B.A. FCO on checking on pilots every 20 mins.

[Shadowpurser]

Ok I hope this is in the right place - it was either here or in the CRM forum, so if this gets moved I understand.

I don't know what the rules are at other companies but at BA one of our FCO's since 11/9 is cabin crew must check up on pilots every 20 mins via the interphone (hope I'm not upseting everyone there by revealing an FCO - but I don't think this one is particularly a nation secret).

Now this isn't always possible for one reason or another, as some CC are better at remembering or are more bothered than others. Sometimes the out of sight - out of mind situation can occur. OR we can be BUSY serving pax that pay all our wages on a flight that is full to the rafters.

The situation I am going to recount to all now is this - B737-400, ATH / LGW, 3hrs 30mins flight time, 5 crew, 42 in club(most of who are returning from a 6* package tour/cruise that included all the bells and whistles), full in traveller, one rather excentric (sure that's spelt wrong) purser(not myself) not used to doing this route on a regular basis, and a very experianced crew memeber also working in club with the purser.

Having done one of these flights carrying these particular pax I can tell you - THEY ARE DEMANDING - and rightly so... they have paid a lot of money for their holiday, they started by going out to Cairo on B777, then cruised round the med, eventually ending up on our diddy A/C on the way home - everything taken care of - lot of lords/sirs/company directors etc etc. When they get on the look on their faces says it all and the words "Is it club!!?" start hitting you.

With a load of 42, if you are not used to this service, and with this particular purser doing it HER way despite the suggestions of her no 4 (other club crew member) the service went very slowly - looking like it wasn't going to be completed on landing, much to the upset of the PAX - and they let the crew know it!!!!

Now the situation has been set for you all you may be able to see that the crew may have been busy/distracted/etc. But I agree no excuse not to call the flight deck to check if the pilots are ok from time to time. BUT every 20 mins IS NOT POSSIBLE! I know since this one came out we DO have to make more of an effort but every 20 mins is stupid and it does not happen. On this particular flight if the letter of the law is followed it would result in 10 - 11 calls to the flight deck not including "other" inclidental calls. Last time I did this particular flight I think I called the flight deck 4 times because we were just flat out. Pilots were fine totally understood - not a problem, we were busy as long as they got fed.

However on this particular day the captain in question was not happy with lack of attention. So much so that when drinks were finally handed in by the no.4 and after the F.O. wispering "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry" to bemused no.4 at the door, the captain shouted from the FD to the galley "do you know what's written in FCO blah blah. I could have been dead! I could report you!". The no.4 totally taken aback by this and said that she was very dissapointed at the captains lack of understanding (or words to that effect) and that if he wanted to report her he could.

With getting abuse from both sides of the galley the girl was and still is very upset about the whole thing.

THE POINT IS.

Rules are there to be followed, but sometimes we have to flexible. If I rang the FD every 20 mins I'd be universally hated for interupting all the time. We do ring when we can - but in exceptional circumstances we are sidetracked or disracted by the people paying our wages because they are unhappy or expecting a service and we want them coming back for more.

I appeal for a bit of understanding, humility, and flexibility. If we haven't called for a bit - DO CALL US - we don't mind, you are as much part of our jobs as the PAX are. But ramming this FCO down our throats and threatening to report us is not the way to go about things.

Do other airlines have this rule - is it followed strictly?

What do other B.A. pilots think of this FCO? DO you want to be called EVERY 20 mins?

If so....GREAT! We are testing new products at the moment and reducing crew levels. These tests are timed and a monitor is present on board. When we do a go-around (which is now happening already without calling every 20 mins) it will all be noted down.

I'm not bloody minded. I want the company to succeed and I will do my level best to ensure that. I do what I can to get things done so we can all get home in time for Eastenders and not cost the company any more money. Surely more go-arounds is not going to benefit anyone?

FINALLY

You may like to hear the captains side of this story, I know I would. Well....I know he's out there and does frequent this site form time to time. So please tell us....correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Facts can be distorted, exagerated, mis-told and I'm sure we'd all like to hear it. Not to have a go or riddicule you but just to hear your reasons for acting the way you did.

I'm not anti-pilot- in fact...far from it!!!, I just want to increase understanding between the two communities so we can all work together for a better happier work environment and a more profitable enjoyable airline.

PHEW!!!!! Well that's more than enough typing for me people.

Thanks to all who read this and keep smiling!!!!:cool:

[maxy101]

It does sound overly harsh, however I think I can see both sides. At the risk of stirring, I wonder what the point of you calling us anyway...It's not as though anyone can do anything if you don't get a reply........:confused:

[Bigpants]

Common sense and better communications would have made this flight safer and more pleasant for all concerned.

