korea and Indonesia not be?

[WillowRun 6-3]

I don't work in safety regulation, but how can Thailand be red flagged, yet North Korea and Indonesia not be?


In fact, Indonesia is campaigning - if you can call it that - for a seat on the ICAO Council (tantamount to a governing board of the Organization) in the next Council election cycle; at the recent 2015 World Aviation Forum at ICAO world hq in Montreal, individuals apparently affiliated with Indonesia's civil aviation authority were dispensing literature promoting their country's civil aviation sector and swag too (including a really nice USB drive).

[GlobalNav]

Why not Indonesia and North Korea?


From the FAA website: "Under the International Aviation Safety Assessment (IASA) program, the FAA determines whether another country’s oversight of its air carriers that operate, or seek to operate, into the U.S., or codeshare with a U.S. air carrier, complies with safety standards established by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)."

[India Four Two]

It would be worth staying aware of who code shares with Thai.

Thai is a member of Star Alliance, so potentially any of its members. I've been on Thai flights that were code-shared with United and Air Canada

[Sqwak7700]

FAA can't red flag Indonesia, they buy too many Boeings. :}

[crippen]

Our beloved leader and General is not going to be pleased with this!:(

[alainthailande]

A tiny bit off-topic in a aviation forum I'm afraid, but this certainly will fuel the anti-american demonstrations that have been recently staged after comments made by a US diplomat (ambassador itself?) about Thailand's ridiculous lese-majeste laws.
"No Escape" scenario brewing up slowly in Thailand?

Back to topic: Thai Airways International has been on the edge of bankrupcy for quite a while now. Way too much money wasted in corruption, kickbacks and free flights for the "elite" plus friends and relatives. Although they still probably are much safer to fly than the local LCCs, I avoid them like the plague. Their service sucks anyway.

[crippen]

Prayuth Orders Immediate Improvement Of Aviation Industry
Prime Minister Gen Prayut Chan-o-cha said today he has ordered immediate improvements of the country's aviation industry after the industry was downgraded by the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

Upon his arrival at Suvarnabhumi airport before dawn today from the Paris global warming summit, Gen Prayut said he was aware of the FAA’s downgrade two days ago and has ordered immediate improvements in the industry.

They were ordered to look into which points that needed to be resolved, he said and asked that the media stopped to expand the issue further.

He also blamed the present dispute in the country in which many people were quarrelling each other and wasting time on useless issues that do no good to the country and economy.

He asked all to stop and let relevant agencies to resolve the problems.



PM orders immediate improvements of aviation industry - Thai PBS English News

[Capot]

They were ordered to look into which points that needed to be resolved, he said and asked that the media stopped to expand the issue further.Translated; Order an investigation, meaning do nothing, and suppress the Press reporting of it, to make the issue go away.

But those who are suggesting Thailand has been selected as an easier target than others who should be downgraded as well, with Indonesia and Nigeria sharing the lead in that field, are right.

[InvestigateUdom]

The comments about Thai commercial aviation being compared to North Korean and Indonesian commercial aviation by the US FAA are humorous, but in a very sad way.

Point attention elsewhere, distract, sideline the conversation.... That's seems to be the way.

In this case, someone has decided to suggest North Korea (North Korea??!!) and Indonesia should be downgraded ahead of Thailand. Just to know, the US FAA agrees with you. Indonesia is already category 2 and North Korea is not rated and therefore North Korean commercial aircraft are not allowed to enter US airspace.

Thailand was downgraded to category 2 by the US FAA and red flagged by ICAO for cause. Deal with the facts. Stop looking for someone else to blame.

[peekay4]

Yup, Indonesia was downgraded to Category 2, since 2007. But Indonesia's new President is determined to improve transportation safety, so getting back to Category 1 (full ICAO compliance) is currently one of the highest priorities for the Minister of Transport.

Earlier this year Indonesia signed a "Memorandum of Understanding" with the US to modernize the country's aviation sector. An FAA team has been working with the Indonesian regulator (DGCA) over the summer to identify key areas for improvements.