The Captain I suspect was probably brassed off because he felt abondoned/thirsty/hungry and generally neglected by his own crew.

At night when your flight crew might be tired a 20 minute check makes sense hence the FCO. In the current environment a flight that did not answer the radio for 20 minutes might find a couple of fighters alongside or worse..... So checking on the flight crew at sensible intervals is a must.

If cabin crew are ineffective they have to be given feedback and if necessary retrained. The same goes for flight crew which is why so many well run airlines have excellent safety records and others do not!

This brings me back to the main point which is safety based. The FCO is there for a reason and subject to discussion with your flight crew you would be safest sticking to it. If that means that the passengers do not get the service they feel entitled too then feed it back up the line and either get more staff or get rid of those that can't cope. Harsh perhaps but par for the course for flight crew.
Regards BP

[Shadowpurser]

3 hours is inexcuseable!!! I can do it once on a 40 min LGW/MAN!!! So yes you are totally right to do what you have to do!!

With reguards to obeying the letter of the law, I don't want my actions to the result in unnessecary costs for the company or to annoy my collegues.

Thanks to your rerplies guys keep em coming!!!!

[Ghostflyer]

First, the Captain sounds like a horses a**e, and you are right, as they say in the military, 'flexibility is the key to air power (or happy crews)'.

Emirates has the rule not for post 9/11 reasons but because on long night sectors it is not unknown for both flightdeck crew to fall asleep. An american aircraft once over flew its destination with the crew asleep.

If there is a concern from the Cabin Crew that they may miss a call, ask the flight deck crew to call you or ask if you may call at 30 minute intervals. On a 330, the flightdeck nearly always call the cabin crew at night coz the call buzzer in the cockpit frightens the bjesus out of them. As always, the key is communication, if you know you are going to be busy, load shed.

Having said that, how often do you actually have the situation where there is no one in the galley? Not that often really. It only takes 10 seconds to call and then even the most obnoxious capitano will be appeased. Some crew manage to call or visit the flightdeck even on the busiest flights at regular intervals, some wouldn't crack it even with only 1 passenger in first.

Ghost:)

[Firm Touchdown]

Communication comes in many forms. All of the following indicate that the flight deck crew are alive. Seat belt signs off, seat belt signs on, passenger announcements, etc.

It would be reasonable to assume on short busy flights that the pilots are alive if the above items occur.

I am sure however that a courtesy call occassionally would be much appreciated.

And without any communication from the cabin, what is to say that all is well down the back!

[lekkerste]

Shadowpurser, on busy flights I've often been asked 'are you happy with 30/40 minutes?' and of course the answer is always 'no problem'. So maybe it was a lack of communication? Big brutha, you are so right. 2 to 3 hours through the night without a call ( and all pax asleep) is far from unusual. I'm amazed when this happens, especially on a 2-crew flight. You would think self-preservation would mean this wouldn't happen.

[Hand Solo]

Whilst being called every 20 minutes is a bit extreme (and indeed a nuisance and distraction on some of our super-short sectors), I think this captain may have been wound up by previous experiences with some crews. In my experience there is a significant but growing minority of cabin crew who pay no attention to this particular rule and excuse themselves with the "Well if they want something they'll call us" line. The rule is not about getting a nice cup of tea, its about making sure both the guys are still functioning normally. If I'm dying of thirst then I'll call you, but on some flights I've noted the lengthy period during which there's been no indication from the flight crew that we were still alive and still nobody has bothered to check, even when the flight wasn't busy. Some crews are excellent and check at suitable intervals, even on busy flights, but others really just can't be arsed and its they who need a good kick up the backside before they decide they can't be bothered to comply with any of the other safety rules.

[Slickster]

Agree with Hand entirely. Out of sight out of mind is very much the order of the day on many flights now. It's not about getting a cup of tea; pre 9/11 I was happy to go and get one myself. Ironically enough, pre 9/11 I was checked on more than I am now. Incidentally, there was always a requirement to check on the flight crew every 20 minutes; quite why phoning is harder than opening a door I don't know! As I say, out of sight, out of mind.....:rolleyes:

[Shadowpurser]

Just did a chock a block LGW/LED/LGW today - just told pilots to give us a call if they needed anything and we hadn't spoken for a while as we were busy. Worked fine, I called at least 4 times and they called us a couple too. I would say approach your crews before the flight - tell them you will call if they don't - then at least they know what to expect. It's not fair if you are stuck for hours on end. I wouldn't like it and for damn sure wouldn't put up with it - so neither should you!!!!

[411A]

Seems to me that the idea of...we'll call you if we need anything...works quite well, nearly all the time. Are "some" crews so insecure that they need their respective hands held?
Good grief, off to the looney bin with these guys!

Wake UP. Leave the cabin alone to do their job...they are trained professionals...leave 'em ALONE.

Works GOOD, lasts a long time!!

[HotDog]

411A, good job you're going to fly freight. If you ever get off the ground!

[Firestorm]

Could the Captain not have made an occasional call to check that the cabin crew were alright, and not experiencing something horrific?

It sounds like he was just having a bad day. I don't understand his attitude - it does sound rather unreasonable to me.

[canberra]

i think youve done the right thing by putting this on the web. anyone remember the ba747 that almost landed on the hotel at heathrow? i remember reading the report in pilot and the court reports(im not going to have a pop at the captain) there were problems between the flight deck crew and the cabin crew, according to the reports ive read it got so bad that the flight deck crew didnt get so much as a glass of water off the cabin crew for the last few hours of the flight. somehow i dont think that is conducive to flight safety. as a final point cant cabin crew use the chirp system, or alternetively does ba have flight safety officers like the raf that you can go to in confidence?

[bascally]

Firestorm,

I think the point was that contact was not being maintained, all the previuos messages explain this to death.

If there was something horrific happening in the cabin then surely theres even more reason to keep the flight crew informed?

[Shadowpurser]

Yes we do have the chirp system and we do all have the confidential safety reporting system as well. What the girl in question chooses to do is up to her. As I've said before we only know her side of the story and there are always TWO sides.

HOWEVER....In B.A. (well the cabin crew side anyway) the culture is to own your own feedback. So I would express my thoughts and feelings and what the situation was in the cabin proffesionally at the appropriate time i.e. after the flight - just the two of us. If after a frank discussion I felt that there was a problem on his part and he refused to recognise it potentially causing a furture safety/CRM problem, I would inform him that I will informally approach the on duty management at the time hoping that the situation could be resolved without having to resort the filling out of reports etc etc. I believe people respond to PEOPLE and learn from PEOPLE..... not paperwork. If all that failed!!! Well.....I'd have to put pen to paper. :(

What would you do in this situation?
Do other companies have the 20 min rule?
What are other companies policies on this kind of situation?

[Jetdriver]

At Monarch the same general instruction exists. A member of the cabin crew should check the flight deck every 20 minutes.

Common sense dictates that a general average of 20 minutes is in order rather any hard and fast rule. Usually this is done by the cabin crew member whose duties include offering a drink at those intervals. Some times it will be the senior cabin crew member. In reality it might be any of the crew.

The check provides for a number of things. Obviously it keeps the flight deck crew hydrated. It also provides a check to ensure there are no problems on the flight deck. It also provides an opportunity for interaction betwen the Captain and the crew as to the general situation in the cabin. It provides a short respite for the cabin crew from the cabin environment. Hopefully it provides the opportunity for a little C.R.M even if it is only to listen to someone elses problem ( on either side!).

It sometimes happens that the check is not followed as well as it might be. Sometimes this is because of a particularly busy cabin situation, or maybe there is a new cabin crew member who needs time to settle into the role. Like most things, it requires patience and understanding. Indeed before it manifests itself as a problem, good management practice would be for the Captain to liase with the senior crew member to see if anything can be done to modify the situation. A little tact and good manners usually goes a long way to a quick resolution.

I suppose the short answer is "Comunication".

( though possibly not quite as short if you spell it with two "m"s !)

[Sick Squid]

Shadowpurser,

Excellent post, and a very well explained argument from your perspective.

First, let me deal briefly with the skippers response. Not good, and no excuses other than those mentioned above. Do remember that BA is by no means alone in having individuals like that, however: all airlines recruit from a bell-curve of the available population, and individuals wil always inhabit either end of that curve. To put this in proportion, the worst ever example I have seen of human interaction was in AN Other company, when the skipper went into a rage, and demanded the presence of the girl who had just served him his meal. His complaint was....."Feel this! Go on feel it! See what I mean? This cutlery is ABSOLUTELY FREEZING COLD! Replace it at once...."

I don't think any further comment is necessary, and I'm sure every airline in the World, every office building, every shope and every establishment where people interact has at least one person who would fit that mould. Where you employ many people, the law of averages kicks in... but remember, the largest part of the bell curve is the centre, and they don't make the headlines, or the gossip.