Indonesia's bid for a seat on the ICAO Council is also seen as a good thing -- it is another reason they are working hard to improve air safety.

So despite huge problems Indonesia is seen as a country that's trying (albeit slowly) to improve things. They're not going to get there overnight. They have a ton of cultural, structural and bureaucratic issues to solve.

Unfortunately Thailand seems to be working backwards at this point, due to the domestic political situation.

[RAT 5]

And what is the stance of EASA & EU? It would be odd if they did not support FAA. However, if they arrive at a different conclusion they would need to explain why. Equally, I wonder if FAA discussed this with their worldwide counterparts first. It would not be good CRM, sorry politics, to drop such a bombshell out of the blue.

[ExXB]

No doubt the EU will add Thailand to their list in the next issue. They have a dilemma as that will ban all Thai airlines from operating to/from the EU.

They could give an exemption for TG for some/all of their aircraft, but this would require an evaluation of TG's procedures.

Of course TG is an airbus (and Boeing) customer.

[tdracer]

Yup, Indonesia was downgraded to Category 2, since 2007. But Indonesia's new President is determined to improve transportation safety, so getting back to Category 1 (full ICAO compliance) is currently one of the highest priorities for the Minister of Transport.
Garuda presently operates into the US and code shares with Delta (I believe Garuda being the only Indonesian operator currently operating into the US). So can I assume the FAA gave them some sort of exception based on their record?

[GlobalNav]

If I am not mistaken, the the operations of operators from countries designated by the FAA as Category 2, may not expand operations beyond the level at the time of that designation. The FAA does not deny continuation of the operations already approved.

[peekay4]

As far as I know, Garuda does not currently fly to the US, nor does it operate any codeshares with Delta. (All the codeshares are operated by Delta).

I.e., Garuda sells seats on Delta-operated flights to/from the US (between Haneda and LAX/SEA), but Delta does not sell seats on Garuda-operated flights.

Garuda is keen to resume flights from Jakarta to Los Angeles on Boeing equipment, so Boeing is a key partner in getting Indonesia back to Category I status.

Thai Airways is a Star Alliance member, and as GlobalNav mentioned, under the rules Thai can keep flying to the US and keep its existing codeshares, but Thai may not expand services to/from the US.

[tdracer]

I.e., Garuda sells seats on Delta-operated flights to/from the US (between Haneda and LAX/SEA), but Delta does not sell seats on Garuda-operated flights.
You appear to be correct about Garuda not currently flying to the US - I'd flown them out of LAX previously (and I know they used to go Bali/Honolulu) but apparently had to stop.
However, Delta does sell on Garuda flights. You can book Delta Seattle/Jakarta and the second leg is operated by Garuda.

[peekay4]

However, Delta does sell on Garuda flights. You can book Delta Seattle/Jakarta and the second leg is operated by Garuda.
I meant in the context of codeshares, since there is no interline restrictions under FAA IASA.

E.g., the Delta leg from the US to Haneda are codeshared with Garuda. E.g., DL636 is also sold as GA9506.

But the Garuda legs are not sold as Delta codeshares, so the second leg from Haneda to Jakarta will not have a DL flight number.

[reynoldsno1]

If I am not mistaken, the the operations of operators from countries designated by the FAA as Category 2, may not expand operations beyond the level at the time of that designation. The FAA does not deny continuation of the operations already approved.
You are correct. Unfortunately, the Thai "Prime Minister" does not seem to appreciate that the main issue is with the regulatory oversight, not necessarily with the aviation 'industry' at large. It was only a few weeks ago that the head of the civil aviation was sacked, and replaced by a functionary who had once worked at the Ministry of Transport a few years ago :hmm: She stated that it would all be put right in a 'few months'.:8 This was probably be seen as having 'addressed' the issue. :=.

[peekay4]

So are there any Thai airlines actually flying to the US and/or codesharing with a US airline currently?

If not the Category 2 designation is kinda moot, at least until EASA follows this move.

Thai Airways used to fly to a few US cities and had codeshares with United at one point, but I believe they've dropped all of those routes?