As to the crux of your point, I've always since geting my command had a chat with the purser/CSD beforehand and worked out some scenario for the checks. We do know when it is busy it is hard to make the time, and as Jetdriver says above, it is an "average" of 20 minutes.

I do feel that it is important that you make the time, however, and ensure that the atmosphere is such that both sides of the door are aware of the needs of the other. It isn't a tea-and-coffee check, after all, it is an "Are you all OK?" check, just that the T-and-C tends to be appended. A "Bit busy just now guys, just making sure you're alive, if you need anything can I get back to you when it calms down, but place yer orders now" is absolutely perfect, in my book, and the best one I've heard yet, (on a busy AMS, I think it was.)

If you ever fly with me on the Scarebus say hello, and I'll give you a badge! :)

£6

[HugMonster]

BigBrutha - while 3 hours is really not acceptable, there has to be a reason for it. I can think of several possibilities. (a) The CC were rushed off their feet the whole time (b) One of the flight deck crew had really upset them and they were making a point (c) They'd all had their throats cut (d) etc.

Before it goes anything like that long, I would suggest that you are obliged by all sorts of concerns to call THEM and find out what's happening, not sit there counting the minutes and working out if you're going to report them.

You say they don't thank you for getting them home safely. Do you thank them for looking after you on the way home? For keeping your passengers happy and contented?

We're all part of the same team. I detect an element of "we're the important ones, they're there to look after us and they should be grateful for the opportunity to do so" in your post. If I am reading too much into it, then I apologise, but that's the way it came across to me. Perhaps other communications of yours have been similarly misinterpreted in the past, hence your problem and you could perhaps examine how you communicate?

[Shadowpurser]

Cold cutlery!!! LOL!!!! UNREAL!!!!
:D

[BOAC]

Shadow - surely it is better for the c/c to intitiate a check when they are at a convenient point rather than have the f/d call at a time which could well be inconvenient with regard to the service? What do c/c feel about this - we are quite happy to call YOU every 20 minutes or so but unless we know what is going on in the cabin we may well choose the wrong time! That's where the communication bit comes in. The 'locked door' implementation has not been well handled in 'our' lot.

Instances of 1hr 45 between 'checks' are not unusual - do you think that is acceptable or safe? In the case you quote, do you know what liaison there was between the 'eccentric' purser and the captain? Was this particular captain perhaps having to get out of his seat every so often to make sure the CABIN CREW and passengers were still alive in the cabin due to the lack of contact? Why did the 'very experienced crew member' not pick up on this? Did he/she speak to the purser about it? Are the crew 'happy' to fly with this particular 'eccentricity'? If c/c CANNOT follow company ORDERS, what steps have they taken to report this with regard to crewing levels? As Sick Squid says, it is an 'average' of 20 minutes, and no-one would surely object to slippage either way on that? 3 hours, however - even 1:45 - though, is unaccepable

A few more questions for you to follow up?

[stormywx]

Just a couple of comments...

1. I'd be asking why the tech crew after 3 hours had not tried to contact their cabin crew... exactly how did they know if something had not occured in the cabin?

2. 20 minutes seems a little too often. What exactly was meant to happen to them.... hypoxia (when the cabin crew are still standing), both suffer massive heart attacks at the same time, terrible case of food poisioning, a hijacker somehow gets into the locked FD without anyone else seeing, murder/suicide?

3. What would the CC do if they found both pilots dead? Have they been trained how to squark 7700? Do they know how to operate the radio? Do they know simple things like how to engage the autopilot onto hight/heading hold? No use them finding you and then saying "fantastic, what now exactly".

Cheers

[Captain Stable]

The chances of both pilots being found dead with no outside agency involved is so remote that it really is not worth while spending valuable cabin crew training time on them handling it.

As for the communication being both ways, I have to agree. The idea of two pilots sitting there tapping their feet for 3 hours wondering who they were going to talk to when they got home about this awful service from the back is not really safety-minded. If I had no communication from the back for, say, 45 minutes, I would buzz them.

"Are they behaving themselves? Any problems? Appreciate you girls are probably very busy back there (having checked passenger numbers) but if we promise not to grope you, any chance of a drinkie when you've got a spare moment?"

[screwdriver]

Jet Driver/Hugmonster/Capt Stable
Ah... the voices of reason.

[bugg smasher]

In my experience, the cabin crew work their @$$e& off on every flight, and especially on the short haul sectors, to require them to show up in the cockpit every 20 minutes or so with tea and toast, and that on the thinly veiled excuse of making sure the pilots are awake!? Well, I guess it’s time for some in the BA cockpit to retire to less stressful, somewhat more over-staffed environs.

If you are unable to ensure the integrity of your own waking consciousness for anything more than twenty minutes without the attention of a harried flight attendant, my pampered friends, how could you possibly hope to operate the ultra-long haul routes? Perhaps we should direct the traveling public to somewhat more wakeful air carriers.

The self-indulgent effrontery of some posters on this thread is beyond belief, I am appalled.

[411A]

Bravo, bugg smasher, excellent. I find that far too many flight deck crew meddle in the cabin business, when they have far more important things to do.:rolleyes:

[Captain Stable]

Nobody is demanding tea and toast every twenty minutes. Nobody has, as far as I can see, shown "self-indulgent effrontery", and nobody has shown the least desire to meddle in cabin business, and particularly not at the expense of more important matters.

What most people are talking about is maintaining CRM, maintaining a coherent team and maintaining communication across a closed door. All these are important elements of flight safety.

Whatever the type of flight, long-haul or multi-sector short-haul, it is important that the pilots do not become dehydrated, as can happen very quickly. It is important also for the business that the flight crew are kept aware of what is going on in the back so any particular passengers' needs are taken care of. It's called providing a service. The flight crew need to know what sort of special requirements passengers may have - how is the passenger in 24C going to affect things if we need to evacuate? What do we need to order from the handlers at the far end? How is that new hostie bearing up under the pressure?

The captain is in command. He needs to know what's going on in his team.

Keep communication going. Lack of it was a contributing factor in the Kegworth accident.

[bugg smasher]

Okay, perhaps “self-indulgent effrontery” was a little strong. But gimme a break friend, surely you can be responsible for your own re-hydration when the back-end crew is overloaded, a bottle of water beside you will take care of that very nicely.

The cabin crew are well aware of the passengers’ special needs, that one in 24C will have been seated there for a good reason, all of this having been properly briefed before departure. If anything should change, they will certainly call you if a decision on your part is required. Otherwise, communications can be kept to a civil non-distracting minimum, the opposite being very bad CRM indeed. You do your job, they do theirs, if there is a need to communicate, it will happen.

As for that new hostie bearing up, she should be assigned to knock on the Captain’s hotel room door every twenty minutes to ensure he is getting the proper rest; you never know, he just might have fallen awake.

[Hand Solo]

Sadly thanks to the locked door it is becoming the case that they won't call us if something that needs our input occurs. Thats the whole point of this thread. I've lost count of the number of times I've rung back (yes, I am capable of doing that) because 'they' couldn't be bothered to call, only to discover they'd omitted to mention fairly important things we need to call ahead to company for. Its no good letting certain individuals (and its always the same ones) pass you the info at 2000ft on the approach when they ring to say the cabin's secure. Its about half an hour too late by then. Communicating with the flight deck, even if its only to say 'No specials', is as much a part of their job as ours is to communicate with the cabin. The problem is that a few individuals on the other side of the door have decided to shirk their responsibility in this area. That minority needs reminding that company rules are there for a reason and its not their job to decide which ones they'll follow and which they won't.

[HugMonster]

bugg smasher, I am afraid that it was almost exactly your attitude to this matter that was prevalent in BM prior to the Kegworth accident. The philosophy was "You get on with your job, let them get on with theirs". The result? They were too reluctant to inform the flight crew that the fire had been seen in the other engine.

They learned from that incident. I suggest you do the same before you fall foul of the same problem.

Nobody has suggested excess communication here. Non-distracting, certainly. And that passenger in 24C? Are you sure nothing was left out of the briefing? Are you sure you've been told everything you need to know? Do you know about all the specials on board? Quite certain?

Part of their job is full communication with the flight deck. Part of ours is full communication with them. And it's an important part of the job. We're all part of the same team.

Would you like to argue your side of the discussion without the sarcasm and hyperbole next time?

[bugg smasher]

The subject of this thread, HugMonster, is “BA FCO checking on pilots every 20 minutes”. Your hijacking of the Kegworth accident for the purposes of arguing your point of view is not only objectionable, but entirely suspect as well.

Suffice to say that it is the only accident on record where a mistaken crew action (shutting down the good engine) correlated with a false positive (stabilized indications on the damaged one), a simultaneous event that mistakenly confirmed the correctness of their actions. As UK AAIB report 4/90 states concerning the pilots, “no flight simulator training had been given, or had been required, on the recognition of engine failure on the electronic engine instrument system or on decision-making techniques in the event of failures not covered by standard procedures”.