[SRS]

A few years ago 5 out of 6 DGCA inspectors were Ex Thai airways pilots. OT regularly cheated on aircraft logbooks, and almost all operational rules, like duty times, aircraft limitations, etc.
It was clear that the DGCA inspectors knew what was happening.

[Bangkokian]

The comments about Thai commercial aviation being compared to North Korean and Indonesian commercial aviation by the US FAA are humorous, but in a very sad way.

Point attention elsewhere, distract, sideline the conversation.... That's seems to be the way.

In this case, someone has decided to suggest North Korea (North Korea??!!) and Indonesia should be downgraded ahead of Thailand. Just to know, the US FAA agrees with you. Indonesia is already category 2 and North Korea is not rated and therefore North Korean commercial aircraft are not allowed to enter US airspace.

Thailand was downgraded to category 2 by the US FAA and red flagged by ICAO for cause. Deal with the facts. Stop looking for someone else to blame.I know your posting history and your history of advocating against OTG and you've done some very valuable work. I've been reading it here and elsewhere for years.

That said, don't kneejerk like this. The overall point is valid. India just got upgraded to category 1 this year. The FAA is (in theory) a standards-based organization, not an advocacy organization, and it carries a lot of weight. I don't want Thai carriers to be safe but Indian carriers to be not-safe because of politics. I understand you care primarily only about Orient-Thai and the authorities overseeing its regulation, but some of us have to fly other places sometimes.

Anyway, keep the fire burning, but choose your battles better. No one here is a paid representative of the junta trolling to distract, no matter how often you see that pattern on FB and wherever else.

----------

As to the larger issue, what's actually an interesting indicator of here in Thailand are probably the limits of power of the junta in the face of more powerful political figures. I doubt they care very much about aviation safety and more than they care about "reform before democracy" but that's true of every government here. What is telling, though, is that this is the *third* international media embarrassment on this exact same issue after which nothing has been accomplished.

Typically, after any international criticism that's got sustained political weight behind it (so, anti-trafficking: yes, Burmese being blamed for every high profile crime: no) there's a brief period of local protest by wealthy Bangkokians and their relatives and maids at an embassy that follows the hilarious "stay out of are buzines thailand is not you're country we r thai go home (etc etc)!!!" pattern followed by these people getting back in their American and European cars, driving home and saying nothing while actual action by the people in charge behind the scenes to ameliorate the situation is taken in conjunction with the international party who is applying the pressure. Even if someone doesn't believe this on its face, evidence of it was clear in the wikileaks cable dump for Thailand. Everyone here talks to US officials about everything all the time, and most of them play both sides of the fence (as in most countries) to stay in power.

Just for example recently, doing *anything* about trafficking - and there has been actual progress there - though, as usual, in fits and starts, involved a lot more shady people and major industry downstream blowback than addressing these aviation concerns which the government already theoretically controls. One wonders, then, why this particular event didn't follow the pattern of public yammering and private action when they absolutely knew for months and months and months that it was going to end in, effectively, a set of sanctions and/or bans by two of the three largest economies in the world.

Hell, just yesterday the same government gave the Chinese the finger on the high speed rail deal over the terms of the deal and has put that relationship on ice, which was what the US and EU wanted, in addition to the trafficking actions and other things. It's not as if they're disinterested in remaining relevant politically and economically in the world and this one was much easier to address than some other issues the international community is pissy about (see the money laundering concerns and so on).

Anyway, I suspect something will be done now that all the options are exhausted!

[ZFT]

I'm quite amazed at all the anti TG comments. Ignoring the so called corruption and nepotism issues which are issues that are dragging them down commercially, their fleet is modern, their service in comparison to many, many carriers is far superior and the (now renamed CAAT) oversight issues are not of their making.

The major issue over the ease at which AOCs are handed out is again not of their making. IMHO both TG and BKP are being unfairly caught up in this and both will unfairly suffer.

The likes of the LCCs that principally operate out of VTBD won't be overly impacted, yet they are the real problem.