In that accident chain, lack of communication between the cockpit and the cabin was the least significant of events that lead to that terrible tragedy, and the only one I am aware of where cabin crew input may have caused the captain to question his own decisions.

If you wish to open another thread on Kegworth, or cabin crew response to emergencies in general, please do so.

[HugMonster]

"Suspect"?
"Objectionable"?

The subject of this thread is communication between the cabin and flight deck. In the case of the Kegworth accident, that communication failed when it could well have made the difference between life and death.

There was a serious lack of CRM. Not only were the passengers' concerns not listened to, but the general feeling among cabin crew in the company at the time was that it is not up to them to interfere.

Further, the flight deck crew did not ask the cabin crew for any input they might have had.

Lack of checks by cabin crew on how flight deck crew are getting on is (partly) a problem in itself. It is also symptomatic of another problem, which is an incipient breakdown in communication and crew cooperation.

I have not hijacked anything. I am using a perfectly valid example, one well-known to most readers, to illustrate why your attitude to inter-crew communication is, imho, severely lacking and why it is important that this communication be actively encouraged.

Now, do you want to argue the points raised, or are you only interested in a slanging match?

[JIM JAM]

Hear,Hear, Huggy! With you 100% on that one! After I've made coffee/tea for the cabin crew & discussed the plans for that evening during the turn-round its normally myself thats doing all the ''dinging'' as I'm normally bursting for a 'physiological break' most of the time!!! Hats off to the CC I say ( had to say that-the other halfs a Purser and the best one that I know! ;)

[snooky]

I think that Hand Solo is talking the most sense here, and that a minority need reminding that they are not the ones to decide which company rules are followed and which are not.
Indiscipline will need to unnecessary grief.

[Captain Stable]

bugg smasher, just to point out that I raised the spectre of Kegworth first. ;)

[bugg smasher]

Yes Captain Stable, I did happen to notice that, a valid point to be sure, judging from some of the posters’ comments it appears that much has changed in your company’s cabin procedures since that accident. I was merely surprised by HM’s apparent opinion that Kegworth is the sole driving force behind current BA CRM policy, an event that in and of itself brooks no questioning of your procedures by outsiders. But then again, HM is an argumentative fellow, nice to see him join in.

That you are collectively able to discuss the subject on a forum such as this impresses me, clearly a culture where CRM principles are likely to prevail. Many companies would be hiring IT experts to electronically track down the bounders disclosing company ‘secrets’.

I would like to refer to the original post, in particular; “the captain shouted from the FD to the galley "do you know what's written in FCO blah blah. I could have been dead! I could report you!.”

Granted, most likely an isolated event, probably the result of the captain in question finding out he’s not the father of his own children (poor bugga) or some such, however, it is indicative of a slavish, unquestioning adherence to procedure, a discussion which has unfolded in interesting ways over on the “Retraining” thread.

[Captain Stable]

Let me just say that I am not a bmi pilot, nor was I at the time of Kegworth.

Nobody that I have seen on this thread is suggesting a "slavish, unquestioning" approach to company rules and procedures. I would, however, suggest that company Ops Manuals need to have some form of encouragement contained therein to aircraft crews to talk to each other, and suggest a frequency for contact. This need is even stronger with the advent of the closed FD door.

The captain you mention was clearly having a bad day. His attitude, if reported correctly, stank on the day. We all have a responsibility to inter-crew communication. He clearly thought that such responsibility was all the CC's. If nothing has been heard from the back for a while, then various ways in which a busy CC could be approached have already been suggested, and I don't propose to repeat them.

(The captain who complained of cold cutlery is just asking for them next time to have been left in the ovens for a while. ;) )

CRM demands good communication. I make a practice, whilst on Sim checks, of asking the CC what they have heard and seen in case of engine failure. It would rarely do much, but there may just be that one occasion when it makes all the difference.

Whilst in the cruise, provided they are not too busy down the back, I am very grateful for the occasions on which someone else joins us on the FD, even for just a couple of minutes. Since almost all of them are bright, fun, funny (and attractive - let's not deny it) and caring individuals, they bring us drinks, often whatever food might be available, and a little conversation.

I don't demand any of the above. I am not entitled to expect it without fail every 20 minutes. It just improves my quality of life just a bit when it happens.

What is, however, essential, is the communication. If they're rushed off their feet, then, as you say, a bottle of water will provide for most of my most urgent needs. But if they're that busy, I want to know they are. I can help them with it - extend the flight slightly by not asking for direct routing, so they have a chance to get all the service done, etc.

I try my best to look after my crews. I accept that they also do their best to look after me. To that end, without communication you have nothing.

[Mowgli]

I am in agreement with Capt Stable, Huggy and Flat Spin. To Bug Smasher I would say "How many Kegworth style accidents would you want to then justify the flt deck/cabin crew concept of CRM.?"

It is more than just preventing accidents, although that is the most important factor. A good team environment will make the whole operation less stressful, more efficient, less tiring and provide a better atmosphere for our customers.

Now that we have the locked door it is more important than ever that we maintain the bridges between the CC and flt deck. It would be so easy over time to settle into our separate worlds and satisfy ourselves that there's no problem because we arrived safely once again.


IMHO 20 mins is too strict, I would prefer a ruling allowing judgement on the part of the CS and the Capt. If both sides communicate then a busy or difficult flight for the CC could be anticipated by the capt.

[bugg smasher]

Yes indeed Flat Spin, round n' round till she hits the ground.

Captain Stable, it becomes impossible to keep a thread going if you insist on being so damned sensible all the time!;)

[HotDog]

Who checks on freighter crews every 20 minutes??

[BOAC]

Hot Dog - are you locking yourself in to Guantanamo Bay when you fly? Frightened the freight will storm the flight deck?

Paranoia rules!

[Captain Stable]

bugg smasher, please accept my most sincere apologies :( :p I shall endeavour to do better next time :D

[Tom the Tenor]

Captain with Big ego wanting to show off his new Big watch to as many of the crew as possible? :D

[HotDog]

BOAC, my question was tounge in cheek. Where is your sense of humour? :rolleyes:

[BOAC]

Obviously TOO twisted!

[Shadowpurser]

WHOAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a can of worms eh?!!!!!!

Sorry I've not put my 2p's worth back in seeing as I'm the topic starter. My comps been knackered - then i went to ORD for 10 days AND I'm going to Greece for a week in 3 days time as well.

WHAT IT IS TO BE INDEPENDENTLY WEALTHY!!!.

I will read all these replies on monday and reply to some of the points trown up etc, but I'm far too tired and jet lagged now, and I actually have to WORK for 1 day tomorrow before my days of and leave start again:D

Thank you for all the comments guys all very constructive and humourous!!!

[Shadowpurser]

Well here I am back to put across the cabin crew side of things again and answer a few replies. Also just done my annual CRM course and a big hi to the guy taking it!! You now know who I am and what a little tinker I can be!

Where do I start?

The most sense being talked on here I would say is that WE NEED TO FLEXIBLE - on both sides of the door.

Every 20 mins is too much, but I can appreciate the need for you guys to stay awake on night flights. However, if you think you are going to fall asleep while at the controls should you not first tell your collegue sitting next to you that this is the case or tell the cabin crew that this is the case so as they DEFFINATELY ring you all the time. BUT if you are so tired that you may fall asleep - are you fit to fly? Informing your collegue that your feeling sleepy is surely GOOD CRM? Being on short haul this isn't a problem we encounter as time changes etc are not too serious but surely you have rest breaks etc? Not having done long haul I can't really comment so excuse me for my lack of understanding, but what I have said here is surely common sense.

Surely the way to go would be to agree a time with the SCCM before you take off e.g. 30-40 mins, they can then tell you if this is ok with them and you also have established clearly what you expect. The SCCM can also tell you what they are expecting in the cabin as well. It alwasy amazes me how every time I enter the F.D. the picture is virtually the same, but when I return to the cabin the picture and atmosphere is always different. As on the day in question the PAX were particularly demanding and having done a flight with this group before can assure you for 4 hours THERE WAS NO LET UP with constant demands and pressure on us from them. In my time as CC I have never encountered a group of PAX so demanding, but we had no idea they were going to be like this until we took off . This shows you that all the best intentions before you take off can be totally knocked for six after.

On the point of was the captain having to get up out of his seat to check on the crew (BOAC I think came up with that), what was wrong with the call bell? If the captain doesn't trust his crew enough to use the call bell or if just because there has been no contact for more that 20 mins all their throats had been cut, then I'd say there were some issues there that need to be addressed.

The Kegworth incident came up on this thread. I can see where this came from but I don't really want to confuse the issue. That also shows the importance for CRM and what can happen if things do go wrong. I do have a different thread for a subject similar to that SO WATCH THIS FORUM.

The thing that really got me about this whole situation is the way the cap chose to feed it back to the cabin crew. I can understand it's frustrating behind the door cut off from all those sexy crew (male and female) and feeling hungry and thirsty, but shouting at us through the door is not the way to feed back your unhappiness. As an SCCM we are trainned to give feedback at the correct time and in the correct way. I would hope that as commanders of the aircraft you are trainned in the same way and that feedback from pilots to crew would happen in this fashion instead of guns blazing from you seat to the cabin in earshot of your co-pilot and PAX. Also should this situation arise I would suggest talking to the SCCM first as they are the ones running the show and paid to take the flak for the shortfalls.

Well I think I've covered most things here - sorry it's taken so long to reply but I've got a damn good tan in the mean time!

Finally on the subject of CRM it is something close to my heart as now ex other half (sniff sniff) is flight crew and this gave me a unique perspective from both sides of the door as I often heard many a horror story about bad crews and bad captains. So I have made it a bit of a mission of mine to break down as many barriers as possible and make everyones life and jobs easier, more fun, and most importantly SAFE.

That's it from me for now. I may not be around for much longer as B.A. at Gatwick is all but in the toilet at the moment, and one man can only to boost morale so much before it starts affecting him. So from next month I may be cruising round the carribean pouring T & C instead of appologising for lack of everything at LGW.

Happy flying all and thanks for your input - hope this makes flying more enjoyable for all.

[flapsforty]

Shadowpurser, another interesting thread started by your good self. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thumbs.gif

At KLM the rule has always been to check every 30 minutes.
Another SOP with us is that captain and purser have a wee chat at the start of each flight. Initiated by either & never skipped.
Invaluable opportunity for both to get a feel for the other's way of thinking, to exchange relevant info and to agree on the hows & whens.
It can take as little as 30 secs with people who know eachother, and as long as needed in case of expecting complications.

On a personal note; in all my years of waitressing I have never had a problem with this stuff. I stick to the 30 min rule religiously. Even on the busiest flights it is more a problem of "making time in your head to check on the cockpit" than of making actual physical time.
The oft expressed excuse: "the pax are the ones paying our wages and the pilots will just have to wait" can also become a convenient crutch and an excuse to avoid the mental gear change needed to see to the pilots. Change your own mental attitude slightly, consider the cockpit-check just as important as the pax's well being (just for different reasons) and it all becomes far easier.

Slickster, funny that huh? How it has become harder to check the cockpit post 9/11. I recognise what you describe. I have noticed myself being reluctant to phone the cockpit while I always thought it was fun to stick my head round the door and have a quick look or a chat. For me it has to do with not knowing and not being able to see if I am disturbing the pilots when I call. Stick head round and you immediately know if it is a bad time or a good time. Phone and you always feel as if you are possible being an ill-timed pain in the neck with your inane "are you blokes all right" or "want something to drink".

BigBrutha, on long haul our pilots are scrupulously good at thanking us for looking after them. And it's always lovely to get your bag carried off the crew bus and to get the first pint served with a "thanks for the excellent service on board mate".
On short haul they never say thanks, apart from the female pilots who consistently make the effort.
To my shame I have never yet thanked a pilot for flying me safely. I wil do so from now on, thank you for bringing that up.

[Pandora]

It seems increasingly so that BA's FCOs are there to give the company a stick to beat the flight and cabin crew with if they aren't followed to the letter, but to be honest I am generally happy with the checks that are carried out by the shorthaul CC I work with. Every so often I fly with a crew, (usually at 5:30am - maybe they haven't woken up yet?) that fail to make me drinks and spit and curse at me if I venture into the galley. But 99 times out of a hundred the crew can't do enough for me and the captain. So in return I try and do the best I can for them. Its a CRM thing. If they are cold, it's no problem for me to try and warm them up (in a entirely proper sense, you understand ;) ), if they have a desperate need to contact company (wheelchair, out of hours, etc) I can ACARS them. It works both ways. I have no problem with discussing who dings who before we lock ourselves in, and with good CRM it shouldn't be a problem at all. Shadowpurser and I have corresponded before on the subject of CRM and with the other CC contributions on this thread I am glad to see that it is possible, notwithstanding our very different training, for every member of an aircraft crew to have a similar train of thought. Just a sad PS however. On Sept 9th I submitted my application to be a CC CRM trainer. Since Sept 11th BA feel they don't need any more, even though before Sept 11th they were desperately short of them.

[flyingdutchman]

Dear Pandora,

Did you list karate as one of your skills ?

If not, then it is no surprise that you weren't needed to instruct CRM.

This year, I kneed, elbowed, headbutted and karate chopped and then performed a perfect Mrs. Bobbitt - and that was just because the flight deck asked for a tall decaf latte, in a glass, with semi-skimmed milk and one brown sugar... :D

ATB!